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tbs fanatic
09-03-2008, 10:07 AM
So what do you think of McCain picking Palin as his VP choice? Personally, I think it's going to derail him.

ticky
09-03-2008, 10:33 AM
I think it's more then a little insulting that the republicans chose a woman who has been governor of a small population state like Alaska for less then a full term as an answer to Hillary Clinton. It's like saying "Hey, she has ovaries, she's the same."

TimothyBFan
09-03-2008, 11:13 AM
I agree. I guess I am old fashion in that even tho I work (at home fortunately) I believe a woman's family should come first and foremost. She has such young kids, the youngest only a few months old with Down Syndrome and now a 17 year old daughter who is pregnant. I believe she has some pretty big issues she should be dealing with in her family and it would be hard for any woman or man to deal with that when she will be all over the US and foreign countries so much if elected.
Sorry if that offends anyone:oops:--but I am very proud of my children and the reason I believe they are turning out so well is because my husband & I have been hands on parents their whole lives. I know for a fact that they appreciate that also--they have told us that more than once. :)

tbs fanatic
09-03-2008, 11:44 AM
I agree. I feel so sorry for her daughter who is now known WORLDWIDE as that '17 year old pregnant teen'. I have a 17 year old son and he's mortified if I say something he considers 'silly' to his friends.

sodascouts
09-03-2008, 12:35 PM
I personally am pleased that a woman has been chosen for the VP slot. I think that sexism is the last "socially acceptable" prejudice for a lot of men. Sexist jokes still get laughs, but tell a racial joke and you're raked over the coals (rightly). All it takes is a look at the Democratic primaries to see what I'm talking about (and this is coming from someone who preferred Obama over HRC. Just because I wanted him to win doesn't mean I was blind to the sexist overtones of many of the anti-Hillary brigade).

I respect your opinion, Willie, regarding families - but I know that many people would not think twice about the father running for office. Is it really fair to hold women to a different standard? Perhaps you would also argue that the father should stay home, but most people would not, I'm afraid. Again, the "socially acceptable" prejudice.

Why do we assume she is a replacement for HRC? If McCain had picked a man, would we assume he was a replacement for someone?

I know it must be hard for the daughter, and I feel for her. Sadly, the state of politics is that anything is fair game, it seems. :( Cheney's daughter became a political tool; the Bush twins' escapades were front-page news; Clinton's brother Roger became known as the "embarrassing black sheep." What a shame. Of course, this is hardly a recent development. Remember Jimmy Carter's brother? Yikes! And I remember reading that John Adams, one of our early presidents, had an alcoholic son who was used against him.

There was a time when no one would ever pick a VP who had a pregnant teen. That person would be considered "tainted" and "condoning immorality" by not disowning the daughter. Isn't this a sign that McCain is not so judgmental? Many would consider that a good thing.

I think I'm going to move the thread, though. The "wonder at the powers that be" forum is for the sad stuff, and regardless of what you think of Palin, I don't think she's as bad as natural disasters, fatal illnesses, and school shootings!

I realize it's confusing because politics is indeed serious business - most of the time. ;)

ticky
09-03-2008, 01:22 PM
I personally am pleased that a woman has been chosen for the VP slot. I think that sexism is the last "socially acceptable" prejudice for a lot of men. Sexist jokes still get laughs, but tell a racial joke and you're raked over the coals (rightly). All it takes is a look at the Democratic primaries to see what I'm talking about (and this is coming from someone who preferred Obama over HRC. Just because I wanted him to win doesn't mean I was blind to the sexist overtones of many of the anti-Hillary brigade).


I agree that it is wonderful that a woman has been chosen to be the VP candidate. My beef is with the woman chosen. There are so many other potential candidates more qualified who would have been better choices such as Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison from Texas or Governor Kathleen Sebelius from Kansas who were both on the short list and have more experience but were NOT ever voted Miss Alaska.



I think I'm going to move the thread, though. The "wonder at the powers that be" forum is for the sad stuff, and regardless of what you think of Palin, I don't think she's as bad as natural disasters, fatal illnesses, and school shootings!

I realize it's confusing because politics is indeed serious business - most of the time. ;)


Too true. Although I suppose you could consider the Bush administration as a definite tragedy *grin* ...just kidding

sodascouts
09-03-2008, 01:52 PM
I agree that it is wonderful that a woman has been chosen to be the VP candidate. My beef is with the woman chosen. There are so many other potential candidates more qualified who would have been better choices such as Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison from Texas or Governor Kathleen Sebelius from Kansas who were both on the short list and have more experience but were NOT ever voted Miss Alaska.


I see your point, but I think Sebelius would be more problematic for a McCain ticket as she is a Democrat. Stranger things have happened, though!

Hutchinson was definitely a viable candidate; I think her age worked against her. McCain is criticized as "too old" by many and Hutchinson is only 7 years younger than he is. Since many VPs want to run for President as well, she'd be 73 when her turn rolled around, making her less likely to extend a Republican presidential streak should McCain win both this election and the next one. Such things have to be considered alongside factors like experience. If all goes as the Republicans hope, Palin could actually be the first woman president. How's that for irony?

And while Hutchinson was never Miss Texas, she was a prom queen and University of Texas cheerleader. Where do we draw the line at what is an acceptable derogatory stereotype - the ditsy, vapid cheerleader or the ditsy, vapid beauty pageant winner? (And yes, her prom queen/cheerleader status WAS used against Hutchinson in campaigns, just as Miss Alaska is used against Palin now). Honestly, I tend to shy away from stereotypes of any kind... although I admit I knew a few cheerleaders in high school who fit into them. ;)

ticky
09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
And while Hutchinson was never Miss Texas, she was a prom queen and UT cheerleader - where do we draw the line at what is an acceptable derogatory stereotype - the ditsy, vapid cheerleader or the ditsy, vapid beauty pageant winner? (And yes, her prom queen/cheerleader status WAS used against Hutchinson in campaigns, just as Miss Alaska is used against Palin now). Honestly, I tend to shy away from stereotypes of any kind... although I admit I knew a few cheerleaders in high school who fit into them. ;)


Too true that we need to avoid stereotypes in any case. My point was more towards the fact that she was an attractive candidate and yes, young, in comparison to McCain, and my guess would be that this was more of a deciding factor in her being chosen then her ability to do the job.
You're right about Sebelius being a Democrat :blush: my bad. But she was voted by the White House Project as one of the "8 in '08" as eight best female presidential candidates for 2008 along with Hillary Clinton, Hutchinson and Susan Collins of Maine who is also a republican and might have been an interesting candidate as well. Her fellow Maine senator, Olympia Snowe, also a republican was also on the list. Palin was not on the list. This doesn't mean she's not capable of doing the job, it's just that there were so many good female possibilities that seemed to have been passed by for a woman who's evident qualifications don't seem to be as obvious.

TimothyBFan
09-03-2008, 02:58 PM
I voted for Hillary Clinton. I think any qualified woman should run if given the oportunity but I also feel that any WOMAN OR MAN should take their family into consideration first and foremost before making that decision. I don't think a father of a down syndrome baby and an unwed teen would be a good candidate either. Need to take care of home matters first. I agree with you Soda that their are a lot of double standards still even in these current times and I guess to extent I have been guilty of that also. I guess what I am trying to say is that I probably wouldn't have minded her being picked if I thought she was ready for the job at hand and her private affairs were in order. We have had presidents in the past with younger children but I don't recall any with these circumstances.

I feel that a big problem today is the fact that to many parents are just to busy with other things and careers instead of taking care of the most important assets we have for our futures. I can't think of a job that will take a parent away from a family more than that of a president or vice president of this nation.

Does this make sense or do I sound like I am rambling on?:eyebrow:

Maleah
09-03-2008, 03:10 PM
Personally, I really like Palin and McCain's choice of her as his VP. I agree with a lot of her opinions/beliefs/stands on different things. I'm kinda tired of hearing the whole lack of experience thing though because Obama himself has very little experience.....his own VP said that about him when he was running his own campaign. But oh well.....whatever.....I hate politics lol

Brooke
09-03-2008, 03:59 PM
I like McCain's choice also. From what I've heard of her she will be a very good VP. I can't imagine wanting the job and feel she has her work cut out for her, what with such a young family and the problems already lined out, but she's been doing it for awhile, so I guess she knows what she's up against.

I really don't care much for politics either, like Maleah.

ticky
09-03-2008, 04:19 PM
I feel that a big problem today is the fact that to many parents are just to busy with other things and careers instead of taking care of the most important assets we have for our futures. I can't think of a job that will take a parent away from a family more than that of a president or vice president of this nation.

Does this make sense or do I sound like I am rambling on?:eyebrow:

I agree with you here, I myself get to be a full time Mom but we really have to work at it. Cliffy works for the state as a chemist and makes a decent living, but we budget tightly each month. If I were working it'd be the same because of the cost of child care so I get to be a stay at home mom. In a perfect world we would all get one of the parents to stay home with the kids, but it just can't always be. I have a good friend who's a stay at home Dad and he's a terrific Dad! I also have friends with grown kids. Both parents worked full time through out their childhoods and the kids were in constant day care. The kids are now all in college, two with full ride scholarships, and all are really terrific kids. Sometimes there's no telling what makes a kid a terrific person (having been a social worker I can tell you, sometimes it's just a complete mystery as to what makes one kid bounce back from the absolute worst possible childhood situation to become incredible person and another raised with the silver spoon become a murderer or rapist)

Parenting is, with out question, most important job a person could do, yes, but it's not always possible in the current world to make it the only job a person can do.
As for the President/Vice President issue. Kids learn from example too. Can you think of a better role model then a parent who's the President/Vice President? Especially if they are the FIRST of something (Ethincally diverse, Female, Physically Challenged etc...)
Sarah Palin does have some home issues she should probably tend too, but I can't tell another parent how to raise their kids. All I can comment on is her abilities to do the job she's a candidate for, and I do that with debate and my vote. *grin*
(by the way.. I love to debate *grin*)

tbs fanatic
09-03-2008, 04:33 PM
The thought of Palin possibly becoming President is seriously scary. McCain's age makes that thought a real possibility. That idea alone is enough to turn me off.

Wildthyme
09-03-2008, 04:56 PM
The thought of Palin possibly becoming President is seriously scary. McCain's age makes that thought a real possibility. That idea alone is enough to turn me off.

I think the question everyone who is considering voting for the McCain/Palin ticket needs to ask themselves is "can you accept this woman as president"? And from everything I have seen and read so far the answer is a resounding no! She has virtually no experience on the national or international level. Until July of 2007 she had never even been outside of the United States! She has been governor of a state with the 48th lowest population for less than two years and was mayor of a tiny town of 5500 people for six years before that. And as far as education, all she has a bachelor's degree in communication from the University of Idaho. How can anyone consider her even remotely ready to run this country if something happens to John McCain (which is a very strong possibility given his age)????

Freypower
09-03-2008, 07:17 PM
I need to emphasise that I'm not American and therefore my perspective is different.

The choice left many Australians shaking our heads. Not because she's a woman or from a small state, but because again the Republicans feel that they have to kowtow to the evangelical Christian anti-abortion pro-death penalty (why don't they see a contradiction there)? pro-gun pro-creationist only-travelled-outisde-US-twice (and that was to visit American soldiers) brigade. Surely there are people in the Republican party who don't hold these views? Where are they?

As what Americans call a 'liberal' I don't like the Republicans' extreme conservatism. This is the party of Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt, and they seem to have moved further and further right ever since Nixon (who on foreign policy I think some of them would see as a dangerous liberal).

The hypocrisy of Republicans who preach abstinence and then when their own child is what they would call 'promiscuous' turn around and say it's OK defies description. If it had been a Democrat they would have leaped on it with such alacrity it would have been scary.

So for me it's her beliefs which are the concern, not her family situation.

If I could just say that I am a huge Obama fan, as you've probably guessed, but I can understand why many Americans remain sceptical about him.

Maleah
09-03-2008, 07:27 PM
The hypocrisy of republicans who preach abstinence? What would you have her do? Disown her daughter because she made a mistake? I believe in abstinence as well, but that doesn't mean that people don't make mistakes and I certainly wouldn't disown or criticize someone who made a mistake. And what is wrong with republicans beliefs? I'm republican and yes I believe in abstinence, yes I'm against abortion, yes I have a gun.......I don't sit here and put down democrats opinions and beliefs and I'm tired of people from either side putting down the other. For ME...it's OBAMA's beliefs that are scary...but that's just my opinion. Regardless.....this is all opinions and it would probably be a good idea for me to stay away from this thread, as I'm in the minority and the arguments just aren't worth it :lol:

ticky
09-03-2008, 07:28 PM
Be who you are Maleah, We love you!

Freypower
09-03-2008, 07:41 PM
The hypocrisy of republicans who preach abstinence? What would you have her do? Disown her daughter because she made a mistake? I believe in abstinence as well, but that doesn't mean that people don't make mistakes and I certainly wouldn't disown or criticize someone who made a mistake. And what is wrong with republicans beliefs? I'm republican and yes I believe in abstinence, yes I'm against abortion, yes I have a gun.......I don't sit here and put down democrats opinions and beliefs and I'm tired of people from either side putting down the other. For ME...it's OBAMA's beliefs that are scary...but that's just my opinion. Regardless.....this is all opinions and it would probably be a good idea for me to stay away from this thread, as I'm in the minority and the arguments just aren't worth it :lol:

But Republicans from what I understand preach abstinence only when it suits them, and then as in this case suddenly they become very quiet about it. Of course she's not going to disown her own daughter.

As for 'what is wrong with Republican beliefs' absolutely nothing, from your viewpoint. This is the first time I've expressed my own political opinions here for a long time, so please note that I don't think I am 'putting down' the other side if I think that my views are as valid as theirs.

The thread was always going to stray from 'what about the effect on her family' to 'what about her beliefs' at some point. I probably should not say any more either, because I am not American, and I don't live there, so am not qualified to comment. I repeat that by American standards I am reasonably 'left wing'.

sodascouts
09-03-2008, 07:56 PM
I'm with you, Maleah - please don't be worried about expressing yourself. We're all friends here!

I think we have to be careful before we summarily dismiss the beliefs of people who disagree with us. They have reasons for their opinions - their own life experiences, their own religious beliefs, their own values. It's upsetting how many people write off the other side as "ignorant" - "immoral" - "hypocrites" - etc. No party has the market cornered on righteousness; no party consists entirely of evil people out to destroy the world.


anti-abortion pro-death penalty (why don't they see a contradiction there)?And yet you don't seem to understand why the reverse could also be seen as a contradiction. I think we as a people should try to see where others are coming from.


pro-gun pro-creationist only-travelled-outisde-US-twice (and that was to visit American soldiers) brigade. Surely there are people in the Republican party who don't hold these views? Where are they?If you look beyond the stereotypes, you'll find them. But some people are content to put everyone in a box and label it "R" or "D" - then condemn everyone with the "wrong letter."


But Republicans from what I understand preach abstinence only in regard to DemocratsHuh? What makes you think that?

It seems to me you've bought into a lot of stereotypes. As has been said earlier, that's not a good thing.

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. There are good people on both sides of the aisle. Both Obama and McCain seem to be decent, capable men (to me, at least). They are both trying to do what they feel is best for our country. Their supporters are only trying to get the person elected who they feel will best govern our country. Why are we so quick to condemn others when we all want the same thing - a prosperous, safe, and healthy country?

TimothyBFan
09-04-2008, 08:15 AM
I told myself yesterday that I wouldn't contribute to this topic again-I lied! Just a couple more points I'd like to make here.

I am neither Republican or Democratic. I was a Ron Paul supporter at the beginning, then became a Hillary supporter. Now I just don't know what to do. I want who is going to do my family and this country the most good. I can tell you right now, with a Republican in the office the last 8 years, we are not doing well at all! Almost everyone I know is suffering with the high prices of gas, rising utility cost, unaffordable insurance and the high prices of groceries and everything we need to just survive. In the area I am in-there isn't a week that goes by where a factory in the area isn't putting hundreds out of work because they are closing down. Economic issues weigh heavy on the area and most of the people I know are not as concerned with who believes in abortion or gun control but who is going to keep us working and possibly give us a break for a change. I think the war is also a big issue in the country.

That being said-why not give another party a chance to fix the mess we are in. Quite frankly, I am not a big fan of Obama either. I don't know if he will be good for this country but at least it is a change. To be honest, for the first time since I've been old enough to vote, I am debating on whether I will or not. I know when it comes down to it, I will go to the polls and cast my vote but it is something that I will have to think about long and hard first. When someone like my brother, who is a devout Republican, says he will vote Libertarian, that scares me.

Prettymaid
09-04-2008, 09:30 AM
Has anyone's opinions changed after hearing her speech last night?

tbs fanatic
09-04-2008, 11:49 AM
No, I have not changed my opinion but I did think she did well last night. The only weirdness, I thought, was parading out her daughters boyfriend. Sort of saying 'Oh yes, and here is the wonderful young man who knocked up our daughter' - it was just weird. I might add I thought he looked very uncomfortable. Other than that though I thought she was a good speaker.

sodascouts
09-04-2008, 12:34 PM
I agree with TBS Fanatic. Overall good, but the boyfriend moment was weird.

Prettymaid
09-04-2008, 02:04 PM
I agree with TBS Fanatic. Overall good, but the boyfriend moment was weird.

Some articles are now calling him her fiance.

Brooke
09-04-2008, 03:25 PM
I thought she did great, too, other than the boyfriend moment.

DonFan
09-04-2008, 04:02 PM
I was VERY impressed by her speech. Regarding the boyfriend: Palin is really in a bind there. Anything she does is going to earn criticism. She could've ignored him and not included him, but I think having him there shows that regardless of the timing of the pregnancy, they love each other and are planning to stay together and raise their baby.

sodascouts
09-04-2008, 05:05 PM
That's true. If she hadn't shown him, you know there'd be people out there saying "What, is she ashamed of the father of her grandchild?!" There's always something.

TimothyBFan
09-05-2008, 01:52 PM
Just something silly that was sent to me. Where do these people come up with this stuff? They don't seem to take anything in politics seriously and both parties get bashed pretty good here.

http://www.peteyandpetunia.com/VoteHere/VoteHere.htm