Glenn and Joni Mitchell

[sodascouts]

The other day in chat, Freypower informed me that Glenn had an affair with Joni Mitchell around 1973/1974, and that she even wrote two songs about him! Was I the only one who didn't know this? I think it's pretty cool. I can see how he would inspire a woman, though. ;)


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[glenneaglesfan]

Wow, I didn't know that. I have wondered about it after reading a quote in the Complete Greatest Hits booklet where Glenn mentions an acoustic guitar tuning that Joni had shown him. I mean it would have been hard not to under those circumstances - I know what it was like in the mid seventies lol! As for the songs, my imagination took a leap forward some time ago and I have often wondered if Joni was thinking of Glenn when she wrote 'See You Sometime', which is one of my favourites.


~~~

This way to happiness...

[sodascouts]

"Help Me" is one that Freypower told me Joni has confirmed that is about Glenn and, oddly enough, I heard the tail end of it over the speakers in Burlington Coat Factory yesterday! It sounded kind of bland, lol, but with great lyrics:



Help me

I think I’m falling

In love again

When I get that crazy feeling, I know

I’m in trouble again

I’m in trouble

’cause you’re a rambler and a gambler

And a sweet-talking-ladies man

And you love your lovin’

But not like you love your freedom



Help me

I think I’m falling

In love too fast

It’s got me hoping for the future

And worrying about the past

’cause I’ve seen some hot hot blazes

Come down to smoke and ash

We love our lovin’

But not like we love our freedom



Didn’t it feel good

We were sitting there talking

Or lying there not talking

Didn’t it feel good

You dance with the lady

With the hole in her stocking

Didn’t it feel good

Didn’t it feel good



Help me

I think I’m falling

In love with you

Are you going to let me go there by myself

That’s such a lonely thing to do

Both of us flirting around

Flirting and flirting

Hurting too

We love our lovin’

But not like we love our freedom



----------------------------------



Care for some song interpretation?


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[glenneaglesfan]

Well, I sure know what I'm thinking about! :twisted:

Thanks for that, soda, that is really cool.


~~~

This way to happiness...

[sodascouts]

’cause you’re a rambler and a gambler

And a sweet-talking-ladies man


Yep, sounds about right! lol


Or lying there not talking


I actually don't think she is talking about sex here - it sounds more like they're just holding each other, which I find sweet.


You dance with the lady

With the hole in her stocking


I love this line too. I take it to mean he likes those who are not necessarily perfect, flashy types. Joni Mitchell sure isn't one of those types, after all, but she's intelligent and talented and that's what he goes for (at least in this case - not always, as we know from his "teen king" days! lol)


But she knew she couldn't hold him! He was too young and wild back then. He had to grow up first.



P.S. Didn't she also date Jackson Browne? Wonder if that caused any awkwardness? lol


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[Freypower]

The other song which is allegedly about this affair is Car On A Hill, from the same album as Help Me, Court & Spark.


Bob Seger's Still The Same, which is about a gambler (see Desperado) is also about Glenn, I am reliably informed. I always thought this was the case. Glenn was Seger's protege but really became a much bigger star than 'honest journeyman' Seger.


Turning on the charm

Just enough to get you by

You're still the same

You still aim high....



~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[sodascouts]

That Seger song seems to be ambivalent about Glenn. Was there tension between them in the late seventies because of the student outshining the master?

What I mean is, a lot of things can be taken more than one way - For instance, "Turning on the charm" can be said with affection or with derision. I find the last part, which I bolded, especially ambiguous as to whether it's positive or negative.



------

You always won

Every time you placed a bet

You're still damn good

No one's gotten to you yet

Every time they were sure they had you caught

You were quicker than they thought

You'd just turn your back and walk

You always said the cards would never do you wrong

The trick you said was never play the game too long

A gambler's share the only risk that you would take

The only loss you could forsake

The only bluff you couldn't fake



And you're still the same

I caught up with you yesterday

Moving game to game

No one standing in your way

Turning on the charm

Long enough to get you by

You're still the same

You still aim high



There you stood

Everybody watched you play

I just turned and walked away

I had nothing left to say



'Cause you're still the same

You're still the same

Moving game to game

Some things never change

You're still the same




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[Freypower]

I think there is no doubt it's ambiguous. The praise is grudging at best. That's what makes it so intriguing.

Anyone who has heard Glenn sing backup for Seger from Ramblin' Gamblin' Man to Shame On The Moon knows how good the two of them sound together, regardless of any tension between them, and I would love them to work together in some form.

Glenn was supposed to sing Shakedown from Beverly Hills Cop II but he got laryngitis so Seger did it and it went to #1, whereas THIO only made #2. Glenn rang Seger & said 'at least we're keeping the money in Michigan'! :lol:

Another rather ambiguous lyrical reference to Glenn is in Don's Nobody's Business, which concerns his drug bust after Glenn broke the Eagles up.


Well I guess for some revenge is sweet

Though it be once removed

I hope you feel better

I don't know what you proved


and


Well it sure makes you wonder

The things that some people will say

They can see black and white

But they don't seem to notice the grey.


But the song in the main is about the 'victimless crime' and Don doesn't spare himself either.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[sodascouts]

I think there is no doubt it's ambiguous. The praise is grudging at best. That's what makes it so intriguing.

True, that does add to its interest. Makes you wonder what exactly he's feeling.

Another rather ambiguous lyrical reference to Glenn is in Don's Nobody's Business, which concerns his drug bust after Glenn broke the Eagles up.

Yikes, that's bitter. Do we know that's about Glenn? It's so harsh! Why would Glenn want revenge on Don? He was the one who broke it off - seems like Don would be the one looking for revenge, if any were being sought.


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[Freypower]

I don't know for sure that it's about Glenn but Don probably thought at the time that Glenn felt some pleasure in what had happened. 'Revenge' here isn't used in its literal sense.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Molly]

Bob Seger's Still The Same, which is about a gambler (see Desperado) is also about Glenn, I am reliably informed. I always thought this was the case. Glenn was Seger's protege but really became a much bigger star than 'honest journeyman' Seger.

Now, of course, this could be Seeger's attempt to keep an air of mystery about the song, but this is what Seeger says about "Still the Same" in the notes accompanying his "Greatest Hits" CD -


"People have asked me for years who it's about. It's an amalgamation of characters I met when I first went to Hollywood. All "Type A" personalities: overachieving, driven."

[Freypower]

It's entirely possible that my 'reliable' informant about this was drawing a long bow here. Bob is, however, being cagey. All songwriters like to keep the anonymity of the song's subject to a certain degree. It's just that it's always struck me as how Bob might regard the trajectory of Glenn's career. There is also some unconscious autobiography in Hollywood Nights, also from the Stranger In Town album.

We talk about songs about Glenn, but has it struck you that in his own songs he doesn't do a lot of self-analysis? An interesting possible exception may be in This Way To Happiness where he talks about searching, and never really being free. Does anyone want to suggest other examples where he might be trying to reveal something about himself? POMPOY? (I'm running out of time)? Is Big Life a sort of parody of his own life? Think of it - he mentions Aspen, LA and Hawaii in the song.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[sodascouts]

I'm always tempted to read a lot of self-analysis into songs, although it's more difficult when they're co-written. He dedicates "That Girl" to Janie, his first wife, in the liner notes of No Fun Aloud. I've thought it was perhaps recollecting what it's like to tour and miss your girl, although I don't know much about those two so I don't know how much touring he did while they were together.

Ironically, besides the title track, Soul Searchin' doesn't yield too many songs where his soul gets searched. "Livin' Right" is also autobiographical, but obviously, not so much about mind as body - although he does connect the two in the song.

We know that "River of Dreams" is somewhat autobiographical. However, it really seems to touch on surface realities as opposed to a lot of introspection, other than the feeling of escape from a life of drudgery. Considering he was doing what he loved for a living - making music - I wonder what he was escaping from? Everyone's expectations of him to be the "rock star" when he wanted to live a quiet life? The shallowness and excesses of Hollywood types? Smog? lol

But yeah, he does seem to be more about characters and scenarios than about "This is my life." A key difference between him and someone like Stevie Nicks.


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[glenneaglesfan]

I have thought that the line you refer to in POMPOY could symbolise how he feels about being with a younger woman (and possibly about coming late to fatherhood). I've Got Mine, although not exactly autobiographical, gives some insight into how he feels about the disparity between wealth and poverty, and how little many rich people give back to society. Personally I think he himself has given an enormous amount back, both materially with his charity work and inspirationally with his sheer enthusiasm and energy for performing.


~~~

This way to happiness...

[sodascouts]

I think "Big Life" is definitely, in some places, a parody of himself - in others, it's more of a parody of the kind of people he sees around him (like the line about owning the airplane and all that). For a while I thought "Don" was Don Henley but then figured out it was much more probably Donald Trump.

One of the things I love about "I've Got Mine" is the way he applies it to himself in the end. You have him describing rich people who don't care, but then admitting at the end that he's culpable in his own way. I know I've said this before, but that's the kind of thing that makes him rise above the "preachy" judgmental types who like to talk about what everyone else is doing wrong when perhaps they should do a little soul-searchin' themselves. lol


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[Freypower]

'Don' in Big Life is Don Johnson. And Glenn does own a private jet - a Citation 5.

I don't think he's referring to himself at the end of I've Got Mine. He has a specific character, as he does in Big Life and Love in the 21st Century. He's telling the story from this rich man's viewpoint. I think it would be too big a leap for him to suddenly include himself in the song. He does more than make small donations and feel vaguely guilty.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Okay girls - this is a very cool thread. I have really learned a lot here. I never knew that Glenn and Joni had an affair - a few one night stands would not have surprized me though. :) So, obviously I never knew the songs were about Glenn. It's also very interesting about Seger's "Still the Same."

As far as Don and Glenn's relationship at the time Glenn called it quits for the band - in everything I've read, I think Don was very hurt at the time. Glenn was relieved to be out. Obviously, there were bitter feelings and I think both of them took opportunities over the years to take shots at the other. I've always said I would love to know the entire story of their true relationship, but it is very unlikely that we ever will get to hear it. Fortunately, time, maturity, and forgiveness all intravened. IMO, in spite of any differences they may have now, I really believe that deep down they have a great deal of love, respect, and admiration for each other.


~~~~~~

I'm just a hired hand working on the dreams I plan to try. The days go by...

[sodascouts]

'Don' in Big Life is Don Johnson. And Glenn does own a private jet - a Citation 5.

Don Johnson! Never would have guessed that. As far as the plane thing, though, the plane is the song is not a private one. Or if it is the girl he is picking up is very stupid because she apparently has to be told he owns the private jet. lol

As far as him doing more than making small donations, I think he's attempting to do a self-incrimination in the larger sense there too - as in "We're all guilty, including me." Don't you think it would be odd for him to suddenly switch from talking about rich men to doing it from the rich man's point of view? Or from saying there's no guilt to some guilt? Obviously this is up for interpretation and there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.


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[sodascouts]

IMO, in spite of any differences they may have now, I really believe that deep down they have a great deal of love, respect, and admiration for each other.

I agree. :)


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[Freypower]

I just think the way he says 'I can't take care of everyone/now that I've got mine' is the rich man's attempt to defend himself from what has been said about him going by in his limousine (and that part was sung from the viewpoint of the non-famous people: 'they don't see us looking back'). So is the house of cards thing. I honestly don't think that's Glenn talking about himself. Then the fact that he then switches to the 'moral malnutrition' bit indicates that he's now passing judgment on this man whose mentality he has just described. I think the idea that Glenn is including himself here is taking it too literally.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Freypower]

Just expanding on this, in San Diego he says 'people thought I was hypocritical for writing a song about the haves & have nots. Hey - it's just a song'. Incidentally the SD version is probably superior to Dublin. He says his voice is hoarse & you can hear that, but it adds to the charm.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I'll weigh in here on "I've Got Mine" - I always interpreted as Glenn "partially" including himself here because he intentionally switches to first person in the one verse, and then switches back. I thought that was his attempt to say "yeah, I include myself here, but only in this part." Thats just my take on it - but, as I always say, a good songwriter leaves things open for intrepretation - and IMHO - this is a great song!


~~~~~~

I'm just a hired hand working on the dreams I plan to try. The days go by...

[sodascouts]

I think many people, including myself, can feel implicated by the first-person verse. That's part of the song's power to me - but that's just my interp!


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[Freypower]

Just because a songwriter uses first person doesn't necessarily mean it's about the songwriter. He has specifically referred to the character in Love in the 21st Century, for instance, as 'the guy in the song', although to be fair I think it's fairly obvious that isn't about him.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Freypower]

Just a couple of observations with the writing of The Last Resort I found interesting:

Glenn says 'I called it Henley's opus. I helped describe what the song was going to be about and assisted with the arrangement, but it was Don's lyric and basic chord progression'. I think that as usual he is being remarkably generous here regarding how much of the music he wrote. He is credited with co-writing the song, the same as he gets a co-lead vocal on King of Hollywood, which 'Don sings'.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[sodascouts]

That's true. There's a reason for that co-credit, after all.


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[DonFan]

This has been a very interesting read. I didn't know about Glenn & Joni Mitchell either. I have listened to "Help Me" for ages, however, and the next time they play it on Classic Radio I will definitely listen to it in a new way!

I'm not surprised that the Don in that song referred to Don Johnson. Glenn guest-starred on Miami Vice, after all, and he & Don made that cool Pepsi commercial together too.

I am sorry that we always seem to be looking for acrimonious comments between Don & Glenn. I know the break-up was hard on both of them, and for awhile they did seem to regard each other's solo efforts with suspicion. I read somewhere that Don even made a comment about the speedy cancellation of South of Sunset. But later, Don also made an effort to patch things up when tried to call Glenn after he saw him on a late night talk show, so.....Whatever happened between the two of them, I am glad they were able to get past that and reunite, and I think they are good friends again now.

[sodascouts]

Yeah, it seems like they are getting along better than ever now.


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[Freypower]

Re Don contacting Glenn, that was in 1984, well before SOS, but you're right, at least it happened.


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Yep - like I said earlier, thank goodness for maturity and forgiveness because, let's face it, together, they are one heck of a team. IMO, virtually unbeatable! :smokin:


~~~~~~

I'm just a hired hand working on the dreams I plan to try. The days go by...

[sodascouts]

Yep - like I said earlier, thank goodness for maturity and forgiveness because, let's face it, together, they are one heck of a team. IMO, virtually unbeatable! :smokin:

I said this in my Sacramento review, but I too think that together they rise above what they can do individually.


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[glenneaglesfan]

On the basis of this thread I got hold of Court and Spark, which I haven't listened to since 1976. These are the lyrics for Car On A Hill.


I've been sitting up waiting for my sugar to show

I've been listening to the sirens and the radio

He said he'd be over three hours ago

I've been waiting for his car on the hill

He makes friends easy

He's not like me

I watch for judgement anxiously

Now where in the city can that boy be

Waiting for a car

Climbing

Climbing

Climbing the hill



He's a real good talker - I think he's a friend

Fast tires come screaming around the bend

But there's still no buzzer

They roll on...

And - I'm waiting for his car on the hill

It always seems so righteous at the start

When there's so much laughter

When there's so much spark

When there's so much sweetness in the dark

Waiting for a car

Climbing

Climbing

Climbing the hill

~~~~~



I've been sitting up waiting for my sugar to show

proves conclusively that it's about Glenn, lol!



He makes friends easy

He's not like me

I watch for judgement anxiously

seems to show how insecure about herself she feels in the face of his self assurance.



He's a real good talker - I think he's a friend

Friend as well as lover, perhaps she needn't be so insecure.



When there's so much laughter

When there's so much spark

When there's so much sweetness in the dark

<sigh> 'nuff said.



~~~

This way to happiness...

[sodascouts]

I can totally see that. And how funny that she calls him Sugar too! lol I think that back then, he knew how to charm the ladies - knew the right things to say to make them smile or make them feel loved, the right things to do in the dark to make them "enjoy themselves" - but he never invested in the relationship. A guy like that is the most dangerous kind!


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[glenneaglesfan]

I bet nobody ever regretted it though!


~~~

This way to happiness...

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Thanks for the lyrics, glennfan. They are very "interesting" and are probably a perfect description of Glenn (er, I mean Sugar) back in those days. I can't believe she called him Sugar!!! :mad: :D


~~~~~~

I'm just a hired hand working on the dreams I plan to try. The days go by...

[Freypower]

Same here, but to use one of Vivien Leigh's classic lines from Gone With The Wind, 'Don't call me Sugar'!!!
:rofl:


~~~

There's talk on the street, it sounds so familiar
Great expectations, everybody's watching you

[sodascouts]

You know, I'd never heard that phrase outside of Glenn's song before.

I bet he knew how to make girl smile. ;)


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[Freypower]

To resuscitate this topic, I have another Glenn/Joni story. I heard another track from Court & Spark which was the album she did at the time of the affair. In a track called Twisted she's very funny about being in analysis & thinking she was a genius when she was three. At the end of the song a voice says 'chick's gone Flip City'. :D

Given Joni's image as a very serious songwriter, she really must have lightened up during the time she spent with Glenn.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Soda - I'll bet he still does! :blush:

~~~~~~

I'm just a hired hand working on the dreams I plan to try. The days go by...

[AgingHippieChick]

Well, am I the last to know or what??? I was on Youtube tonight, checking out some Glenn tunes, when I ran across the info about "Help Me" being written about Glenn. OMG...I never knew that :o :shock: :o and I love the Court and Spark album! No doubt Glenn has been a heartbreaker for many decades. It's easy to see how any woman could fall for him!! 8)

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Well AHC - I would guess you're right. It seems that Glenn must've always had a way with the ladies. I'll bet that video you watched on YouTube must have been the one our own SodaScouts put up wasn't it? :wink:

[sodascouts]

It was if it was this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXlgmI5YM4E

[Freypower]

I was listening to the title track from Court & Spark and I thought it was possible it may also have been about Glenn. I never understood the title, but she sings something about 'you're looking for a woman to court and spark'. Quite. 8)

But looking at it it seems to be more about an itinerant musician such as she also describes in For Free:

http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.nsf/COURT-AND-SPARK-lyrics-Joni-Mitchell/CBE877BFD95825E548256A420050CD55

[sodascouts]

I remember hearing that one time Glenn was asked by Cameron Crowe, "Are you aware most of Joni Mitchell's "Court and Spark" album is about you?" He answered he was aware of it and that he knew he hadn't treated her as well as she deserved, but he didn't elaborate. Guess that's "his own business"!

[Freypower]

In that case, I think Down To You is about him too.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Wow - if most of this album is about Glenn, I may have to give it another listen. I haven't listened to it in many years - it was probably back in the '70's when I last heard it.

[Mrs Frey]

After reading through this thread, I was reminded of a comment made to me during my New Year's Eve gig last year (which you can read about in more detail in "Cheap Talk and Wine: What's happening in your life?" :wink:). One of the audience members paid me a huge compliment after I sang "Wild Mountain Thyme" - she told me I sounded like Joni Mitchell during the song :shock: :D.

I've only heard about one of her songs, but I reckon I'm going to look for this album if so many of the songs on it were written about Glenn :heart: !

[Glennsallnighter]

Nice compliment MF! What a lovely thing for that lady to say. I'm sure you sounded great! Congratulations.

I've often said I'd love to write a song to or about Glenn :heart: . But an Album! WOW!

[glenneaglesfan]

Well, I must go and listen to this again, and look at the lyrics. That comment to Cameron Crowe is interesting. At least he shows a bit of remorse for how he treated Joni.

MF, that's a nice compliment. I think Joni Mitchell is one of the great singer songwriters and her voice is amazing. You should try and get a couple of her albums. I have For The Roses, Blue and Hissing Of Summer Lawns in addition to Court And Spark.

[Freypower]

As well as Court & Spark I have Ladies Of The Canyon, Blue and Hejira. Hejira is far & away the best of them.

[AgingHippieChick]

Yes, that was Soda's video that I watched on Youtube, and that's where I read that Glenn & Joni had once dated and that she wrote "Help Me" about him...I can't believe I never knew this!!! And I listen to Court and Spark quite often...no doubt I'll be playing it soon, and it will have a whole new meaning!!