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sodascouts
04-05-2009, 04:09 PM
I was playing the lyrics game and a new topic occurred to me.

Have you ever found some of the lyrics of the Eagles, be it as a group or in their solo work, that puzzled you a bit? I have. Here's some of mine:


"I can't give a reason why I should ever wanna die"
- Twenty-one, Eagles

This always seemed an odd line to me. The only people who have reasons who want to die are suicidal, and what does being suicidal have to do with the vibrant youthfulness of the song? "I'm 21, so I'm not suicidal!" Seems like that's a given. I guess it could be a dark, ironic commentary that if you live long enough, you inevitably want to die....


"You’re not like your mothers"
- Teenage Jail, Eagles

The plural here is such an odd choice. We've suddenly switched from an assumed "you" singular to a "you" plural - I guess to make it rhyme with "others" in the next line - I always wondered why they did that, as it's a bit jarring.


"Because she knows deep in her heart that he'll be back someday"
- The Girl from Yesterday, Eagles

Traditionally, in literature, knowing something "deep in your heart" means you know the truth despite appearances. For instance, "He told everyone they would be together forever, but he knew deep in his heart it wasn't going to last." In this case, it's not the truth at all - he's never coming back. I guess this is supposed to be indicative of the depth of her self-delusion? Still, an odd choice.


"You can lay your head back on the ground, and let your hair fall all around me"
- End of the Innocence, Don Henley

This doesn't seem to be physically possible. If her head is back on the ground, wouldn't her hair be flat on the ground as well? When I listen to the song, I just pretend like the first part of the line doesn't exist and picture the woman on top, her long hair cascading around the face of the guy beneath her as they kiss.


"Somehow I knew you would understand: I did it for your love"
- I Did It for your Love, Glenn Frey

In this song, the girl has dumped the guy. So... guess she didn't understand after all!


Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Prettymaid
04-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Soda, whatever you do, don't ask Don about any of these lyrics! lol! He would tear you to pieces with your literal interpretations!

Troubadour
04-05-2009, 04:21 PM
LOL! I'd like to hear him explain, in great detail, the End Of The Innocence lyric though.

Great topic, Soda. I'll have a think - I'm sure there are a few I've wondered about.

sodascouts
04-05-2009, 04:36 PM
Soda, whatever you do, don't ask Don about any of these lyrics! lol! He would tear you to pieces with your literal interpretations!

Well, he could try, but I didn't get a PhD in literary criticism without knowing the difference between a sophisticated ironic metaphor (the "spirit" of wine in Hotel California being a false spirit) and a clumsy word picture where we have a woman's hair simultaneously on the ground and hanging down.

That said, I would never be so rude to point out such a thing to his face in an interview! How tacky to embarrass someone like that. Plus, the song End of the Innocence is so magnificent overall - that's just my only one small quibble with it. Henley is a masterful songwriter and poet, but nobody's perfect. Hopefully he would have enough self-awareness to realize that and not be hyper-defensive.

Prettymaid
04-05-2009, 04:41 PM
Well, in End of the Innocence he says they are sitting watching the clouds go by....maybe at some point they lay down, top of head to top of head, and then her hair would fall all around him...

sodascouts
04-05-2009, 04:48 PM
You mean like this?

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/glennfreyonline/misc/p_2435459.jpg

Still not seeing the hair thing working.

Prettymaid
04-05-2009, 04:50 PM
Yes, exactly! She'd have to have really long hair and it would have to be billowing...

ticky
04-05-2009, 04:52 PM
maybe he's standing in a hole? or sitting or laying...



None the less, while it's fun to examine this stuff, I think the feeling behind the song and the feelings the lyrics invoke are more important then the literal meaning of the words. Chalk it up to artistic license.

sodascouts
04-05-2009, 04:56 PM
Hmm, PM, I can picture that, actually....

But I just got the feeling at that point in the song that they were preparing to become intimate - she was about to lose her innocence - and as a result, I assumed that they were touching a bit more than head to head at that moment. ;)

Ticky - I agree that it's not what's most important about the song. I just thought it would be fun to discuss.

Prettymaid
04-05-2009, 05:02 PM
I guess if her hair was really long and billowy they could be laying face to face and it could possibly fall all around him (that's some really long hair though).

EagleLady
04-05-2009, 05:05 PM
I don't really like to analyze lyrics, I just sort of contemplate what they might mean

Prettymaid
04-05-2009, 05:21 PM
Well, you all know how much I love Last Good Time in Town, but when Joe sings, "I don't mind being by myself 'cause I know you'll come on down" isn't he contradicting himself?

sodascouts
04-05-2009, 05:41 PM
Seems like it to me, PM!

Perhaps that's why it's saved 'til almost the end... it belies the whole song!

Reminds me of the line from Glenn's song "I Got Love": "No more pretending I like being alone." lol

Troubadour
04-05-2009, 05:52 PM
I have long hair. Want me to demonstrate? ;)

On the subject of the Twenty-One lyric... Interesting points, Soda. I see it, at face value, as a kind of embodiment of the "sunny days" of youth, where everything's an adventure and you can't imagine anything truly bad happening. The optimistic but probably slightly arrogant, "nothing's gonna bring me down" mentality. However, I think the mention of death brings something darker to the song. When you're 21 and "strong", you don't really believe that bad things will happen - but you know, in your head, that you'll have to face tough times at some point in your life. It's like trying to hold onto that sense of eternal youth and vibrancy. As a result, the song makes me happy and a little sad at the same time.

As for LGTIT, that's an interesting lyric. I might have completely the wrong end of the stick, but I get the feeling that he's convincing himself that he's happy being alone (which is easy to do) all the way through the song. Sure, closing the curtains and doing the crossword might be bliss for a week or two, but for someone who has been used to socialising and partying, I get the feeling it would be incredibly dull after a while! The fact that he blames not going out on not "having the time", suggests he's making excuses for it, too. He seems pretty hung up on this person and he's deceiving himself into thinking he's content, when what he's doing is waiting for her to come over and keep him company.

Scarlet Sun
04-05-2009, 10:43 PM
On Twenty-One, I think Bernie put that in there to tie the song in more closely with the album theme.

Freypower
04-05-2009, 10:48 PM
I agree with Troub's comments on both Twenty-One and LGTIT.

Regarding Teenage Jail, I tend to think they are just broadening the scope in the last verse to include all teenagers. It is somewhat clumsy.

A line that has always puzzled me is from All Those Lies: 'get the feeling like they want me' (quoted from GFO). Who are 'they'? Everyone else in the world? And what do they 'want', exactly?

Fan_For_Life
04-05-2009, 11:36 PM
"You can lay your head back on the ground, and let your hair fall all around me"
- End of the Innocence, Don Henley

This doesn't seem to be physically possible. If her head is back on the ground, wouldn't her hair be flat on the ground as well? When I listen to the song, I just pretend like the first part of the line doesn't exist and picture the woman on top, her long hair cascading around the face of the guy beneath her as they kiss.

I think for each verse it could refer to something different. Or like he's talking/remembering these things with a lifetime friend turned into a more serious relationship perhaps marriage.

The second verse is confusing too, because it speaks about spacious skies threatening, weapons being made, a tired old man then goes back to the divorce issue. Of which maybe is referring to a war taking place inside the home and that's why there is a threatening sky hanging over his head.

The third verse is where it turns to present where the writer is seeing this relationship end the same way as his parents.

I don't know something like that. :)

Freypower
04-06-2009, 12:06 AM
I assume you are saying that the 'I know a place where we can go' part is a chorus. If it is it is very long, although it is repeated.

Perhaps I am wrong, but for me the 'oh beautiful for spacious skies' verse (the second, non-chorus verse) is about America and its (to Henley) warmongering under Reagan, the 'tired old man'. It doesn't have anything to do with the narrator's personal situation as far as I can see. He is talking both about the loss of personal innocence and national innocence. The loss of national innocence is what he refers to in the second verse. I think it is very specific. He doesn't return to the personal situation until he repeats the chorus.

I also don't see how he is saying 'this relationship is ending the way his parents' did'. He refers to 'that same small town in each of us' but he does not refer to any other relationship in the last verse.

Fan_For_Life
04-06-2009, 07:11 AM
If not part of the chorus, certainly a prelude.

I also hear that there is more than personal references. The national aspects of the song refers to war. The personal aspect is where the listener is allowed to take and interperet the song however it makes sense to.

Third verse talks about... I need to remember this so baby give me just one kiss let me take a long last look before we say goodbye.. who is baby? Innocence or someone the writer is involved with?

Prettymaid
04-06-2009, 07:34 AM
I agree with Troub's comments on both Twenty-One and LGTIT.

Regarding Teenage Jail, I tend to think they are just broadening the scope in the last verse to include all teenagers. It is somewhat clumsy.

A line that has always puzzled me is from All Those Lies: 'get the feeling like they want me' (quoted from GFO). Who are 'they'? Everyone else in the world? And what do they 'want', exactly?

Concerning All Those Lies, I guess we'll never know who 'they' are until we know about the things he does (drugs, cheating?). He's telling her not to believe 'them' because they're lying,while clearly he's admitting to us that he's the one who's lying. I think it's just another way of saying they're out to get him.

sodascouts
04-06-2009, 10:44 AM
Yeah, I agree with PM... I think that All Those Lies is a mixture of his paranoia about getting discovered not only by his girl but by "them" - the other people he's wronged, presumably - and also setting up the idea that he's going to be lied about by "them" so his girl shouldn't "believe a single lie she's heard."

With regard to End of the Innocence, I've always thought the entire song could be seen as an extended socio-political metaphor, that even when Henley was speaking in the context of a personal relationship it could be seen in the national context. If you interpret the woman as being the American pysche and the desire for a simpler time in the face of political corruption, the connection to the second verse makes more sense. The scene of the woman losing her sexual innocence in the woods evokes that same kind of feeling of wistful nostalgia of the country losing that type of 50s innocence where there was a lot more trust in government. While I still feel the word picture he uses to evoke this emotion is a teeny bit flawed, the overarching idea of the metaphor is a strong one. Like many of Don's songs, it can have multiple, layered meanings.

Freypower
04-06-2009, 07:09 PM
I always thought the line in All Those Lies was 'don't you believe the silly lie you heard'. Now I look it up on GFO and see that you do have the word as 'single'. To me in both the studio version & the live version I never heard anything other than 'silly'.

I'm glad we have this thread because once and for all, I would like the line in They're Not Here, They're Not Coming about 'a world that won't give Oprah no home on the range' explained to me. I know it had something to do with her boycotting meat.

And what is 'Orlando's rat' from the same song?

Trivia: the line 'bring back the Duke of Earl' I have always thought pays homage to Randy Newman's song Mikey: 'Mikey! Whatever happened to the f***n' Duke of Earl'?

sodascouts
04-06-2009, 09:11 PM
Well, I'll dig out the songbook to doublecheck All Those Lies, but I'm pretty sure those lyrics are right (of course, THOSE lyrics are sometimes wrong too)!

Regarding "Orlando's rat" and the Oprah line, here's what Henley had to say in an interview with Launch Music (http://music.yahoo.com/read/interview/12052725):
LAUNCH:
One of the more interesting songs on the album is "They're Not Here, They're Not Coming." Is that based on any particular experience you've had in your life?

HENLEY:
That's about--yeah, that's based on several things in my life. The first thing that's based on is the Roswell Incident--the fact that there was crash out near Roswell, New Mexico in '47, which is the year I was born. And I'm skeptical about these things--I mean, I've read a lot of science fiction, I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan--I'm interested in science in general. I subscribe to a magazine called Skeptical Inquirer, which debunks all this paranormal B.S. that you hear now all over the television and the media. And any good scientist will tell you that it's a virtual impossibility for people from another solar system or another planet to make it to Earth. No organism could live long enough--it's just theoretically impossible, unless they knew how to transcend time and dimensions and things like that. On the other hand, there's a statistic stating that about 50% of the American public believes that aliens have either been here or currently walk among us--which really blew my mind.

LAUNCH:
And they don't know the Vice President's name...

HENLEY:
[laughs] Right. They think you have to have a passport to go to New Mexico. So I decided to write a song about it. But the underlying meaning behind the song has to do with religion and spirituality. That people are so in need of something or somebody to come from up there down here to save us, because we're incapable obviously of saving ourselves, and there's that need and that longing to know that we're not alone and that somebody else is here or out there. So that's really the underlying meaning--that theme runs through a lot of my songs, basically I'm shouting, "Fix it yourself!" You know? And in the song I try to outline some of the absurdities in our culture--you know, the fact that Merle Haggard and George Jones can't get played on the radio, and who would want to visit a culture like that? And that our main cultural exports--I'm talking about Orlando's Rat--funny, a lot of people don't understand what I'm talking about, some of the guys in my band came up to me and said, "What is Orlando's Rat?"

LAUNCH:
I was wondering what went on between your last label and this--did you go through some weird Disney deal?

HENLEY:
No--I just think they're dangerous, that's all. I've read all the books about Disney, about the company--the voraciousness of the company. It's such a dichotomy. People say, "How could you not like something like Mickey Mouse and Walt Disney?" Well, there's a dark underbelly under all of these companies; people just see the surface, they don't see what's underneath. And then there's the line about how they won't give Oprah a new home on the range--which refers to my own home state. The beef producers' association, the cattlemen suing her because she made some remark about how "I'll never eat a hamburger again," which they dragged her into court in Amarillo, Texas, which she turned into a great show--she just brought a cast from Amarillo. That's really close to home, that's one of those things that make me ashamed of my own people. That and Texas being the most polluted state in the union, the highest teen pregnancy rate, a million hungry kids, so you can guess who I'm not voting for. So I just had fun with the song. That song on the album, people either really like it or they don't like it at all.

------------------------

So, "Orlando's rat" is Mickey Mouse, the name coming from the fact that Disneyworld is in Orlando, Florida.

ETA: I hate it when Henley disses Texas. He seems to both love it and loathe it.

Freypower
04-06-2009, 09:17 PM
Is that all it is? Thanks for clearing that up.

Regarding All Those Lies I would prefer it if it IS 'single lie' because I have always thought 'silly lie' sounded too clunky while he sang it. :fear:

ETA: Soda, I know you are originally from Texas. Why don't you like it when Don 'disses' Texas as you put it? There is obviously a great deal about the state that he loves, as he now chooses to live there. Surely he has the right to comment on aspects of it he doesn't like? For what its worth, I feel the same way about my own country.

sodascouts
04-06-2009, 10:06 PM
He has the right to criticize it, and I have the right to roll my eyes at it. Certainly Texas has its problems, but from the context it seems that he was more about dissing Texas because of its governor at the time, Bush, who was then running for President. As you can surmise with his "you can guess who I'm not voting for" line, some of his criticisms are echoing talking points from the Democratic campaign that year.

For instance, Gore claimed that Texas, and specifically Houston, were the most polluted areas in America during his 2000 campaign to discredit Bush. But check out the facts (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_13_52/ai_63173670/):
"'Anyone who claims that Houston's smog problems are equal to or worse than L.A.'s is misinformed,' says Kay Jones, a former EPA official who now consults on air quality. The thing is, Houston had an unusually hot summer and Los Angeles an unusually cool one-which created a one-year anomaly in smog readings, almost certain to be reversed this fall [of 2000] if the Chronicle makes a new assessment using the same criteria. Yet even these criteria weren't well chosen. Alternative interpretations of the same EPA data from last year show no change at all between Houston and L.A.; the air in both cities is smoggy, but L.A. remains king."
As of 2008, Los Angeles remains the worst area regarding air pollution, according to the American Lung Association (http://www.stainnc.org/?p=30).

The "highest teen pregnancy rate" is also inaccurate. According to the Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf), that honor went to Mississipi or Nevada in 2000, depending on how you calculated the statistics.

And frivolous lawsuits are hardly the problem in Texas that they are in places like California! There is still a stigma about "lawyering up" in Texas that does not seem to exist in California, and the Cattleman's Association is hardly representative of the whole state. Yet, Don uses their actions to talk about his shame of the state as a whole, as if such things only happen in Texas and people there are somehow lesser than people elsewhere. Patently unfair.

It just seems like Texas gets kicked around by Hollywood elitists all the time, despite the fact that they need to remove the beam from their own eye, so to speak. In this case, it seems Don bought into hype generated by people with political agendas, which honestly surprises me. You'd think he could do the research that I did.

Anyway, I don't believe that Don is a Hollywood elitist at heart, but sometimes he comes off like one. And he has every right to. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 06:18 PM
Listening to a song in the car yesterday reminded me of this thread, and I thought I'd revive it with another "puzzling lyric":

The song: A Month of Sundays (http://www.donhenleyonline.com/solo/btbp/monthofsundays.htm)
The puzzling lyric: "I wonder when I'll see my companion again."

The song ends with it. "Companion" always seemed an odd word choice to me. Is it his wife? Is she dead? Is he waiting to die so he can join her in the afterlife? "Companion" is usually not a term one uses to refer to the love of one's life. Is it someone else? Who? Or am I completely on the wrong track and this isn't about waiting to die to join someone already dead? This is a pretty intense song and to end on such a vague phrase really seems to take some of the punch out of it... am I missing something?

Freypower
01-17-2010, 06:39 PM
That's funny you should mention that Soda. I've never understood it either, just as I've never understood the 'Union Jack' reference. I think he's an older man whose wife is now dead and he's referring to his current lady friend (so to speak) as his 'companion' because he's a bit too set in his ways to call her anything more 'intense' like 'lover' or even 'girlfriend'. I don't think she is dead - she just has not been to his house for a while.

Normally I associate the word 'companion' with women friends of heroines in 19th century novels. I think of Jane Austen or Henry James heroines as having 'companions'. I normally don't think of it in a male sense.

I don't think it's a very satisfactory ending to the song, which I love. Just to bring this new idea in from left field out of nowhere, in the very last line, and then to make it so unclear, rather dampens the effect of it, as you have already said.

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 06:45 PM
Here's my take on the "Union Jack" lyric. In the song, he sings:
I went in the town on the Fourth of July
Watched 'em parade past the Union Jack
Watched 'em break out the brass and beat on the drum
One step forward and two steps back

It does seem pretty bizarre - the 4th of July is our Independence Day from Britain, the day the USA no longer considered the Union Jack its flag.

I believe that this is used to illustrate the sense of a lack of progression of the United States. "One step forward and two steps back." We haven't progressed as a nation even from our inception.

It's hyperbolic to the degree that it comes off as confusing and over-the-top - I think his point would have been made more clearly simply by ditching the Britain reference and keeping it to the USA. He could have simply referred to "Old Glory" or "The Stars and Stripes" and come up with a new rhyme, causing less head-scratching. He didn't need to take us all the way back to 1776 to indicate lack of progression!

At any rate, that's what I think the Union Jack is supposed to represent.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 06:56 PM
He has the right to criticize it, and I have the right to roll my eyes at it. Certainly Texas has its problems, but from the context it seems that he was more about dissing Texas because of its governor at the time, Bush, who was then running for President. As you can surmise with his "you can guess who I'm not voting for" line, some of his criticisms are echoing talking points from the Democratic campaign that year.

For instance, Gore claimed that Texas, and specifically Houston, were the most polluted areas in America during his 2000 campaign to discredit Bush. But check out the facts (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_13_52/ai_63173670/):
"'Anyone who claims that Houston's smog problems are equal to or worse than L.A.'s is misinformed,' says Kay Jones, a former EPA official who now consults on air quality. The thing is, Houston had an unusually hot summer and Los Angeles an unusually cool one-which created a one-year anomaly in smog readings, almost certain to be reversed this fall [of 2000] if the Chronicle makes a new assessment using the same criteria. Yet even these criteria weren't well chosen. Alternative interpretations of the same EPA data from last year show no change at all between Houston and L.A.; the air in both cities is smoggy, but L.A. remains king."
As of 2008, Los Angeles remains the worst area regarding air pollution, according to the American Lung Association (http://www.stainnc.org/?p=30).

The "highest teen pregnancy rate" is also inaccurate. According to the Guttmacher Institute (http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf), that honor went to Mississipi or Nevada in 2000, depending on how you calculated the statistics.

And frivolous lawsuits are hardly the problem in Texas that they are in places like California! There is still a stigma about "lawyering up" in Texas that does not seem to exist in California, and the Cattleman's Association is hardly representative of the whole state. Yet, Don uses their actions to talk about his shame of the state as a whole, as if such things only happen in Texas and people there are somehow lesser than people elsewhere. Patently unfair.

It just seems like Texas gets kicked around by Hollywood elitists all the time, despite the fact that they need to remove the beam from their own eye, so to speak. In this case, it seems Don bought into hype generated by people with political agendas, which honestly surprises me. You'd think he could do the research that I did.

Anyway, I don't believe that Don is a Hollywood elitist at heart, but sometimes he comes off like one. And he has every right to. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Texas as victim? Really?

I've spent tons of time in both states that you compare (California and Texas) and they are far more alike than different. Stereotypical Texans have always invited (by that I mean since 1860 or so) criticism because their culture is to be boastful and to behave in a manner that their way of doing things is better. We can make up huckster terms like "hollywood elites" and we can say 'well, she is one'... but when we start to define terms, it falls apart. Is Arnold a hollywood elite? How about fred grandy (Gopher)? How about Bruce Willis? It all sounds so reasonable until we apply reason to it.

As to the pollution question... well, with the 'bad summer' in Houston was Houston more polluted that year? if the answer is yes, then for that time, Houston WAS the most polluted, right? This whole post smacks of wanting to contextualize things to fit our own little imaginary worldview. That is fine, of course (the whole "I have a right thing") so long as we recognize it is just made up reality.... it isn't real. You deftly contextualize for Gore why he made his comments. It was in response to Bush claiming he was an environmentalist and had done an 'excellent' job at reducing pollution which was total bullsh*t (coining a term texans know)... was it hyperbole? probably. Is Houston a stinkhole of pollution. Yes, it is. I've spent a good amount of time there and there is room for improvement.

Is there room for improvement in Gore's Tennessee? Uh, yeah, I lived in tn for a year and there are definitely environmental concerns? you bet. Is "worst" really the winner? The main point.. which of those two probably had a higher interest (meaning more interest and was more of an advocate) for the environment? if a person doesn't know that answer immediately, I'd submit it is time for additional research.

After reading this whole thread... It is interesting in that no one makes the distinction between popular songwriting and the type of criticism one would apply to literature or poetry. Applying the rules for one to the other is just not terribly valid.

I guess we're all guilty of picking and choosing the parts we like to emphasize and how we marginalize other data to serve our needs. We roll our eyes when we emotionally don't like what we hear but are unwilling to take the time to discover if our perceptions are based in reality or just how we want to see things.

I had some friends visit me last week from 'way out of town'... they'd not been to California beyond the LA area and in the course of the visit we traveled fairly widely from the central coast region to central california to the north coast and far north and they were amazed to find that California produces more agricultural products than nearly any other state. (it is the 7th largest economy on the planet.)

The amount of cattle, produce and the overall AG environment amazed them. When I showed them the data for how much pollution comes from AG and especially big AG they were blown away.

My point being, California is a state with lots of different types of people. Ronald Reagan AND Jerry Brown come from here. We have Orange County AND San Francisco... but so many people talk about the extremes rather than seeing the main of an amazing varied place. It is the only state which has hosted both the summer and winter olympics. Texas produced Ann Richards, LBJ AND Dub (well kinda

If Texas became unfairly linked to Bush (although calling him a Texan is a stretch to most texans I know as he was not born in Texas, it is like calling Arnold a Californian.) Lots of texans don't dig Austin and see it as some hippy, california enclave...

To think that Don Henley isn't a hollywood elitist (whatever that is) is to excuse your friend for being something that he is. He is against most of the methods that the right would use to rule the country. Of late, I've heard several people say I love jackson browne's music and lyrics but hate his politics.... it is antithetical to me... Having seen shows back in the 70's when bands would play, then talk a little and tune, then play... they all made political commentary and most of it was along the lines of the stuff that Henley and Browne (heck all the folks on the No Nukes record) had to say...

When they do that now, people walk out. The artists didn't change... they still believe what they believed before.... but it is counter to the things that some folks want to hear as they 'age up'...

Interesting that a native Texan, Henley, is a hollywood elite (in action and opinion according to folks who want to marginalize people) and Bush, who is NOT a native Texan, is the apotheosis of Texan. I gotta say, I have a corral full of relatives in Texas and that is NOT how they see it... and they live on ranches and farms for the most part....

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 07:02 PM
Here's my take on the "Union Jack" lyric. In the song, he sings:
I went in the town on the Fourth of July
Watched 'em parade past the Union Jack
Watched 'em break out the brass and beat on the drum
One step forward and two steps back

It does seem pretty bizarre - the 4th of July is our Independence Day from Britain, the day the USA no longer considered the Union Jack its flag.

I believe that this is used to illustrate the sense of a lack of progression of the United States. "One step forward and two steps back." We haven't progressed as a nation even from our inception.

It's hyperbolic to the degree that it comes off as confusing and over-the-top - I think his point would have been made more clearly simply by ditching the Britain reference and keeping it to the USA. He could have simply referred to "Old Glory" or "The Stars and Stripes" and come up with a new rhyme, causing less head-scratching. He didn't need to take us all the way back to 1776 to indicate lack of progression!

At any rate, that's what I think the Union Jack is supposed to represent.

it is about tyranny. we tossed the tyrants out and became them. one step forward (revolution) two steps back (becoming that which we overthrew).. heavy handed, but heavy handed in heavy handed "suck on this" times.

Why didn't he need to say that? because we don't want to hear it? With things like the 'patriot act' (now that is a term!) increasing central govt control in our lives for our 'security'... a limit to several of our freedoms which, in the author's opinion, are being abridged in the manner that the British tried to bring the colonies into line?

Why should he 'not need to take us back' when he thinks that the idea of progress turned out to be temporary at best and maybe an illusion.

Maybe the 'hard truths' are just that.. hard to accept. I think that is his take and his lyrics reflect his beliefs!

It isn't exactly, "Celebrate" by Madonna, but for his fans, we want more than the good news, we want the news as he sees it.

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 07:13 PM
I have a corral full of relatives in Texas too, because I grew up there. :)

People have their own agendas and they spin the facts to suit them. The only way to combat it is to do your own research and reach your own conclusions. I have done so. You do not agree with my conclusions. So be it.


After reading this whole thread... It is interesting in that no one makes the distinction between popular songwriting and the type of criticism one would apply to literature or poetry. Applying the rules for one to the other is just not terribly valid.

Don Henley on songwriting:

"To become a better songwriter, Henley advocates reading great literature and listening to great writers. He recommends Emerson’s essays, particularly Self-Reliance. There’s also a book titled Stranger Music which features selected songs and poems by Leonard Cohen. (Henley is one of the artists who is recording a song for an upcoming Cohen tribute album.) Henley cited a selection of page 287 titled 'How to Speak Poetry' that he feels is valuable for lyricists."

So it seems Henley disagrees with you.

Regardless, you've missed the point of this thread. It's not "Lyrics that don't stand up to literary criticism." It's "puzzling lyrics" - ie, lyrics that don't make sense or that we'd like to interrogate further.

If you feel these lyrics do make sense, please feel free to say so. That's what we've all been doing. I think it's been fun and even instructive in that I've learned a lot about some of the lyrics I was initially puzzled about, and now understand them better.

And I think many songwriters, especially those with viewpoints they are trying to express, would not chafe at intelligent discussion of their lyrics - even if that discussion did not consist solely of gushing praise for their technique or "AMEN"'s to their belief system.

Freypower
01-17-2010, 07:29 PM
I must say that having had literary training myself (though I don't have a PhD like Soda) I enjoy analysing lyrics in a critical manner. I don't think that because they are lyrics in a popular song they aren't worthy of such analysis.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 07:40 PM
So it seems Henley disagrees with you.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but suggesting that folks read essayists and literature is not to say they are the same any more than a composer telling that composers should listen to birds sing and coyotes howl.

There is musical content in a birdsong, but the intent and conventions are different.

The same holds true for analyzing lyrics.

I haven't misunderstood the topic of Puzzling lyrics at all, I just haven't jumped to using the tools of the literary trade to decide their merit... you can see that distinction, right?

I questioned using the tools of literary criticism based on your own qualification of some lyrics violating some rules that you know from your education, I'd submit that YOU are making assumptions that are not in evidence. Go back and read what you wrote and you may see what I'm talking about.

I'd also submit that there is some value to asking an artist about his work habits, influences etc., but they are as likely to manipulate their answers to fit a persona as they are to tell you about their creative process.

One of the ironies of Henley's music and politics is that during the Eagles early years they aggressively avoided any semblance of politics in their music and only in the later 70's were they willing to participate in political causes, but not lyrically.

Beginning with Hotel, they started with social commentary.

The key feature in puzzling lyrics is their context with the music which is barely mentioned here. Song lyrics are not designed to be apart from the music. I remember hearing Chris McVie (Fleetwood Mac) saying, "God, Stevie's lyrics are impossible to understand when you see them, but once she starts playing that funny little organ and you hear here sing them, you know exactly what she is on about."

Henley is a fascinating songwriter to me, because when he 'forces' a line you can feel it.. when he comes by it honestly, there is no contrivance, there is just Don sharing his heart.

Take "pretty maids all in a row"... if you don't know about Russ Meyer Movies and the origin of that line, there is a whole richness and context that will be missed. the song can be fine, but the irony of the lyrics totally lost.

In '21' someone was puzzled by the line about the person turning 21 and not having any reason for not wanting to be... well, yeah, not so puzzling to a lot of people... it is similar to the expression "what's not to like?".. essentially elevation by deprecation...

it isn't that the person is saying "I dont want to commit suicide" it is the understated 'western style' understatement of "this ain't half bad"... puzzling if we lack context.... but, the song comes from the album which is an homage to the old west, so western cliches and manners would make sense.

Are we puzzled by "well baby there you stand, with your little head down in your hands." a person could force it and say 'physically it is hard to put your head in your hands while standing." Nonsense. It is figurative language which is both rhythmic and fits the soundscape of the song...

Sometimes lyrics are puzzling, sometimes it is because we lack context and sometimes we don't want it to fit... and sometimes we just don't like the song.

I agree that most artists don't care if folks wanna analyze their lyrics... after all, most literary critics know that the last person to know what his work really means is the artist himself, right?

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 07:42 PM
I agree that most artists don't care if folks wanna analyze their lyrics... after all, most literary critics know that the last person to know what his work really means is the artist himself, right?

And yet your posts seem designed to discourage such analysis.

Freypower
01-17-2010, 08:30 PM
The key feature in puzzling lyrics is their context with the music which is barely mentioned here. Song lyrics are not designed to be apart from the music. I remember hearing Chris McVie (Fleetwood Mac) saying, "God, Stevie's lyrics are impossible to understand when you see them, but once she starts playing that funny little organ and you hear here sing them, you know exactly what she is on about."



I am not a musician and I am therefore unable to analyse why lyrics are effective in the context of the music. But anyone, musician or not, can just take the lyrics on their own and analyse them. If you are saying that you can only analyse lyrics in the context of the music that excludes people like myself from discussing them.

When this topic was revived the line 'I wonder when I'll see my companion again' from A Month Of Sundays was brought up. I cannot argue whether that is effective in its musical context or not, except to say that it sounds tacked on as an afterthought, both musically and lyrically.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 08:33 PM
And yet your posts seem designed to discourage such analysis.

not the case at all... sorry you have concluded that.

it would stand to reason that a puzzling lyrics would invite 'unpuzzling' the lyrics... it is reasonable to me that the best tools for that job would be about songwriting and music and the social/political context of the time the song was written.

So much of popular song lyrics have to do with their chord successions/progressions and how homages are made and subtle contextual cues and clues... Hollywood Waltz is like that. It is ironic in its form and the lyrics embody that irony making the song perfect Henley/Frey wistful and wicked at the same time.


In one of these nights, it is the minor key that informs the song as to what it is... kind of a blues brag song, kind of a seduction song, certainly a dangerous song of pursuit, a nature ballad of sorts where the animal instincts cannot and must not be denied.

in the 'middle 8' of the song... the lyrics on their own are nonsensical. Yet, when you hear the song (and the most amazing Randy OOOh's ever) it all comes clear....

Oo, loneliness will blind you
In between the wrong and the right
Oo, coming right behind you
Swear I'm gonna find you
One of these nights

There is a great song by Julie Gold called 'From a Distance'... in song, she talks about perspective... how from space you could look down (with some really good binoculars or something) and see two people seemingly in an embrace making what appears to be passionate love only to discover that they are in a life or death battle one seeking to kill the other. But from far away, they are very close to being opposite intents for the same action...

No doubt there are bad lyrics and bad songs.. but that failure is not usually to be ferreted out using the tools of, say, poetry. They are different, though related disciplines. I have a friend who is a large animal vet and I kidded him once saying, "large animal, small animal.. what is the diff?" and he got MAD! "They are related and nothing alike...."

In this case, nobody is mad, I"m just saying that I'm not sure if folks are really puzzled at all... I think they are having a go at 'dumb' lyrics that don't add up... and dressing those sophomoric observations up in literary terms to add 'weight' to their arguments. In just about every case I read, unpuzzling the lyric was pretty easy unless you were just 'going for the laugh'... which is just fine...

So, if the thread is 'making fun of lyrics that we're purposefully misunderstanding while establishing our superior academic credentials' okay, I get it.

If it is, what does he mean when he sings "...." because I don't understand it...

that is what I thought it would be... I must have misunderstood.

As it is, I think a person with moderately long hair can throw their head back and both hit the ground and me provided we are both on the ground and she is maybe supporting herself on her elbows after an intimate moment..

That entire song is a series of cultural and political asides and catalogs... it is a reference to Eve, right? the juxtaposition of the earth/mother/innocence/temptation in such a furious back and forth that the song uses the 'innocence' as the very tool of its destruction.... pretty good songwriting!

Hornsby's accompaniment is powerfully in support of the fragmented nature of the song "this and that" a kind of comparison tune to the song that was his contemporary "we didn't start the fire" with a furious catalog of snippets of cultural references to create a context and an ambiguous conclusion parading as the opposite. almost as if Billy Joel knew the things were important but not why or how they could inform us to act moving forward.

Henley seems to be telling us that in our innocence is our lack and in our 'worldliness" we find our pervasive innocence and crave it....

Analysis is a great thing.... I guess what I was reading was reductionist and a misuse of really great tools for the purpose of dismissing words that were thoughtfully written...

The Eagles have written their share of clunkers, but I've found them to be in the minority... most of the songs that were referenced in this thread I thought were pretty misunderstood and the points made that made the songs appear to be flawed... well, they may be flawed but not for those reasons...

One thing I have found is that critics don't like to be criticized themselves.

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 08:54 PM
Have you noticed something, Bender? You are conducting analysis of lyrics as well.

No one is telling you your analysis is not "valid." No one calls your opinions "sophomoric" or "reductionist." No one is attempting to attribute your opinions to maliciousness, or self-promotion, or other negative psychoses. No one is saying their methods of criticism are superior to yours.

I wish you would extend others the same courtesy.... or do you really believe that the lyrical analyses of others in this thread are so inferior to your own?

If so, I'm disappointed. I thought you were more open-minded to the opinions of others than that.


One thing I have found is that critics don't like to be criticized themselves.Indeed.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 09:22 PM
I've struck a nerve with you. Sorry about that.

My criticism is both of the lyrics and the methodology and thought process that some have used in the thread.

There are several accusations in your last post that are simply not in evidence, I only mention it to note that I see it and it isn't accurate.

I would never even consider denying someone's opportunity to express their thoughts... but, I'd also expect that calling that analysis into question when it is counter to my thoughts and analysis would be fair game as well.

I have zero quibble with you disagreeing with me as to my analyses or my motivations to make those comments. They are just ideas after all.

I'm open minded enough and have enough faith in other people to call in to question what they say out of respect for what they had to say. I ignore the people I don't respect.

I see this site as a fan site where folks who like and respect the Eagles gather to discuss a favorite band. When I read this thread, I read it as dismissing some lyrics and calling them puzzling was just code for 'dumb mistakes' to be joked about... okay, fair enough... is that an adequate conclusion?

Either way, the suggestion that I would have an opinion as whether or not someone should be allowed an opinion is not what I wrote nor what I meant. I think if you go back with less emotion, you'll see that. I questioned the value of using literary criticism techniques with songwriting.

I said there was value in knowing the context of the music and the lyrics, not that a lack of that knowledge disqualified a critic.

finally, everyone's opinion has value, but not necessarily the same value... for some folks, qualification for an opinion might be tied to academic credentials, but in the end, the best way I've found for placing a value on an opinion is the evidence provided to support that evidence....

I'll, uh, leave you to it from here.

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 09:39 PM
Well, I'll show you how I formed my apparently mistaken impressions.



After reading this whole thread... It is interesting in that no one makes the distinction between popular songwriting and the type of criticism one would apply to literature or poetry. Applying the rules for one to the other is just not terribly valid.

I read this as you questioning the validity of other analyses in this thread.


it is reasonable to me that the best tools for that job would be about songwriting and music and the social/political context of the time the song was written.

I read this as you arguing that your method of analysis was the best.


In this case, nobody is mad, I"m just saying that I'm not sure if folks are really puzzled at all... I think they are having a go at 'dumb' lyrics that don't add up... and dressing those sophomoric observations up in literary terms to add 'weight' to their arguments. In just about every case I read, unpuzzling the lyric was pretty easy unless you were just 'going for the laugh'... which is just fine...

So, if the thread is 'making fun of lyrics that we're purposefully misunderstanding while establishing our superior academic credentials' okay, I get it.

I read this as attributing negative motivations to those with whom you disagree. The second paragraph I quoted is especially antagonistic. Is this truly what you believe motivates the opinions of others in this thread? Could you quote what remarks led you to such a conclusion as I have with your remarks?


Analysis is a great thing.... I guess what I was reading was reductionist and a misuse of really great tools for the purpose of dismissing words that were thoughtfully written...

I read this as dismissive of the approach others were taking to lyrical analysis.


When I read this thread, I read it as dismissing some lyrics and calling them puzzling was just code for 'dumb mistakes' to be joked about... okay, fair enough... is that an adequate conclusion?

You put "dumb mistakes" in quotations. This implies that someone actually said that in this thread.... yet the only one who said that was you. Maybe it is you who is misunderstanding, who is projecting motivations onto others that simply aren't there. Maybe the only "code" is in your head.

Food for thought.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 09:53 PM
I don't think the citations that you've made say what you think they say.

I'll leave it at that and just 'share the food'.

The use of quotations in internet forums works a little differently than in an essay in my experience. It is used for emphasis or to frame a concept. Not the same as one would use in a classroom, but "generally" understood.

I read a lot of forums and I frequently see folks get upset over perceived tone etc... I've come to kind of wait and see if someone is condescending actually or if it just appears that way... while I'm evaluating, I assume the best.

So, honestly, the 'hair' comments you made... what do you really think as you read back through it... do you still think that it is 'physically difficult' (paraphrasing probably)....

food for thought!

sodascouts
01-17-2010, 10:01 PM
I don't think the citations that you've made say what you think they say.

I'll leave it at that and just 'share the food'.

The use of quotations in internet forums works a little differently than in an essay in my experience. It is used for emphasis or to frame a concept. Not the same as one would use in a classroom, but "generally" understood.

I read a lot of forums and I frequently see folks get upset over perceived tone etc... I've come to kind of wait and see if someone is condescending actually or if it just appears that way... while I'm evaluating, I assume the best.

So, honestly, the 'hair' comments you made... what do you really think as you read back through it... do you still think that it is 'physically difficult' (paraphrasing probably)....

food for thought!

If you read the discussion about the hair comments, you'll see that I actually listened to people who disagreed and didn't call into question the validity of their opinion or project negative motives onto them. I even tried to understand where they were coming from.

I guess that's where you and I differ.

bernie's bender
01-17-2010, 10:13 PM
If you read the discussion about the hair comments, you'll see that I actually listened to people who disagreed and didn't call into question the validity of their opinion or project negative motives onto them. I even tried to understand where they were coming from.

I guess that's where you and I differ.

you don't think I'm listening?

I'm just not buying.

Fan_For_Life
01-18-2010, 12:32 PM
It is my understanding that serious lyricists don't add words just to fill a spot in a verse. Except for words such as baby or something simple like that.

sodascouts
01-18-2010, 02:19 PM
I agree, FFL. And here's another lyric I'm curious about. It has the extra complication of being different from another version:

Song: Doolin-Dalton
Lyrics: 'Til your shadow sets you free

Now, the context is:
Better keep on movin', Doolin-Dalton
'Til your shadow sets you free
If you're fast, and if you're lucky
You will never see that hangin' tree
(full song lyrics here (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/eagles/desperado/doolindalton.htm))

But when JD Souther, a co-writer, sings the line he says:
"'Til your killers set you free"

So, do you think "shadow" is just a synonym for "killer" in the sense that the law/bounty hunter is "shadowing" them and will eventually kill them? Or is there an extra nuance in the changed word? I'd love to hear some thoughts on it, as I think it's an intriguing line. There are a couple other differences, too, which we can also talk about - for instance, JD says "runnin'" instead of "movin'" in the above context.

sodascouts
01-18-2010, 02:24 PM
BTW, if you'd like to hear JD's rendition, it's on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0-24WWc3tQ

bernie's bender
01-18-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree, FFL. And here's another lyric I'm curious about. It has the extra complication of being different from another version:

Song: Doolin-Dalton
Lyrics: 'Til your shadow sets you free

Now, the context is:
Better keep on movin', Doolin-Dalton
'Til your shadow sets you free
If you're fast, and if you're lucky
You will never see that hangin' tree
(full song lyrics here (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/eagles/desperado/doolindalton.htm))

But when JD Souther, a co-writer, sings the line he says:
"'Til your killers set you free"

So, do you think "shadow" is just a synonym for "killer" in the sense that the law/bounty hunter is "shadowing" them and will eventually kill them? Or is there an extra nuance in the changed word? I'd love to hear some thoughts on it, as I think it's an intriguing line. There are a couple other differences, too, which we can also talk about - for instance, JD says "runnin'" instead of "movin'" in the above context.

I'd bet that they were trying to 'soften' it by using shadow instead of killer.

the additional benefit is that the harmony sounds better with the 'Aa' and the 'Oh' than 'ih'... their sound has a lot to do with soaring harmonies and ohhs and aahs are almost a trademark for them (the way they do them)

They were shooting for commercial hits.. and using words like "killer" were probably thought through and they probablys sought something softer.

the 'movin' line... same thing. oooh... is so much more 'eagley'....

if we listen to other 'runnin' songs like 'it keeps you runnin' or mtb's 'runnin like the wind' the first relies on a very measured set of beats in the chorus and kind of a barrelhouse piano approach on the verses... the song kind of sounds disjointed and while it is memorable, it isn't that smooth so cal high harmony type thing.... the MTB song is a really good song... but again, that soft U sound is tough to sing harmony on.

JD was always the lone wolf and I think he wanted a harder edge in his performances and in his persona... so, I think he was attracted to more stark and violent imagery... which made his audience smaller, but highly devoted... The Eagles are kind of Sam Elliot westerns and JD more of the "No country for old men" style.. both are great, but different kinds of aims...

I love both versions. Oh, and I think you are exactly right on your 'shadow' idea.

Ive always been a dreamer
01-18-2010, 03:54 PM
Whenever I analyze lyrics, I usually intend to think of them in the broadest possible sense to allow for just about any interpretation that someone wants to apply to them. What one person takes from them may be very different from someone else. There usually isn't a right or wrong answer, which is why many good lyrics are ambiguious. These Doolin'-Dalton lyrics are no exception. I see the "shadow" as being whatever may be pursuing or chasing them, whether it be physical or mental. The implication here being that they must keep moving (or running or changing) to set themselves free of their physical pursuers and/or their internal demons.

bernie's bender
01-18-2010, 04:00 PM
that makes sense... but, the Doolin's were historical figures, right? I mean, what they wrote about in the song was based in actual fact. Most of the songs on that record had ties to events that actually took place and were in books about the west...

while I'm sure the eagles and JD took artistic license with trying to grasp the internal machinations of the gang member's psyches.. they (the gang) were all real people. I've had several friends who did not know that about this record... it was truly a concept album a la Sgt Peppers or Tommy.

sodascouts
01-18-2010, 04:56 PM
I'd bet that they were trying to 'soften' it by using shadow instead of killer.

I understand. Even in 2003, under pressure from the record company, Lindsey Buckingham had to change the lyrics to "Peacekeeper" from "Take no prisoners, only kill" to "Take no prisoners, break their will" in order to make the song more palatable as a single. Unfortunately, the concession made the lyrics no longer effective, IMHO.



There usually isn't a right or wrong answer

Exactly - we gotta keep an open mind to all viewpoints.


I see the "shadow" as being whatever may be pursuing or chasing them, whether it be physical or mental. The implication here being that they must keep moving (or running or changing) to set themselves free of their physical pursuers and/or their internal demons.

I did initially consider the possibility that the "shadow" was also an internal demon that led to the kind of self-sabotage we see as a theme in "Desperado," but that didn't seem to work with the "set you free" part.... it seems they would be set free FROM their internal demons, not be set free BY them... unless the phrase is ironic. Then I can see it working. Interesting!

Ive always been a dreamer
01-18-2010, 05:44 PM
Well, soda – I see what you are saying here, but I think the same would also apply to the physical “shadow”. Whether you say "by" or "from", I don’t think it is likely that their pursuers are going to them free, so I do think there is a bit of irony involved here. That’s why turned it around and said that they have “to set themselves free of their physical pursuers and/or their internal demons”.

sodascouts
01-18-2010, 05:59 PM
Well, soda – I see what you are saying here, but I think the same would also apply to the physical “shadow”. Whether you say "by" or "from", I don’t think it is likely that their pursuers are going to them free, so I do think there is a bit of irony involved here.

I figure the freedom their physical pursuers could give them was death. Seeing death as a relief is indeed ironic but I think it comes from them just being so tired of running, or being constantly on the move and unable to put down roots - death was the only certain way that would end.

Interestingly, the historical Bill Doolin got so tired of running that he actually attempted to turn himself in! He tried to cut a deal in 1895 through his lawyers (yes, even those wild west outlaws had lawyers) - he'd turn himself in if the marshal promised to be lenient. Unfortunately for Doolin, the marshal wasn't interested in being lenient. He told Doolin "No deal."

Instead, lawmen and bounty hunters interested in the $5000 "dead or alive" reward continued to relentlessly pursue Doolin. In 1896, their persistence paid off. Marshal Thomas and his posse waited at the home of Doolin's wife after getting a tip that he was going to try to flee the Oklahoma territory with her and their child. Sure enough, Doolin came to get his family - and walked straight into an ambush where he was shot and killed. He was 38.

Freypower
01-19-2010, 06:04 PM
I have a 'puzzling lyric'. From Business As Usual:

A barrel of monkeys
A band of renown
But business as usual
Is breakin' me down

I have never understood the phrase 'barrel of monkeys'. Wikipedia says it refers to 'good natured pandemonium'. I had the actual game where you have to link the plastic monkeys' tails together when I was a kid. I don't know what he means by it here (I certainly don't think he's referring to anything 'good natured'). Then he goes on to say 'a band of renown' presumably referring to the Eagles. I suppose the last part is saying something about how hard it can be to keep it going. The first two lines quoted appear to have nothing whatever to do with the rest of the song. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

sodascouts
01-19-2010, 06:26 PM
Good question.

I think it's fair to assume the "Band of Renown" is the Eagles, so we gotta figure out what it is about them Henley is trying to say by implicitly comparing the band to a "barrel of monkeys."

It comes after this verse:
Business as usual
Day after day
Business as usual
Feel like walking away

So, you could interpret this as Henley perhaps getting tired of participating in the "business" of the Eagles.

I took the "Barrel of monkeys" as referring to the game and not the expression "more fun than a barrel of monkeys" because of the contextually negative connotation (although it could be ironic).

So, let's look at the game. Plastic, fake looking creatures are hooked together artificially in a chain. When the chain is broken, you lose.

Perhaps this is a characterization of the business side of the Eagles... that the business aspect has taken over to the degree that their connection has become tenuous and artificial, maintained for the sake of money (if it's broken, you lose) instead of art. In this scenario, they're not having fun anymore, which is the ironic twist about using that phrase - it works both ways. Since they're performers, you can add to that the traditional association of performing monkeys as mindless slaves to the desires of the crowd and the commands of their taskmaster, taking no pleasure in the performance themselves but compelled to do it... Since the Eagles don't need the money to survive, does the compulsion stem from an emotional need? Pride? Avarice? Fear? A sense of obligation, an inability to let go of the lifestyle, an addiction to the charge of having thousands of people at your feet screaming for you? It all adds up to a pretty dysfunctional situation.

Pretty harsh, but it's an arguable interp, I think.

GettheLeadonOut!!
01-19-2010, 06:32 PM
One lyric that puzzles me, not because of its meaning but just because it's so grammatically erroneous, is "Try and Love Again". Now I know Randy was never "university material" but you'd think someone as pedantic about the English language as Henley would tell him it should be "Try to Love Again".

or perhaps Randy did it intentionally and there is a deeper meaning...

Freypower
01-19-2010, 06:37 PM
Try 'and' Love Again is easier to sing. It scans better. Every time I hear the song The First Cut Is The Deepest (written by Cat Stevens but I'm most familiar with the Rod Stewart version) and he sings 'but if you want I'll try to love again' I think 'NO!! Try AND Love Again'!

Thanks for the response, Soda. I am surpirse that Glenn didn't veto that if your interpretation is correct because it seems so negative.

sodascouts
01-19-2010, 07:05 PM
One lyric that puzzles me, not because of its meaning but just because it's so grammatically erroneous, is "Try and Love Again". Now I know Randy was never "university material" but you'd think someone as pedantic about the English language as Henley would tell him it should be "Try to Love Again".

Wasn't "try and" kind of a slang way to say "try to" back then? I don't see a deeper meaning but I could be wrong.

bernie's bender
01-19-2010, 07:13 PM
I think the lyric is


"A barrel of monkeys
or A band of renown
But business as usual
Is breakin' me down"


the song in general is the kind of typical kind of henley saw about how the corporate/capitalist 'machine' of commerce takes the souls from otherwise 'good men'.

nothing else in the song really relates to the Eagles, but I guess the word band could signify that they are talking about themselves... to me, that is pretty jarring because the song isn't really about the band at all and using the band as an 'aside' doesn't sound that plausible to me.... it could be...

I'd interpret it as 'band' as being like 'band of brothers', a gang or group...

the capitalists/corporate monkeys wreaking havoc and Henley NOT finding it very entertaining or pleasant at all...

If I were grading the guys... I'd probably tell them that the jarring nature of colloquial to elevated language (renown? really?) is something to be carefully considered...

On the try and love again thing... I always took it to be both non grammatical and that Randy was trying (ha!) to emphasize both acts...

the act of trying AND the act of loving... uh, again.

that when he was all alone and had kind of given up in general... he was now compelled to both 'try' and to 'love' again.

or not.

GlennLover
01-19-2010, 07:31 PM
I wonder if Don took the line "band of renown" from "Les Brown & His Band of Renown" who used to play on the Dean Martin Show many years ago? (I was a mere child when it was on, honest).

Freypower
01-19-2010, 07:49 PM
I looked at the lyric booklet and BAU is written as 'a barrel of monkeys/a band of renown'. There's no 'or' and I don't hear the word being sung.

bernie's bender
01-19-2010, 07:55 PM
I looked at the lyric booklet and BAU is written as 'a barrel of monkeys/a band of renown'. There's no 'or' and I don't hear the word being sung.

you're probably right, I relied on the usual sources which can be wrong.

sodascouts
01-19-2010, 10:19 PM
I typed that one wrong on my lyrics page, I'm ashamed to admit! I comfort myself that I at least had it right on my liner notes transcription (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/eagles/eden/linernotes.htm). It isn't the first mistake in my lyrics pages and won't be the last, I'm sure, but I'll change it ASAP.

sodascouts
01-19-2010, 11:16 PM
I wonder if Don took the line "band of renown" from "Les Brown & His Band of Renown" who used to play on the Dean Martin Show many years ago? (I was a mere child when it was on, honest).

My dad had more than one of their albums, I think. I can see that.

Freypower
01-20-2010, 07:08 PM
Well, I am glad we now have a real life reference for it, because I still think it's a very awkward line (although not nearly as bad as 'heavily bills').

GlennLover
01-20-2010, 09:27 PM
Well, I am glad we now have a real life reference for it, because I still think it's a very awkward line (although not nearly as bad as 'heavily bills').

Yes, I still can't understand how Don allowed "heavily".

sodascouts
01-20-2010, 09:31 PM
It really is awkward, isn't it? I used to think it was "they paid Heavenly bills" - it didn't really make sense but it was the only adjective I could think of - it never occurred to me they'd put an adverb there! One of their clumsiest lyrics, IMHO, but nobody's perfect.

Ive always been a dreamer
01-21-2010, 01:57 AM
I meant to ask this when it came up before, but has it ever been verified that the lyric here is "heavily" bills? I'm just wondering because that just doesn't make any sense, IMO. To me, "heavenly" bills is much more plausible - there are several expression like "out of this world", "up to the sky", "up to the heavens", or "the sky's the limit" that would make this fit.

Brooke
01-21-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm with you dreamer on this dreamer. I've always thought it was "heavenly bills". That can make sense, to me.

We're back on track today-twins separated at birth! :laugh:

sodascouts
01-21-2010, 01:18 PM
It's "heavily" in my Hotel California songbook. Of course, those can be wrong, too.

bernie's bender
01-21-2010, 01:55 PM
It's "heavily" in my Hotel California songbook. Of course, those can be wrong, too.

there are a bunch of 'music' mistakes in that book... but, I just listened to that line several times and then put it in the amazing slow downer (software for learning musical parts) and, you know what... I think it is 'heavily'....

I remember a few years ago our band started doing an old Charlie Rich song "Rollin' with the Flow" and there is a line that the singer and I had always done "I've got my angel raising kids" (like for 25 years or more) and the bass player (new to country music and who'd never heard the song) said, "That ain't the lyric boys." Man, we argued (smiling, but 'dug in') for a couple of hours off and on at the gig...

the next day, I sat down and slowed that song down and dadgum it, he was right... the line is "While guys my age are raising kids."

I've told about 10 guys who I've played with that story and they all thought it was "I've got my angel raising kids" and they laugh and say "i'm not sure I could relearn it!"

I always thought it was 'heavenly' too, but I think it is heavily....

That song is a great illustration of how song lyrics can make pretty bad poetry... it is chock full of juxtapositions and 'jarring' images which sound fine with Felder and Walsh punctuating with nasty jabs of guitar... but as a guy I used to unload trucks of amps and guitars etc would say, "that don't make no sense noway."

it is almost Yoda speech "they paid heavily bills." just goes to show that the music and the flow of the singing (and mass quantities of cocaine and not enough sleep) will translate into a great song that has some phrases that an english teacher would arch an eyebrow over.

Brooke
01-21-2010, 02:28 PM
I wish we could just ask Don or Glenn or the songwriter and they would tell us!

Dream on!

sodascouts
01-21-2010, 02:58 PM
there are a bunch of 'music' mistakes in that book...

This reminds me of when my brother-in-law, who's a decent guitar player and is part of the band at his church, printed off some tabs for "Peaceful Easy Feeling" from a tab site. We were gonna have a "karaoke night" at his place - he'd bought a new sound system - and he knows I like the Eagles so he was going to strum a few songs while I sang them.

So, we're going along and we get to "And I know you won't let me down." When he shifted the chord for "down," it didn't sound right. I stopped and said, "No, that's not right."

He argued, "But the tab sheet says it's that chord."

I could hear the "I'm the musician Nancy" argument starting to form, so I replied, "I'm sure you're reading your tabs right, but believe me, I've listened to this song hundreds of times, and that's not the right chord. You listen to the recorded version closely and you'll hear the same thing."

That convinced him.

In the end, I'd trust my ear! But then again, trusting my ear led me to put "Or band of renown" for "Business As Usual" and we all know how that turned out.... :lol:

sodascouts
01-21-2010, 03:30 PM
it is almost Yoda speech "they paid heavily bills."

Star Wars is one of my favorite movies, and as an avid fan of the entire original trilogy (not the bogus new crappy trilogy), I must say that Yoda diction would make this lyric "bills heavily they paid."

:saberfight:

"Extreme science fiction geek you are, Nancy! Pathetic this post is!" ;)

bernie's bender
01-21-2010, 03:40 PM
I happily defer to your Yoda knowledge.

We have a guest singer coming in to sing with us next week and we worked up the songs she wants to sing (she is very good) and "Blue" the leann rimes song is one of them...

same thing... our main singer brought charts for it and they are wrong. I could tell he was going to argue about it, but since he plays fiddle... I just nodded at the bass player and other guitar player and we played it 'right' after about 3 miscues...

the fiddle player grinned broadly and said, "seeeeeeeee...." I just nodded.

I had a meeting at work a couple of weeks before christmas and a couple of the young whippersnappers asked me a question about something (a product) that I worked on in late 2001... it was kind of like asking Don and Glenn about the lyric thing... I just kind of shrugged and told them anything I said would be a lie, I couldn't remember why we did what we did... I just remember that we did (kinda)