PDA

View Full Version : Arizona's New Law On Illegal Immigration



pueblo47
05-18-2010, 08:27 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_immigration_cops_divided

Talk about opening a can of worms!

cynd1231
05-18-2010, 09:38 AM
The controversy is only going to grow on this issue, especially down here in the Southwest sector of the country. Many of my friends and coworkers here in Albuquerque were actually born and raised right here and are US citizens by birth. Yet they stand to be among the many who will end up being 'profiled' based on their heritage alone. While there is a huge concern about the number of people crossing the border to the south and coming into our country 'under the radar', in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California there is a vast population of people who are of Hispanic descent INCLUDING a large number of ELECTED OFFICIALS. In fact, the legal Hispanic population in New Mexico is such that I'M considered a minority here! It is beyond my comprehension how they can believe this law isn't going to result in a great deal of profiling that will result in countless lawsuits! While I feel we need to do SOMETHING to stem the flow of people coming into the States illegally, I seriously doubt this is the answer and foresee a huge amount of legal action resulting from wrongful stops by law enforcement. Add to that the large number of LEGAL Hispanics who are members of our law enforecement agencies in this part of the country and you've got a recipe for disaster! I would say that easily 50% of the Albuquerque Police Department is comprised of people with Hispanic roots but it doesn't hinder their ability to do their job!!!!!

The writer of the news article is absolutely right that the commission of crimes isn't limited to minorities and illegals. Neither is it regionally restricted to this part of the country. This law in Arizona has thrust the Southwest into the forefront of the news and I have no doubt it's going to remain in the headlines for a long time to come. With the economic problems we're facing in this country (California has announced today they anticipate the layoff and/or furlough of 600,000 state employees), we've got much bigger fish to fry. People tend to overlook the fact that these 'illegals' are the very people who harvest the crops that put food on our tables and they're hard-working people who are thrilled to have the job. How many of us would be willing to go out and toil in the fields to feed our families and pay our bills after years in cushy jobs in fancy offices with air conditioning and runs to Starbucks for a $6 cup of coffee? I haven't heard a single story about any Wall Street reject clamoring to get his hands dirty and we WON'T because they think they are too good for such honest work!!!

I think that all politicians should be required to 'walk the walk' before they even consider this sort of legislation. I suspect they'd think twice about some things if they had to actually LIVE it first hand and get a taste of what they propose to subject others to!

tbs fanatic
05-18-2010, 10:44 AM
It's crazy. Arizona is just heading for a whole lot of grief and it will be 'expensive grief' which the Arizona taxpayer will ultimately have to pay for.

MikeA
05-18-2010, 11:03 AM
Its' a mess...tis the truth!

Gotta do something, but I don't know if what Arizona is doing is the answer.

thelongrun
05-18-2010, 02:45 PM
My my... friends being a Mexican Arizona's neighbor (a true friend and fan of Arizona's people and a veeery regular visitor, with family of my own over there).... you can't expect me to miss this... As a matter of fact I will get back to you because right now I am at Work in my Air conditoned private:shock: and I wanna take my time. Now allow me to say I agree with Cynd1231, you nailed it.

thelongrun
05-18-2010, 06:07 PM
Run, I just opened this thread for debate and your opinions are greatly welcomed and appreciated. We need to hear from the opposite side to help us try to understand better. All I can do is pass on what I get from the gang in AZ and NM.

Sure, I get you and I'll be glad to. As our friends already said, is a can of worms, and a mess already... I am not a diehardsidetaking on this. I love my Country Mexico and I care for my Countrymen as I also like and care -and I mean it- the USA people.

There are kind good people and doublemoral crap persons on both sides.
Politicians as start, as well Criminal interests (aka Drugs) on this matter, in both sides. Workers shouldn't have nothing to do.

MikeA
05-18-2010, 07:15 PM
I have to look at this as a more black/white issue with few shades of grey. The drug and arms runners....the law is pretty straight forward on that....catch them, shoot it out with them if neccessary and jail the rest. I can't scrape up a lot of sympathy for them.

Those coming into the country illegally....well, that is like that ad our cable company had about cable theft. Their illustration was a line in a grocery store. A guy is checking out and runs up a $25.00 bill or something like that. He tells the checker to shove it when told the total and just walked out of the store without paying. The checker turns to the next person in line and says, "Well, looks like I'll just have to add $25 to your total because he didn't pay."

I don't know what financial assistance and medical care the "illegals" are getting. I've heard some pretty extreme tales...and they may be all tales! But one thing is for certain, if they are working, they are doing so with under the table pay and are not taxed on it. Nor are they contributing to an already hurting Social Security Fund.

And, if they are NOT working, then WHAT are they doing to make money to survive on?

That there are millions who are here in the States LEGALLY has to make it difficult to identify and take action against those who are cheating the system. I'm sure that many of these people are very good people who are desparate....I wish we could fix the World's Problems. But we can't. We usually do more harm than good when we try! But we Citizens and Legal Imigrants are in a desparate situation too and while it may not be as desparate as that of some of our Mexican Neighbors, it could get that way in a hurry...This is a situation that in itself is desparate. I cannot imagine action that would solve this unfortunate situation. All Out Border War? God I hope not.

As for Arizona....I don't know whether to really get behind the Law they are promoting or not. I'm not that smart. But they ARE trying to do something and that is a lot more than has been done in the past. I'd say that if someone has a better idea, present it and lets get this mess cleaned up.

bernie's bender
05-19-2010, 01:58 PM
The problem is very difficult and not simple. If anyone tells you it is simple, they are just not looking at all the parts (or separate the parts to win an argument.)

Arizona is desperate. The violence, kidnapping etc has made Phoenix and Tucson very dangerous places. El Paso, Tx is a very very dangerous place. Part of this is the drug war and the pressure being brought in Mx by their government. Their president was quoted recently as saying the violence and bloodshed was a sign of progress and that all of it was a sign that they are starting to make progress in breaking up the cartels.

But, that is causing tremendous instability in the US. That is just one piece of the problem. The very real concern of terrorists coming into the country illegally and the influx of russian organized crime and eastern bloc organized crime is at least as big a threat as undocumented workers. Those issues don't get the focus they deserve.

We'd think that after all the "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall" reality that we know... the failure of the maginot line, the wall thing does not work.

the sweep and clear tactics don't work for long. martial law is only effective for 30 days. we know this stuff and we don't learn from it and we get desperate and we make the same mistakes.

the only answer to the violence and the influx of undocumented workers probably sits within equity and equalization. when we remove the money from the drugs (and when we stop demanding so many illegal drugs!) and when folks can earn a decent living in their home countries, they'll stay home.

How do we get there? Quit taking drugs. Encourage your friends and family. Just stop it. If we stopped smoking pot and snorting coke and shooting up, there would be no need for the drug trade. Who takes these drugs? We do. Our families do. Our friends do.

My grandfather was an undocumented worker (illegal alien)... he was a 'wet back' who snuck across the texas border. He later became a citizen, he worked hard all his life, he paid social security, he fought in a war for our country.... all he wanted was an opportunity to do better, to contribute and be part of something.

Until the Mx people can get an equal shake in their country to what we have in ours... they will come to make their lives and their families lives better....

If I were poor and I had a family to take care of... and the best opportunity I had to make things better for my family and my future involved me sneaking into a neighboring country to do jobs that in many cases are unwanted by the general populace and that provided that opportunity for my family.... I'd do it without hesitation.

If you are a grower in California or Arizona and you need to get your fruit in... the chances that you will have enough labor available and willing to work for you at a cost that would allow you to afford to grow and produce fruit is zero. What happens is you use a labor broker and he assumes the 'risk' and you contract to him at the going union rate and your fruit gets picked and people buy it at 'everyday low prices'....

again, this issue isn't simple, I feel nothing but sorrow for the folks in Arizona who felt the need to put the law forward, I feel sorry for the LEO's who will have to enforce it, I feel sorry for the folks who will be harmed by it.... but, maybe, just maybe, we'll start to pay attention to the whole problem and maybe, just maybe we'll all start to own our part of it and get a resolution that can allow us to live in peace.

tequila girl
05-19-2010, 05:01 PM
Here's another one from Phoenix:



In the last two years he has found 17 dead bodies and two Koran bibles.

Another rancher testified that daily drugs are brought across his ranch in a militaryoperation. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, 1/2 mile behind are the guards fully armed, 1/2 mile behind them are the drugs, behind the drugs 1/2 mile are more guards.These people are violent and they will kill anyone who gets in the way. This was not the only rancher we heard that day that talked about the drug trains.

One man told of two illegal's who came upon his property one shot in the back and the other in the arm by the drug runners who had forced them to carry the drugs and then shot them. Daily they listen to gun fire during the night it is not safe to leave his family alone on the ranch and they can't leave the ranch for fear of nothing being left when they come back.

Wow.... I don't know a lot about the United States' problems Re: "Imigrants" we have them here too, but that is astounding!! I really am lost for words:-(

AzEaglesFan
05-20-2010, 04:21 AM
Just a short time before the law was passed a rancher near the border was shot and killed on his property, they think by drug runners. Around the same time a Pinal County Deputy came across some drug runners in the desert and they shot him with an AK47 only thing that saved him was his bullet proof vest. They find bodies in the desert where illegals have paid what is called a coyote to get them into Arizona and then the coyote leaves them in the desert to die. We also have what they call drop houses. They have found 20 or 30 people begin held in a small room until they can get more money to release them. Something has to be done, but I don't know that this law is the answer or just something else to cause more trouble. Unless it is blocked and it could be, it takes effect in July. Our son is a deputy in another state and he is sure hoping that they don't follow Arizona and pass the same law there. His job is tough enough as it is.

thelongrun
05-20-2010, 01:49 PM
This comment is from the NM clan.


"From what I've heard people will only be checked when they are stopped for a lawful reason. At that time they have to prove citizenship. I understand they can't just stop someone and ask for citizenship. Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens."

We all know that there will be some law enforcement officials who will abuse their authority and that's where the trouble will come from. JMO.....

That's exactly the point why some are against this Law, because allows, empowers any Authoritie even local Police to stop any person without a proper reason but to ask about papers and status, all because of their skin color, race, looks, you know. That's wrong.

thelongrun
05-21-2010, 08:54 PM
The sad bottomline of this is, this scandal and fire is all about the Re-election of the Governor. She's triying to catch the Right wing of AZ politicians and powers and conserv. people, and Once the campaigns and elections are over -who ever wins wich I believe will no te Republicans- this will be history. The issue will continue I mean the problem will still be there, but should be treated as it must be: Between neighbors and historical friends. Boy Teddy Kenneddy is much missed these Days!

bernie's bender
05-23-2010, 04:18 PM
20 years ago Baylor University built a huge football stadium. One of the things they touted was that the grandstand was taller than their arch rival Texas Christian University.

Texas Christian responded by remodeling their grandstand to be like 4 feet taller than Baylor's.

I wish we could stop all the grandstanding and spend out time and energies on the people (on all sides of the issue) to come to a policy and a set of rules that we could live with and prosper mutually.

I think the boycotting thing has passed its time for usefulness and municipalities and states have no business to waste the people's time and resources on such efforts.

Public Utilities officials are there to serve the public and not make threats idle or otherwise. We need a return to professional behavior on all fronts and most of all, we need help with this issue and help that doesn't include crushing people on all sides to make some kind of political talking point.

thelongrun
05-24-2010, 02:34 PM
20 years ago Baylor University built a huge football stadium. One of the things they touted was that the grandstand was taller than their arch rival Texas Christian University.

Texas Christian responded by remodeling their grandstand to be like 4 feet taller than Baylor's.

I wish we could stop all the grandstanding and spend out time and energies on the people (on all sides of the issue) to come to a policy and a set of rules that we could live with and prosper mutually.

I think the boycotting thing has passed its time for usefulness and municipalities and states have no business to waste the people's time and resources on such efforts.

Public Utilities officials are there to serve the public and not make threats idle or otherwise. We need a return to professional behavior on all fronts and most of all, we need help with this issue and help that doesn't include crushing people on all sides to make some kind of political talking point.

I agree. As somebody said, there's lots of grays (people, persons involved and suffering) but in the sense BB says, this should be a black and white issue. By the way this may surprise you but I don't support any Boicot. It's a wrong move, regardless where they come from. As a result, nothing good will come of those and wrong feelings could born there (More woord to the fire). My best to all.

Ive always been a dreamer
05-27-2010, 09:51 PM
Well, since I have been busy in other areas of the board lately, I’ve only been skimming this thread, and haven’t had time to reply. However, tonight I reviewed it again, and this has been an interesting discussion. As I read various posts, I was thinking to myself “Yep – I agree with everything that person said”. I realized there were strong opinions on every side of the issues here, but again, I pretty much found myself agreeing with practically everything written. It only made me realize how difficult and complicated this issue really is. There really are so many gray areas that it’s no wonder we don’t have all the answers. I hope we can figure this out one day soon, but I’m not convinced the law that was passed in Arizona is the solution.

thelongrun
05-28-2010, 02:31 PM
The sad bottomline of this is, this scandal and fire is all about the Re-election of the Governor. She's triying to catch the Right wing of AZ politicians and powers and conserv. people, and Once the campaigns and elections are over -who ever wins wich I believe will no te Republicans- this will be history. The issue will continue I mean the problem will still be there, but should be treated as it must be: Between neighbors and historical friends. Boy Teddy Kenneddy is much missed these Days!



Sorry, I meant McCain reelection. By the way as hard and difficult this issue is, there's a man from whose severeal speachs I have seen and listened gives me nothing but hope: Obama. He nails it everytime. What a privilege has the USA people (and others like the neighborghs) to have such a man serving the Country.

I admire the USA, and that means the people, and now and then, some of the Leaders. As a matter of fact is a Country founded in inmigration. Italian, Irish, Mexican, German, from Africa, Korean....you name it. I know I know: Those did it legally, by the Law.

Anyway, I remember now and then World War II and how America stand (past stood?), how man and women, how President(s) fought the Nazis... Boy, God bless. Mexicans troops were there at USA's side . In a humble way because of the humble background (Aka no Economic power), anyway, wich brings me this thought:

I wanna fool a little, dream a little? I magine this, picture this. Some Day in 2011, a cruel Terrorist trap is set to go in some major City . Almost does. But in a brave act, some poor Mexican Wetback stops it, saving hundreds maybe more lifes at cost of his own. Nation wide the Media News tells the whole storie. That man leaves a young wife and 2 little kids, no papers. I wonder how will diehard defenders of this Law and ideas will think then.

That's sounds... like a Holywood Movie. But such stories brief ones, little ones but thousands may be happening right now and has been from long time ago. Stories of hope and the strugle for being better persons, as a start trying to give a better life to their loved ones.

I must say by the way, we have to learn too. We are... wrong too. Mexico is not that fear either with Central America people who enter our South border.

I hope for the Day this can be solved, all over the World, and we must hurry before Armaggedon comes:brickwall:meaning Politicians, Congress and Governments are not doing and haven't do the job for Decades. Obama leadership may be the answer.

sodascouts
05-29-2010, 01:43 PM
That's exactly the point why some are against this Law, because allows, empowers any Authoritie even local Police to stop any person without a proper reason but to ask about papers and status, all because of their skin color, race, looks, you know. That's wrong.

thelongrun, the bill specifically prohibits that in writing. You can say "Well, it doesn't matter what the bill says, the police will abuse it" but couldn't you say that about ANY law?

And I don't understand why so many seem to believe that Arizona's police officers, many of whom are Hispanic themselves, are chomping at the bit to harass anyone of Latin descent using this law.

thelongrun
05-29-2010, 08:50 PM
thelongrun, the bill specifically prohibits that in writing. You can say "Well, it doesn't matter what the bill says, the police will abuse it" but couldn't you say that about ANY law?

And I don't understand why so many seem to believe that Arizona's police officers, many of whom are Hispanic themselves, are chomping at the bit to harass anyone of Latin descent using this law.

Dear Soda if the bill now specifically prohibits that in writing is because the bill was changed, reformed either the Governor made a statment in that sense, prohibiting because the reactions, but the bill was born originally that way.

If I get you right, let me say IMO police officers are not very happy about this law "new job" they have or may have now, IMO they show more common sense than the Governor herself, but when this comes they will be obli.. you know. On the other hand as I said somwhere here, white Officers ironically pretty often are nicer persons towards hispanics than hispanics Officers themselves... I know that... Yeah, I dont't gei it either.:headscratch:

bernie's bender
06-03-2010, 10:09 PM
There are some really unanticipated things going on in AZ from the law.

I actually worked with our folks yesterday (was it yesterday? the last few weeks have been crazy!) from Arizona and it seems the schools are putting up signs (in spanish) letting families know that they will not be checking id's and that they will discourage any leo's from visiting campus for any purpose that would lead to it.

What I was told by our metrics folks is that they are expecting between 100K and 160K fewer kids in the schools next year because their parents are afraid.

Again, this is just COMPLICATED. On one hand, I want every child regardless of where they come from to get an education... but, the burden of the cost of education is an issue that has to be addressed.

Who gets hurt? Well, we all do. Kids without educations are a huge drag on the economy! The kids get hurt. Teachers are being laid off, so it hurts them...

I feel genuinely sorry for everyone in AZ on all sides of this issue. Lots of suffering... I am holding out hope that we can work up a solution that will help make life better for everyone!

EagleLady
06-05-2010, 04:01 PM
It's important because there could be new developments as time goes on.

TimothyBFan
06-07-2010, 09:24 AM
This is an email I received this morning from my aunt.


How would you like to be living in a state held hostage by Political Correctness.
Hey everyone out there!


We, in Arizona, know you're boycotting us -- but you really should come out here and see our Beautiful Sonoran Desert.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00111.jpg


This is on an 'illegal super - highway' from Mexico to the USA (Tucson) used by human smugglers.

This area is located in a wash, approximately 1.5 miles long, just south of Tucson. If a flood came, all of this would be washed to the river and then onto the sea.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00222.jpg


It is estimated that over 5,000 discarded backpacks are in the wash. Countless water containers, food wrappers, clothing, feces, including thousands of soiled diapers.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00333.jpg


As we kept walking down the wash, we thought for sure it was going to end, but around every corner was more and more trash!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00444.jpg


And of course the trail leading out of the wash in our city, heads directly NORTH into Tucson, then leads to your town tomorrow.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00555.jpg

They've already come through here. Isn't Arizona just beautiful, America? Why would you boycott us?

Our desert has basically been turned into a landfill.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/image00666.jpg

MikeA
06-07-2010, 09:46 AM
I had seen that photo journal before Willie, and can scarcely believe what the AZ folks down there are having to deal with.

sodascouts
06-07-2010, 12:06 PM
I understand that the people who cooked up "Let's boycott Arizona" have their hearts in the right place (for the most part - some politicians are just using this for their own benefit), but things like those images illustrate how easy it is to minimize something that you're not having to deal with personally. I hate boycotts anyway - punishing the people for what their politicians did (presumably in hopes of forcing the people to do what you want and vote out the politicians you don't like) - it doesn't seem right to me.

bernie's bender
06-07-2010, 12:59 PM
My folks are growers not too far from the border... (in CA)

A bunch of messy clothes is, well, a mess, but that is really the least of it....

The full photo essay explains exactly what and why the folks leave the clothes... but, the big question is why do they need to?

These folks aren't coming here and starving.... they are getting jobs in businesses run by people we know and support. I'd bet nearly every person on this board visits a place at least once a week that has illegal immigrants working there... We are all part of the problem and the solution.

Boycotting is a funny thing. The boycotts some folks feel are totally justified other folks think are ridiculous (Dixie Chicks? Really?) I remember the grape boycotts of my childhood. The short hoe boycotts of my teens... to help the underpaid and dangerous conditions for farm workers...

My folks always paid UFW wages, but often, in order to get the fruit in, they resorted to using brokers who used (and probably still do) illegal workers. There isn't a pool of workers that are citizens to tap for those purposes even at union wage. My folks demand accounting from the brokers to make sure they aren't exploiting the workers (skimming) but it is an extra hassle that, if we actually had people who want to do that work for the prevailing union wage, they would pay it.

If we have a demand for jobs that we cannot fill with our citizens, why are we making folks walk across the desert? If we don't want drugs to be smuggled into the country, why don't we stop taking them? If a person smokes pot and hits the 2 am taco truck... that is supporting the problem, not solving it.

If the folks weren't being forced to sneak in, would they walk through the desert? Would the whole thing be laced with criminality?

I agree that boycotting, in our current era, is beyond ridiculous... and needless too... the people here who smoke pot, aren't gonna stop. The people who look the other way when their gardener comes to mow the grass or when they get a bag of tamales off the cart or swing by wendy's for a burger made by someone who isn't here legally.. we're not gonna stop...

But, that is where those clothes come from.

If the roles were reversed... if Mexico had work that I could go do and provide for my family and I was living in poverty here in the states.... and I could go there and make money.... I would do it. I would break the law to provide for my family. I would litter in the Mexican national park on my way to a better life for my family.

It wouldn't be my favorite thing. But, I would do it. As patriotic as I am, and as much as I love my country, my family and their needs would come first...

MikeA
06-07-2010, 01:20 PM
I understand all that BB. I would do just about anything short of killing someone to provide for my family but that doesn't make it right in anyone's eyes but my own. Granted that these people are illegally coming into the States to support their families, but how falls the responsibility on those of the States to take care of them? I'll do my part and stop smoking pot....I did that 30 or 40 years ago. I can't stop eating at establishments nor stop buying from establishments that hire illegals because I simply don't know who they are.

This is a horrible humanitarian conflict. I don't know the resolution, but can't see that it falls on the American side of the border. Our only offense in this is a strong defense in stopping the influx. And I still maintain that it needs to be stopped. I'm talking about the illegal influx. I have no objections to legal immigration.

I must have missed something implied with the justification of the shed clothing. Why would it need to be shed? Does the clothing somehow identify the illegals or does it mean they are being forced to disrobe to hasten their deaths in the desert?

If it means that fruit and produce growers have to pay more than they do now for pickers, they they have to pay it. It will raise the price to the consumers, but that's the way capitalism is supposed to work...supply and demand.

(BTW) there are some really attractive buys on MiM Teles on eBay right now!

bernie's bender
06-07-2010, 02:05 PM
The shed clothing is explained here. (http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/restarea.asp)

I'm not saying that anybody needs to do anything, just that the problem is so vast and so entwined in each of our lives (even though we didn't ask for it, there it is.)

My mom helped some folks get their immigration stuff done back in the 80's... they were some of the best people I've ever met. They got legal and came here... Jose, the guy I most remember, was kind of a foreman for my folks and 3 other growers. (btw, this stuff is not political, my parents are hard core right wing grower types, but two of the other growers are big lefties and the other guy is a moderate.... they share the hard work of running an operation, a passion for the land, and being good folks who care about each other... which none of those things involve political parties.)

Anyway, Jose went on to bring his family to the US, he went to college, got a degree in AG and has become very successful... I saw him 5 years ago or so, he dropped by at the end of the season... he sat down with us and burst into tears and thanked my folks profusely for the help that they'd been... it completely changed his life...

I remember when he pulled away in his new chevy truck with a AAA sticker on it! my stepfather said, "That guy is what America is about."

My stepfather was a WWII vet, Korean War Vet, 30 year reserve veteran of the Navy Lt. Commander and a retired Vice President of one of the largest companies in the US.

We've just got to find a way to A) stop the crime element-- the drugs and guns and B) find a way to equalize the border so that folks don't need to become criminals to work C) limit the few who are exploiting American goodwill for personal benefit. Those three are huge...

thelongrun
06-07-2010, 02:10 PM
Yes, those photos of litter are shocking. Yes, those are in AZ. But we could find equal scenes all over the World. Yes, Who cares? Those are in my County so I am against. But a the end of the Day, No: Nothings make this Ok, not even tons of littering... I mean this is just 1 storie from last week or so, of just 1 soul (I must say this one was in CA. no AZ.)...

Not even if the guy was a Smuggler either Trafficant (Wich he was not. He was a Construction worker with several kids and a wife). The word is he was beat to death.

http://www.cbs47.tv/news/state/story/Coroner-rules-death-of-Mexican-migrant-a-homicide/dwjt8_5mCUu56hWLpTHCnQ.cspx?rss=154

Bottom line for me: USA and Mexico people are not the problem. They have a common problem. And both Governments are going nowhere fast.

MikeA
06-07-2010, 02:43 PM
I am still obtuse on this issue. Is it really that difficult for a Mexican citizen to gain legal entry into the U.S.? With satellite surveillance would it be that difficult to detect large scale movement in one area and get patrols onsite fast enough to turn them back? Infrared would definitely distinguish body heat even from outer space.

I hope I don't come across as a hater of Hispanics. That just isn't the case at all. Yes, it's obviously a very convoluted situation. Were it not, I am sure that it would have already been resolved.

bernie's bender
06-07-2010, 02:55 PM
I am still obtuse on this issue. Is it really that difficult for a Mexican citizen to gain legal entry into the U.S.? With satellite surveillance would it be that difficult to detect large scale movement in one area and get patrols onsite fast enough to turn them back? Infrared would definitely distinguish body heat even from outer space.

I hope I don't come across as a hater of Hispanics. That just isn't the case at all. Yes, it's obviously a very convoluted situation. Were it not, I am sure that it would have already been resolved.

Yes. it is very difficult and expensive. In my teens, if you wanted to go back and forth, it was trivial... and for the most part, the governments looked the other way...

but, drugs changed everything. and now, weapons has really changed everything.

The Border Patrol is huge now and the walls are also huge... granted, it is a very large border... but much of the terrain is brutal and desolate and dangerous... there is a reason most of it is uninhabited or lightly inhabited... some of the harshest desert in the world...

My grandfather was a true 'wetback' he swam the rio grande when he was 12 to come to San Antonio.. he got a job in a kitchen, worked his way up and became a pretty famous chef in big hotels (in Atlanta, Houston, Beverly Hills etc)... he was a tremendous person... eventually became a citizen, always paid taxes etc...

I did a speech last week and I showed a picture of my grandfather and several people remarked afterward... kind of uncomfortably "I had no idea you were hispanic... you don't, uh, well, it was just a surprise!" (my grandmother was an english and french huguenot... who became a catholic! so blond and blue are pretty common in my family!)

The Long Run has it right... we're all just people.... and mostly good people... lots and lots of people die trying to get into this country every year... the number is not really known because the bodies aren't always found... and there is no meaningful communication between the two sides as to who is who..

it is really really awful..

tequila girl
08-26-2010, 03:58 AM
I just came across this on Yahoo News......How Terrible :-( :-( :-(

R.I.P

Drug hitmen dump 72 bodies at Mexican ranch

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67P2PI20100827