PDA

View Full Version : You Belong To the City and Baker Street



Ive always been a dreamer
03-02-2011, 12:05 PM
When Gerry Rafferty passed away recently, I mentioned this subject, but since that thread was devoted to Gerry’s memory, I didn’t want to take the discussion away from its purpose of honoring him at that time.

However, this is something I noticed a long time ago, so I wanted to discuss it a bit more. Am I the only one that sees a lot of similarities between Glenn’s You Belong To the City and Gerry’s song, Baker Street? I think the two classic songs are so similar in construction that I’ve often wondered if Glenn intentionally modeled YBTTC after Baker Street. Of course, the most obvious similarities are the incredible saxophones that are probably two of the most recognizable sax solos ever. Before I mention any other things, I’d like to see if anyone else wants to compare the two songs likenesses or differences. So anyone have any thoughts?

I'm posting videos for the songs in case anyone wants to give them another listen ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkS169P_Eeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yUmhsy3KuY

Freypower
03-02-2011, 09:21 PM
The verses appear to be structured in a similar way; both songs tell of urban disillusionment and end on a more positive note. However, YBTTC has a middle eight ('when you said goodbye') and a chorus. Baker Street has neither. In Baker Street the sax is practically the lead instrument, but there is also a scorching guitar solo on the long version of the song. The sax in YBTTC is used primarily to give the song a 'hook'. I love both songs; if I had to choose which I prefer I suppose ultimately it would probably be Baker Street because it's about London specifically.

Glenn MAY have modelled YBTTC after Baker Street but as he has never discussed this I really can't say any more than that. He was using sax in his solo songs prior to this; they just didn't have the same Baker Street style 'hook'.

sodascouts
03-02-2011, 11:43 PM
Other than the prominent sax lines (which are somewhat similar) I don't really see a huge similarity.

WalshFan88
03-03-2011, 02:56 AM
The sax lines are definitely similar. But the rest of the song, I'm not really sure. But there are some similarities but I don't know if I'd call it "really" similar.

Prettymaid
03-03-2011, 07:57 AM
Hopefully I can get back to this thread when I have more time. I'd love to get in on the discussion!

Ive always been a dreamer
03-03-2011, 11:19 AM
Well - first of all, I want to emphasize that this topic is pure speculation and, obviously, none of us knows for sure since the writers of YBTTC, Glenn and Jack Tempchin, have never commented on this to my knowledge.

Also, I want to stress that I don't mean to imply that YBTTC is a copy of Baker Street - they aren't the same songs for sure. But, I do find a lot of things about the songs that are alike. For example, what about the start to each song - both of them start out with a slow musical intro and then that sax solo suddenly hits you at full force. Love 'em both! :nod:

Freypower
03-03-2011, 05:32 PM
But YBTTC actually begins with the sax. Baker Street doesn't.

Ive always been a dreamer
03-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Well thanks, FP, but I am aware of that. It's pretty much stating the obvious. But, I have to admit that I am a bit confused as to what this has to do with the point I was making.

thelongrun
03-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Dear Dreamer same happened with me with Lily was here...
But to be honest, with Baker St. the only part I found that way it's the Sax one... very very much but only that part :-?

Freypower
03-04-2011, 06:24 PM
Well thanks, FP, but I am aware of that. It's pretty much stating the obvious. But, I have to admit that I am a bit confused as to what this has to do with the point I was making.

I only made that point because in your post you said both songs started with a 'slow musical intro' and then the sax 'hits you at full force' which appeared to be saying that YBTTC didn't start with sax either. So the point is that the intros are not similar.

Ive always been a dreamer
03-04-2011, 07:47 PM
When someone makes a remark that states the obvious, it normally means that they are either a.) uniformed or b.) being sarcastic, rude, or condescending. Since I doubt that you are uninformed, FP, then I assumed the latter must have been the case in your previous post. I don't care if anyone agrees with me when we are discussing these kinds of topics, but it does bother me when someone is sarcastic or condescending.

If we are going to quibble over the meaning of the word “similar”, here is how several online dictionaries define the word:

"having a likeness or resemblance, especially in a general way"

"showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical"

"having characteristics in common that are comparable but not exact"

So my arguments that both songs “start out with a slow musical intro and then that sax solo suddenly hits you at full force” qualifies them as similar by definition. I never said or implied that YBTTC did not started with sax.

Freypower
03-04-2011, 08:22 PM
OK... one more time; YBTTC is the song that begins with sax from the very first note. Baker Street doesn't. It begins with what sounds like flute but is probably synthesizer. The sax doesn't start until a few bars into the song. And for what it's worth, in my opinion the tempo is quite fast; faster than the opening tempo of YBBTC.

The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.

I am sorry you found what I said condescending because it was not meant that way at all. It appears that we fundamentally disagree that the introductions of these two songs are 'similar'.

WalshFan88
03-05-2011, 12:44 AM
I will say I like both songs a lot!

In fact, TIME LIFE just had their special on about Rock Ballads and they had a snippet of Glenn playing YBTTC and so I had to go and listen to the whole song.

Prettymaid
03-05-2011, 04:34 PM
Okay, I finally got back here and gave these a listen. I can only find one common denominator between the two songs, and that is the sax.

To my ears you might as well compare them to this one too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmVbjD9VrE

Ive always been a dreamer
03-05-2011, 08:06 PM
FP, I appreciate your effort to expand on your comments – it helps clarify what you were attempting to say. Not to beat a dead horse, but, to me, it helps prevent misunderstandings when you explain something rather than just state the obvious. Your last post points out the differences between the two introductions. I acknowledge those differences, but I also believe there are similarities, which have been the focus of my comments. I do seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion with you on this point…

“The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.”

When I talk about similarities between the songs, I’m speaking in generalities, not absolutes. I believe that most people would agree that the songs may contain both similarities and differences – it’s not “either/or”. However, it definitely appears that I am in the minority about how many similarities actually exist. So, with that in mind, I’m going to go ahead and list all the similarities that I see between the two songs …


The dominant and forceful sax solos that have basically come to define each song.
The slow tempo musical introductions that then lead into the songs’ blistering sax riffs to grab your attention from the ‘get-go’ in a big way.
The theme of both songs focuses on urban life – particularly about the loneliness and isolation of the city in the midst of the intoxicating crowds and activity that surround you.
The music and lyrics throughout both songs give the feeling of a constant sense of motion, which ties into the theme of the bustling city life, and also give the songs much of their energy.
The understated delivery of the verses in the songs, which serves to make the sax solos even more powerful when they come in.
The aforementioned understated delivery of the verses contrast with the powerful music to extenuate the songs’ conflicting themes of isolation on the busy streets.

As far as the scorching guitar solo in Baker Street – I may be wrong about this, but I don’t remember it being in the original recorded version. While the recorded version of YBBTC doesn’t have a guitar solo, there is usually an awesome one added to the song during live performances.

sodascouts
03-05-2011, 11:18 PM
Okay, I finally got back here and gave these a listen. I can only find one common denominator between the two songs, and that is the sax.

To my ears you might as well compare them to this one too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmVbjD9VrE

I agree. I think "Baker Street" is no more (or less) similar to "You Belong to the City" than "Harden My Heart" is, except maybe its theme is less "urban" and the sax riff doesn't get repeated as much. Still, it's always interesting to see how people hear things!

WalshFan88
03-05-2011, 11:45 PM
I agree. I think "Baker Street" is no more (or less) similar to "You Belong to the City" than "Harden My Heart" is. Still, it's always interesting to see how people hear things!

Definitely Soda. Kind of like a while back we were discussing what lyrics we hear on Glenn's "The Heat Is On". I'm sticking to "the beat's alive, deep inside" after repeated listens. I heard that song many years before being an Eagles fan and then hearing their solo stuff. I heard it on Beverly Hills Cop. One of my favorite movies of all time! ;)

Both YBTTC and Baker Street and HMH are all great songs with great music. My favorite is YBTTC though! ;)

Freypower
03-06-2011, 05:57 PM
FP, I appreciate your effort to expand on your comments – it helps clarify what you were attempting to say. Not to beat a dead horse, but, to me, it helps prevent misunderstandings when you explain something rather than just state the obvious. Your last post points out the differences between the two introductions. I acknowledge those differences, but I also believe there are similarities, which have been the focus of my comments. I do seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion with you on this point…

“The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.”

When I talk about similarities between the songs, I’m speaking in generalities, not absolutes. I believe that most people would agree that the songs may contain both similarities and differences – it’s not “either/or”. However, it definitely appears that I am in the minority about how many similarities actually exist. So, with that in mind, I’m going to go ahead and list all the similarities that I see between the two songs …


The dominant and forceful sax solos that have basically come to define each song.
The slow tempo musical introductions that then lead into the songs’ blistering sax riffs to grab your attention from the ‘get-go’ in a big way.
The theme of both songs focuses on urban life – particularly about the loneliness and isolation of the city in the midst of the intoxicating crowds and activity that surround you.
The music and lyrics throughout both songs give the feeling of a constant sense of motion, which ties into the theme of the bustling city life, and also give the songs much of their energy.
The understated delivery of the verses in the songs, which serves to make the sax solos even more powerful when they come in.
The aforementioned understated delivery of the verses contrast with the powerful music to extenuate the songs’ conflicting themes of isolation on the busy streets.
As far as the scorching guitar solo in Baker Street – I may be wrong about this, but I don’t remember it being in the original recorded version. While the recorded version of YBBTC doesn’t have a guitar solo, there is usually an awesome one added to the song during live performances.

The guitar solo in Baker Street is on the album version. You may have noticed that it was also in the YouTube version that presumably was the version which was released as a single.

No, I don't agree that the sax in YBTTC is as dominant or as memorable as it is in Baker Street or that it 'defines' the song. Sorry. It's a great hook; yes.

I've already said that I disagree that the opening tempo of Baker Street is 'slow'. And again you refer to the 'slow tempo' leading into the 'blistering sax riffs'. This doesn't happen in YBBTC. The recorded version of the song STARTS with the sax riff. The sax riff in YBBTC does not become 'blistering' until just before the first verse; after the rhythm section has kicked in.

If however you are referring to the live version of YBBTC on Farewell One which DOES start with a slow keyboard intro; then I see what you mean, but I thought we were discussing the recorded versions. The point remains that the sax still isn't 'blistering' at the start of the song in the way the Baker Street sax is, to my ears.

I agree about the lyrics & the sense of motion; but there is one fundamental difference: YBTTC celebrates life in the city. Baker Street rejects it. The 'isolation' in Baker Street lasts for the whole song. In YBBTC it is only when he's alone in his room that he feels isolated.

I agree that the vocals in the verses of both songs are understated but YBBTC has a middle eight & chorus which are the opposite of understated.

Ive always been a dreamer
03-14-2011, 01:19 PM
I thought long and hard before deciding whether or not to respond anymore in this thread since it seems to have turned in to nothing more than silly bickering between just a couple of people over trivial, petty stuff. I am sorry for that because this was definitely not my intent when I started the thread. I was hoping to have a fun and interesting dialog that pointed out both the similarities and differences of these two songs.

As I have said many times on this board, it doesn’t bother me when others don’t agree with me, but it does bother me if someone twists my words and uses flawed arguments when responding to my posts. And just to be clear, I don’t mind if someone picks my posts apart piece-by-piece, as long as they don’t distort and misrepresent what I wrote. So even though this probably isn’t important to anyone except for me, it is why I felt compelled to respond.

The logic of some here seems to be … “The two songs are different. Therefore, they can’t be similar.” Then, there are rebuttals that take my comments out of context, and are seemingly just for the sake of debate such as …


And for what it's worth, in my opinion the tempo is quite fast

Tempo is not something that is a matter of opinion … the rate of speed is something that can be measured and is, therefore, quantifiable fact. However, my point was nothing more than the tempo in the opening bars of these songs starts out slower, and then the tempo increases in speed.


No, I don't agree that the sax in YBTTC is as dominant or as memorable as it is in Baker Street or that it 'defines' the song. Sorry. It's a great hook; yes.

My comments were never intended to quibble about the degree to which the sax solos dominate each song or how comparatively memorable they are. I never stated or inferred this and specifically said that I was talking in generalities. And, I believe it is pretty much widely accepted that the sax solos are dominant, memorable, recognizable, and immediately identified with each song.


I've already said that I disagree that the opening tempo of Baker Street is 'slow'. And again you refer to the 'slow tempo' leading into the 'blistering sax riffs'. This doesn't happen in YBBTC. The recorded version of the song STARTS with the sax riff. The sax riff in YBBTC does not become 'blistering' until just before the first verse; after the rhythm section has kicked in.


The point remains that the sax still isn't 'blistering' at the start of the song in the way the Baker Street sax is, to my ears.

So now we are deliberating about just exactly when or if the YBTTC sax becomes “blistering”, and then that it may or may not be “blistering”, but either way the sax in the other song is more “blistering” – none of which are relevant to my original point. So OK – I give up and will leave this discussion to others. Honestly, it makes me tired just thinking about it.


YBTTC celebrates life in the city. Baker Street rejects it. The 'isolation' in Baker Street lasts for the whole song. In YBBTC it is only when he's alone in his room that he feels isolated.

Wow! – all I can say is that it sure seems to me that these are the lyrics of someone who feels isolated …

You look at the faces; it's just like a dream
Nobody knows where you're goin'
Nobody cares where you've been

When you said goodbye, you were on the run
Tryin' to get away from the things you've done
Now you're back again, and you're feeling strange
So much has happened, but nothing has changed
You still don't know where you're goin'
You're still just a face in the crowd

To me, the video for the song supports that interpretation. One-night stands are usually for lonely people looking for love in all the wrong places. But that’s just my opinion. I consider both songs to be a commentary on the isolation and intoxication of urban life - not a celebration of it, but that’s also just my interpretation.

In any event, I apologize again to everyone for the unfortunate nit-picking because I know it can make others feel uncomfortable. I prefer not to engage such behavior, and regret that I got caught up in it this time.

sodascouts
03-14-2011, 08:45 PM
both of them start out with a slow musical intro and then that sax solo suddenly hits you at full force.

It's true that they both start out slower and then the punch hits. However, the fact that the punch of "You Belong to the City" is a sped up version of the sax line that's already been introduced while the punch of "Baker Street" is the introduction of a new sax line diminishes that similarity of the intros somewhat. I understand that you were not trying to say they were exactly the same, but I think it's a legitimate point to bring up in a discussion comparing the two.

After all, when comparing the two, it isn't just "they are completely alike" vs. "they are totally different." We're talking about a matter of degrees and these type of things help us to gauge the degree of their similarity, in each of our opinions.

I believe the differences of the beginnings lessens the degree of the songs' similarity, in my mind. Of course I recognize that others may disagree.

That said, while "slow" and "fast" are relative terms, I think both songs have a noticeable injection of energy that comes in after a more laid-back intro. Even though their tempos are different, they both have a "OK, now we're kickin' it into gear" aspect after the first few bars. At least, that's the impression I get listening to them.

As I said before, I feel they both have distinctive sax hooks; IMO, it is in this aspect in which they are most similar.

Regarding urban themes:

The protagonist of "You Belong to the City" at the beginning of the song is restless. The night has begun and he's "getting tired of staring at the same four walls." At first he seems to embrace getting lost in the crowd, the rhythm of the city is "in [his] blood." However, I think that the "When you said goodbye" segment turns the song in a new direction. The protagonist now seems dissatisfied - he left the city for a while and he's come back and it's just the same old, same old. He's "still just a face in the crowd" - the addition of the world "just" is significant, I think. The anonymity of city life used to be something he embraced but now he's starting to realize that it can be lonely. I definitely see a darker turn and a sense of isolation at the end of the song that was not there in the beginning. I feel he is striving to overcome that lack of identity with the "you can make it" part. All of this makes it more interesting for me.

In "Baker Street," the tone is negative throughout except at the end when the person is "going home" (which I interpret as getting away from the city that he originally came to thinking "it held everything" and going back to his roots). "You Belong to the City" is more nuanced and the protagonist is more complex, to my way of thinking. However, I respect that others may interpret the lyrics differently.

A theme they share in common, IMHO, is restlessness and the desire to get more out of life than what the city is offering, but "Baker Street" does so in much more simplistic terms with its tales of dissatisfied people who dream of leaving the city behind. "You Belong to the City" concentrates on the psyche of a man who is conflicted and unsure of "where [he's] going." The city is part of him - he's "a man of the street" - yet it's not enough.

Also, I hear a lot more weariness in the voice of Gerry Rafferty. He's given up on the city; no one he sings about is drawn to the city anymore. The city has held nothing but disappointment for them - their high hopes have been dashed. Their restlessness comes either from broken dreams or from the lack of an ability to put down roots rather than an attraction to city life. Again, I respect that some may interpret the lyrics of this song differently. I think we must all keep in mind how subjective lyrics interpretation is.

Back to musical elements:

For me, the driving bass line of "You Belong to the City" gives it more energy and urgency than you find in "Baker Street," which to me has a much more laid-back sound. Indeed, the only part of "Baker Street" I find energizing is the sax and guitar (which at the end, is just as prominent as the sax). On the verses, "Baker Street" loses its verve IMHO, with its twinkly keyboard parts and resigned vocals. There is indeed a big contrast between the verses of "Baker Street" and the sax/guitar - for me, it's like "OK, time to wake up now." lol

There's also a contrast in "You Belong to the City" but to a much lesser extent, as it never loses that sense of urgency. I never get a "sleepy" feel from the verses of "You Belong to the City." I get one from "Baker Street" - maybe I'm the only one who does, but this post is about giving one's own impressions.

I can't speak to the differences between various versions of "Baker Street" as I'm simply working off the one Dreamer linked to at the beginning of the thread. The same is true for "You Belong to the City" - I'm just working with the version Dreamer posted. I'm not saying it's illegitimate to consider other versions, I'm just saying that I'm not doing so.

My conclusion:

The songs have similar elements - most notably the sax - but IMHO, they do not have a high degree of similarity overall. I understand that not everyone will agree with my opinion and am not trying to say that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

I'm always interested in giving my opinion and listening to others. I hope that anyone participating in such a debate understands that it is very possible for more than one person to be right, especially when we're talking about a matter of degree. People have different perspectives. That's the way it is and I encourage folks not to take things like this too seriously. :)

Ive always been a dreamer
03-15-2011, 12:37 PM
Thanks for your post, Soda. Of course, even though I may not agree with everything thing you wrote, I always respect yours and everyone else's right to their opinion. I very much believe that any argument anyone wants to use to support their opinion is legitimate if they can back it up. However, if someone uses their own criteria to rebut someone else's opinion who wasn't using that same criteria as a gauge, it can cause problems. It's the old "apples vs. oranges" thing. It may seem like it's splitting hairs, however, it's a subtle, but important distinction that I learned on my debate teams a few years ago (well, okay, more than a few years ago).

Here's another observation - often times when we discuss simiarities, we speak in broader, more general terms since, by definition, similarities aren't precise or exact. However, when we get to discussing differences, we tend to dissect the comparisons more. Obviously, things that have similarities also have differences cause it they didn't, then they'd be the same. :grin:

Back to your analysis of the songs, the only part of your argument that have a lot of disagreement with is the part where you say the verses in Baker Street give you a sleepy feeling and you don't find them energizing. Suffice it to say, I don't get the same feeling at all. While I agree that there is less contrast between the verses and sax solo in YBTTC, I get a sense of constant motion from the music throughout both songs. For me, the cadance of the verses of both songs give them energy as well.

As I said, I love both songs. If I had to pick a favorite, I guess I'd have to give a slight tiny little edge to Baker Street, but only because it was first. Probably, not a very good reason, but, hey, it works for me! :thumbsup:

Prettymaid
03-15-2011, 12:56 PM
I can understand what Soda means by "sleepy feeling" when describing Baker Street's verses as opposed to YBTTC's verses and for me it does indeed have to do somewhat with Gerry Rafferty's vocals. It's a great vocal - don't get me wrong - but I understand the sleepy vibe.

Thirsty&Hot
03-06-2013, 11:22 PM
When Gerry Rafferty passed away recently, I mentioned this subject, but since that thread was devoted to Gerry’s memory, I didn’t want to take the discussion away from its purpose of honoring him at that time.

However, this is something I noticed a long time ago, so I wanted to discuss it a bit more. Am I the only one that sees a lot of similarities between Glenn’s You Belong To the City and Gerry’s song, Baker Street? I think the two classic songs are so similar in construction that I’ve often wondered if Glenn intentionally modeled YBTTC after Baker Street. Of course, the most obvious similarities are the incredible saxophones that are probably two of the most recognizable sax solos ever. Before I mention any other things, I’d like to see if anyone else wants to compare the two songs likenesses or differences. So anyone have any thoughts?

I'm posting videos for the songs in case anyone wants to give them another listen ...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkS169P_Eeo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yUmhsy3KuY


i remember hearing either one or both of these songs when I was a child, and for the longest time I couldn't remember who sang them or what the songs were when I was trying to recall them as I got older. I would try to describe it..."you know the one with the saxophone"
Men at Work was suggested..but I knew that wasn't it.
Then when I fell in love with Gerry Rafferty's "Right Down the Line", I started to explore the rest of his work and when I heard "Baker Street" I thought for sure that was it!
But then when I listened to Glenn's solo stuff and heard "You Belong to the City" and realized he was in Miami Vice etc etc (my mom was obsessed with Miami Vice and Don Johnson) I was like OH WAIT I think THIS is IT!

haha perhaps it was both that i remembered so fondly, but I'm pretty sure it was probably Glenn's music knowing my mom.

anyway..YES these two songs definitely have a very similar sound!