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WalshFan88
01-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Here's an interview with the engineer who is doing Felder's record. He talks about it some along with Felder writing Hotel California here:

http://www.sonicscoop.com/2012/01/01/cross-country-view-ed-cherney-on-l-a-nyc-and-career-quality-control/

Freypower
01-02-2012, 06:56 PM
'He wrote Hotel California for God's sake'.

He wrote the MUSIC for Hotel California, or some of it.

'He's been making music for thirty some odd years'.

Since he was fired, he has yet to produce any new music at all. In the 14 year period before the Eagles reformed, he made one album.

Don't get me wrong; I wish Felder success, but let's have some accuracy.

Topkat
01-02-2012, 07:10 PM
Why do people have to downplay Felder's part in the writing of Hotel California? He wrote the music & yes, that was pretty major.

Freypower
01-02-2012, 07:19 PM
Yes, but he did not write the ENTIRE song. To state this is not 'downplaying' his part in it.

Topkat
01-02-2012, 07:39 PM
Well, to me it is downplaying it. As far as I know, Felder wrote all the guitar parts, the introduction, the melody. I would be curious to know what part of the song he didn't write. Does anybody actually know this?

Freypower
01-02-2012, 07:41 PM
Well, to me it is downplaying it. As far as I know, Felder wrote all the guitar parts, the introduction, the melody. I would be curious to know what part of the song he didn't write. Does anybody actually know this?

He didn't write the lyrics. The lyrics were written by Don Henley & Glenn Frey.

Topkat
01-03-2012, 09:16 AM
It's well known that Henley & Frey wrote the lyrics, but your quote was:


"He wrote the MUSIC for Hotel California, or some of it. "

I don't want to argue this. It's long in the past.

Felder is no longer an Eagle, & they've all moved on.....Peace out!!!

Ive always been a dreamer
01-03-2012, 01:43 PM
I remember Joe saying that he helped Felder work out some of the guitar parts for the song. However, since the co-writers on the song are listed as Don Felder, Don Henley, and Glenn Frey only, I guess it really doesn't matter. If Joe did help, he obviously wasn't credited.

But, I totally agree that none of this is worth arguing over. Only those guys know for sure how it all went down.

chaim
01-29-2012, 09:30 AM
For some reason in rock music the vocal melody is often not considered "music". When rock people talk about writing "the music", they often mean the chord progressions, riffs and sometimes full arrangements. As far as I know, Don Felder's demo was an instrumental, on top of which Don Henley and Glenn wrote the vocal melodies and lyrics. Is there someone who thinks that the chorus melody (supposedly written by Glenn or/and Don Henley), for example, doesn't have anything to do with the song's appeal?

Ive always been a dreamer
01-29-2012, 03:05 PM
Not me! :grin:

sodascouts
01-29-2012, 04:28 PM
Amen, chaim!

You know, it's only right that Felder take his deserved credit for jump-starting and co-writing the song. It just irks me when he happily takes credit for the song in its entirety.

He has every right to be very proud of his significant contribution; why isn't that enough for him? Why does he have to act as if he wrote it himself?

Note: To be fair, he does share credit in his book. It's only in interviews and press where he presents himself as "Don Felder, the Man Who Wrote Hotel California." I daresay we can expect this from press on his new album, although one can always hope he "sees the light" so to speak and puts the brakes on that misrepresentation.

Freypower
01-29-2012, 04:57 PM
For some reason in rock music the vocal melody is often not considered "music". When rock people talk about writing "the music", they often mean the chord progressions, riffs and sometimes full arrangements. As far as I know, Don Felder's demo was an instrumental, on top of which Don Henley and Glenn wrote the vocal melodies and lyrics. Is there someone who thinks that the chorus melody (supposedly written by Glenn or/and Don Henley), for example, doesn't have anything to do with the song's appeal?

The chorus melody, as others have said about THIO, is what gets the crowd going & singing along. It's unusual in that it only occurs twice in the song. Without that chorus, the song would be very similar to a rambling epic by Dylan like Desolation Row (which I love).

chaim
01-30-2012, 12:46 PM
It is possible of course that in the demo Don (Felder) had guitars playing the melodies that later became vocal melodies. But he doesn't mention writing any vocal melodies in his book. On the other hand he says that he had some ideas for vocal melodies for Victim of Love.
As for Don shouting around that he wrote Hotel California...Here's my theory: As we know, when the Hell Freezes Over came out, Hotel California was suddenly credited to Henley/Frey/Felder, and this naturally irritated him. So he wants people to remember that he did originate the song. This I would perfectly understand. Having said that, Glenn could go around reminding people that he composed and played the guitar solos in ICTYW. :grin:

sodascouts
01-30-2012, 03:05 PM
I thought about that motivation, too, chaim. I think he believed "the gods" were being petty by doing that as well as diminishing his role, and perhaps he feels that justifies him being petty in return and exaggerating his role.

Henley Honey
01-31-2012, 06:30 PM
Nah. I just think he likes to winge and whine. :nausea:

sodascouts
02-01-2012, 07:24 PM
Note: I moved these posts from the thread about Felder's new album because these don't really talk about that topic and you know how I like to keep things straight. ;) Hope no one minds!

chaim
02-03-2012, 08:53 AM
Note: I moved these posts from the thread about Felder's new album because these don't really talk about that topic and you know how I like to keep things straight. ;) Hope no one minds!

I think it's great that you did that. I was a bit worried anyway of taking that thread even further from the actual topic!

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 09:46 AM
I do believe Felder did write the music for Hotel California, with the exception of Joe's guitar solo, which Joe added some things to. Also it was Joe's idea for the ending triads at the tail end of the song. You know the part I'm talking about, both guitars are playing that 3 note outro at the same time. Joe came up with that, according to Don Felder in a guitar DVD I have. He said that was Joe's idea to put that on the end to kind of bring the song to a close.

So other than Joe's solo (which he took from Felder's demo and kind of added things to it and played it in his own style) and the ending triads, Felder did write the music from the intro to the verses to the chorus parts, etc.

Now, as far as lyrics... I've been flamed (somewhat) by saying I think Don Henley wrote most of the lyrics for Hotel. I will always believe that. I realize both Don and Glenn have songwriting credits on the song but I can hear and tell a difference between their writing styles. Don has a special way of making a song like a story or like a movie in your head and very much to where it's like you see photographs in your head of what's happening as the song goes along and his songs are very photographic in a way. Frey came up IMO with the concept of driving into LA, seeing the strip, etc. I think he came up with the concept of the song, but Don has a special way of laying out the lyrics to where it plays out like a movie in your head. He's a brilliant lyricist. EVERY Don Henley song has that to where you can visualize what's happening and it's like he's throwing snapshots out at you of what it's suppose to mean and you form your own interpretation of what it's about. Glenn's writing style is great as well but doesn't have that story/movie-playing-in-your-head aspect to it at all and those songs don't have that visual story to it like Henley's songs do.

I think they all contributed to Hotel California (song), but I'm not afraid to say I think the bulk of the music was written by Felder, and the bulk of the lyrics were written by Henley. Joe did have his parts he added in the music, and Frey had his parts he added in the concept and perhaps idea for the lyrics, but to me Hotel is a Felder/Henley song to me.

The solo in Hotel California is quite frankly the best of all time and I don't think it will ever be topped. It just has such an amazing tone to it and the notes in that solo just grab you. Plus you have two amazing players, from different styles, one being a schooled technical player (Felder) to a more loose blues based old school player (Walsh, which I personally prefer for my own playing) and when you put them together on that solo it just becomes amazing. It's so iconic and when you hear it you know instantly what it is, if you hadn't heard the song before it. Then at the end with the outro of the twin leads at the end, it just really "sums" up the song and there couldn't be any better way to end the song off than to have Joe and Don (Felder) play it out like that.

Hotel to this day still gives me chills when I hear it. It was on the radio yesterday going to the doctor and when it came on I got chills and a huge smile on my face. It to this day inspires me and gives me happiness and motivation and always can bring me out of a slump. It's such a moving song and to me is the soundtrack of my life and is my life theme song. Even though I didn't partake in excess in the 70s, I still can relate to that song and it feels like it was written for me as I can connect with it and even the lyrics of the song are like it's about me - which is strange because again, I wasn't in that "scene". It inspires me in general as well as on guitar and as you all know, is the reason I started in the first place. If I hadn't heard Hotel California on that special day, I would not be talking to you all today. I wouldn't be talking to anyone... I truly have unbelievable amounts of admiration and respect for this band as a whole and especially Joe Walsh as I really felt a "connection" to him as a person with his personality as well as his style of guitar playing. If it weren't for Joe and the Eagles, I'd hate to say what would have happened. I hope to meet them all one day and tell them how much it means to me. I'd also like to meet Felder and tell him the same. They all are the reason I'm here.

At the end of the day, I don't care about the little details of who wrote what, all I know is that Hotel California to me is the best song and album ever recorded and is truly the song of my life. The album is the soundtrack of my life and is the one I want played at my funeral. It truly continues to give me endless motivation, inspiration, and happiness and that's all that matters. Not who wrote this little bit at 2 minutes in. The song as a whole is what makes me happy. And the whole album is one of the only ones where I never skip one track. It's a timeless masterpiece and is truly the best one I've heard.

Scarlet Sun
02-03-2012, 07:40 PM
Conceptualization aside, in terms of specifics, Glenn has specifically stated he helped write the chorus, and nothing else.

Freypower
02-03-2012, 08:02 PM
Conceptualization aside, in terms of specifics, Glenn has specifically stated he helped write the chorus, and nothing else.

When did he say that?

I don't have a problem with the idea that Henley wrote most of the lyrics but I think it's unfair to dismiss Glenn's role in the composition of the song so completely. As has been stated by others, he & Don Henley probably composed the chorus/vocal melody.

The fact is only the three songwriters know for sure who wrote what.

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 08:12 PM
I don't have a problem with the idea that Henley wrote most of the lyrics but I think it's unfair to dismiss Glenn's role in the composition of the song so completely.

I'm not dismissing anything. I do think Glenn came up with the concept, and I remember him saying such in interviews. And he probably did come up with the chorus. I think he did contribute to the song - as I said I think they all contributed to the song, but the bulk of it is Henley/ Felder to me. But I'm not dismissing anything at all. But it's not a Glenn song and doesn't sound like one either, lyrically/musically. Just like Take it Easy isn't a Henley song.

Scarlet Sun
02-03-2012, 08:19 PM
When did he say that?
I used to have this vinyl LP of an interview he and Don did around the time of the release of The Long Run.

sodascouts
02-03-2012, 08:59 PM
If Glenn himself says it, then I believe it. There's no need to try and grasp more credit for him than he himself claims.

Alternatively, there's no need to try to deny him that credit by characterizing it as a "Henley/Felder song."

Honestly, I don't really care all that much about whether he wrote the chorus, or part of the chorus, or whatever. It's an Eagles song. Anyone who tries to make it about a certain Eagle(s) is missing the point. This song isn't about who played what, who wrote what. It's about the synthesis that came together when this band brought the song to fruition... and all the Eagles were a part of that.

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 09:14 PM
I think they all contributed as I said, and it is an Eagles song and sounds like one, it's just that it comes across as Henley's signature song. It's "his" song, just like Take It Easy is Glenn's song. I really am not saying it was his work and his work alone but it is the one where the writing really comes across as that guy's song, and that is Henley's style. I can't imagine Glenn singing Hotel California and I can't imagine Henley singing Take It Easy. Take It Easy is Glenn's "Hotel California". It sounds like Glenn's writing.

Scarlet Sun
02-03-2012, 09:25 PM
Take It Easy is Glenn's "Hotel California". It sounds like Glenn's writing.
Even though he only wrote one line of it!

sodascouts
02-03-2012, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure that was the best example of Glenn's songwriting skill, lol. However, I think "Take It Easy" is comparable to "Hotel California" in terms of what songs the Eagles are best known for.

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 09:38 PM
That's not what I've heard. Only the first verse was Jackson Browne's and he couldn't do anything with it so he gave it to Glenn to finish, and Glenn wrote the rest of it. Sure sounds like Glenn to me.... ;) I can recognize his writing.

Scarlet Sun
02-03-2012, 09:45 PM
According to Glenn's own words from the In The Studio radio show which featured the debut album, all he wrote was the lyric "it's a girl my lord in a flatbed Ford slowing down to take a look at me." Jackson was so happy he gave Glenn 1/2 writing credit

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Jackson Browne wrote this for his first album, but he didn't know how to finish the song. He gave it to his friend Glenn Frey, who needed songs for his new band - the Eagles. Frey finished the song and the Eagles used it as the first song on their first album. So what was almost a Jackson Browne song became the first single from the new group the Eagles.


Frey's changes to the song included adding the second verse (and the line "Standing on the corner in Winslow, Arizona," and stretching out the "E" in "Easy." He considers the song one of the most important Eagles tracks. In an interview with Bob Costas, he said the song represented "America's first image of our band with the vistas of the Southwest and the beginnings of what became Country-Rock."


http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=3067

But I guess when you think about it, most of Frey's signature songs were co-written with at least one other person. So Take It Easy may be as good of an example as any of them. ;) New Kid In Town was of course with JD Souther, Heartache Tonight with Bob Seger, etc etc etc. And songs like Peaceful Easy Feeling and Already Gone were all Jack Tempchin's writing.

Agree to disagree I guess.

sodascouts
02-03-2012, 09:53 PM
Yes, SS is right. Glenn has said that he wrote just that line many times. This is a quote from him that can be found in their Very Best booklet:
"Jackson Browne, J.D. Souther, and I all lived at 1020 Laguna in Echo Park. J.D. and I shared a $60-a-month, one-room apartment -- a couch and kind of a bed with a curtain in front of it. Right underneath us in an even smaller studio apartment was Jackson. He had his piano and guitars down there. [...] That's when I first heard 'Take It Easy.'" I told him that I really liked it. "What was that, man? What a cool tune that is." He started playing it for me and said, "Yeah, but I don't know -- I'm stuck." So he played the second unfinished verse and I said, "It's a girl, my lord, in a flatbed Ford, slowin' down to take a look at me." That was my contribution to "Take It Easy," really, just finishing the second verse. Jackson was so thrilled. He said, "Okay! We cowrote this." But it's certainly more of him. Sometimes, you know, it's the package without the ribbon. He already had the lines about Winslow, Arizona. He'd had car trouble and broken down there on one of his trips to Sedona. He spent a long day in Winslow.... I don't know that we could have ever had a better opening song on our first album. Just those open chords felt like an announcement, 'And now ... the Eagles.'" (Very Best Liner Notes 2003)

Sure sounds like Glenn to me.... :wink: I can recognize his writing.

Just like you can always recognize Henley's writing, eh? ;)

WalshFan88
02-03-2012, 09:58 PM
Just like you can always recognize Henley's writing, eh? ;)

I knew Take It Easy was co-written and it's pretty easy to tell which parts were Glenn's. And, yes, I can recognize Henley's writing as well. Two separate styles not anywhere similar. Henley's is photographic, Frey's is not.

GlennLover
02-04-2012, 01:34 AM
http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=3067

But I guess when you think about it, most of Frey's signature songs were co-written with at least one other person. So Take It Easy may be as good of an example as any of them. ;) New Kid In Town was of course with JD Souther, Heartache Tonight with Bob Seger, etc etc etc. And songs like Peaceful Easy Feeling and Already Gone were all Jack Tempchin's writing.

Agree to disagree I guess.

I just want to point out that many of the songs that Don has written were co-written with at least one other person. I'm not that familiar with his solo material, but he didn't write any Eagles songs by himself.

sodascouts
02-04-2012, 04:18 PM
Indeed, there are no Eagles songs credited solely to Don Henley. However, there is one solo song credited solely to him: "A Month of Sundays." I believe that is the only one.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - that's just the way he and Glenn work best - as collaborators.

As for Glenn, he has written the following songs by himself: "Chug All Night," "Most of Us Are Sad," "Get You in the Mood," "No More Cloudy Days," "You Are Not Alone," "I Dreamed There Was No War," "All Those Lies", and "Agua Tranquilla." Did I miss anything?

Ive always been a dreamer
02-04-2012, 04:24 PM
Frey came up IMO with the concept of driving into LA, seeing the strip, etc. I think he came up with the concept of the song, but Don has a special way of laying out the lyrics to where it plays out like a movie in your head. He's a brilliant lyricist. EVERY Don Henley song has that to where you can visualize what's happening and it's like he's throwing snapshots out at you of what it's suppose to mean and you form your own interpretation of what it's about. Glenn's writing style is great as well but doesn't have that story/movie-playing-in-your-head aspect to it at all and those songs don't have that visual story to it like Henley's songs do.

Austin, this is the part of your post that I take issue with the most. I agree with what you say about Don Henley’s brilliant songwriting, but I don’t agree that this talent is unique to him. If this were the case, then I guess you would argue that any cinematic lyrics in any Eagles song was written by Henley since the implication is that Glenn is incapable of this. You have said yourself before on this board that you aren’t that familiar with Don’s and Glenn’s solo work. Don certainly has some songs where the lyrics aren’t that impressive and don’t have that “story/movie-playing-in-your-head aspect” that you describe. On the other hand, Glenn has some solo songs that have wonderful visual imagery and storytelling. So, IMO, it is implausible to stereotype them like this. It is the combination of talent that the two men brought to the table that makes their songwriting partnership in the Eagles so special – or as has been often said said … ‘the sum greater than the parts’.


At the end of the day, I don't care about the little details of who wrote what, ...

I agree with this, but you are the one that has brought this up for discussion several times and characterize it as a Felder/Henley song, so it’s natural that other fans will respond. As we keep repeating over and over, none of us really knows exactly who wrote what, and the actual recollections of the songwriters may not even be totally reliable. I’ve never seen the information that Scarlet Sun referred to, but Henley and Frey have been fairly consistent over the years in everything I’ve ever read regarding their collaboration in writing the lyrics for the song. I wish I had some time to dig up some more old interviews, but I don’t. Here are the excerpts of their comments on the subject in the 2004 The Very Best of the Eagles liner notes, as well as, part of what Felder said on the matter in his Heaven and Hell book in 2007. His account doesn’t quite jive with Henley’s and Frey’s, so it’s no wonder there is such confusion about this …




HOTEL CALIFORNIA

GLENN: The song began as a demo tape, an instrumental by Don Felder. He'd been submitting tapes and song ideas to us since he'd joined the band, always instrumentals, since he didn't sing. But this particular demo, unlike many of the others, had room for singing. It immediately got our attention. The first working title, the name we gave it, was "Mexican Reggae."

For us, "Hotel California" was definitely thinking and writing outside the box. We had never written any song like it before. Similar to "Desperado," we did not start out to make any sort of concept or theme album. But when we wrote "Life In The Fast Lane" and started working on "Hotel California" and "New Kid In Town" with J.D., we knew we were heading down a long and twisted corridor and just stayed with it. Songs from the dark side -- the Eagles take a look at the seamy underbelly of L.A. -- the flip side of fame and failure, love and money.

"They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can't kill the beast" was a little Post-It back to Steely Dan. Apparently, Walter Becker's girlfriend loved the Eagles, and she played them all the time. I think it drove him nuts. So, the story goes that they were having a fight one day, and that was the genesis of the line, "turn up the Eagles, the neighbors are listening" in "Everything You Did," from Steely Dan's The Royal Scam album. During the writing of "Hotel California," we decided to volley. We just wanted to allude to Steely Dan rather than mentioning them outright, so "Dan" got changed to "knives," which is still, you know, a penile metaphor. Stabbing, thrusting, etc.

Almost everybody in my business can write music, play guitar, play piano, create chord progressions, etc., but it's only when you add lyrics and melody and voices to these things that they take on an identity and become something beyond that sum of the individual parts. I remember that Henley and I were listening to the "Hotel California" demo tape together on an airplane, and we were talking about what we would write and how we wanted to be more cinematic. We wanted this song to open like an episode of The Twilight Zone -- just one shot after another.

I remember De Niro in The Last Tycoon. He's got this scene, and he's talking to some other people in his office. He speaks to them: "The door opens...the camera is on a person's feet...he walks across the room...we pan up to the table... he picks up a pack of matches that says 'The Such-And-Such Club' on it... strikes a match and lights a cigarette...puts it out... goes over to the window... opens the shade... looks out... the moon is there... what does it mean? Nothing. It's just the movies." "Hotel California" is like that. We take this guy and make him like a character in The Magus, where every time he walks through a door there's a new version of reality. We wanted to write a song just like it was a movie. This guy is driving across the desert. He's tired. He's smokin'. Comes up over a hill, sees some lights, pulls in. First thing he sees is a really strange guy at the front door, welcoming him: "Come on in." Walks in, and then it becomes Fellini-esque -- strange women, effeminate men, shadowy corridors, disembodied voices, debauchery, illusion... Weirdness. So we thought, "Let's really take some chances. Let's try to write in a way that we've never written before." Steely Dan inspired us because of their lyrical bravery and willingness to go "out there." So, for us, "Hotel California" was about thinking and writing outside the box.

DON: We were enamored with hotels. Hotels were a big part of our lives. The Beverly Hills Hotel had become something of a focal point -- literally and symbolically. I've always been interested in architecture and the language of architecture, and, at that time, I was particularly keen on the mission style of early California. I thought there was a certain mystery and romance about it. Then, there are all the great movies and plays in which hotels figure prominently, not only as a structure, but as a dramatic device. Films such as Grand Hotel, The Night Porter, and even Psycho -- motels count too. There are plays like Neil Simon's Plaza Suite and California Suite, which Glenn and I went to see while writing the song. We saw it as homework or research. We were looking for things that would stimulate us and give us ideas. Sometimes it was just driving around. We would still take trips out to the desert. At one point, Glenn and I rented a little red house up in Idlewild -- way up in the San Bernadino Mountains. We'd drive out there sometimes just to clear our heads, sleep on the floor in sleeping bags. We didn't have any furniture. We were just on the quest.




… Best of all, Glenn had a germ of an idea while he was listening to it. He was great at conceptualizing and was listening to a lot of Steely Dan at the time. “This could be about the fantasy of California,” he said. “I can see a guy driving down a desert highway at night in a convertible and seeing the lights of L.A. way off on the horizon.” We all knew the feeling; we’d all driven into LA from our respective homes and been overwhelmed by the awesome spectacle of the city, with its twinkling lights spread before us. Don snapped the image in his mind and took it from there, expanding it to the guy seeing a hotel in the distance and deciding to rest for the night. There, where he is served pink champagne under mirrored ceilings, a woman walks in. “It’s such a lovely place,” he muses with that uncanny gift of his, as he absentmindedly adds his smoldering cigarette butt to the dozen he already has lined up in front of him. “This could be heaven or this could be hell.”

Don was very private about his lyrics. After he’d come up with a basic concept, he’d take it away and work on it secretly, and we wouldn’t hear the finished product until we were ready to record it in the studio. …

WalshFan88
02-04-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm not saying Glenn is a bad songwriter at all and I fully realize they are a songwriting team. It's just that for me I can see which parts are who's and to me every Henley song I can picture in my head. I can't say that for Glenn's. It's not a knock on his songwriting or that every songwriter has to do this. But it is an identifiable trait of Don's that I recognize. Maybe others don't see the imagery. Music is a very personal experience. But even "All She Wants To Do Is Dance" plays out in my head. I can see the plane taxing down the runway in my head and the Molotov cocktail and all of that. Maybe everyone can't but it's just something I personally identify with Henley's writing. And not necessarily all lyrics or concept, but the way they are composed and "laid out".

I realize most probably won't agree but I'm in no way saying Glenn is less of a songwriter than Don or anything like that. But they both have traits in their songwriting that I personally pick up on. Just like in the Beatles, I can tell who's parts are who's. Macca has a different writing style than Lennon, and so on. And that's what MAKES them such a great team because they are so blatantly different in style.

But in no way am I slamming Glenn, FWIW.

Scarlet Sun
02-04-2012, 05:38 PM
Indeed, there are no Eagles songs credited solely to Don Henley. However, there is one solo song credited solely to him: "A Month of Sundays." I believe that is the only one.

Not that there's anything wrong with that - that's just the way he and Glenn work best - as collaborators.

As for Glenn, he has written the following songs by himself: "Chug All Night," "Most of Us Are Sad," "Get You in the Mood," "No More Cloudy Days," "You Are Not Alone," "I Dreamed There Was No War," "All Those Lies", and "Agua Tranquilla." Did I miss anything?
Yes - Run Boy Run and my favorite of them all - Rebecca! :grooving:

Freypower
02-04-2012, 05:43 PM
I'm not saying Glenn is a bad songwriter at all and I fully realize they are a songwriting team. It's just that for me I can see which parts are who's and to me every Henley song I can picture in my head. I can't say that for Glenn's. It's not a knock on his songwriting or that every songwriter has to do this. But it is an identifiable trait of Don's that I recognize. Maybe others don't see the imagery. Music is a very personal experience. But even "All She Wants To Do Is Dance" plays out in my head. I can see the plane taxing down the runway in my head and the Molotov cocktail and all of that. Maybe everyone can't but it's just something I personally identify with Henley's writing. And not necessarily all lyrics or concept, but the way they are composed and "laid out".

I realize most probably won't agree but I'm in no way saying Glenn is less of a songwriter than Don or anything like that. But they both have traits in their songwriting that I personally pick up on. Just like in the Beatles, I can tell who's parts are who's. Macca has a different writing style than Lennon, and so on. And that's what MAKES them such a great team because they are so blatantly different in style.

But in no way am I slamming Glenn, FWIW.


Everything you describe in ASWTDID (which, by the way, was written by Danny Kortchmar, not Don Henley) I can see in Smuggler's Blues. I can also see it in River Of Dreams. In fact I see everything you describe in the entire Strange Weather album. And I see it in Glenn's LROOE songs too, even though they may not be so obviously visual, and of course he didn't write a couple of them.

In any case, songs can also be about emotions, not just storytelling, and in that respect some of Glenn's more 'emotional' songs are very effective.

You may well believe that you know 'whose parts are whose'. I don't claim that knowledge. I just enjoy the wonderful songs the two of them came up with.

Freypower
02-04-2012, 05:45 PM
According to Glenn's own words from the In The Studio radio show which featured the debut album, all he wrote was the lyric "it's a girl my lord in a flatbed Ford slowing down to take a look at me." Jackson was so happy he gave Glenn 1/2 writing credit

In my opinion that's two lines, not one line! :D

sodascouts
02-04-2012, 07:25 PM
Yes - Run Boy Run and my favorite of them all - Rebecca! :grooving:

lol! Well if we go back that far, Henley contributed a song or two to Shiloh!

"Run Boy Run" - the sad tale of the accidental statutory rapist. Not Glenn's finest moment lyrically, but hey, it's catchy! "Rebecca" has its moments, but it's another tale where our hero is less than a sympathetic character, cheating on his woman. Anyone else have the feeling that Glenn was not a man that a woman could trust back in the day? lol


Everything you describe in ASWTDID (which, by the way, was written by Danny Kortchmar, not Don Henley) I can see in Smuggler's Blues. I can also see it in River Of Dreams. In fact I see everything you describe in the entire Strange Weather album. And I see it in Glenn's LROOE songs too, even though they may not be so obviously visual, and of course he didn't write a couple of them.

I completely agree with you about the imagery, FP. Perhaps it doesn't speak to everyone, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


even "All She Wants To Do Is Dance" plays out in my head. I can see the plane taxing down the runway in my head and the Molotov cocktail and all of that. Maybe everyone can't but it's just something I personally identify with Henley's writing.

And as FP pointed out, ASWTDID was written solely by Danny Kortchmar. Henley did not write any of those lyrics.

This is the second time you have "personally identified" traits of a songwriter in lyrics that he didn't actually write. Perhaps it's time to accept that you have no more insight into who writes what than the rest of us.

I like you, Austin, but sometimes you make the mistake of stating your opinions as if they were fact. It's part of growing up to accept your mistakes and learn from them. Let this be one of those times.

WalshFan88
02-05-2012, 01:00 AM
I know it was written by someone else - that's my point. Other songwriters can do this too - not just one person. Meaning that I'm not just singling out Don or "picking on Glenn". But when comparing Don to Glenn, it's different to me. Maybe it's different for every person.

Also I never said anything was fact - I'm doing what you and everyone else is doing - giving opinions. That's all they are and ever will be.

I can see I'm getting nowhere in a hurry with this...sigh. Agree to disagree.

sodascouts
02-05-2012, 03:09 PM
I know it was written by someone else - that's my point. Other songwriters can do this too - not just one person.

Please, Austin! You obviously did not know that those songs were written by others, and your point was quite the opposite.

Here is what you said earlier:


I can recognize Henley's writing as well. Two separate styles not anywhere similar. Henley's is photographic, Frey's is not.

And then, in a later post when you were questioned about this, you used ASWTDID as an example of Henley's "photographic" songwriting. To be specific, you said:


It's just that for me I can see which parts are who's and to me every Henley song I can picture in my head. I can't say that for Glenn's. It's not a knock on his songwriting or that every songwriter has to do this. But it is an identifiable trait of Don's that I recognize. Maybe others don't see the imagery. Music is a very personal experience. But even "All She Wants To Do Is Dance" plays out in my head. I can see the plane taxing down the runway in my head and the Molotov cocktail and all of that. Maybe everyone can't but it's just something I personally identify with Henley's writing. And not necessarily all lyrics or concept, but the way they are composed and "laid out".

Do you think we have such short memories that we won't recall you said this, and that it is exactly the opposite of your new "point" not only in this thread, but in others as well?

This may sound harsh, but I must say it. Stop the BS. You are insulting our intelligence and embarrassing yourself.

WalshFan88
02-05-2012, 03:33 PM
You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say. I never said that song was written by Henley.

Maybe you should learn to be a bit kinder in your posts. ;) Insulting your intelligence?! Please! And you say I'm condescending!? And that I state my opinions as fact?! :roll: :rofl: If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. I know just as much as anyone else here. Don't try to one up me all the time or put me down, thanks.

sodascouts
02-05-2012, 03:40 PM
You obviously don't understand what I was trying to say. I never said that song was written by Henley.

Maybe you should learn to be a bit kinder in your posts. ;) Insulting your intelligence?! Please! And you say I'm condescending!? And that I state my opinions as fact?! :roll: :rofl: If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. I know just as much as anyone else here. Don't try to one up me all the time or put me down, thanks.

Yes, my tone was harsh, but I was trying to knock some sense into you! I have no reason to put you down; I have nothing against you. In fact, I think as a rule you are a nice guy. However, when you do something like this, it has to be addressed.

As for your criticisms of me - well, perhaps I do sometimes come off as condescending. I try not to, but nobody's perfect. However, one thing I do not do is try to disavow earlier mistakes and pretend I never made them. When I am corrected, I admit that I was wrong and move on. I have to do that more often than I would like, lol, but I do it nonetheless.

But in your case, it's quite different. Anyone who can read can see what you really meant earlier, but you continue to bluster on. Well, I give up. If you wish to embarrass yourself further, feel free.

WalshFan88
02-05-2012, 03:46 PM
You truly don't understand what I was trying to say. Honestly, if you are saying what you are, you don't get it. If I had the time I would try to write it again and try to write it in a way that you would get it, but I don't have the time nor the energy to waste on doing so.

No one is embarrassing themselves, so lets not try to put that on anyone.

sodascouts
02-05-2012, 04:45 PM
So, moving on, then.

I've always wondered how much one has to contribute to get a songwriting credit, and who makes these decisions.

For instance, we know Joe helped work out guitar parts on "Hotel California", but he doesn't get a songwriting credit. Is it a mutual decision perhaps, between everyone involved?

Then, there's also an issue of name order. Who decides which name goes first on the written credits? Obviously Felder wasn't consulted when his name was kicked out of the front spot of "Hotel California" for the Hell Freezes Over credits, and the fact that he was no longer listed first upset him.

While some may argue that's a petty concern, it obviously means something to songwriters. Look at the big outcry from John Lennon's camp when Paul McCartney listed his name before Lennon's on some songs on one of his albums a few years ago. Yoko Ono even consulted a lawyer about whether or not she could sue to stop him from doing so.

It's a point of pride, perhaps, to have one's name listed first, even if everyone still gets the same amount of money. Thus, I think it'd safe to assume a statement was being made there when Felder's name was moved. Arguably Glenn and Henley were trying to "take him down a peg." Certainly that's how he perceived it.

Scarlet Sun
02-05-2012, 05:32 PM
So, moving on, then.

I've always wondered how much one has to contribute to get a songwriting credit, and who makes these decisions.

For instance, we know Joe helped work out guitar parts on "Hotel California", but he doesn't get a songwriting credit. Is it a mutual decision perhaps, between everyone involved?

Then, there's also an issue of name order. Who decides which name goes first on the written credits? Obviously Felder wasn't consulted when his name was kicked out of the front spot of "Hotel California" for the Hell Freezes Over credits, and the fact that he was no longer listed first upset him.

While some may argue that's a petty concern, it obviously means something to songwriters. Look at the big outcry from John Lennon's camp when Paul McCartney listed his name before Lennon's on some songs on one of his albums a few years ago. Yoko Ono even consulted a lawyer about whether or not she could sue to stop him from doing so.

It's a point of pride, perhaps, to have one's name listed first, even if everyone still gets the same amount of money. Thus, I think it'd safe to assume a statement was being made there when Felder's name was moved. Arguably Glenn and Henley were trying to "take him down a peg." Certainly that's how he perceived it.
Legally, it's melody an lyrics only. But yeah, it really is up to everyone involved and how they feel about it. For example, I think Joe only wrote the guitar intro to Life In The Fast Lane, but since the was written after and around that riff, Don and Glenn felt he deserved a credit, and because he started it, that's probably why he's listed first.

sodascouts
02-05-2012, 06:17 PM
Hmm, interesting. So what happens if there's disagreement about the credits?

Scarlet Sun
02-05-2012, 06:34 PM
Hmm, interesting. So what happens if there's disagreement about the credits?
Bad stuff, i'd imagine. Like lawsuits. Look what happened with Whiter Shade Of Pale

TimothyBFan
02-05-2012, 07:15 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm just now coming in on this and after reading this whole thread, I'm a bit ticked by the whole discussion. At the risk of alienating someone, I'm giving my 2 cents because, frankly, I'm getting a little tired of some people thinking they know so much more than others on here. I have always said that I don't pay much attention to who writes parts of songs/ who even plays on parts of songs/etc.... to me it's just music I love and I can definitely tell you who sings what songs (99% of the time) but that's as far as my knowledge usually goes and I'm not afraid to admit that or bow down to people more knowledgeable than I. BUT---when someone claims to know so much but then states things that are incorrect and then tries to back pedal to save face and explain away something by saying "you don't understand" that's when I take offense. Like Soda said, it's an insult to mine and others intelligence on here. Just because I don't know that stuff makes me no less a fan than someone who knows it and just because you claim to know it doesn't make it so. That's why I DON'T make comments stating things I'm really not sure about.

Case in point of back tracking.....


even "All She Wants To Do Is Dance" plays out in my head. I can see the plane taxing down the runway in my head and the Molotov cocktail and all of that. Maybe everyone can't but it's just something I personally identify with Henley's writing.


I know it was written by someone else - that's my point. Other songwriters can do this too - not just one person.

Not buying it. Sorry!!



. Take It Easy is Glenn's "Hotel California". It sounds like Glenn's writing.


I knew Take It Easy was co-written and it's pretty easy to tell which parts were Glenn's.

The second comment even after several post that had proof that Glenn HIMSELF has stated he came up with ONE line in the song.


Indeed, there are no Eagles songs credited solely to Don Henley.

This was one of the first things that came to mind with all the talk about "recognizing Don's writing". If that's the case then it must be someone who has more time and patience than I do to listen to each line to distinguish which lines he's written.:headscratch:


In my opinion that's two lines, not one line! :grin:

:lol: I say we definitely give him that since that is the most recognizable part of the song that EVERYONE knows unless you've lived under a rock the last 30 or so years.

Let me end this lengthy post/rant by saying this ... I would NEVER claim to know more about the Eagles than several members on this board, namely our fearless leader, Soda -the queen of all Eagles knowledge, Freypower, Dreamer and several others. Even after years on this board, their knowledge still amazes me!! I think some people should learn to just go with that and be ok with the fact you may not know as much as others do. Just my OPINION.

Topkat
02-05-2012, 07:44 PM
As far as I know, even if you add 1 word to a song, you can be given songwriting credit. This is why many of the "new young singers" are sitting in on the songwriting, because of the credit & future royalties.

John Lennon & Paul McCartney had an agreement for songs to be listed as Lennon/McCartney even if only one of them wrote the song. Why Lennon's name was first was because they thought it sounded better, no other reason. I think there was some lawsuit with Yoko over something with Paul on this. (not 100% sure about what happened) That agreement was made over 50 years ago, so who knows????

Generally, the first name listed is the one who wrote most of the song, but the Eagles have changed the order of the writing credits on HC & they also did this on ICTYW, moving TBS name to the end, when it originally was listed first.

Freypower
02-05-2012, 07:55 PM
The Eagles list 'Henley/Frey' just as the Beatles listed 'Lennon/McCartney'. I have never wished to read anything significant into this. That is just the order their names are listed. On LROOE however, What Do I Do With My Heart is listed as 'Frey/Henley'. This is a first.

Topkat
02-05-2012, 08:12 PM
With Lennon/McCartney there is some kind of legal agreement, which is why Yoko made such a fuss about it. I doubt the Eagles have such agreement but we don't know for sure. Generally, name listed first wrote more of the song. To move the names around on future albums, to me says, yes, they are knocking Felder & Schmit down a notch. I don't want to give my opinion on this matter for fear of a huge backlash, so I will just keep it to myself....:headscratch:

TimothyBFan
02-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Generally, the first name listed is the one who wrote most of the song, but the Eagles have changed the order of the writing credits on HC & they also did this on ICTYW, moving TBS name to the end, when it originally was listed first.

Again, something I have no knowledge of but wonder why they have moved their names around like that. :headscratch:

ETA: Just saw your last post TK---does make you wonder a bit, doesn't it. :unimpressed:

sodascouts
02-05-2012, 09:03 PM
With Lennon/McCartney there is some kind of legal agreement, which is why Yoko made such a fuss about it.

I did a little research, just for curiosity's sake, and it turns out there was no "set in stone" agreement - more of a "yeah, let's do it that way" agreement. At least, that's what McCartney claims according to the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-151712/Let-Beatle-credits-Yoko-tells-Sir-Paul.html).


I doubt the Eagles have such agreement but we don't know for sure. Generally, name listed first wrote more of the song. To move the names around on future albums, to me says, yes, they are knocking Felder & Schmit down a notch.

That's what I think, too, but I always keep in mind that I don't know for sure. Certainly it appears that way, though.

Topkat
02-05-2012, 09:40 PM
I did a little research, just for curiosity's sake, and it turns out there was no "set in stone" agreement - more of a "yeah, let's do it that way" agreement. At least, that's what McCartney claims according to the Daily Mail.


That's an interesting article, but it does say there was an "agreement" to do the names that way. Maybe it wasn't a legal document, but there was a pattern set, which upset Yoko when Paul tried to change it.....It's weird because there are songs that are just Paul's....I can see that he may want lead credit for it, but it's a touchy area, especially after so much time has passed.

sodascouts
02-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Hmm, interesting. So what happens if there's disagreement about the credits?
Bad stuff, i'd imagine. Like lawsuits. Look what happened with Whiter Shade Of Pale

Ah yes! Fisher sued and received co-writing credit after 38 years. I wonder how one goes about proving such things?

I remember reading that a lawsuit was once brought against Stevie Nicks by a woman claiming to have written portions of "Sara." It was without merit, but Stevie still had to dig out proof that she had recorded a demo of the song before the plaintiff Carol Hinton had sent her song, also called "Sara," to Warner Brothers.

VAisForEagleLovers
02-06-2012, 12:17 AM
What I find interesting is that besides the credits on the albums/CDs, there's what's recorded in the Songwriters Hall of Fame. They generally always put the inductee's name last, but not always. In almost every case for Henley, Glenn's name appears before his, and Felder's is listed first for HC (for both Don and Glenn). In almost every case for Glenn, Henley's name appears first.

What I can't figure out is the publisher. There are some credits for Don where Cass County isn't listed as a publisher, and in general where there is both Cass County and Red Cloud, Cass County is listed first.

Detailed song list for Don:
http://songwritershalloffame.org/index.php/songs/detailed/C127/P0/

Detailed song list for Glenn:
http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/songs/detailed/C129

Freypower
02-06-2012, 02:14 AM
Some of Don's solo songs were published by Wisteria Music and before that Woody Creek Music. Cass County Music was for the Eagles before LROOE. His LROOE songs are listed under Privet Songs.

I would rather not assume that 'name listed first wrote more of the song' in the case of Henley/Frey. I think it is the same as Lennon/McCartney; 'let's do it this way'.

sodascouts
02-06-2012, 03:34 AM
It's all quite confusing for Don Henley, especially since there are different publishers for different songwriters involved in the song and they are not in any particular order in the case of the Hall of Fame credits. Cass County Music was Don's publisher during his time in the Eagles until 1980. (Trivia: Cass County Music is named after the county where he grew up. I always think of that Texas county when I see the name. Eagles fans who use YouTube probably think of something else when they see the phrase "Cass County" though! ;) )

At any rate, like many artists, Don published his solo music under a different umbrella - an umbrella which has changed several times. Therefore, the others are harder to sort out. Most recently, his publishing was transferred to Warner/Chappell, as detailed here (http://www.businessofcinema.com/news.php?newsid=15595). According to that article, they have been handling him since 1993, although apparently not always under that name. If one wanted to take the effort to do so, one could probably determine a timeline for his various publishers. I am not that person, however, lol.

With Glenn it's nice and straightforward. Since 1972 it's been Red Cloud all the way. There are a few exceptions: some songs that appear on soundtracks, as well as some of the songs co-written with JD (no periods please) Souther. Overall, though, Sugar keeps it simple!

FP - I'm sure I've read Glenn say the Henley/Frey name order was an informal agreement somewhere, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

sodascouts
02-06-2012, 03:49 AM
BTW, here are Don Felder's feelings about the name order change, in his words (see full article here (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2008/08/qa_with_former_eagles_guitaris.php)):
"But I did want to say something about “Hotel California.” When I wrote that song and that track, and we put it on the album, on the original vinyl in 1976, the credits read, “ Hotel California,’ written by Don Felder, Don Henley and Glenn Frey.” And typically when songwriters write together, the person who wrote the most of that song is listed first, the person who wrote the second amount is listed second, and the person who wrote the least is listed third. If you look at the ’76 vinyl, that’s the credits. When we reformed in 1994, and we re-recorded “Hotel California,” which is, as far as I know, the only song recorded twice, by the same band, and has been nominated for Grammys both times. But on those credits, after I rearranged the whole track, wrote the introduction, wrote the solos, wrote everything, and Don Henley did nothing different from what he’d done before, and Glenn Frey added nothing to it in ’94, the credits read, “‘Hotel California,’ written by Don Henley, Glenn Frey and Don Felder.”

I couldn’t say anything publicly about it when I was in a band, but to me that’s the classic example of greed, power and control. Somebody who would seize something like that credit for themselves, to elevate themselves in history unfairly and unjustly over what they’d done – it’s a shame to me. But despite all of that small stuff, I didn’t care about that. The fact that I was able to write something that was part of being such a legendary hit means everything to me."

Coincidentally, Felder sued Glenn, Henley, and Azoff for $200 million on this day in 2001!

Henley Honey
02-06-2012, 06:42 AM
with JD (no periods please) Souther.




:rofl:

chaim
02-06-2012, 06:48 AM
It seems to me that sometimes who originated a song is more important than the amount of that contribution in the finished result. For example, if person A writes a little riff and a song is built from that, he/she is credited. But if the song already exists and he/she writes the same riff to this existing song, he/she isn't necessarily credited. As a KISS fan I must mention (I believe I have mentioned this before too...) some of those early KISS songs that were Paul's. Gene wrote his basslines and in some cases the guitarists decided to play Gene's bassline too, so it became the main riff of the song. Still Gene wasn't credited, and didn't want to be, for his little contribution, because the actual songs were Paul's.
When someone harmonizes (writes chords for) an existing melody by someone else, he/she isn't necessarily credited. But if he/she writes the same chords and someone later adds a melody to it, the writer of the chords is credited too. So all this stuff is somewhat confusing to me.
A good example of disagreement over credits is "A whiter shade of pale", I think. The song already existed when Matthew Fisher joined Procol Harum. As far as I know, Gary Brooker (the composer of the song) wanted something Bach-like for the intro and played something Bach-like with his piano before Fisher joined as an organist. Then, when Fisher had joined the band and later came the time to record the song, he took different stuff he had improvised earlier and came up with that classic intro. But it said "Brooker/Reid". Reid wrote the lyrics, of course. Brooker always thought of Fisher's contribution as another part of a player. Fisher, however, thought of it as part of the composition and sued the band about fourty years after the song was recorded. He did get his name in there and, as I understand, his share of the future royalties. But he didn't get money from past sales when he asked for that. I understand that Brooker had to play in court what he had played for the intro before Fisher joined. It was crazy, but then again, court cases often are...

Topkat
02-06-2012, 06:17 PM
When someone harmonizes (writes chords for) an existing melody by someone else, he/she isn't necessarily credited. But if he/she writes the same chords and someone later adds a melody to it, the writer of the chords is credited too. So all this stuff is somewhat confusing to me.

I'm pretty sure the person who writes chords for an existing melody by someone else would get credit. You can get a writing credit for only adding or changing a few words of a song. It is confusing, but I think if someone felt they added something to a song, especially a "hit" song, & they weren't credited, they would fight for it & sue. It's sometimes big money involved. These guys are collecting royalties for songs written 50 years ago. It's an income. The singer doesn't collect the royalties, the writers do.

I heard Pete Townshend makes tons of money from the Who songs played on all 3 CSI shows everyday, but Roger & the rest of the band don't.

Ive always been a dreamer
02-06-2012, 08:29 PM
I don't think there are any set rules about who gets credit other than what SS said that legally the royalties go to the writers of the melody and lyrics. At least, that's what I found out in a web search. It's pretty much up to the individuals involved as to who is given credit. To me, it seems like the writer(s) of the music should be legally entitled to royalites as well, but apparently that's not the case. Singers can get sales or performance royalties if it is written in their contract.

Bringing this back to the Eagles, assuming the above information is correct, in the case of Hotel California - legally they didn't have to give Felder any credit at all. It definitely was the fair thing to do though, IMO. I've always been curious as to why Joe wasn't given credit as well for his contribution, but I guess they were all okay with that decision at the time.

And I agree with Soda that I have read where Don and Glenn agreed early on to use Henley/Frey on writing credits mainly because they thought it sounded better just like Lennon/McCartney.

Scarlet Sun
02-06-2012, 09:20 PM
Bringing this back to the Eagles, assuming the above information is correct, in the case of Hotel California - legally they didn't have to give Felder any credit at all. It definitely was the fair thing to do though, IMO. I've always been curious as to why Joe wasn't given credit as well for his contribution, but I guess they were all okay with that decision at the time.
Are we sure that Felder only wrote the chord progression and not the melody too? Also, guitar solos are seldom, if ever, considered part of the composition.

Freypower
02-06-2012, 09:32 PM
BTW, here are Don Felder's feelings about the name order change, in his words (see full article here (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2008/08/qa_with_former_eagles_guitaris.php)):

"But I did want to say something about “Hotel California.” When I wrote that song and that track, and we put it on the album, on the original vinyl in 1976, the credits read, “ Hotel California,’ written by Don Felder, Don Henley and Glenn Frey.” And typically when songwriters write together, the person who wrote the most of that song is listed first, the person who wrote the second amount is listed second, and the person who wrote the least is listed third. If you look at the ’76 vinyl, that’s the credits. When we reformed in 1994, and we re-recorded “Hotel California,” which is, as far as I know, the only song recorded twice, by the same band, and has been nominated for Grammys both times. But on those credits, after I rearranged the whole track, wrote the introduction, wrote the solos, wrote everything, and Don Henley did nothing different from what he’d done before, and Glenn Frey added nothing to it in ’94, the credits read, “‘Hotel California,’ written by Don Henley, Glenn Frey and Don Felder.”

I couldn’t say anything publicly about it when I was in a band, but to me that’s the classic example of greed, power and control. Somebody who would seize something like that credit for themselves, to elevate themselves in history unfairly and unjustly over what they’d done – it’s a shame to me. But despite all of that small stuff, I didn’t care about that. The fact that I was able to write something that was part of being such a legendary hit means everything to me."

Coincidentally, Felder sued Glenn, Henley, and Azoff for $200 million on this day in 2001!


I don't know about all this 'elevate themselves unfairly' stuff. Look at the beginning of the quote: 'When I wrote that song and that track'.

He doesn't get it. It works both ways. If Frey/Henley have 'elevated themselves unfairly' so has he.

He has a case for being upset that his name was placed last in 1994, but he still clings to this apparent belief that he wrote the entire song.

Ive always been a dreamer
02-06-2012, 10:14 PM
Are we sure that Felder only wrote the chord progression and not the melody too? Also, guitar solos are seldom, if ever, considered part of the composition.

Well - that is very interesting that guitar solos aren't considered part of the composition. To me, they should be. Sometimes that's the best part. :grin:

And, again, I don't think we know much of anything for sure about who wrote what. I based this on that I don't recall Felder ever taking specific credit for writing the melody in HC, whereas he has said that he contributed to the melody in Victim of Love.

Also, I'm reposting part of what Glenn said in The Very Best of ... liner notes, which I think implies that he and Henley wrote the melody ...


Almost everybody in my business can write music, play guitar, play piano, create chord progressions, etc., but it's only when you add lyrics and melody and voices to these things that they take on an identity and become something beyond that sum of the individual parts.

chaim
02-07-2012, 04:27 AM
I'm pretty sure the person who writes chords for an existing melody by someone else would get credit. You can get a writing credit for only adding or changing a few words of a song. It is confusing, but I think if someone felt they added something to a song, especially a "hit" song, & they weren't credited, they would fight for it & sue. It's sometimes big money involved. These guys are collecting royalties for songs written 50 years ago. It's an income. The singer doesn't collect the royalties, the writers do.

I heard Pete Townshend makes tons of money from the Who songs played on all 3 CSI shows everyday, but Roger & the rest of the band don't.

It my vary, depending which country we are talking about? Here in Finland is seems to be the case that adding chords is not "writing". A friend of mine, for example, wrote the chords for a well-known song (well-known in Finland, that is) at some point in the late 60's or early 70's. He wasn't credited, because he just harmonized an existing melody. He may have been credited for arranging the song; I'm not sure. There are other cases as well that I'm aware of. I've been in this situation myself a few times. Personally I think that the choice of chords has a LOT to do with how the melody affects the listener. But it seems to me that at least in Finland harmonizing a melody isn't "writing". One of my friends actually told me once that it isn't "officially" part of the writing.

sodascouts
02-07-2012, 04:42 AM
That seems to jive with what Scarlet Sun said, unless i misunderstood him. Like you, he's a professional who knows what he's talking about.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you guys have said, it sounds like any additional credits besides melody and lyrics are bestowed out of nicety rather than out of legal obligation. Other than "Whiter Shade of Pale" I can't recall any other prominent legal battles. I'm sure there must be others that I'm unfamiliar with, but it doesn't seem to be commonplace.

chaim
02-07-2012, 06:33 AM
I must say at this point that I'm not a proffessional. The examples I mentioned that had to do with myself were songs by a friend of mine and he never actually released them on CD. But a couple of songs by this same friend (on earlier versions of which I played) were later released by another group and in those the writer of the chords certainly wasn't credited. I don't think that record had any of the songs I had written chords for. This friend of mine could never (at least couldn't then) come up with chords for his melodies, but he was darn good at writing melodies. Violin and mandolin stuff.

As for Soda's "out of nicety" question, I'm afraid I don't have the answer. It seems to me that there are hundreds of musicians who feel they should have been credited (as songwriters) for the little parts they played with their beloved instruments. This is a bizarre area and I really don't know much about it. Freddie Mercury used to think (at least in the seventies) that whoever wrote the lyrics, wrote the song! So they pretty much went with that in the early days. Brian May has said that he wrote the bridge for Freddie's "Seven seas of Rhye", but Freddie's "whoever wrote the lyric, wrote the song" principle prevented Brian from being credited. "Liar" on Queen's first album has music from various people, but Freddie wrote the lyric, so it's a "Mercury" song. Not that Freddie didn't write an awful lot of music. He was an amazing pop/rock composer and wrote tons of songs by himself. I guess it's pretty much up to the artists themselves who gets credited. There are many cases where a person has written music or some lyrics, but wasn't credited. Using Gene Simmons as an example once again, he wrote a whole instrumental section for an early song of Ace Frehley's, but didn't feel like asking to be credited for that. It's one of their best-known songs today, but as far as I know, Mr. Simmons has never cried over it.

Topkat
02-07-2012, 06:05 PM
Freypower
I don't know about all this 'elevate themselves unfairly' stuff. Look at the beginning of the quote: 'When I wrote that song and that track'.

He doesn't get it. It works both ways. If Frey/Henley have 'elevated themselves unfairly' so has he.

He has a case for being upset that his name was placed last in 1994, but he still clings to this apparent belief that he wrote the entire song.
__________________

I have to side with Don Felder in this case. Henley/Frey obviously gave Felder first credit originally when the song first came out, therefore acknowledging that he wrote most of the song.....To change it later in 1994, & give him last credit is unfair & it was knocking his contribution.....It was an obvious dig to Felder... He wasn't elevating his contribution, it was rightfully his.

Ive always been a dreamer
02-07-2012, 08:22 PM
"I couldn’t say anything publicly about it when I was in a band, but to me that’s the classic example of greed, power and control. Somebody who would seize something like that credit for themselves, to elevate themselves in history unfairly and unjustly over what they’d done – it’s a shame to me. But despite all of that small stuff, I didn’t care about that. The fact that I was able to write something that was part of being such a legendary hit means everything to me."

This part of the article that Soda posted is where I have a lot of problems with Felder. Even though, again, we don't know all the details of how this went down, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that this is "a classic example of greed, power and control". Felder constantly writes, speaks, and complains about these things, but always turns right around and says things like 'but I didn't care about that'. BS! If he didn't care about it so much he wouldn't constantly dwell on it even to this day.

I agree from everything that's been written here that, at least in the U.S., it seems the only components that are legally recognized for a songwriting credit are the lyrics and melody. So, I guess that there may not have been any legal requirement to credit Felder on the song. I guess Henley/Frey giveth, and then they decided to taketh away. As I said, I personally don't agree with the legal definition though. I absolutely think that music is a huge component of a song and the writer should be credited. I'm glad that Felder was recognized for his part in Hotel Calfornia. It was the right thing to do, IMHO.

And if we use Freddie Mercury's standards, then Elton John doesn't even qualify as a songwriter, does he? I guess he may have written some lyrics, but I believe Bernie Taupin has written about 99% of the lyrics for Elton's songs.

Freypower
02-07-2012, 08:32 PM
Freypower

I have to side with Don Felder in this case. Henley/Frey obviously gave Felder first credit originally when the song first came out, therefore acknowledging that he wrote most of the song.....To change it later in 1994, & give him last credit is unfair & it was knocking his contribution.....It was an obvious dig to Felder... He wasn't elevating his contribution, it was rightfully his.

He elevates his contribution every time he says 'I wrote Hotel California' which he does again in the quotation I posted; and that is what I object to, his endless insistence that 'he' wrote it.

The key word in your own post is MOST.

Scarlet Sun
02-07-2012, 08:36 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you guys have said, it sounds like any additional credits besides melody and lyrics are bestowed out of nicety rather than out of legal obligation. Other than "Whiter Shade of Pale" I can't recall any other prominent legal battles. I'm sure there must be others that I'm unfamiliar with, but it doesn't seem to be commonplace.
Yes, it basically it is nicety. Los Lobos didn't think Paul Simon was being very nice in this situation, but they didn't sue:

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/04/rhymin-simon-no.html

Whiter Shade Of Pale was very noteworthy case because it took 38 years for the claim to be made and because Fisher was granted 40% credit for the music for an organ solo.

Songwriting litigation is rare and usually involves claims of plagiarization. I can think of one other case that concerned credits, and that's when Mike Love successfully sued Brian Wilson for failing to credit him for writing the lyrics to many Beach Boys songs.

Topkat
02-07-2012, 09:14 PM
After reading that interview with Steve Berlin from Los Lobos, sounds like the guy is full of it.
Talking about Simon, "People forget, before Graceland he was viewed as a colossal failure. He was low." Maybe he should go check Simon's bio & see what kind of "failure" he was. He's got 13 Grammys, Lifetime Achievement Award, is one of the Top 100 People Who Shaped the World, by Time magazine,,,
Even after Simon & Garfunkel broke up his solo albums were all major successes & had huge hits. I could go on and on about Paul Simon's achievements, before Graceland.
What kind of trash talk is that. Believe me, they would have sued if they had any real credibility. He's full of crap!
Please, can you say JEALOUS MUCH.

whitcap
02-07-2012, 10:24 PM
Perhaps he figures the fact that he wrote the music is implied when he says he wrote HC or maybe when he refers to HC he is simply refering to the music. I think anyone watching or reading these interviews is probably familiar with Don Felder and his role in writing HC beforehand. He gave them credit for the lyrics in his book and I've heard at least one interview where the lyrics came up and he clarified that Henley and Frey wrote the lyrics.

chaim
02-08-2012, 04:11 AM
And if we use Freddie Mercury's standards, then Elton John doesn't even qualify as a songwriter, does he? I guess he may have written some lyrics, but I believe Bernie Taupin has written about 99% of the lyrics for Elton's songs.

I hope you realized that this was not my opinion. My point was that it seems that the artists can also decide what is worthy of a credit and what is not in their own music. Of course it's silly to think that the lyricist should be the only one credited and I'm sure no one in the band really agreed with Mr. Mercury. Brian certainly didn't.

sodascouts
02-08-2012, 04:36 AM
Wow, I'd never heard that about Paul Simon before. Ouch.

As for Felder's credit, I think it's reasonable to believe he wrote most, if not all, of the music, and not just the chord progression. There's a reason his name went first on that album, and it wasn't because Henley and Frey were being sweet, lol. In the eagerness to ensure Frey and Henley get appropriate credit, let's not minimize Felder's contribution.

EaglesKiwi
02-08-2012, 05:14 AM
This part of the article that Soda posted is where I have a lot of problems with Felder. Even though, again, we don't know all the details of how this went down, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that this is "a classic example of greed, power and control". Felder constantly writes, speaks, and complains about these things, but always turns right around and says things like 'but I didn't care about that'. BS! If he didn't care about it so much he wouldn't constantly dwell on it even to this day.
My thoughts exactly!

The first time I opened this article I had to close it again because I was fuming!

chaim
02-08-2012, 05:40 AM
Wow, I'd never heard that about Paul Simon before. Ouch.

As for Felder's credit, I think it's reasonable to believe he wrote most, if not all, of the music, and not just the chord progression. There's a reason his name went first on that album, and it wasn't because Henley and Frey were being sweet, lol. In the eagerness to ensure Frey and Henley get appropriate credit, let's not minimize Felder's contribution.

I understand that the person who originates a song is often mentioned first, unless there's a fixed order of names that has been agreed upon (Lennon/McCartney). So although someone's name is mentioned first, it doesn't necessarily even mean that he wrote most of it. Although in this case we know that Felder wrote at least all the essential music that is not sung.

TimothyBFan
02-08-2012, 09:38 AM
Wow- I've never been a Paul Simon fan, this article made me happy I'm not! What an *ss! What a shame they didn't get credit for that song. Guess it proves that what's written on the liner notes isn't always fact.

chaim
02-08-2012, 10:50 AM
Wow- I've never been a Paul Simon fan, this article made me happy I'm not! What an *ss! What a shame they didn't get credit for that song. Guess it proves that what's written on the liner notes isn't always fact.

Certain YES members and one Status Quo member have complained about how the credits often don't tell the whole story of who wrote the songs in their bands! In fact Rick Wakeman once said, "Never believe the credits on albums", referring to YES albums.

Topkat
02-08-2012, 11:16 AM
Wow- I've never been a Paul Simon fan, this article made me happy I'm not! What an *ss! What a shame they didn't get credit for that song. Guess it proves that what's written on the liner notes isn't always fact.
__________________

Just because someone is claiming credit for a song in some interview, does NOT mean it's true...If he had any real claim to the song, he would have sued. Sorry, not buying this story. Paul Simon doesn't need to claim a song for himself, when he has so many hits.
Anybody can say anything, doesn't mean it's the truth.

TimothyBFan
02-08-2012, 11:57 AM
__________________

Just because someone is claiming credit for a song in some interview, does NOT mean it's true...If he had any real claim to the song, he would have sued. Sorry, not buying this story. Paul Simon doesn't need to claim a song for himself, when he has so many hits.
Anybody can say anything, doesn't mean it's the truth.

I agree but I also can't see it being made up just to pick on Mr. Simon. I did some research after reading it this morning and see several articles and different times it's been brought up in interviews over the years. What purpose would they have to make up a story like that and about him being in the studio with no material, especially since it doesn't look as if they've changed their story at all over the years. Just saying.....

Topkat
02-08-2012, 12:49 PM
I agree but I also can't see it being made up just to pick on Mr. Simon. I did some research after reading it this morning and see several articles and different times it's been brought up in interviews over the years. What purpose would they have to make up a story like that and about him being in the studio with no material, especially since it doesn't look as if they've changed their story at all over the years. Just saying.....

First of all I find it so hard to believe he came with "no material". The guy is a freekin' musical genius.
Why would he make it up? To trash a major songwriter, with way more fame & success than he has....Like I said JEALOUSY....
Anybody can go around & spread a story. To call him a "colossal failure" just tells me it's sour grapes. There are tons of rumors out there.
He obviously doesn't like the guy, but Simon doesn't need any accolades from him. Simon probably just laughs it off, as he should.

TimothyBFan
02-08-2012, 02:01 PM
First of all I find it so hard to believe he came with "no material". The guy is a freekin' musical genius.
Why would he make it up? To trash a major songwriter, with way more fame & success than he has....Like I said JEALOUSY....
Anybody can go around & spread a story. To call him a "colossal failure" just tells me it's sour grapes. There are tons of rumors out there.
He obviously doesn't like the guy, but Simon doesn't need any accolades from him. Simon probably just laughs it off, as he should.

Ok, calm down.:wink: I see your passion for Mr. Simon & understand your need to defend him which is quite fine but I, myself, do choose to believe the story which is quite fine also. Only a few people know the true story and they're sticking to their stories.

Topkat
02-08-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm sure there are lots of people who feel they don't get the credit that they deserve. It probably happens a lot more than we ever hear about. It's up to them whether or not they want to take it to a lawsuit, or spread rumors about the artist. I think if someone feels that strongly about their contribution, they would take it to the next level. If not, then they should just shut up. To badmouth artists or spread stories is just pathetic and only reflects poorly on themselves. . If your contributions are valid....then tell it to the judge!
This guy should have something better to discuss in an interview than this.

Scarlet Sun
02-08-2012, 03:34 PM
If they didn't write any lyrics or melody, they can't sue. That doesn't mean the story isn't true.

Freypower
02-08-2012, 05:56 PM
First of all I find it so hard to believe he came with "no material". The guy is a freekin' musical genius.
Why would he make it up? To trash a major songwriter, with way more fame & success than he has....Like I said JEALOUSY....
Anybody can go around & spread a story. To call him a "colossal failure" just tells me it's sour grapes. There are tons of rumors out there.
He obviously doesn't like the guy, but Simon doesn't need any accolades from him. Simon probably just laughs it off, as he should.

At the time Graceland was released Paul's career had been in something of a trough, with Hearts & Bones, a commercial failure. Graceland took him back to the top.

Topkat
02-08-2012, 07:14 PM
Hearts & Bones may not have been his most successful album, but his career was hardly over. This was a time when disco was prominent & every career has it's slower years. He wrote all the songs & stared in the movie, "One Trick Pony"
Warner Brother's didn't even want to release Graceland.

If you want to believe this guys story that Simon stole his songs, be my guest. I doubt it. He has zero proof. He can talk all he wants. Simon credited many people on the Graceland album. He could have sued, but obviously he doesn't think he has a case or he would have.

BramwenR
06-25-2012, 05:11 PM
With all due respect to Don as a guitarist, a singer he is not..sorry, but I think he should just not sing Hotel California..it's a Henley song, I watched a clip of him at some awards ceremony last night (from January I think) and it was off key, lacked power and the magic.

chaim
06-29-2012, 02:38 PM
With all due respect to Don as a guitarist, a singer he is not..sorry, but I think he should just not sing Hotel California..it's a Henley song, I watched a clip of him at some awards ceremony last night (from January I think) and it was off key, lacked power and the magic.

But when he sings it, some people probably start to think that he wrote the melodies/lyrics too. And if they do, I'm sure that doesn't bother Don.:wink:

Freypower
06-29-2012, 06:36 PM
But when he sings it, some people probably start to think that he wrote the melodies/lyrics too. And if they do, I'm sure that doesn't bother Don.:wink:

Do they also think that about the other Eagles songs he sings such as Already Gone & Heartache Tonight?

If Felder wishes to perpetuate this myth about the authorship of HC, this is up to him, but it is also up to people who know it is a myth to continue to point this out.

Topkat
06-30-2012, 10:13 AM
Do they also think that about the other Eagles songs he sings such as Already Gone & Heartache Tonight?

If Felder wishes to perpetuate this myth about the authorship of HC, this is up to him, but it is also up to people who know it is a myth to continue to point this out.

I think people who go see Felder live know the story about HC, as well as the other Eagle songs he may sing. When someone sings a song, it doesn't mean they are claiming they wrote it. People sing songs written by others all the time. I think his fans are more into his guitar playing, & that is why they are there. Felder is not the greatest singer, but his guitar playing is superb. JMO

chaim
07-01-2012, 05:37 AM
I think people who go see Felder live know the story about HC, as well as the other Eagle songs he may sing. When someone sings a song, it doesn't mean they are claiming they wrote it. People sing songs written by others all the time. I think his fans are more into his guitar playing, & that is why they are there. Felder is not the greatest singer, but his guitar playing is superb. JMO

You are correct, and I didn't say that he's making such claims by singing it. I just said, kind of jokingly, that it's probably a nice bonus for him if someone thinks he contributed a lot to the lyrics and melodies too.

chaim
01-23-2014, 02:05 PM
Going through interviews in the Rock's Backpages website, like I said in another thread. Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Don F - from 1980. I don't remember anybody mention(ing) it.

We actually recorded the basic track three times. I wrote it at home on my Teac four-track, and I did all the guitar lines and the melody and presented it to the band. It was written in e-minor, but as Don and Glenn and I worked on the lyrics and the vocal arrangement, it turned out we needed it to be in B-minor. We recut the basic track twice in B-minor which is a terrible key to play guitar in. It took us ten or twelve days just to get the basic tracks together.

Freypower
01-23-2014, 04:51 PM
Going through interviews in the Rock's Backpages website, like I said in another thread. Here's an interesting quote from an interview with Don F - from 1980. I don't remember anybody mention(ing) it.

We actually recorded the basic track three times. I wrote it at home on my Teac four-track, and I did all the guitar lines and the melody and presented it to the band. It was written in e-minor, but as Don and Glenn and I worked on the lyrics and the vocal arrangement, it turned out we needed it to be in B-minor. We recut the basic track twice in B-minor which is a terrible key to play guitar in. It took us ten or twelve days just to get the basic tracks together.

This was a long time ago. He no longer claims he had anything to do with the lyrics. As for the melody I am prepared to say that he came up with some of it, but not all of it, after Glenn's statement in HOTE that the song was completed by himself & Henley based on Felder's opening chord progression. And I am going no further than that, because everybody, Felder included, wants to push their own agenda & the entire truth will never be known.

Tiffanny Twisted
01-23-2014, 07:03 PM
With all due respect to Don as a guitarist, a singer he is not..sorry, but I think he should just not sing Hotel California..it's a Henley song, I watched a clip of him at some awards ceremony last night (from January I think) and it was off key, lacked power and the magic.


I agree...singing isn't his strong suit..lead singing especially:thumbsup:jmo

randymeisnerrocks
01-24-2014, 01:05 PM
This was a long time ago. He no longer claims he had anything to do with the lyrics. As for the melody I am prepared to say that he came up with some of it, but not all of it, after Glenn's statement in HOTE that the song was completed by himself & Henley based on Felder's opening chord progression. And I am going no further than that, because everybody, Felder included, wants to push their own agenda & the entire truth will never be known.

I was not aware he ever said that. Is there a quote of him saying that he wrote the lyrics?

randymeisnerrocks
01-24-2014, 01:25 PM
All this talk about writer's credit and how the actual music doesn't count has me somewhat confused. Here's what I don't get:


Vanilla Ice was sued by Queen over the use of one single simple bassline from their song "Under Pressure" in his song "Ice, Ice Baby."


MC Hammer was sued by Rick James over using part of the music from "Superfreak" in "U Can't Touch This."


Weird Al had to pay Coolio for using the music from "Gangsta's Paradise" in his parody "Amish Paradise."
In all three of these examples, the original songs were recognized by the courts as the original artists' property (and royalties were paid to the owner) based soley on the music. Lyrics never even came into it! So tell me again how it is that the person who wrote the music of a song should not be given songwriting credit? I really believe that is incorrect.

Clarification: Not saying the person who wrote the music is the COMPLETE owner of the song but a co-owner, along with the originator of the lyrics.

Freypower
01-24-2014, 11:25 PM
I was not aware he ever said that. Is there a quote of him saying that he wrote the lyrics?

Please refer to chaim's post just above my response, where chaim quotes Felder as saying:

as Don and Glenn and I worked on the lyrics

which chaim states is taken from a 1980 interview.

Obviously 'worked on' is not the same as 'wrote' but this is the only example of a quote from him I have ever seen which even hints that he had any involvement with the song's lyrics. He no longer claims this in any way.

Ive always been a dreamer
01-25-2014, 03:00 PM
All this talk about writer's credit and how the actual music doesn't count has me somewhat confused. Here's what I don't get:


Vanilla Ice was sued by Queen over the use of one single simple bassline from their song "Under Pressure" in his song "Ice, Ice Baby."



MC Hammer was sued by Rick James over using part of the music from "Superfreak" in "U Can't Touch This."



Weird Al had to pay Coolio for using the music from "Gangsta's Paradise" in his parody "Amish Paradise."

In all three of these examples, the original songs were recognized by the courts as the original artists' property (and royalties were paid to the owner) based soley on the music. Lyrics never even came into it! So tell me again how it is that the person who wrote the music of a song should not be given songwriting credit? I really believe that is incorrect.

Clarification: Not saying the person who wrote the music is the COMPLETE owner of the song but a co-owner, along with the originator of the lyrics.

I think if you go back and read the discussion in this thread, what I and others said is that, according to research on the web, legally in the U.S. the writers of the melody and lyrics are entitled to royalties. However, it's pretty much up to the artists' discretion as to who is given songwriting credit. The bottom line is that whoever is given songwriting credit is entitled to royalties and copyright protection.

randymeisnerrocks
01-25-2014, 03:31 PM
I think if you go back and read the discussion in this thread, what I and others said is that, according to research on the web, legally in the U.S. the writers of the melody and lyrics are entitled to royalties. However, it's pretty much up to the artists' discretion as to who is given songwriting credit. The bottom line is that whoever is given songwriting credit is entitled to royalties and copyright protection.

I understand the point you make. I just don't agree with it.

Ive always been a dreamer
01-25-2014, 03:43 PM
In your post that I responded to, you said it was incorrect, which is different than not agreeing with it. As I stated earlier in the thread, if that's what the law is, I don't agree with it's premise either. If anyone can find where the facts are misstated here, I hope they will let us know. :thumbsup:

randymeisnerrocks
01-25-2014, 03:46 PM
In your post that I responded to, you said it was incorrect, which is different than not agreeing with it. As I stated earlier in the thread, if that's what the law is, I don't agree with it's premise either. If anyone can find where the facts are misstated here, I hope they will let us know. :thumbsup:

I disagree because I believe that you are incorrect.

sodascouts
01-25-2014, 03:53 PM
RMR, dreamer is talking about things being factually correct or incorrect when she uses the term in this context.

chaim
09-04-2014, 11:48 AM
This has nothing to do with Don Felder, but it concerns the writing of HC, which has been discussed a lot here. I browsed through old music magazines in (at?) a flea market. I didn't end up buying any, but I read part of an interview with Don Henley. I think the interview was from 2000 or 2001, and it was the Q magazine or something like that. When he talked about Glenn as a writer, he said that Glenn has a great "understanding of street language". And then he mentioned as an example Glenn going "such a lovely face" after Don went "welcome to the Hotel California". Being Finnish, I don't know what that has to do with street language, but that's what he said.
Then he said that he originally went "Welcome to the Hotel California" twice, but Glenn said "You can't sing that twice", so they added "Plenty of room..." and, of course, "They're living it up..." for the second chorus. So to me it seemed like Glenn was kind of overseeing the writing of the lyrics.

sodascouts
09-04-2014, 09:19 PM
Fascinating! I had not heard this before.

MaryCalifornia
09-04-2014, 10:04 PM
Thanks, Chaim, that is interesting. To me, more than Glenn overseeing, this is just an example of two great songwriters working together to make their song the best it can be. Good ideas coming from two directions. It's so strange to hear the original version of lyrics to a famous song that end up getting changed to the version we all know. "Livin' it up" and "plenty of room" are such great lines, can't imagine the song without them!

Zanny Kingston
09-06-2014, 09:34 PM
Very interesting piece Chaim. In a lot of ways it reinforces what I have often felt about the Frey/Henley songwriting partnership. They balance and compliment each other, and magic happened when they partnered. That's why they still have fans discovering this band 40 years later, and that music will stand the test of time for many years to come.

Sebastian
12-24-2014, 04:25 AM
Fascinating thread, and I've learnt a lot from it.

In Freddie Mercury's defence, the whole idea about his alleged 'standards' is based on comments from other people, which have been taken out of context. He's been dead for over two decades so he can't clear it up, and during his lifetime there was no (that I know of) actual direct quote that can be verifiable via video, audio or even a printed interview.

The story, as far as I know, is that 'Liar' and 'Seven Seas of Rhye', and probably other songs, included bits and pieces from different people while the songs took shape. When it came to crediting, Freddie claimed them both on the basis that he'd come up with the germinal idea and had written the majority (or perhaps entirety) of lyrics, possibly including the melodies going with those lyrics. What that illustrated was that in that case they'd go for that.

Queen music had cases that weren't quite like that, and credits reflect so: Freddie allegedly wrote the lyrics of 'Is This the World We Created,' yet credits mention both him and Brian (the latter having been the one who came up with the chord progression). Same for 'Machines' (Brian wrote the lyrics, Roger still got credited since he co-wrote the music).

What credits do not count, though, are arrangements. That's why George Martin had no credit (or publishing royalties) for (co-)scoring string quartets, orchestral bits, etc., for The Beatles, that's why Walsh got no credit for his idea about the triads on 'Hotel California' and that's why, to mention Queen again, Freddie completely re-worked both 'Radio Ga Ga' and 'A Kind of Magic' but they were both solely credited to Roger.

At the end of the day, the Henley/Frey partnership seems to have worked, as a friend would say, more like a tennis game than football (soccer for Americans): instead of each person being in charge of one zone/area (as in, so and so wrote the first verse and so and so wrote the second verse), ideas came and went from one to the other, and the final product was a blend of what they'd both agreed on. Lennon/McCartney would work like that although there were also cases of 'jigsaw puzzle' writing such as 'We Can Work It Out' and 'A Day in the Life,' but even then there was some cross-pollination.

chaim
12-24-2014, 05:28 AM
Fascinating thread, and I've learnt a lot from it.

In Freddie Mercury's defence, the whole idea about his alleged 'standards' is based on comments from other people, which have been taken out of context. He's been dead for over two decades so he can't clear it up, and during his lifetime there was no (that I know of) actual direct quote that can be verifiable via video, audio or even a printed interview.

The story, as far as I know, is that 'Liar' and 'Seven Seas of Rhye', and probably other songs, included bits and pieces from different people while the songs took shape. When it came to crediting, Freddie claimed them both on the basis that he'd come up with the germinal idea and had written the majority (or perhaps entirety) of lyrics, possibly including the melodies going with those lyrics. What that illustrated was that in that case they'd go for that.

Queen music had cases that weren't quite like that, and credits reflect so: Freddie allegedly wrote the lyrics of 'Is This the World We Created,' yet credits mention both him and Brian (the latter having been the one who came up with the chord progression). Same for 'Machines' (Brian wrote the lyrics, Roger still got credited since he co-wrote the music).

What credits do not count, though, are arrangements. That's why George Martin had no credit (or publishing royalties) for (co-)scoring string quartets, orchestral bits, etc., for The Beatles, that's why Walsh got no credit for his idea about the triads on 'Hotel California' and that's why, to mention Queen again, Freddie completely re-worked both 'Radio Ga Ga' and 'A Kind of Magic' but they were both solely credited to Roger.

At the end of the day, the Henley/Frey partnership seems to have worked, as a friend would say, more like a tennis game than football (soccer for Americans): instead of each person being in charge of one zone/area (as in, so and so wrote the first verse and so and so wrote the second verse), ideas came and went from one to the other, and the final product was a blend of what they'd both agreed on. Lennon/McCartney would work like that although there were also cases of 'jigsaw puzzle' writing such as 'We Can Work It Out' and 'A Day in the Life,' but even then there was some cross-pollination.

Hey, I've read tons of your cool posts about music on QueenZone. Never made the connection, that you're here here too. Cool! :thumbsup:
Now that I see you on a forum I participate in more, I can ask you, who's the guy playing piano in your avatar?

Sebastian
12-24-2014, 01:17 PM
It's me, about three and a half years ago, back when I weighed about a billion pounds less than now...

sodascouts
12-24-2014, 01:32 PM
Not to get off topic, but you look quite distinguished in that avatar, Sebastian!

Funk 50
12-24-2014, 05:01 PM
I thought I'd read here that Felder wrote the part of Hotel California that was stolen from Jethro Tull, a band the Eagles did support in the early seventies but I've gone back a few pages and read some interesting stuff. Particularly about Paul Simon.

Way back in the sixties, English folk singer, Martin Carthy got a surprise when, Paul Simon, I guy he'd regularly shared a stage with, in Folk clubs in England, recorded his version of Scarborough Fair. Simon didn't and doesn't acknowledge the, what some may call, theft.

Royalty-wise. I'm reminded of Men At Work's worldwide hit, Down Under. After going through court, the publishers are now required to pay a royalty to the estate of a dead musician, who composed the melody for the flute solo, even though the flute player didn't get a royalty for his contribution to the song. It's just blatant opportunistic legal profiteering.

Ian Anderson has mentioned the Hotel California rip-off, sorry I'm unfamiliar with which Tull song it is, but he's declined to sue so far. His estate may have different ideas when he dies.

I wonder if Glenn and Don could counter-sue Felder for offering them somebody else's tune porting to be original material. I suppose they'd have heard the Jethro Tull track too.

Actually, I think Glenn has gone on record as saying that all the time they supported Jethro Tull, they never saw Ian Anderson.

Cunning hey? :razz:

thelastresort
12-24-2014, 05:06 PM
The Jethro Dull song is called We Used to Know. I've heard a radio interview with Anderson where he basically states he doesn't think there's much to it and congratulates the Eagles on its success. Of course at the time the Eagles toured with them, Felder was still an unknown bobbing in and out of session work with the likes of David Blue...

thelastresort
12-24-2014, 05:20 PM
WUTK is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sJA_VF5c7U

I kind of here Hotel Cali in there, but not to the point where you'd call it a rip-off. The progression of the verse sounds like the intro to HC in a structural rather than musical sense, but that's really as close as you get. Of course, it wasn't until 4 years later that Felder penned the song, and unless he listened to them actively I doubt he'd remember exactly where he heard something similar (all the coke and booze wouldn't have helped either) if he did recognise it: HOTE states however that Felder would come up with 20 or 30 progressions at a time, so it is more likely just a 'progression' of progressions that led him to it.

sodascouts
12-24-2014, 05:31 PM
Yeah, I give Felder the benefit of the doubt there. I don't think it's similar enough to be called a "rip off."

Freypower
12-24-2014, 05:41 PM
I thought I'd read here that Felder wrote the part of Hotel California that was stolen from Jethro Tull, a band the Eagles did support in the early seventies but I've gone back a few pages and read some interesting stuff. Particularly about Paul Simon.

Way back in the sixties, English folk singer, Martin Carthy got a surprise when, Paul Simon, I guy he'd regularly shared a stage with, in Folk clubs in England, recorded his version of Scarborough Fair. Simon didn't and doesn't acknowledge the, what some may call, theft.

Royalty-wise. I'm reminded of Men At Work's worldwide hit, Down Under. After going through court, the publishers are now required to pay a royalty to the estate of a dead musician, who composed the melody for the flute solo, even though the flute player didn't get a royalty for his contribution to the song. It's just blatant opportunistic legal profiteering.

Ian Anderson has mentioned the Hotel California rip-off, sorry I'm unfamiliar with which Tull song it is, but he's declined to sue so far. His estate may have different ideas when he dies.

I wonder if Glenn and Don could counter-sue Felder for offering them somebody else's tune porting to be original material. I suppose they'd have heard the Jethro Tull track too.

Actually, I think Glenn has gone on record as saying that all the time they supported Jethro Tull, they never saw Ian Anderson.

Cunning hey? :razz:

The publishers of a well known Australian song called Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree claimed the flute melody was stolen from that song. They won the case. The man who plays the flute part, Greg Ham, committed suicide as a result. It was absolutely tragic.

Funk 50
12-25-2014, 03:03 PM
The publishers of a well known Australian song called Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree claimed the flute melody was stolen from that song. They won the case. The man who plays the flute part, Greg Ham, committed suicide as a result. It was absolutely tragic.

A very sorry end to the tail Freypower. Just displays how a humble artist can be eaten alive by the business.

Ive always been a dreamer
12-26-2014, 02:21 PM
Yeah - I would venture to guess that the reason Jethro Tull/Ian Anderson never brought a lawsuit claiming the Hotel California rip-off of We Used to Know is because it would be baseless. Even Ian Anderson says as much in his comments here ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xny0Uj4--tk

chaim
12-28-2014, 06:22 AM
I'm a Tull/Ian Anderson fan, but I'm not a fan of Ian's Hotel California thing. Ian always says that it's ok, and that Hotel California is a better song, and that the song is totally different etc. etc. But it's always Ian himself who brings it up. He mentions it in interviews and concerts. So obviously he very much wants the world to know that there's a similarity.

This Charlie Daniels Band song is much more similar to We Used To Know, but either Ian doesn't know the song, or it's nicer to talk about HC simply because it's such a classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooTmF4Ow1mE
Ian keeps telling audiences how Eagles must have remembered We Used To Know from the days they toured together. Someone should tell him that the person who "came up with" the chords, was not in the band at that point.

Also, like I've said before, there's an Alice Cooper track from 1971 with pretty much the same chords. The "you never thought you'd be alone" bit in Wasted Time has pretty much the same chord progression. There must be tons of other songs. For those who don't play an instrument, I will show how similar the chords look. To make it clearer I'll put them in the same key.

Hotel California:
Am, E, G, D, F, C, Dm, E

We Used To Know
Am, E, G, D, F, C, B, E

The Charlie Daniel's Band song:
Am, E, G, D, F, C, B, E

The Alice Cooper song (Second Coming):
Am, E, G, D, F, C, E

The bit in Wasted Time (I'm ignoring the descending "bassline"):
Am, E, G, D, F, Em, Dm......It sounds different in Wasted Time, of course, because this drifts slightly away from main key of the song.

It's not the chord progression that is unique and great in HC, it's what Don F did with it. Ian seems to know this better than Don, although he keeps bringing up the similarity in chords.

Slightly off-topic, but that "unusual chromatic line" in the verses that Don mentions in his book is what the chords suggest, and you hear it in Wasted Time too, played by Glenn's left hand. It's common. Also, the movement from verse to chorus in HC is the most logical one you could make chordwise at that point, although in the book Don implies that it's a weird movement.:headscratch: It's called an "interrupted" or "deceptive" cadence - one of the most common features in tonal music (had to Google the English term!).

Overall I think that people in rock/pop music - or their lawyers! - tend to think that their stuff is more unique than it actually is. Then there are/were people like Freddie Mercury who did do different things (for a pop/rock group) now and then, but didn't talk about it like it was special.

So, to get back where I started, I find it a bit weird how Ian Anderson keeps saying that Eagles must have been influenced by his song and then always adds that it's a totally different song and it's a nonissue.

VAisForEagleLovers
12-28-2014, 07:50 PM
Thank you for all the info, Chaim! It makes sense to see it written like that.

chaim
12-29-2014, 05:48 AM
No problem. I'm not a big fan of Don describing the writing of HC in his book. Stuff like "I played with the chords, teased them, took them where they didn't want to go" is romanticising it a bit! Other people had been there before. In his 12-string part Don emphasizes the "chromatic descent" that can be "found" within the chord progression (like Glenn does in the "You never thought you'd be alone..." bit with his left hand), but there's nothing that unusual there IMO.

Of course, the fourth chord in Don's 12-string part is not just a basic triad, but it's essentially just that - just more notes on top. And Glenn plays it as a triad, and the bass plays the root of the triad.

Anyway, Sebastian is the guy who's more capable of discussing stuff like this, but I'll do my best.:hilarious:
Incidentally, unless I'm very much mistaken, Ian once said that it was Martin Barre - the Jethro Tull guitarist - who pointed this out to Ian. So if I remember correctly, Ian didn't even notice the similarity just by hearing HC!

Ive always been a dreamer
12-29-2014, 10:57 PM
Thanks from me too, chaim. That really puts it in perspective. And I agree with everything you said about Ian Anderson. For the Hotel California rip-off thing not to be any big deal, he sure does have a way of making a big deal out of it.

Jonny Come Lately
12-30-2014, 08:30 AM
I agree about Ian Anderson's comments - in any case, as others have pointed out, there was no way that Don Felder could have been inspired by Jethro Tull playing the song when the Eagles were supporting them given that he wasn't actually in the band yet, and there's little dispute that the introduction was originated by Felder alone without any input from the other four band members.

I am glad to hear that Ian Anderson acknowledges the quality of Hotel California (by all accounts he usually comes across as a pretty decent guy) - I've read comments before saying that HC was just a Jethro Tull rip-off. This ignores the brilliant and very creative lyrics which bear no resemblance to the Tull song. We Used To Know is a good song, but HC is a total classic and one of the defining songs of classic rock. Of course, this is a good reason for Anderson to mention it as being inspired by his band's music.

Thanks for posting those chord sequences chaim, I had no idea that the first five chords of the section of Wasted Time (a Henley/Frey composition) were quite so similar to the famous HC intro, although fortunately it certainly doesn't sound like self-plagiarism in any case.

sodascouts
01-05-2015, 01:27 AM
Ian keeps telling audiences how Eagles must have remembered We Used To Know from the days they toured together. Someone should tell him that the person who "came up with" the chords, was not in the band at that point.

lol! Point well made!

I love reading your informative posts. I learn a lot from them!

UndertheWire
02-17-2015, 02:04 PM
This copyright document came up in a random search. It's someone claiming he and his friend came up with the "two-part harmonised guitar solo" (I still don't see how you can have a two-part solo). I can't help wondering if it was a spoof application.
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/section115/comments-3/reply/RM_2000-7_Reply_SJ_Michelsen.pdf

chaim
02-17-2015, 03:30 PM
"The reputation of the Eagles is at stake" because a few bars of a guitar solo?:hilarious:

And I don't see how the HC chord progression is made of "dominant and subdominant substitutions and alteration of a blues progression". If the bit in the solo he refers to has exactly the same notes for several bars, then it has to be the same chords too.

Anyway, fake, I'd say.

sodascouts
02-17-2015, 06:55 PM
Sounds like a crackpot to me.

WalshFan88
02-17-2015, 08:10 PM
Sounds about like Jethro Tull taking credit for the intro and progression of HC. I blow it off as nothing worth my time.

Ive always been a dreamer
02-17-2015, 09:54 PM
Ditto, Austin.

thelastresort
02-17-2015, 10:07 PM
However, Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull itself has said he sees no copying at all of their song, so I'm not sure who would bring such proceedings? Management?

Ive always been a dreamer
02-17-2015, 10:28 PM
tlr - Jethro Tull and/or Ian Anderson never pursued any legal action because by his own admission, it would have been virtually baseless. Speaking for myself, this reminded me of it because it sounds like this claim may be equally as baseless.

Geminitiger
11-13-2015, 01:14 PM
Listening to Keith Richards playing the intro to Angie has a very strong flavour of the intro to HC.

sodascouts
11-14-2015, 02:38 PM
I never noticed that. Welcome, Geminitiger.

chaim
11-14-2015, 03:28 PM
And this one is pretty close too (came out in 1974): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2L0XN4I1hw

It also has that descending chromatic line within the chord progression that Don F thinks is so unique in Hotel California. The chromatic line isn't actually played in Let It Grow, but it's there - you could easily play it on top of the chords. It's the same b, a sharp, a natural, g sharp, g natural. Hotel California continues one half step further to f sharp (D major chord), but so what.

Freypower
11-14-2015, 04:45 PM
Regarding Angie, not that it matters, but it's older than HC. The Goats Head Soup album was released in 1974. The intro to that song gives me chills. As for Let It Grow, if that is what that chord progression is, wow. I love that song too.

chaim
11-15-2015, 04:52 AM
Let It Grow doesn't have the same chord progression, but you could do the same (Don called it "unusual", "weird" or something) descending chromatic voice leading with it. In HC two electric guitars play the descending harmony line in the verses. One of them descends one half step at a time, chromatically. The other guitar, of course, can't do that, as the chord progression doesn't allow it. So it has to sometimes stay on the same note and sometimes descend a whole step.

Here are the chord progressions. The descending chromatic "melody" line is in brackets. In HC it's actually played. In LIT it's not played, but the chord progression - although not exactly the same - contains that possibility:

Bm (b), F# (a#), A (a), E (g#), G (g), D (f#), Em, F# (Hotel California)
Bm (b), F# (a#), D (a), E (g#), G (g), A (Let It Grow)

I have to say that for me the songs do have the same vibe. I think it reminded me of HC when I heard LIG for the first time. Maybe it's the 12-string guitar. I think there's one on LIT as well.

UndertheWire
01-06-2016, 01:50 PM
I found a comment from Irving Azoff from 2005 which I assume is the official Eagles/Henley postion on the song. It's close to what Henley said in the documentary, so doesn't add anything new other than to show he';s held that view for some time.

The fact is that Mr. Henley prefers to work with "rough tracks" — that is, tracks that are in an unfinished state. Often, they are just chord progressions with a beat. An example would be "Hotel California," which, when Mr. Felder gave it to Mr. Henley, was a basic chord progression set to a simple drum machine beat. There were no yrics; there was no melody, no guitar solos and no serviceable arrangement.
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2005/05/13/the-heart-of-the-matter/

Brooke
01-06-2016, 02:14 PM
If that doesn't spell it out clearly, I don't know what would!

Thanks UtW!

Topkat
01-08-2016, 04:43 PM
Oh gosh, are we rehashing this up again for the millionth time.??? Was Irving there? Don't think so. It is what it is.

Ive always been a dreamer
01-08-2016, 06:29 PM
Thanks for posting that, UTW. I don't remember if that was ever posted before or not, but we appreciate when our members find both old and new stuff to post. So TK, I understand if you aren't interested in rehashing the subject, but please don't speak for all our members here. And I don't think any of us knows if Irving was there or not. Since the song was written over the course of many months, I'm sure he wasn't there all the time. However, as the band's manager, I presume he had a front row seat and certainly felt familiar enough with what happened to speak about it. As UTW said, Irving's comments are consistent with what Henley and Frey have said about the writing of the song over the years.

chaim
01-09-2016, 05:57 AM
I'm sort of in the middle. I think Topkat has a point there too. Managers don't always remember (or even know) things correctly. It's possible that "Irv" believes what he said, but his mind has created a new "memory" over the years, especially since this "battle" started. But it's also possible that he remembers exactly how it went down - Don F's original tape without vocal melodies etc. So, while "Irv's" comment certainly gives food for thought, personally I still think that either "side" could be correct. Personally I think that Don F's demo was more complete than what "Irv" says there (I believe that a lot of the arrangement was already there), while Don F has exaggerated the completeness of his initial idea (like the solos at the end and vocal melodies).

UndertheWire
01-09-2016, 09:34 AM
I have no doubt that Azoff is giving the official line which corresponds to Henley's version. My guess is he would represent Henley's interests before anyone else's and in this case, he was writing explicitly about Henley's writing process. Irving probably wasn't there for any of the song-writing sessions for HC but he may well have heard Felder's tape so his comments can't be dismissed on that basis.

Put it this way, we've heard about the creation of Hotel California from Don Felder, Don Henley, Glenn Frey, Joe Walsh and Bill Szymszyk. This is just another view.

As for rehashing old topics, I don't see the harm in posting what appears to be additional information on a subject. If you don't want to revisit it, there's no need to open the thread.

WalshFan88
01-09-2016, 06:26 PM
Don Felder has said many times he had solos on the demo tape that Henley made him copy note for note from the demo tape. I'm inclined to believe him... So I doubt it was just a raw chord progression.