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Victim of Love
12-14-2012, 02:09 PM
I'm watching live coverage on CNN of this horrible, sickening tragedy. The school in question includes grades K-4 and reports are that as many as 20 are dead (although the number is unconfirmed at this point and changes by the minute). My heart aches for the innocent victims and their families. This is an unspeakable tragedy that defies explanation. Thoughts and prayers to anyone and everyone who may be impacted. I pray that none of our wonderful members here on The Border are directly touched by this and will continue to send my thoughts and prayers across the miles.

zeldabjr
12-14-2012, 03:23 PM
I am speechless...why?

Grey Sadler
12-14-2012, 04:01 PM
This makes me absolutely sick.
You don't mess with children. Especially the little guys.

OTOH, my local newspaper website already has comments regarding teachers being allowed to carry concealed weapons. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about that...especially what could happen in view of small children.

:worried:

Brooke
12-14-2012, 05:05 PM
I've been trying to keep up with this too. It's just horrible and senseless! Little kids! Why?

I'm also sending thoughts and prayers to everyone connected out there.

Troubadour
12-14-2012, 05:20 PM
This is just so devastating. Children and teachers... I can't even imagine the fear and horror at that school. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone involved. Words seem paltry right now. :-(

sodascouts
12-14-2012, 06:39 PM
Oh my gosh. Just saw this. Horrific!!!!

TimothyBFan
12-14-2012, 07:37 PM
Just don't even know what to say.

Tiffanny Twisted
12-14-2012, 07:37 PM
speechless these children were babies. Why??

Henley Honey
12-14-2012, 09:21 PM
If this Country can't get gun control reform passed this will continue to happen. Semi-automatic weapons should be STRICTLY controlled. It's insanity. Prayers for those twenty young souls and for their parents.

WalshFan88
12-15-2012, 05:29 AM
So very very sad. RIP to all of them and prayers/thoughts sent to their families and school workers.

Topkat
12-15-2012, 11:10 AM
If this Country can't get gun control reform passed this will continue to happen. Semi-automatic weapons should be STRICTLY controlled. It's insanity. Prayers for those twenty young souls and for their parents.

This continues to happen. Nothing is done because the NRA has Congress by the balls! Not even a ban on military assault weapons! Crazy people legally buy them every day! It's all about MONEY...They don't give a crap who dies. TRAGIC.
Praying for those families who lost innocent babies 5 years old at school. When is America going to wake up & change??

Glennhoney
12-15-2012, 11:44 AM
This continues to happen. Nothing is done because the NRA has Congress by the balls! Not even a ban on military assault weapons! Crazy people legally buy them every day! It's all about MONEY...They don't give a crap who dies. TRAGIC.
Praying for those families who lost innocent babies 5 years old at school. When is America going to wake up & change??


:-(..so true...so sad..

Ive always been a dreamer
12-15-2012, 04:04 PM
OMG - this is another horrible massacre that, unfortunately, seems to be becoming all too familiar in this country. It is sickening to think of the loss of these innocent teachers and children and wounds that will take years for this community to heal from.


If this Country can't get gun control reform passed this will continue to happen. Semi-automatic weapons should be STRICTLY controlled. It's insanity. Prayers for those twenty young souls and for their parents.

I totally agree, HH. Hopefully, we Americans have finally reached a point where we will demand action from our leaders. I believe that we also need to address the issues of violence and mental illness in our society if we hope to really to stop these senseless acts.

My heart is broken for the victims in this tragedy and the entire shattered community of Newtown.

Henley Honey
12-15-2012, 04:41 PM
I think members of Congress should be required to view the crime scene photos from this horrific event as well as those from the movie theater massacre, Gabby Gifford's shooting, and any of the other recent horrific mass murders. It sounds gruesome and macabre but may have enough impact to finally have Members act.

It's harder to get your driver's license in the US than it is to get a gun. Insanity.

Freypower
12-15-2012, 05:54 PM
But some of these gun fanatics think the solution is MORE guns, not fewer:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/15/newtown-school-shootings-gun-control

But not all gun lobbyists have kept silent. Some have argued that America actually needs more guns to make people safe as mass shooters will be killed by armed citizens who can immediately act when a spree begins. Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America, said that, if there had been armed teachers in the school in Newtown, the tragedy might have been reduced. "Gun control supporters have the blood of little children on their hands. Federal and state laws combined to ensure that no teacher, no administrator, no adult had a gun at the Newtown school where the children were murdered," Pratt said in a statement.
He asked for gun laws to be loosened further. "This tragedy underscores the urgency of getting rid of gun bans in school zones. The only thing accomplished by gun-free zones is to ensure that mass murderers can slay more before they are finally confronted by someone with a gun," he added.
Gun lobbyists also point out that the guns used in Newtown were not owned by the suspected killer and had been legally bought and owned by his mother.

I find that line I highlighted despicable. To me it beggars belief that you can prevent these massacres by arming even more people. It hasn't happened. When has a mass murderer been stopped by someone with a gun? And why should it even GET to that stage? And I am sorry, but if you want teachers in an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL to be armed, you should look at yourself very, very hard.

It is not for me to lecture Americans on gun control. However, it stuns me that the country has to go through this so often & nothing is ever done. Meanwhile it is a dreadful tragedy for the victims & their families.

Victim of Love
12-15-2012, 08:04 PM
I've watched substantial coverage over these past two days (when my kids haven't been around) and I got physically ill earlier today when they announced that none of the children were older than six and all of the victims had multiple gunshot wounds. This is all so tragic and senseless and as one reporter pointed out, the surviving children from that school have had their youth and innocence snatched from them.

But what really made my blood boil was when I went over to pick up my kids from their school yesterday afternoon and I overheard two young fathers talking about this. The first one said "As far as I'm concerned we should ALL carry a weapon" to which the other one replied, "He--, if I found myself in a situation like that I wouldn't hesitate for a heartbeat to open fire." I turned and looked at both of them and asked, "Is that really the kind of environment you want your children growing up in? And would you really want your children to live -- or possibly die -- because of such blind stupidity? These aren't whitetail deer or elk or buffalo on the other side of those doors, it's our CHILDREN." And what frightens me the most is that this is a largely rural community where the primary activity this time of year is hunting...so it could easily happen in one of our schools.

I'm a strong advocate for gun control but I'm smart enough to know that not everyone agrees and that even with the most stringent laws it's impossible to completely get it in check. The debate over gun control will continue. We can only hope that this heartbreaking tragedy will open more eyes to the need for changes.

Topkat
12-16-2012, 12:21 PM
I watched a lot of the coverage yesterday & it was so tragic, but people who think that having armed teachers at school is the answer are just totally out of their minds. An attack like this comes on so fast & with the use of an assault weapon that it would be impossible to stop even with an armed teacher.
Are teachers supposed to carry AK 47's at school? I can't imagine how dangerous that could be. Also most of these gunman wear bullet proof protection.

This gunman used weapons his mother had at the house & apparently she would take her son out to the gun range for practice. They claim she was a survivalist & had these guns for protection, but too bad her son used these guns to first kill her by shooting right in the face & then going off to do more killings at an Elementary school.

Why does anyone need a military assault weapon for protection? These guns need to be banned from sale to the public..There is no need for them. They aren't hunting weapons or needed for any other excuse the NRA wants to come up with??? Yes, it is harder to get a driver's licence than it is to buy an assault weapon. This needs to stop & NOW!
The Colorado shooter ordered thousands of rounds of ammunition over the internet with NO restrictions!!! An OUTRAGE!

When I saw the faces of some of those 6 year olds that were brutally murdered, it made me cry. Some of the accounts of the children who escaped witnessed the murder of their classmates. It was horrific
The teachers who had saved many of the children are heroes. That one teacher who was only 27 was killed & her class was saved because she told the killer the kids were in the library, when they were really in a closet right there. They lived, but watched their young teacher die! How are these children going to be affected by something like that???

I'm heartbroken over this...Our President & Congress must act NOW, not a minute later!!

zeldabjr
12-16-2012, 03:40 PM
I totally agree with every word you said TK!

Ive always been a dreamer
12-16-2012, 10:07 PM
I just finished watch the prayer vigil in Newtown and thought President Obama's remarks tonight to the victim's families were very moving. It was encouraging to hear him tell them "We can't accept acts such as this as routine." I sincerely hope he keeps his word and uses all of his powers to push through some meaningful gun control and mental illness legislation. Unfortunately, these things don't happen quickly in our system, but most of us would probably agree, the sooner we begin, the better.

zeldabjr
12-16-2012, 10:19 PM
I just finished watch the prayer vigil in Newtown and thought President Obama's remarks tonight to the victim's families were very moving. It was encouraging to hear him tell them "We can't accept acts such as this as routine." I sincerely hope he keeps his word and uses all of his powers to push through some meaningful gun control and mental illness legislation. Unfortunately, these things don't happen quickly in our system, but most of us would probably agree, the sooner we begin, the better.

I saw the President's remarks too...and agree with you on everything you said...We are failing young people in this country and something needs to be done...the appetite for guns and violence as entertainment in this country has got to change...

UK TimFan
12-17-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the possible effect that things such as TV and computer/video games have on children as they're growing up.
Way back when I was young the most violent thing I saw on TV was 'The Lone Ranger'. And there was no such thing as the internet and video games.

When my son was young 'He-man and the masters of the universe' was just becoming popular. Skeletor gave me the creeps so I refused to let my son watch it. Though it seemed every other 4-year old at his nursery watched it. (So I did eventually relent, though very reluctantly.)

Censorship at the cinema has been relaxed to such an extent that 12 year-olds can see stuff which 40, possibly less, years ago would have been rated 18 years. Plus films are now on TV 24/7. Back then you only saw a film on TV at Christmas and Easter.

Nowadays there's all the video games, some of which seem to consists of continual shooting of people. What sort of message does that send out, for goodness' sake? And even if those kind are labelled 18, you can bet that children much younger than that are playing them.

People in the UK are saying that gun control is not the answer because since gun possession here came under quite severe restrictions gun crime has actually increased, though I have no statistics to prove or disprove this. . The new laws were brought in following a massacre at a school in Dunblane (Scotland) in 1996. The gunman, Thomas Hamilton, had four handguns, which he was licensed to hold.
However much you regulate gun control there will always be the madman who somehow manages to get arms and ammunition and kill indiscriminately. Though there's nothing to stop the government making it harder for them.

TimothyBFan
12-17-2012, 09:19 AM
People in the UK are saying that gun control is not the answer because since gun possession here came under quite severe restrictions gun crime has actually increased, though I have no statistics to prove or disprove this. . The new laws were brought in following a massacre at a school in Dunblane (Scotland) in 1996. The gunman, Thomas Hamilton, had four handguns, which he was licensed to hold.
However much you regulate gun control there will always be the madman who somehow manages to get arms and ammunition and kill indiscriminately. Though there's nothing to stop the government making it harder for them.

A friend and I were just talking about this yesterday. So true. I'm on the fence about either way. I truly believe that if a madman or anyone hell bent on getting a gun and using it really wants one, he'll get one. The local news here a few years ago ran a story about how easy it is to get them. Showed several incidents where an undercover cop was able to make a call and walk up to a car and buy right out of the trunk. I just don't know what will actually work.

Any of my friends on FB might have seen this yesterday but I think it needs to be seen by more. Several years ago, a friend of ours, Chris, had a brother who had had mental issues for years. One night he held himself up in a run down motel and started threatening people and shooting off a balcony. The police were called and he shot and killed an officer and then was shot by another officer and died. Chris was beside himself. His parents were a mess and it took Chris years to get past it and lost his marriage because of it. I was watching his 8 year old son at the time and I remember how this whole family suffered horribly. He had seen his brother the day before and tried to get him help once again but to no avail. He felt somewhat responsible because he didn't force him to get help once again. His brother had been in and out of mental hospitals, etc... and always ended up on the street, on drugs, etc... once again. This is what Chris put on his FB yesterday. He's lived it as a family member of a killer. Here's his take on living with that for the rest of his life and gun control.


IS A GUN OWNER IN FAVOR OF STRICTER GUN LAWS: As someone who has personally experienced the tragedy of having someone put a gun in the hands of a mentally unstable individual everytime something like this happens I get to relive it all over. Five years ago my brother a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic was illeagly sold two .22 caliber pistols that resulted in his death and the death of South Bend Police officer Nick Polizitto. The indiviuals who had sold him the weapons broke the law by not waiting the three days required by law for sufficient background checks. Had they waited and done the background checks he would have obtained the guns anyway.
This occured 2 months after the shootings at Virgina Tech. In the wake of these events I had met with the mayor and chief of police of South Bend along with the president of Madison Center. Trying to make some sort of postive come out of this situation and also to understand how a person who had a history of mental illness and was collecting Social Seceruity as a result of that illness could obtain a firearm. I was informed under current law and the right to privacy mental health records cannot be accessed. Without a felony record he wuld have obtained the guns regardless.
The two individuals that had sold Scott the guns were subsequently prosecuted. Both these idividuals broke the law since he had walked into a gun show and walked out with two guns. Two days later there were two people dead as a result. Both men were sentanced to two years in prison. Less time than Michael Vick had recieved for dog fighting. Go figure. One idividual was beat to death in prison which then brought the death count up to three. Now had they followed the law would this have been prevented no one will ever know but but three lives lost for what was probably $50 worth of profit makes me ill.
So my heart goes out especially to all the families of the victims involved in this tragedy and also to the family of the shooter. That may sound odd to some but Ive seen the ravaging effects and hopeless despair of what mental illness can not only do to an individual but also to a family. I know my mother and father loved thier son as I loved my brother.
As I see all the right to bear arms posts and advocating CCW permits from people that I know are responsible gun owners I do not disagree. But those individuals may need to ask themselves would it be so bad to extend the waiting period to get that new AR15 semi automatic that really has no purpose other than they are fun to shoot. Could you possibly wait on it for a month if it meant it would save the life of someone by possibly keeping it out of the hands of someone that didnt need to have it. Would you be willing to allow the government to access all of you personal health records. If you have nothing to hide you can still own whatever gun you choose. Think about it.

Topkat
12-17-2012, 12:04 PM
People who fight Gun Control really get me ILL.
WHY make it EASY for a MENTALLY ILL person to just walk in ANY PLACE & BUY a HIGH POWERED ASSAULT WEAPON????

WHY does ANYONE NEED this kind of weapon? It was made for the MILITARY to use in WARS not for protection or for hunting????
These guns need to be BANNED & taken OUT of GUN shows, gun shops & wherever else people get their hands on them....In fact they need to BAN the MANUFACTURE of them!!!!

After watching the story of the gunman, it was revealed that HIS MOTHER was a gun collector, a Survivalist? or whatever they call themselves....SHE HAS A MENTALLY DISTURBED CHILD LIVING WITH HER!! She took him to the firing range & taught him & had him target practice....WHY???? This woman had legal assault weapons in her home with a mentally ill child....WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???? EVERYTHING!!!

I do hold this mother responsible for this!!! She probably thought her mentally ill child wasn't violent....Well, she was DEAD WRONG about that one. Her neighbors said she was a loving & caring parent who did everything to help her son. She knew he was mentally ill, & yet she brought high powered weapons into her home...
The only way to stop this is to get these guns off our streets!!

Then, yes we have to deal better with mental illness, but that is not the immediate answer! A mentally ill person without a weapon, is at most going to take a knife out & try to kill maybe one person...NOT SHOOT DOWN as many as possible! This needs to END NOW, & our PRESIDENT better start standing up to the NRA...Our Congress needs to stop being COWARDS & vote for new laws...How much more of this can our country take???

EagleLady
12-17-2012, 12:15 PM
I dont believe in slandering the deceased mother but I agree with you on Banning Those guns.

Brooke
12-17-2012, 03:06 PM
It seems this kind of thing happens more and more in this country, but I don't hear about much of it from other countries. Are your gun laws much different?

I agree there is no reason that I can think of for these assault rifles to be sold to just anyone. They should only be available to our military. But is this what he used? It says he used two hand guns also. I really don't know what the answer is, but I hope they figure out something before this happens again.

Freypower
12-17-2012, 05:48 PM
In Australia our gun laws were tightened after the Port Arthur massacre of 1996 in which 35 people were killed by one man in a single day. Nothing like that has happened since. Every other country as far as I am aware has reasonably tight & controlled gun laws.

Glennsallnighter
12-17-2012, 08:00 PM
I have followed this tragedy over the weekend and also read the comments posted. What an awful terrible tragedy to happen to a local community. I'm sure life will never be the same again for them. I sincerely hope it will be the last of such awful happenings, not just in the USA but everywhere. While we have not experienced anything like this here, I would not be complacement. Most schools here in an effort to be 'parent friendly' have virtually NO security systems in place (Call a buzzer where they buzz you in regardless of who you are 'security'? -or 4 doors which are generally left open by students enetering or exiting the building?) ANYBODY could get in, and worse could happen. And we have students with mental issues too. As well as those who have (illegal) access to firearms too.

The powers that be EVERYWHERE need to develop a coherent policy on school and college security and put into effect a master 'Critical Incident Plan' so that something like this never happens again.

May all those angels Rest In Peace

Victim of Love
12-17-2012, 10:24 PM
I was out running errands Saturday and had my iPod playing thru the car stereo when one particular song came on that I'd forgotten about. I had to pull over because I was crying so hard I couldn't see to drive. (No film footage or dramatic pictures here, just some truly beautiful lyrics courtesy of Timothy B and Bruce Gaitsch)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaH_O_IbkAk

Grey Sadler
12-17-2012, 10:53 PM
VOL...that was sad and sweet at the same time :)

Victim of Love
12-17-2012, 11:03 PM
Thanks, HC. It's one of my favorite Timothy solo songs for that very reason and I really hit me the other day just how true those words are. My generation and those before me grew up in such a trusting time and the innocence of children was seldom threatened or compromised. I have kids the same age as those killed in Newtown, CT so those lyrics express what millions of people across the country are surely feeling.

Topkat
12-17-2012, 11:33 PM
It seems this kind of thing happens more and more in this country, but I don't hear about much of it from other countries. Are your gun laws much different?

I agree there is no reason that I can think of for these assault rifles to be sold to just anyone. They should only be available to our military. But is this what he used? It says he used two hand guns also. I really don't know what the answer is, but I hope they figure out something before this happens again.

The weapon used was a military assault Bushmaster AR-15 rifle. I'm not sure of the magazine capacity but probably high number of rounds per minute.
He also had with him 2 handguns, one he used to kill himself when the cops came, and another shotgun. They said he had enough fire power to murder every child in that school, which they believe was his intent until he was interrupted by the quick response of the police. All these guns were legally purchased by his mother & in her name.

This school had a very advanced security system in place, as well as a plan for if the school is under attack. Most schools in the tri-state area now have a plan in place & taught to the teachers & practiced. The school was totally locked up at the time. He entered by shooting out a window & came in that way.

Topkat
12-17-2012, 11:42 PM
Here is a story of how one man helped some children that escaped the gunman & landed in front of his home,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/neighbor-helped-sandy-hook-students_n_2317775.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D247018

Tiffanny Twisted
12-18-2012, 07:27 PM
Ok did anybody see the 26 acts story on msn by anne curry
you should do 26 acts of kindness one for each soul lost in conn.
I kinda like that idea ...what do you guys think??

Topkat
12-18-2012, 09:00 PM
TT, I didn't see that but it does sound like a nice idea.
Last night The Voice paid a beautiful tribute to the victims. Please watch..Very moving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IO64urOFNaY

Tiffanny Twisted
12-19-2012, 08:01 PM
I've been trying to do it.
i went out and bought little santa ornaments with peoples names on it I work with and wrapped in candy celephane bags and stuffed in the stockings (small ones) I have up at work for all the coworkers .
I even found the childrens name of a difficult oworker and put them in her locker from "secret santa".
She came up to me later with a smile on her face and she said Thanks I know it has to be you.
So, its hard to do but I am trying to do the right thing.
One coworker wound up with a patient whoasked her to wait while he used the restroom and walk him back cause he thought he would get lost.
She smiled when I reminded her she did her one good thing towards her 26 and smiled when I told her.
I LOVE THE IDEA

Houston Baby
05-16-2013, 08:08 PM
I have been meaning to post this since I thought it so touching. Last month on NBC news, they interviewed some of the families touched by the Newton CT shootings in December. They asked Bill Sherlach, whose wife Mary was killed during the shootings, how he was getting use to life after. He said it seemed surreal, flying down to Washington DC on Air Force One, sitting by the window and all he could think about was how he would rather be home with Mary in the kitchen, cooking dinner & dancing to the Eagles. It broke my heart. I hope these families are starting to heal. It will take a long time.