Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[DJ]

To be honest, I really don't think it is that important which song it was. The basic facts are right apart from that.


Agreed FP the basic facts are there so that's all that matters it happened and it was a long time ago, so stories get hazy and time moves on.

[UndertheWire]

Anyone have any idea of the dates (even just year) for the "Malibu Men's Choir" and the earlier attempt to form a band with Joe and Timothy?

At allmusic.com, I can see playing credits for Don from 1981 to 1985 on other people's records, but what did he do from 1986 to 1993 in terms of music?

[Freypower]

Anyone have any idea of the dates (even just year) for the "Malibu Men's Choir" and the earlier attempt to form a band with Joe and Timothy?

At allmusic.com, I can see playing credits for Don from 1981 to 1985 on other people's records, but what did he do from 1986 to 1993 in terms of music?

Re Malibu Men's Choir see page 233 of Heaven & Hell. It must have been during the period to which you refer, but no year is given.

There is no other mention in the book of Felder doing any other music at all during these years.

[sodascouts]

Based on its position in the book, which is before the 1990 abortive attempt at an Eagles reunion, I'd speculate it occurred between 1987 (after Timothy released Timothy B) and 1989.

[UndertheWire]

Thanks FP and Soda. I was hoping there was something in Timothy's history that might help narrow it down.

[SilverMoon]

Here’s an interview with Eagles producer Bill Szymczyk. It was posted by UndertheWire in the Eagles Mentions in the Press thread on September 27, but I think it should be posted in this thread too. In the interview, Szymczyk talks about Heaven and Hell. He confirms that the stories in the book about the Eagles are true.

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/show_interview.php?id=916

Jeb: I met Don Felder and interviewed him for the jumbo-tron at the festival The Moondance Jam and I said, “I used to be a huge Eagles fan.” He said, “Me too.” He tells it all in his book.

Bill: Other people that have read his book, which was pretty true, concerning the stories and the animosities – he did not exaggerate all that much. People would read that book and tell me, “You’re the only one in that book that doesn’t come off like a shit head.”

In History of the Eagles, Don Henley and Glenn Frey lay the blame for the tensions and conflicts in the band on Don Felder. But Szymczyk reveals in this interview that the Eagles didn’t get along during the making of LROOE. Of course, they don’t mention that in the documentary because they don’t want to admit they still don’t really get along and still fight even though Don Felder isn’t in the band anymore. Here’s the part of the interview in which Szymczyk talks about the making of LROOE:

Jeb: When you went back and produced Long Road Out of Eden, was all of the bullshit better than they had left it with The Long Run?

Bill: It was initially, when they first called me. I went out in 2001 and the album seemed to have a little more of the ‘all for one, one for all’ attitude to it. But, once again, after working on it for two years, and stacking up tracks, there were only one or two finished songs. It was another case of tracking sixteen to eighteen tracks and, over the course of those two years they got back to hating each other again.

The date of the interview is not given, but I think it is from 2012. A shorter version of the same interview was published on another website on October 3, 2012.

http://www.goldminemag.com/article/producer-bill-szymczyk-is-in-it-for-the-long-run

[thelastresort]

One thing that really, really annoyed me (if it's true) is if Felder rang up Joe and TBS when he was fired and they both told him he had only himself to blame and he should have signed the papers then that is a disgraceful way to treat a former colleague. TBS is so nice usually and Felder I believe was one of the ones who drove Joe to rehab back in the 90s. The lack of reciprocity in that Felder helped Joe at his lowest yet Joe negated to return that to his 'friend' is so bitterly disappointing.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I agree with you, TLR, which is why I feel it points to just how much damage Felder did that he didn't put in his book. Glenn and Don had gotten to the point where it was fire Felder or once again put an end to the Eagles. Joe and Timothy were likely a little more objective and probably realized the impact it would be, not having Felder on board. They realized the scrutiny they would all undergo from media and fans alike, to once again have their motives questioned, etc. To know it could have all been avoided had to make them a little bitter. Personally, in the entire situation, I don't see where Felder respected their wishes, so I wonder why they owed anything to him at the end? He said he was fighting for their rights as well, but they obviously didn't agree with that.

You know, when you have a splinter under your fingernail that keeps getting more and more irritating, to the point where the entire finger is jeopardized, a person has to make the decision to either remove the splinter or eventually cut off the entire finger. Right or wrong, Glenn and Don felt that was the decision they had to make. Timothy and Joe were close enough to know what all had happened and for reasons we can only speculate about, they didn't stand with Felder. He may have felt betrayed, but we haven't heard any details from the other four sides of the story. All I can say, is when four stand together and one is on the outside, I have to consider that maybe the story behind the four is the most accurate, even if I don't know what that story is. I just know the story I've heard from the one on the outside is not the full truth.

As for LROOE, it pains me to say this, because I absolutely love Don. But we heard about his new solo album in 2009 and it's now the fall of 2014. Where is it? He wants to give his fans the best he can give, but he seems to be blinded by the fact they'd rather have something that's only 99.9999% perfect than nothing at all. Things like this would have driven the others completely crazy during LROOE. As much as I love Glenn to pieces, I don't really think he's the easiest person to work with. He knows where to lead the band, and even if he's 100% correct, I'm betting his methods are less than subtle. And Joe...I bet he has a rough time hiding his impatience, and he can be completely quiet and you still know what he's thinking like he's shouting it. There's a fine line between love and hate at times, I know how I can feel when I have to deal with my family and they don't fall into whatever line I think they should be in. They're family, so I have to deal with them and not walk away. Yet I still love them and would go to the wall for them. To me, the fact that making the album created conflicts is a good indication of how much they cared about it, and even if they did hate each other, they worked it out and they are still together.

[thelastresort]

I totally agree VA, alas unless the other four ever put out autobiographies we will never know for sure who thought what and why. I can respect that TBS and Joe just wanted the whole thing sorted, but if they were as cold and blunt to Felder as he makes out then that's what annoys me; at the very least they could have been even ever so slightly sympathetic. The fact that I don't think Felder has spoken to any Eagle bar Randy and Bernie for the last 13 years probably tells me TBS and Joe weren't too upset by matters. Anyway, moving on...

Yes, I can imagine the concoction of Henley's perfectionism, Glenn's 'authoritarian' management, Joe's patience and Timothy's eternal pleasantness probably begins to strain a lot after a while. I do have to be honest and say I would prefer LROOE to be shorter. If it was the title track, Waiting in the Weeds, How Long and seven others then it would be by a distance the best album they ever put out, not bad for a bunch of guys in their 50s and 60s.

[webvan]

I don't think there's much mystery behind what happened, Felder wanted the original agreement to be enforced, Frey and Henley didn't, kicked him out and were forced by the trial to buy him out. Joe and TBS probably didn't have much of a say in the matter and couldn't forego the huge cheques, who would? I actually remember Henley saying in an interview a long time ago (when he launched the Walden Woods project maybe?) that one of the reasons they might do something is to help out guys like TBS who hadn't seen much cash come their way.

[Brooke]

I don't really have anything to add and I think you all are right on in your assumptions here. I'm sure Joe and Timothy felt bad for Felder at the time, but the truth is, they still wanted to be in the band. They wanted the money more than they wanted to be Felder's friend. Had they sided with Felder would have meant the end of the band completely. No more albums, no more touring, no more money! And they have continued for how many more years now? 13! And even if they were hating each other during the making of LROOE, evidently they continued to get along well enough to tour all these years since, and do the HotE dvd and tour!

[UndertheWire]

Felder's book, the documentary and Marc Eliot's book all tell pretty much the same stories just from different points of view. The doc treads lightly on the friction between Henley and Frey whereas Felder probably omits some of his own annoying behaviour because it wasn't annoying to him.

[Freypower]

I agree with you, TLR, which is why I feel it points to just how much damage Felder did that he didn't put in his book. Glenn and Don had gotten to the point where it was fire Felder or once again put an end to the Eagles. Joe and Timothy were likely a little more objective and probably realized the impact it would be, not having Felder on board. They realized the scrutiny they would all undergo from media and fans alike, to once again have their motives questioned, etc. To know it could have all been avoided had to make them a little bitter. Personally, in the entire situation, I don't see where Felder respected their wishes, so I wonder why they owed anything to him at the end? He said he was fighting for their rights as well, but they obviously didn't agree with that.

You know, when you have a splinter under your fingernail that keeps getting more and more irritating, to the point where the entire finger is jeopardized, a person has to make the decision to either remove the splinter or eventually cut off the entire finger. Right or wrong, Glenn and Don felt that was the decision they had to make. Timothy and Joe were close enough to know what all had happened and for reasons we can only speculate about, they didn't stand with Felder. He may have felt betrayed, but we haven't heard any details from the other four sides of the story. All I can say, is when four stand together and one is on the outside, I have to consider that maybe the story behind the four is the most accurate, even if I don't know what that story is. I just know the story I've heard from the one on the outside is not the full truth.

As for LROOE, it pains me to say this, because I absolutely love Don. But we heard about his new solo album in 2009 and it's now the fall of 2014. Where is it? He wants to give his fans the best he can give, but he seems to be blinded by the fact they'd rather have something that's only 99.9999% perfect than nothing at all. Things like this would have driven the others completely crazy during LROOE. As much as I love Glenn to pieces, I don't really think he's the easiest person to work with. He knows where to lead the band, and even if he's 100% correct, I'm betting his methods are less than subtle. And Joe...I bet he has a rough time hiding his impatience, and he can be completely quiet and you still know what he's thinking like he's shouting it. There's a fine line between love and hate at times, I know how I can feel when I have to deal with my family and they don't fall into whatever line I think they should be in. They're family, so I have to deal with them and not walk away. Yet I still love them and would go to the wall for them. To me, the fact that making the album created conflicts is a good indication of how much they cared about it, and even if they did hate each other, they worked it out and they are still together.


Agreed. I would rather dwell on that and not the alleged arguments or whatever, which happens to everyone. The album was made & was a huge success. How they dealt with it is their business. It is unfortunate though that during the HOTE era, both in the documentary & the tour, they have chosen to almost totally ignore it.

[MaryCalifornia]

I would be surprised if they "still fight," though I believe they did during the making of LROOE. I have to believe they have zero contact with each other except when they're on stage or making a required appearance. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards haven't been in each other's dressing room in 20 years, and I'm guessing that's how the Eagles roll as well. They used to live together, write together, record together, drink and do drugs together, of course they fought, but I'm guessing that in 2014 they keep it purely professional and their personal interactions to a bare minimum, in order to continue to be able to successfully keep this tour going.

I even question how much collaboration between Don and Glenn was required for the doc. Some, to get the right tone, etc...but I'll bet their representatives managed it without the guys once being together in person.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I don't know, MC, of course. While I see what you are saying, I guess I look at it as though they don't hang out together. They don't avoid each other, but they don't seek each other out, either. Obviously, Joe and Glenn do things together, and we saw a picture where Don and Timothy were together at a restaurant on tour.

[MaryCalifornia]

You said it right, VA. Probably don't seek out, but don't actively avoid.

The fact that Don and Timothy were with the guy from the hottest band in the UK makes me think it was some sort of industry event, not that Don and Timothy were having a dinner together and just happened to run into him! But, obviously I have no idea. I don't know what Joe and Glenn do outside of Party of Two, which I consider work...I'm not trying to say the guys are never together in public, just that their, ummm, "interpersonal dynamics" have probably changed since LROOE and in their wisdom they try to minimize situations (particularly Don and Glenn) they know could result in conflict!!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

You said it right, VA. Probably don't seek out, but don't actively avoid.

The fact that Don and Timothy were with the guy from the hottest band in the UK makes me think it was some sort of industry event, not that Don and Timothy were having a dinner together and just happened to run into him! But, obviously I have no idea. I don't know what Joe and Glenn do outside of Party of Two, which I consider work...I'm not trying to say the guys are never together in public, just that their, ummm, "interpersonal dynamics" have probably changed since LROOE and in their wisdom they try to minimize situations (particularly Don and Glenn) they know could result in conflict!!

It looked like a regular restaurant to me, but perhaps it's one popular with celebrities? This past trip to the UK, Joe and Glenn and their wives went out with Sir Paul for his birthday. I've seen pics of Glenn and Joe at a basketball game as well, maybe 2012? While they were on tour.

[webvan]

I don't really have anything to add and I think you all are right on in your assumptions here. I'm sure Joe and Timothy felt bad for Felder at the time, but the truth is, they still wanted to be in the band. They wanted the money more than they wanted to be Felder's friend. Had they sided with Felder would have meant the end of the band completely. No more albums, no more touring, no more money! And they have continued for how many more years now? 13! And even if they were hating each other during the making of LROOE, evidently they continued to get along well enough to tour all these years since, and do the HotE dvd and tour!

Right and I'm not exactly sure what Felder meant when he said he was fighting for "them"? Joe and TBS had been well paid employees and it's unlikely there was any hint that they would make partner at that time. Felder was fighting a losing battle to keep a right that he could no longer really claim to be his due to his lack of "leadership", he was always more of a "junior" partner anyway, not like Charlie is in the Stones to Mick or Keith. More like Ronnie and if Mick and Keith decided Ronnie had to go he'd be gone, (junior) partner or not. Again, he had the law on his side as was proven in court but for the dynamics of the band it didn't really make sense to keep that situation from the past. He should have realized that and maybe have his attorneys work something out behind the scenes...although of course that would have weakened his position in a later battle in court.

I remember Frey deriding Felder in an interview because he'd given up music and gone into real estate, i.e. not an artist, only interested in the money, so I guess he took comfort in that when he had to buy him out in court...At the end of the day, the fans are those who really lost out.

[UndertheWire]

I remember Frey deriding Felder in an interview because he'd given up music and gone into real estate,
Do you remember where this was? It's not one I've seen/heard (which only means I haven't found it online).

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Well, not only did Felder claim to be fighting for Joe and Tim, but, in his book, he includes Randy and Bernie as well. I have been very critical of Felder for his remarks about this because, even though it may not have been his intent, it comes across as very insulting and insensitive to me. It makes these other men appear to be weak and spineless that they would need Felder to fight for them. I believe if Bernie, Randy, Joe, or Tim had something worth fighting for, they were quite capable of waging their own battles. They didn’t need an uninvited self-appointed savior.

With regard to the lawsuit, I have to disagree with the statement that Felder “had the law on his side as was proven in court.” Nothing was proven in court because the case never went to trial. Whenever there is a settlement of this kind, it means there is a mutual agreement where neither party admits guilt. One reason that parties usually settle is because there is no clear winner and each side bears some culpability. Also, it seems to me that it is hard for either side to declare victory when you initially sue for $200 million and end up settling out of court for $20-$30 million, but I guess that is debatable. When Felder was fired, he was given three $1000 checks from Irving, Glenn, and Don H. Even though they had to know that this would be unacceptable to Felder, they apparently never offered a settlement at that time. That tells me that they knew a lawsuit was inevitable and this was their way of saying ‘bring it on’. Additionally, you have to remember that Felder violated a clause in his contract by refusing to surrender his shares in the band’s corporation upon his departure. So, there was lots of legal wrangling back and forth, and we’ll, obviously, never know what the outcome would have been if the case had been fully litigated in court.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

It has always been my opinion, and I admit it's more of a gut feel than a true informed opinion, that Glenn, Don, and Irving finally settled for three main reasons. As you said, Dreamer, $3k meant they knew there'd likely be more later. Second, having actually go to court would have made public a lot of things, good, bad, and indifferent, that they prefer to keep private. Keeping in mind that these guys are just as private with the good things as the bad things, so wanting privacy doesn't mean they felt they were at fault in anything. Lastly, they wanted and needed to move forward with LROOE, and they couldn't do that with this hanging over their head. Besides legalities, they wanted it behind them, over and done with, and all talked out before promoting the album and touring.

Given all that, they probably offered more than what they would have otherwise, and I feel that Felder accepted it because he either knew it was more money than he'd probably get in court, or because the legal aspect was costing more than he wanted to keep shelling out. Or both.

Regardless of what side you're on, it's always the lawyers that make out the best.

[webvan]

Right, it didn't go to trial, but he did end up getting a massive settlement...where does your number come from though? There can't be any official source since none of the parties are allowed to comment. I hadn't heard that Felder had "violated a clause in his contract by refusing to surrender his shares in the band’s corporation upon his departure". Are you saying that all the partners had a clause saying that with a majority vote by other members they could be bought out for face value? Seems odd and a bit of a technicality anyway since the corporation he had a stake in was a shell by that time and that's what he sued them about really. I can't see how the fact that he didn't actually hand back his shares could have much traction in court.


Do you remember where this was? It's not one I've seen/heard (which only means I haven't found it online).

It's been a while...I remember reading a long interview in July 1994, (Guitar Magazine ?) it might have been from there although I'm not quite clear why Frey would have been critical of Felder at that time, maybe they were recycling old quotes. I'll go looking!

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Webvan – I’m not trying to be rude, but life is very hectic right now, so I really don’t have time to go through all the details of the lawsuit. However, all of the information that I know can be found in this thread or in Felder’s book. But I'll try to respond to your direct questions. I’m almost sure that the amount of Felder’s original lawsuit can be verified here or in his book. As for the settlement amount, you are correct that the actual amount was undisclosed. However, at the time of the settlement, it was presumed and speculated to be somewhere between $20 - $30 million. As I said, whether this is a massive amount or not is debatable. To me, it is an enormous amount of money, but if I bring it down to numbers I can wrap my head around, I, personally, would consider it a very hollow victory to settle for 10 - 15% of what I had originally asked for. In other words, if I believed I deserved $20,000 in a lawsuit and only ended up with $2,000 or $3,000, I think I’d be very disappointed.

As far as the clause in his contract regarding his shares, he also writes about that in his book. If I recall correctly, the contract required departing members to sell their shares back to the corporation for a nominal sum. Again, we’ll never know, but it is incumbent upon the court to follow the letter of the law, so I seriously doubt that any deemed breach of contract would have been swept under the carpet in litigation.

[webvan]

Not rude at all, thanks for discussing these points further, I'll go back to Felder's book when I get a chance, maybe more info was given in the original version that was recalled. I think we all agree that the whole thing was a mess and that in the end it's the fans who lost out by no longer being able to enjoy the "Hotel California" version of the band.

[UndertheWire]

Webvan, I tried to respond the first time that you wrote about the fans being the ones who lost out, but I had problems with posting.

I don't see it that way. Typically, bands don't last that long and they rarely stick with the same line-up for a long period. We have the "classic" period and anything beyond that is a bonus.

If you look at the reunion, the Eagles completed the HFO tour and then did very little together before they ditched Felder. A couple of benefits, the Hall of Fame appearance, three millenium concerts and an aborted attempt to record new material is all they had to show for five years. In the thirteen years since Felder's departure they've been far more active with touring and releasing a double album. So in that respect, fans are the winners.

Fans of Don Felder get to enjoy his latest album and catch him on tour at a lower price than if he'd still been with the Eagles.

[Freypower]

Not rude at all, thanks for discussing these points further, I'll go back to Felder's book when I get a chance, maybe more info was given in the original version that was recalled. I think we all agree that the whole thing was a mess and that in the end it's the fans who lost out by no longer being able to enjoy the "Hotel California" version of the band.

I hate to be pedantic but the Hotel Califorina version of the band ceased to exist when Meisner was replaced by Schmit.

I saw Felder on the HFO tour & I have stated on numerous occasions that I don't feel that I lost out after that at all. See UTW's comments above.

[chaim]

Personally I don't believe for a second that Don F had Randy, Bernie, Joe and Timothy in mind when he prepared for the "battle". And I have always hated that "My Lord, don't you realize?" in his book that he claims to have said to Timothy. He may have said something like it to get Timothy on his side, but I don't believe that he was that dramatic. But it does look effective in the book, of course.

[ryanhuntmuzik]

Does any one have any educated guesses on how much they settled for? I've always wondered approximately how much Felder won from the lawsuit.

[MaryCalifornia]

I'm guessing it was a complex settlement that is ongoing and that has had to take into consideration royalties from digital sales and other new and emerging media. As much as Don and Glenn would have liked to pay one lump sum and be done with it, comments from both sides lead me to believe that the case is not over and there are still entanglements. The value of any lump sum payment that was initially paid out may end up paling in comparison to Felder's eventual compensation, as part of the settlement, from royalties. I doubt he agreed to give up any elements of future royalties from sources and media that didn't even exist in the first part of this century.

And, Welcome!!

[Roey]

Mary...I agree with your assessment, especially with the categorization of "complex". The legal fight, even though sparked by hurt and anger, is not about what happened or personal relationships but what will happen with the future financial returns (which will continue beyond their lifetimes). The stakes are so high it is unlikely a good attorney would allow the initial settlement to be the end of the case.

I am only partly thru reading the book. So far my thoughts are that Don Felder seems to have a rationalization for any of his bad behavior. It is amazing how many prominent musicians' paths crossed in their younger years. Don Felder is an amazing guitarist by all counts. Bernie is a really nice guy, honest, talented and a good friend. Don's derogatory comments mainly focus on Glenn but the direct quotes from Glenn included in the book do not make Glenn appear unreasonable and even demonstrate his sense of humor. Youth, drugs, fame, creativity all added to the crazy mix (good and bad).

I can't help but think that Irving should have facilitated better communication and brokered a deliniation of responsibilities and compensation. He was supposed to be everyone's manager but comes across in the book as merely being the messenger. He could have mediate creative differences. Rather than dismiss Don F's requests for info, he could have helped Don F look at the business side from a different perspective. Glenn and Don H set the goal of the band creatively and focused on a business plan. All in the band benefited from their ideas, extra time and connections so maybe additional compensation was reasonable. The other band members are relieved of dealing with business entanglements yet benefit financially and are free to concentrate on their music. Everybody wins, including Irving. Right now the big winners may be the lawyers!

Back to reading now. I have always loved the music but didn't really follow the personal lives of the band members until now, learning alot.

[UndertheWire]

Some interesting thoughts about how Azoff could have managed things better. It reminded me of David Geffen supposedly being appalled at the idea of someone like Azoff managing a band as highly-strung as the Eagles.

As Felder joined after Azoff became manager, his book doesn't have anything on the wranglings with management early in their career and because he was shut out/not interested it doesn't have much on the wranglings with record company later. That's why I'm hoping for something from one of the founding members.

I've been thinking about the timelines. I'm not certain of when Azoff moved in and when he split from Geffen-Roberts. He was certainly managing them before Felder joined because he was part of setting them up with Bill Symzyck and Felder only joined at the end of those recording sessions. The "money for Christmas" incident must have been late 1973, after they returned from London and the aborted recording of "On the Border". At that time they had no money and their management hadn't been doing a lot for them.

What this has to do with Felder is that I believe he's right when he says they had nothing when he joined them - at least financially - and then within a few years of his joining they were superstars. What's harder to determine is how much he contributed to that change. He was recruited because Frey/Henley/Meisner/Azoff wanted a harder sound for the band. At the same time, Azoff was pushing for a better deal for them, organising the new corporate structure and making sure the record company supported their releases.

[MaryCalifornia]

Irving had (has) so many conflicts of interest as regards the individual members of the band, he couldn't possibly have been working in each of their best interests. But, I don't blame him, I think they were making it up as they went, and as long as the money was rolling in, they weren't all 7 of them going to go out and get their own personal manager/agent/business manager.

It seems like many of Timothy's 1980-90 work was because of Irving's efforts on his part, so for that he (Irving) holds a sweet place in my heart.

[Roey]

Just watched the Howard Stern interview with Don Felder on youtube. Don said the lawsuit lasted 6 and half years, it was settled and due to a nondisclosure clause he can't talk about it. He did say that the band left him no choice but to file a lawduit. Robin, Howard's cohost, said something like the money is still rolling in, there must be some provision for you to share in the profits. Don said he couldn't say but he smiled. Don talked about good times with Joe and said he felt bad that he put Joe in a tough spot. When asked when he last spoke to Joe, he said it was at a deposition. When answering questions about the problems among the band memebers, it seemed to me Don Felder blamed alot on Don Henley. Overall it seemed Howard and his staff beat up on Henley and Frey until Robin said "We don't have the other side of the story". Howard said you all made great music together it is a shame it will never happen again. Don Felder replied never say never.

I wish there was someone influential enough to foster a reconcilliation.

The interviewed may have already been discussed in some threads. For anyone that hasn't seen it, topics other than the lawsuit are discussed. I thought it was informative.

[UndertheWire]

I listened to it again but it didn't add much for me. Admittedly, I skipped the bit about how he wrote Hotel California as he tells that in every interview.

What I find odd is that in his interviews and book he always talks about how they were all equal when he joined with the two songs per album etc and yet from other accounts (Bernie, Glyn Johns, a former manager) Glenn and Henley were already dominant before Felder joined.

So which "full partner" came up with the idea of the Third Encore? At least according to Felder. I had assumed it was a tour manager or roadie.

[webvan]

Thanks for the summary of that interview I saw sometime ago. It's got info not available elsewhere AFAIK.

As for the "equal partners", yeah, Frey and Henley already had an upper hand it seems. What "skewed" that I suppose is that Felder came up with the blistering solo on OOTN that caught people's attention and of course with the music for HC (although it seems he might have got it from Jethro Tull) without which...

[VAisForEagleLovers]

As for the "equal partners", yeah, Frey and Henley already had an upper hand it seems.

For me, what really tells the way it was is that Felder met the guys through Bernie, and Felder and Bernie knew each other pretty well. Bernie talked Felder into going to LA to begin with. However, after that first recording session, it was Glenn who called Felder. It seems to me that in a band where everything was equal, it would have been Bernie that made that call, since they were friends and had a history. Maybe there was a reason Bernie couldn't or wouldn't make the call (like being busy doing something else) and perhaps Felder knew of it at the time. If not, then that should have told Felder all he needed to knew about the true dynamics of the band right then.

[UndertheWire]

That could be explained as Glenn being the spokesman for the band following a band meeting. At that time, they were still going though the motions of being a democracy.

However, in the Stern interview, Felder does say that when Eagles Ltd was formed, Glenn was elected President and Henley Secretary so that seems to acknowledge who was running things.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Oh, I'm sure it was discussed, but it seems to me that in a real democracy, after the discussion, the long time friend would be the one to be the bearer of good news. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that Glenn made the call would tell me that Glenn was the leader. Maybe it's just the dynamics of the people I grew up with...

[sodascouts]

Bernie was the one who objected to making Felder a full partner initially, but Glenn insisted. Ah, the irony!

[shunlvswx]

Sounds like a big foreshadowing of what was going to happen down the road.

[UndertheWire]

This is my attempt to make sense of the legal position, mostly based on Felder's book but also some of his interviews. It's a bit long and dull, but I thought I might as well share.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and I'm outside the US but I've tried to apply some common sense and a fairly basic understanding of corporate law. It may all be wrong.

In 1980, the Eagles were owned by Eagles Ltd, a corporation with Frey, Henley and Felder as equal shareholders. Walsh and Schmit were not shareholders. All five, whether shareholders or not received an equal share of profits from performance and merchandise. Royalties from publishing came outside of this. Between them, Frey and Henley owned two thirds of the shares and therefore had a controlling interest. Of course, if Felder had been able to form an alliance with Henley, that would have changed.

In 1994, Eagles Ltd still had three shareholders. However, the proposal was to set up a new corporation for the HFO tour and record deal. All five would become shareholders but this time the shareholding would not be equal. Between them, Henley and Frey would own four sevenths of this new corporation – again, a controlling interest but just to make sure, their shares would be the only ones with voting rights. Walsh and Schmit would become shareholders for the first time and would be equal to Felder but not Frey or Henley. Note that if they'd all been given equal shares, Frey and Henley would no longer have had a controlling interest. Eagles Ltd was not dissolved and was still owned equally by Frey, Henley and Felder. Profit from earlier activities should still have gone through Eagles Ltd. Profit on the HFO tour would be distributed through the new company in proportion to the shareholdings.

When Felder was “fired” in 2001, he was offered a small amount of money for his shareholding in Eagles Ltd ($3,000?). My guess is this was based on a valuation of the tangible assets of Eagles Ltd – cash in the bank, office equipment etc – but took no account of the intangibles, the most valuable being the Eagles name (brand). The brand is used to promote records, videos, concerts and on merchandise and has potential to be used to promote a wider variety of products. How do you place a value on a name? I’m guessing that Felder’s move to dissolve Eagles Ltd was an attempt to force a valuation of all the assets.

Felder’s lawsuits had at least three components – 1) his dismissal and whether it was legal 2) the operation of the new companies (alleged sweetheart deals etc) 3) compensation for his share in Eagles Ltd. I’m only interested in the latter because there isn't much to go on for the first two. There was an undisclosed settlement in 2006/2007.

Eagles Ltd has assets that include archival material prior to 1994 and it’s been said that the release of such materials was part of the settlement deal.

Felder has hinted that he is still an owner of Eagles Ltd and makes money when the Eagle tour. My guess is that Eagles Ltd licenses the brand for new recordings, tours and for merchandise and Felder receives his share of these license fees.

I don’t think any of this affects publishing. When the Eagles play Hotel California and Those Shoes, Felder receives income from his publishing. In theory, Henley and Frey also receive publishing income when Felder plays their songs (in practice, this only happens if he has one of the top 200 US tours according to Pollstar so this is probably the first year that they’ll get anything).

[webvan]

Going by memory this looks like a good summary. I'm not sure Eagles Ltd still exists though, at least with Felder inside, didn't he say in his book that he sued to have it dissolved and get his rightful share by forcing a valuation as you specify.

I think one of the problems Felder had with the 2001 arrangement is that the new corporation got to use the name without paying any (or of substance) royalties to Eagles Ltd.

[Freypower]

I don't see how Felder can make any money from the Eagles now except through songwriting royalties. How can he get licence fees for something in which he hasn't been involved? I thought the new recordings were made by Eagles Recording Company.

[MaryCalifornia]

My guess is that Eagles Ltd licenses the brand for new recordings, tours and for merchandise and Felder receives his share of these license fees.


Very nice, UTW. Well, I am a lawyer, and like everyone else I don't know the terms of the settlement, but I can't imagine that Don and Glenn would agree to your above guess. No way they license the name and brand "Eagles" to themselves and Felder gets a cut. They would not have allowed him to be a licensor of the Eagles property in perpetuity. This is where the big fat cash payout would come in - to get him out, for good.

Agree that he gets money when the radio and streaming services play songs he wrote, when the Eagles play them in concert, and I'm wondering if maybe they had to cut him in for a fraction of future merchandise sales - that I could see. Maybe they also have to pay him when they use his image in promotional materials? Even though he doesn't own the photo, this is something I would ask for if I were him.

Edit: I thought of a couple more revenue-generating things I would have asked for if I were him: 1) his cut of any re-issue of albums he appeared on; and, 2) his cut of any published video from shows he appears in, like the Washington DC show bonus in HOTE.

[UndertheWire]

MC, thanks for your insight. As Felder hinted that he still received money from Eagles tours, I was trying to think of a way that could happen. Merchandise seems possible, especially when it uses a design from his years with the band (eg Hotel California t-shirts).

I assumed that Felder, Leadon and Meisner would all benefit from re-issuing of old material to which they contributed.

I've seen it mentioned that part of the settlement was that the Eagles would release archived material, so I think you are right in that Felder will receive a share of that.

[Funk 50]

With hindsight, it looks like part of the legal agreement was that Don can't use the Eagles name to promote his solo career but he can, sure as hell, use the term, Hotel California.

He may have supplied the music but the title is a gift from the "gods" :thumbsup:

I can't see Felder getting money, beyond royalties for Hotel California and Those Shoes, from current Eagles tours, unless his name and/or image appear on the merchandise.

[MaryCalifornia]

I count six (6) photos of him in the 2013 HOTE Tour program.

Interesting that he can't say "Former Eagles guitarist and songwriter Don Felder."?? I mean, media outlets say that about him, but he can't bill himself as such? So complicated.

And, I bought one of the neon Hotel California t-shirts. He probably got, like, 2 cents from it!! I don't have a problem with that :hilarious:

[webvan]

Pretty silly indeed on the other hand it's kinda sad to see "ex-blabla" slapped on to posters or repeated ad-nauseam...especially for guys who used to be the "leader" of their bands, like Roger Waters or Roger Hodgson.

"As Felder hinted that he still received money from Eagles tours" - where did he hint at that? By not replying to that question on HS?

[UndertheWire]

"As Felder hinted that he still received money from Eagles tours" - where did he hint at that? By not replying to that question on HS?
Good challenge. It's more a case of Felder agreeing with a statement made by his interviewer. The problem is that he gives a lot of interviews and most of the content is the same which makes it hard to remember where (I think) I heard it as well as a chore to listen to them all again. If I find anything, I'll let you know.

[john29302]

i can imagine the sum of money that hen n glen would have given same response as felder. seems like a lot of people dont realize if its their money its a little different than when its not theirs. how in the world did these guys ever decide to be coorperate operating entities first and band members second? its hard to not let the left hand know what the right is doing. firing a key contributor to your own success is pure narcisism. i cant imagine eagles without hotel california. azoff sed no one wanted a refund after felder got the boot but way before that felder anteed up n azoff got rich off the sucker. just seems like coorperate bs shoulda been left outta the music n fingers coulda had what was agreed n all coulda showed up n tried but hen n glen sed no. seems like glen coulda been more flexible. glen attaches himself to things then figures how neccesary others are. no one knows or will ever find out if felder as 33% partner woulda been been more lucrative for these these folks. i say another dose of felders mexican reggae n viola the vampires woulda been fed nicely but no glen had to can him. its impossible to prophesie life without the twist the tale took.

[UndertheWire]

Welcome, John. You obviously have something to say but I'm a bit confused. Maybe you could edit your post to make it clearer.

[UndertheWire]

Earlier in this thread, I was trying to work out the timeline for the reunion, and in particular, the “Malibu Men’s Choir”. The consensus was that it was probably late eighties. However, since then I’ve heard a 1992 interview with Timothy in which he mentions working with Don Felder in the near future. At that time (June to early September 1992), Timothy and Joe were both in Ringo Starr’s All Star Band. The first attempt to build a new band included Joe Walsh but Felder decided he couldn’t work with Joe and by March 1993, Joe was on tour with Glenn Frey. That gives a window for the Felder-Schmit-Walsh-Reid band of September 1992 to February 1993. After ditching Walsh and Reid, they recruited Paul Carrack and Max Carl and that would seem to be at some time from late 1992 into 1993.

I understand that working with someone in a recording studio is quite different to being out on tour with them, but it’s interesting to know that Timothy and Glenn both worked with Joe during this period and maybe gives a clue as to why Joe didn’t support Felder later on.

Going back to the book, I’ve realised that its timeline from 1980 to 1994 is a mess. In a recent interview, Felder said that his co-author, Wendy Holden, took the bits he’d written and tried to put them into chronological order and that may explain it.
In particular, I’m thinking of chapter 15 which roughly covers 1984 to 1993. Don describes how his wife became ill soon after the birth of their youngest daughter (Leah, born 1982) and how he became depressed and was put on Prozac until Susan recovered. He then describes the “Malibu Men’s Choir” (1992). Then it’s back to Henley and Glenn getting together over champagne (possibly 1985?), Henley’s third album (1989), the 1990 almost reunion. Next up is Henley and Glenn performing at a charity event in 1993 and Glenn and Joe’s Party of Two tour, then he’s on about a Rainforest gig with Henley, Glenn and Timothy (which I believe was 1990) and some other event where Glenn sent a message from hospital (1986?). Finally, he gets onto Travis Tritt in 1993. To summarise: 1982, 1992, 1985, 1989, 1990, 1993, 1990, 1986, 1993.

Based on the book and some other sources, Don's timeline may have been something like
1981-1984 musically active including solo album, soundtracks and session work
1985-1989 Susan ill, Don the family man, lots of leisure activities (boats, planes, scuba), real estate, tv presenting (?)
1990-1993 trying to get back into music including Malibu Men's Choir
1994-2000 Eagles reunion, decline of marriage
2001-2007 lawsuit and book, new relationship
2008-now building a new solo career

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Lots of research and analyzing, UTW, good job! It's that same section in a lot of books that tends to get a little mushy, and I did notice that Don's was no different. Some authors, ghostwriters, and editors like to take a chronological approach, and others do it loosely with the points they're trying to get across in a certain order. One example is Welcome To My Jungle by Craig Duswalt, who worked with Axl Rose while Guns & Roses were at their peak, and while an informative book, other than the beginning and end, it hopped all over the place, time-wise. It was a small enough book and time period that it worked. It doesn't, really, in Don's book. At least, not for avid fans.

[UndertheWire]

Here's another bit that's been rattling around my brain from reading the book. Various sources have said the relations between Felder and Frey deteriorated during the HFO tour. Apart from money, it's clear that Don resented Glenn making decisions without consulting the rest of them and that he not only questioned Glenn's authority but even his competence.

Don tells the story of the new house mixer brought in by Glenn. Don worries about the guy's experience and goes looking for a problem. He finds something - the mix of one instrument on one song - and makes a big deal about it, bringing in other musicians, producers and eventually Henley at which point Glenn tells Felder to mind his own business. To Felder, his own behaviour was reasonable, but I can see why Glenn, who was in charge of the tour, would see this as interference intended to undermine his authority as well as make life difficult for the new guy. Don doesn't name him, but I'm pretty sure this was JD Brill who is still the house mixer for the band and who is considered to be one of the best in the business these days.

There are many places in the book where Don gives the impression that he thinks Glenn's standards are lower than Henley's and decisions are based on a whim rather than what is best. If Don was like this during the tour, I am sure it created friction.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

You know, when you have a splinter under your fingernail that keeps getting more and more irritating, to the point where the entire finger is jeopardized, a person has to make the decision to either remove the splinter or eventually cut off the entire finger.

A quote from a post I made ( #758 ). So obviously, UTW, I agree with you. So many people read this book and watch the documentary and blame Glenn for being too hard on Felder. Yes, the man knew (and still knows) what he's doing with a guitar in his hands. All I can say is that I would never in a million years put up with someone questioning my abilities and competence and needling at me for seven years, I wouldn't care how talented he was, or even what fans may or may not want. I guess it's for this reason that I give Glenn so much credit (or thinking him a little crazy) for putting up with it as long as he did. He probably put up with it because he felt it was the best thing for the band, and when it was no longer the best thing for the band, Felder was removed.

[chaim]

Also, in his book Don complains about just about everything from HFO onwards. Don's "millennium rap", rehearsed answers in interviews etc. etc. If he felt that way (and that strongly) about so many things, he must have brought a rather negative vibe that way too - not just because he questioned Glenn's decisions and stuff.
Someone made a great point earlier about Don feeling that his own actions were justifiable. IMO that's one major fault in most "let's set the record straight" autobiographies.

[Sebastian]

Someone mad a great point earlier about Don feeling that his own actions were justifiable. IMO that's one major fault in most "let's set the record straight" autobiographies.

Excellent and nicely put. Has anyone read Glyn Johns' book? I haven't bought it yet (hopefully will soon), but I heard he bashes Eagles a bit, which is a shame...

[Jonny Come Lately]

There's a separate thread for discussing his new book here:

https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5411&highlight=glyn+johns

I don't think there's anything hugely expected in his book from what I've heard about on here, there are some quotes which remind me a fair bit of the HOTE documentary. I wouldn't say he bashes the band too much although I believe he prefers the work he did with the Eagles to their later music.

[Sebastian]

There's a separate thread for discussing his new book here:

https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5411&highlight=glyn+johns

I don't think there's anything hugely expected in his book from what I've heard about on here, there are some quotes which remind me a fair bit of the HOTE documentary. I wouldn't say he bashes the band too much although I believe he prefers the work he did with the Eagles to their later music.

Thank you, very interesting.

Regarding the previous discussion about leadership by the time Felder joined, I seem to remember he already described that in his book when he mentioned the first time he saw the band live. It seems to me that Glenn was already running the show. 'Democracy' and 'dictatorship' aren't the only options, and I think, paradoxical as it may sound, a band can jolly well be a democracy and at the same time have someone leading said democracy.

I really admire how Glenn agreed to (and possibly encouraged) Henley's increasing role as lead vocalist for so many songs, demonstrating how he emphasised what was best for the song, rather than merely seeking to cater to his own ego. He could've easily sung most of those tracks and/or played more lead guitar, achieving 99% of the quality the others did, but he was humble enough to work for the song.

That perfectly exemplifies the famous meme about 'boss' vs 'leader,' Glenn being a good example of the latter. And yes, the fact he was the one who rang Fingers already reflected their dynamics in my opinion.

http://msl-cdn.radiantforestllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/boss-vs-leader-800x800.png

[chaim]

Thank you, very interesting.

Regarding the previous discussion about leadership by the time Felder joined, I seem to remember he already described that in his book when he mentioned the first time he saw the band live. It seems to me that Glenn was already running the show. 'Democracy' and 'dictatorship' aren't the only options, and I think, paradoxical as it may sound, a band can jolly well be a democracy and at the same time have someone leading said democracy.

I really admire how Glenn agreed to (and possibly encouraged) Henley's increasing role as lead vocalist for so many songs, demonstrating how he emphasised what was best for the song, rather than merely seeking to cater to his own ego. He could've easily sung most of those tracks and/or played more lead guitar, achieving 99% of the quality the others did, but he was humble enough to work for the song.

That perfectly exemplifies the famous meme about 'boss' vs 'leader,' Glenn being a good example of the latter. And yes, the fact he was the one who rang Fingers already reflected their dynamics in my opinion.


This is something a lot of Glenn bashers don't seem to get. And I'm not talking about people on this foum, but perhaps more about those who don't know too much about the band but keep commenting on YouTube and other (non-Eagles-)forums nevertheless.

[Freypower]

Thank you, very interesting.

Regarding the previous discussion about leadership by the time Felder joined, I seem to remember he already described that in his book when he mentioned the first time he saw the band live. It seems to me that Glenn was already running the show. 'Democracy' and 'dictatorship' aren't the only options, and I think, paradoxical as it may sound, a band can jolly well be a democracy and at the same time have someone leading said democracy.

I really admire how Glenn agreed to (and possibly encouraged) Henley's increasing role as lead vocalist for so many songs, demonstrating how he emphasised what was best for the song, rather than merely seeking to cater to his own ego. He could've easily sung most of those tracks and/or played more lead guitar, achieving 99% of the quality the others did, but he was humble enough to work for the song.

That perfectly exemplifies the famous meme about 'boss' vs 'leader,' Glenn being a good example of the latter. And yes, the fact he was the one who rang Fingers already reflected their dynamics in my opinion.



I admire it but I think he was wrong to go so far. To go from three or four lead vocals on an album to one was far too drastic & a waste of his talents. It also served to give ammunition to Felder who thought he was a talentless hack. I also think the main reason that Henley sang so many more leads was because he wrote more & more lyrics while Glenn wrote fewer lyrics.

[Sebastian]

It would've been so great if they'd had alternative versions of some songs with different people on lead vocals but, then again, I guess they preferred to stick to what they thought was best. I suppose Henley, besides democratically/subjectively having the best voice of them all, also had the most commercial voice, as people associated it more with some of the best known songs, and then there's of course the lyrical side as you mentioned.

Personally, I love Don's voice but I also love Glenn's, and I really enjoy it when he's on lead ... both lead vocals and lead guitar.

[chaim]

Yeah, it was a bit ungrateful of Don F to imply in his book that the reason for Glenn stepping back was Don's talent. One of the most condescending and patronizing bits, however, was IMO that Glenn was delighted when he finally had something for The Long Run when he had Heartache Tonight. Heartache Tonight isn't exactly a minor song for Eagles.:roll: But I've probably said this before.
I remember Glenn saying at some point that he stepped back so that everyone could satisfy their egos. It's extremely ungrateful to later imply that he had to step back, because he just wasn't talented enough. But, as much as I like Don F, he's always had a bit of a "they needed me more than I needed them" vibe going IMO.

[Freypower]

As we all know the hit songs Glenn DID sing all won Grammy awards, two of which were for either Best Pop Vocal or Best Rock Vocal, the other for Best Vocal Arrangement.Two of those songs went to Number One in the singles chart while the other made the top ten. NKIT went to Number One BEFORE Hotel California, which Felder has deliberately chosen to ignore on every single occasion the subject comes up.

All three of these songs Felder pretends in his book do not exist (even though he played lead guitar on both Lyin' Eyes & New Kid In Town). The horrible anecdote about Heartache Tonight which chaim mentions is recent. Yet Felder is happy to sing the song himself, along with some other Frey songs he never even played on the original recordings.

It has to be asked why he was prepared to work with Glenn for so long if he thought he was so talentless and hated him as a person. Oh that's right. Money. The thing he claims Glenn & Henley were so obsessed with.

Perhaps someone should also tell him that attempting to ingratiate himself with Henley by claiming Henley was apparently the only Eagle as well as himself with any talent didn't work then & it won't work now.

[Funk 50]

I wish the Eagles would perform Glenn's latest Grammy award winner live "I Dreamed There Was No More War". Surely it must count as part of the History Of The Eagles. It'd give their voices a rest if nothing else.

One of our great local Radio Manchester DJs, Mike Shaft, features IDTWNMW on his religious show, every week, as backing music for his guest's, Thought For The Day.

On his pop show, way back in 1982, Mike played 6 tracks from Glenn's, The Allnighter album and 5 tracks from Felder's, Airborne album, the day they came out. Never happens now!

I remember him being disappointed with Henley's, Building The Perfect Beast, barring Boys Of Summer, though.

Sorry for straying off topic. :shrug:

[NightMistBlue]

I finally finished Don Felder's book over the holidays. Overall, I enjoyed it. We'll really need at least one other Eagle to write an autobiography (hopefully Randy!) to get anything like a fuller perspective.

[chaim]

To be fair, Don does mention in the book that HT was a number one hit.

[peterscot423]

I have Already read this book so many times and I do not get that impression at all. It's not right things that Don told that he cheated on his wife and it always made him feel badly. I don't think he felt that he was better than the others. I am totally shocked that they made him an equal partner when he joined him. But that's the wrong thing they don't justify.

[UndertheWire]

It's his story so he focuses on the tracks he had most to do with. If he ignores a song, that's a pretty good indication that he played little or no part in its creation. So long as readers realised they are not getting the whole story (and why wouldn't they as he makes little attempt to describe the band before he joined?) - I don't see it matters. He probaby doesn't know who wrote what lyric on the majority of songs and they're not the first band where multiple people lay claim to having come up with an idea. If they all came up with the same story, I'd suspect collusion!

[Jonny Come Lately]

Indeed - I've only read bits of Heaven and Hell using Google books but fortunately this has enabled me to read most of the stuff from the 1974-80 era. I care about the music first and foremost and am not especially interested in the stories about drugs, groupies and all that so I don't read those sections. Inevitably the book has a lot about Hotel California and Victim Of Love, but there's also a fair bit about Too Many Hands and Visions, and Felder's view on The Disco Strangler actually seems to be quite positive (in contrast to Teenage Jail, which he loathes, including his own solo on that song), as well as songs which he made notable contributions to like One Of These Nights or The Sad Café.

As a contrast, look at the example of Heartache Tonight, where I have read accounts from Glenn and J.D. about its writing process, which differ subtly but are essentially similar, whereas Felder's recollection is rather different. I am inclined to believe the truth is closer to Glenn's and J.D.'s accounts as they were co-writers of the song whereas there is little indication that Felder was in any way involved in writing it and he didn't play lead guitar on it either.

[Funk 50]

When Timothy B. Schmit joined the Eagles he commented on how refreshing it was that all the money, barring the songwriting revenue, was split equally. Obviously that didn't happen in Poco.

When Felder joined in 1974 he got equal shares, including an equal partnership in the company. The other four members took a pay cut (1/4 to 1/5) to accommodate him.

Greedy eh?

[UndertheWire]

It may be in part a reaction to the excessive Felder-love in some other places.

[chaim]

It may be in part a reaction to the excessive Felder-love in some other places.

Agreed.

[WalshFan88]

The dislike for Felder is way strong here. I can feel the animosity seeping from my computer monitor. LOL

Agreed, but it is what it is. Fortunately, both Felder fans and Felder not-fans can have a voice here. I've also learned to keep my mouth shut over the years when possible as it just works out better that way. :hilarious: After a while it's the "beating of a dead horse". On both views, truthfully, including mine.

That said, I'm very grateful that the "other" view is able to have a presence on the forum as well.

[SilverAcidRayne]

i just think he's gorgeous. AND I hope someday they all can work out their differences. I dont know the deep deep story about all that but maybe one day they will sort things out. :)

[Funk 50]

That gorgeous man is very keen to patch up their differences now, after driving the band to sack him, then suing them, then releasing a book full of sordid details that has permanently damaged their reputations.

[SilverAcidRayne]

That gorgeous man is very keen to patch up their differences now, after driving the band to sack him, then suing them, then releasing a book full of sordid details that has permanently damaged their reputations.

that i do realize... damage beyond repair i guess:shrug:

[thelastresort]

Well to the best of my awareness Don Henley doesn't address him by forename, only 'Mr. Felder' (on HOTE at least). Make of that what you will...

[thelastresort]

Well to the best of my awareness Don Henley doesn't address him by forename, only 'Mr. Felder' (on HOTE at least). Make of that what you will...

Just went back to check that over and he seems to use them interchangeably. Still quite a stern term of address mind.

[SilverAcidRayne]

serious bad blood... wow lol

[chaim]

Personally I don't remember having any negative thoughts about Don Felder before reading his book. I was never, and still am not, a Felder hater. I just find a lot of the things that he said (and didn't say) in his book questionable. And for some time he continued to say (IMO) questionable stuff in interviews after the book came out. One example is the "Iron lung" story he suddenly changed in an interview to make Glenn look bad.

I would very much like them to do something together again, but it's not just a case of Glenn and Don H "getting over it". IMO Don F should also take back some things he has said - and correct some things that were perhaps designed to be understood incorrectly (the ICTYW solo, HC being "the single" etc.). The picture choices of Glenn and Don H in his book say something about his agenda IMO.

[MaryCalifornia]

I think there are very few Felder haters on this board. It seems to me that most Borderers have a healthy respect for him and would prefer that he were still in the band, despite some unsavory things he has done and said re: the Eagles and continues to do, which make him an easy target for Eagles fans. I do think that Don and Glenn genuinely hate him and have hated him for decades, well before he was dismissed in 2001, and I don't begrudge them their sentiments because for them it is personal.

[Freypower]

I think there are very few Felder haters on this board. It seems to me that most Borderers have a healthy respect for him and would prefer that he were still in the band, despite some unsavory things he has done and said re: the Eagles and continues to do, which make him an easy target for Eagles fans. I do think that Don and Glenn genuinely hate him and have hated him for decades, well before he was dismissed in 2001, and I don't begrudge them their sentiments because for them it is personal.

Sorry, but I don't wish he was still in the band. As soon as I heard he was out, I dealt with it. He had every right to air his grievances but I disagree with pretty much every claim he has made.

Am I wrong to feel this way? Perhaps. Was Felder wrong to keep pushing his barrow years after the event accepting not a shred of responsiblity or appearing to have any understanding of his downfall? Was he wrong to exaggerate out of all proportion his role in the Eagles & to denigrate the talents of his bandmates? Sadly, yes.

Does this make me a 'Felder hater'? I don't think so. I think it makes me someone who found his version of events so slanted towards making himself look good & others look bad that I've seen everything he has done since from this viewpoint.

The dislike is on both sides despite his attempts at denial.

[chaim]

I think there are very few Felder haters on this board. It seems to me that most Borderers have a healthy respect for him and would prefer that he were still in the band, despite some unsavory things he has done and said re: the Eagles and continues to do, which make him an easy target for Eagles fans. I do think that Don and Glenn genuinely hate him and have hated him for decades, well before he was dismissed in 2001, and I don't begrudge them their sentiments because for them it is personal.

I think for some people, me included, it's Don's "I have tried to contact them again" mantra that sucks - like he has never tried to do anything but settle. If Don just said "I went too far here and there", perhaps I would have no problem with his most irritating remarks anymore. But as it is, if they hired him back, a lot of people would just go "oh, Glenn and Don H apologized to him. About time!" Don would still be Mr. PIIEW (Perfectly Innocent In Every Way). Here's how I see the book and a lot of the interviews:

First tell some carefully chosen truths to people - perhaps with tiny modifications, and from your perspective only (almost everyone who writes an autobiography does this). Then bash Glenn a bit. Ignore him when he has done something great (like NKIT). Then bash him again. While bashing don't ever say "Glenn sucks", however. Do it carefully so that people will go "gee, Glenn sucks!" themselves. Exaggerate your own contributions - after all you did write the bass part to one song (and didn't get a songwriting credit). Lead people to believe that you recorded the solo your "enemy" gave to you. Change some story a little in an interview whenever you feel like making people go "darn that Glenn" again. During and after all of this keep repeating "I've tried to contact them, but I'm not getting through". Don't ever admit that you may have done or said something wrong. Just be a nice, naive and innocent guy who cannot understand why his old bosses won't be friends with him again. (People like nice, naive and innocent guys.) When you've stopped making those "less kind" remarks, still don't say that you may have gone too far. Just keep repeating the "I've tried to contact them". Oh, and smile and look humble. You wrote Hotel California, but you're still down to earth. :mrgreen:

Just how I feel about it. I don't enjoy feeling this way about it. I'd love to see Fingers back in (the) Eagles.:rockguitar: And if I saw him in person, I would be absolutely in awe, I'm not trying to deny that.:blush:

[Funk 50]

I totally agree with the sentiments of Chaim and MaryCalifornia.

If Felder really wants his place in the Eagles back, or just to be on agreeable terms with his former band mates, he has a lot of making up to do before he can realistically consider any amicable communication.

As Joe sang " I finally got around to admit, I was the problem"

[UndertheWire]

My feelings about Felder went from indifferent before I saw the doc, to slightly negative after. To me, he was a late joiner who didn't contribute much and I never liked Hotel California so learning that he created the music for that didn't impress me. Then I read his book and I liked him less. What I learned was I wouldn't want to go into business with "The gods" but I wouldn't want Felder as a friend.

[SilverAcidRayne]

I think I have to read up on him more... I know everyone has different opinions of him and the more I read the more I think that his issue is that he thinks he was better than them? might have been a blunt way to put it but the more I read the more of that type of vibe I get. I can't really say cause I really don't know the WHOLE story lol

[chaim]

I think I have to read up on him more... I know everyone has different opinions of him and the more I read the more I think that his issue is that he thinks he was better than them? might have been a blunt way to put it but the more I read the more of that type of vibe I get. I can't really say cause I really don't know the WHOLE story lol

Personally I don't feel that he thinks he's better. But there's certainly this vibe in his book that they needed him more than he needed them IMO. When he had just gotten the call to come and play on what turned out to be Good Day In Hell, he "returned to more important things at hand". :? He also says that the Eagles were too this or that to his tastes when he talks about the time before he joined. But when he joined they were, of course, perfect in every way. He seems to be painting a picture that he was this Mr. Hard-To-Get that they begged to join them.

[SilverAcidRayne]

Personally I don't feel that he thinks he's better. But there's certainly this vibe in his book that they needed him more than he needed them IMO. When he had just gotten the call to come and play on what turned out to be Good Day In Hell, he "returned to more important things at hand". :? He also says that the Eagles were too this or that to his tastes when he talks about the time before he joined. But when he joined they were, of course, perfect in every way. He seems to be painting a picture that he was this Mr. Hard-To-Get that they begged to join them.

ooooh that type of deal where he made everything out to be all about him and all that jazz when it was the total opposite. lol

[thelastresort]

Personally I don't feel that he thinks he's better. But there's certainly this vibe in his book that they needed him more than he needed them IMO. When he had just gotten the call to come and play on what turned out to be Good Day In Hell, he "returned to more important things at hand". :?

I didn't read that in that context: I think that he wrote that from his perspective at the time when the song he had recorded with the Eagles was literally just a song he had been a hired hand in, I don't think for a moment he thought he'd be asked to stay, and so for that purpose his work at home probably was a more important matter. Same for practically any session work for any musician I'd say...

[UndertheWire]

I don't see him as thinking he's better than them. More that he felt he was more important than he was given credit for and at times he tried to push that. He's probably right about being undervalued and maybe that's why he makes such a big deal of his contributions in the book.

[Freypower]

I know people think I am too hard on the guy but I will make some more observations.

I'm not that interested in why they hired him, except that I suspect they regretted it fairly soon afterwards.

I would feel more sympathetic towards him if he had made more of an effort to free himself from the Eagles stigma if you like. After the original split perhaps he should have joined a band as a guitarist. He could have made a good living that way. But all he did was one contractual obligation album & then he was silent until the Eagles reformed. He had an incredibly inflated view of himself as a singer & songwriter that was in my view not justified by the Airborne album. But he made no attempt to keep himself visible in any way.

Then when the band reformed & he was allowed to be part of it all he did was complain instead of reflect on how generous Frey & Henley were by allowing him back even though he had disappeared (by the way, Glenn calls him 'ungrateful' in HOTE referring to the Cranston incident, meaning Glenn felt that Felder never appreciated the huge boost to a non-existent career that he was given when he was hired).

So when he was fired instead of trying to rebuild himself as a solo artist he spent years airing his grievances in the lawsuit & the book. Finally he released Road To Forever. This was his chance to reinvent himself as the guitar hero which anyone who remembered him all thought of him as. Instead his obsession with his co-authorship of the Eagles' most famous song prevented him from making the album sound personal & distinctive. For the most part it is pallid soft rock & ballads (I say this in full realisation that people will disagree with me; I prefer Airborne because at least it has some tracks which showcase his guitar playing).

His reluctance to develop himself as a songwriter & (let's face it) his limitations as a singer have led him to continue down the 'Hotel California songwriter & former Eagles guitarist' path into which he has locked himself permanently so that he has now become basically an Eagles tribute act, all the while continuing to tell the world how wonderful he is & how the Eagles were so lucky to have him. In my view he has mismanaged his career since the Eagles split & since he was fired, on every level.

He would probably answer that people still go to see him perform Eagles songs. In my view if he were as talented as he claims he would have risen above it all & become Don Felder, no longer Don Felder the Eagle.

[UndertheWire]

FP, you may be too hard on the guy in general, but I can't find anything to disagree with in your last post.

[MaryCalifornia]

Agree with everything FP, especially the "mismanaged" characterization. I think that is exactly what he did during his time in the Eagles and post-Eagles. He got and is getting bad advice all around. He misplayed his hand with Don and Glenn and he has shackled himself to them, on purpose, in order to continue to perform, when he doesn't need to.

[chaim]

I didn't read that in that context: I think that he wrote that from his perspective at the time when the song he had recorded with the Eagles was literally just a song he had been a hired hand in, I don't think for a moment he thought he'd be asked to stay, and so for that purpose his work at home probably was a more important matter. Same for practically any session work for any musician I'd say...

A good point. You're probably right there.

[chaim]

I don't see him as thinking he's better than them. More that he felt he was more important than he was given credit for and at times he tried to push that. He's probably right about being undervalued and maybe that's why he makes such a big deal of his contributions in the book.

Another point worth considering. But on the other hand, if he's undervalued, Randy and Bernie must be....VERY undervalued.

Don implies in his book that Randy and Bernie were as important for GH's success as Don H, Glenn and himself. Don played on three or four tracks - a noticeable part on one or two tracks - probably didn't sing on any of them. R and B played on every track and probably sang on most of them. So I think Don F is capable of undervaluing other people's work too. He had no personal reasons for downplaying their contributions, and yet he implies that he was equal to R and B when it came to GH's success.

Timothy did a noble thing during his HOF speech - the Randy bit. He didn't have to do it. If he had just kept quiet a lot people wouldn't have known who Randy is. I really respect that kind of honesty. Don F should admit that most of the GH album is the original 4 - and not try to make believe that he was an essential contributor. If his bassline for OOTN contributed greatly to the album's success, I take back my words.

And like I've said before, IMO Don F has been overvaluing his contributions since day one, even to the songwriting. So I don't think that's gonna change, although I'd like to see a bit more (genuine) humbleness.

I pretty much agree with Freypower's post above. I don't think it's a case of not being capable of doing something different. But he likes to play to as many people as possible and he likes the adoration - and the Eagles & HC thing helps there. If he didn't care as much for the adoration, he could express himself more with new music. He talks about how important it is to him to make music (as opposed to the importance of money to G & D). Well, MAKE RECORDS THEN!! He would probably lose a few concert-goers by concentrating on new music, but at least he would be doing what he apparently loves so much - making music. Or he could do them separately. New records for people who really follow him - HC and TIE for those who come to see him live. Again, all of this is just how I feel.

[WalshFan88]

I think Don being undervalued is what causes him to overexaggerate his work. I do believe GF and DH probably didn't value him as much as they should, nor did anyone else and so I think it's because he was wronged and the fact he was never given a lot of credit for his contributions in the 70s. I agree with UTW here on that.

I feel that Don should do whatever he chooses to do. His real fans will support him regardless. I certainly find him to be a good singer, great guitarist, and fun frontman and I certainly wouldn't turn down new music from him, but I'd still want to hear HC, TIE, AG, PEF, WW, Those Shoes, VOL, etc if I went to his show.

I think he was always somewhat underappreciated by the masses and that's probably why he feels he has to remind everyone who he is and what he did. In that case, I can't say I blame him. I probably wouldn't have much humility if I were in his shoes either. I will say though, he really brought a lot of great music and musical parts to the band (not just HC) during his tenure.

[chaim]

I still don't know how Don was undervalued. Glenn, for one, seemed to praise him publicly. In the early 90's I heard this radio show about the HC album and Glenn commented every track. He praised Don so much as a guitar player that you could almost hear foam coming out of his mouth. A couple of bits I remember pretty well: "Don Felder, who never had the name of Joe Walsh...(don't remember this part)...just an incredible player". When Glenn was saying that bit where he mentioned Joe Walsh his voice sounded almost like he was downplaying Joe to express how great Don is.

Did Don tell Glenn, Don H or Randy, or Tim how great they were? If not, I don't see why Glenn and Don H should have reminded Don of his greatness every once in a while. And these days the world seems to be 95% a "Felder - a god, Henley/Frey - *******'s" place. So there's no need for Don to exaggerate his contributions anymore IMO.

It seems to me that Don was a bit too sensitive in the 70's. They were young men and mostly on drugs. Plus there was a lot of pressure. In that situation people probably are not likely to sit down and tell how great the other guys are.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

HaHa, Chaim, especially guys. The 70's were way before the evolution of men into a person that communicates reasonably well to other people.

I think part of the reason (certainly not the only reason) that Felder brings up the Eagles so much is that it is his history, and history lends credibility, even when doing something new. The Eagles didn't put out a lot of pictures and mostly avoided the media. Even Henley and Frey have problems having their names recognized by casual fans at times. Since Felder didn't sing leads and wasn't part of the original line-up (Desperado - the one with faces on the cover), he would have even more of a problem. As we've come to realize, without history, you're just some guy named Paul McCartney hoping Kanye can give your career a boost.

[WalshFan88]

Agreed VA.

I can sympatheize with Felder in the sensitivity bit. I'm a heart-on-my-sleeve person and I don't take any criticism well (although it's never anger, more I reserve it when no one is around) and have been told many times I have a very thin skin. Couple that with introversion+social phobia+mild autism with difficulty understanding intent and I'm not a people person and not a person that can blow off comments made or take it better.

But regardless, I feel that HE feels he was undervalued, rather it was the case or not. Much like Steve Perry in Journey, who said "I never felt a part of the band", when interviews with the rest of the band find it hard to believe because he was running the show! :hilarious: So it goes to show that it may seem that would be impossible, a person can still think it. Just like someone who is lonely can be in a room with 10 people and still feel all alone.

[UndertheWire]

If I'm understanding what Felder wrote about his early life, he felt undervalued as a child. His brother was the big success in ways that their parents recognised and Don felt like a failure. Then when Don became successful, his father was too ill to appreciate it.

[chaim]

I can understand Don feeling that he was undervalued. That's one thing. Nothing against that. But when someone who already hates Glenn is reading Don's book, it's wrong if he/she takes Don's feelings as a fact. For example, if Don feels that Glenn didn't appreciate him enough, a Glenn hater will decide that Glenn should have told Don every day that he's great. But he didn't, so Glenn is a jerk. But that's not Don's fault, I guess.

A similar thing has happened with KISS and the late Eric Carr IMO. It has been said at least by one person close to Eric who loved him and still does, that Eric was a bit paranoid about some things concerning KISS. He feared constantly that he was going to be replaced, for example. When he was very ill he felt that he was being mistreated by Paul and Gene (maybe he was, but we don't know all the facts). IMO too many fans have taken Eric's feelings as a fact and bashed Gene and Paul on that basis.

[WalshFan88]

If I'm understanding what Felder wrote about his early life, he felt undervalued as a child. His brother was the big success in ways that their parents recognised and Don felt like a failure. Then when Don became successful, his father was too ill to appreciate it.

That might explain his need to remind everyone who he is and what he did and at times exaggerate in order to gain respect he never had as a child. Some people need constant reaffirmation due to chronic low self esteem/insecurity. Some people need reaffirmation due to their narcissism.

I think in Don's case he needs reaffirmation of his success or contributions because he felt he didn't get enough growing up and probably in the early days of him joining the Eagles. Certainly growing up without attention can cause it. Some people strive for recognition (if not praise) and feel like they are failures in some way or another if they don't get it. Some people already feel recognized or don't need it at all to feel secure about their success.

[Freypower]

If he felt that he wasn't sufficiently valued or recognised with the Eagles then perhaps instead of continuing with the endless bitterness & self-pity he should have shouted 'I'll show them' and like another allegedly undervalued musician, George Harrison, released an album along the lines of All Things Must Pass. The world would have sat up & taken notice & wondered where had all this amazing talent been hiding? None of that happened. It also didn't happen when RTF was released.

In terms of the amount of music he has made, he has the smallest discography of any Eagle. From 1980-2004 he made one album. From 2001-2015 he made one album. He appeared on two soundtracks, two in 1981 & two in 1985. As far as I know all the guest appearances he lists on his website all happened in the early 80s.

[WalshFan88]

Well I'll agree FP that he should have put out more solo music.

And I'd love for him to do an album of harder edged rock tunes that showcase the style of guitar playing he used with Eagles. Heck I'd even buy an instrumental album if it was of this nature.

[Jonny Come Lately]

I'm someone who tends to see consider both sides of the arguments within bands and can sympathise with different members on different issues. For instance in Pink Floyd Roger Waters criticised both Rick Wright and David Gilmour for not contributing enough material during the Animals/The Wall and The Final Cut eras respectively, but I sympathise with Rick in the former instance as I feel that too much pressure was placed on him when he was having problems in his personal life and he generally needed time and space to jam and come up with keyboard parts whereas in the latter case Roger was correct to criticise David for not writing anything in five years (David criticised Roger for recycling ideas from The Wall but this was undermined by the fact that he had no ideas himself at the time).

Likewise, with the Eagles I have some sympathy for Don Felder over the way the infamous Victim Of Love vocal was handled although I cannot help but think that something was missing in that story. For Don H and Glenn to handle it in the way they did suggests that they had already attempted to get the idea across that Felder's lead vocal on the song wasn't going to be good enough and that he was determined to sing VOL.

The point about George Harrison and All Things Must Pass is a good one but I have to say I don't think Don Felder is strong enough as a songwriter to have been able to put out an album like that one. Having said that I think he may have fared better in his solo career had he found a regular writing partner like Don H did with Danny Kortchmar and Glenn did with Jack Tempchin. I would compare Felder to David Gilmour in that he is better at writing music than as a lyricist and therefore having a co-writer who could have helped him get his ideas across might have helped Felder have a more fruitful solo career.

[Funk 50]

Well I'll agree FP that he should have put out more solo music.

And I'd love for him to do an album of harder edged rock tunes that showcase the style of guitar playing he used with Eagles. Heck I'd even buy an instrumental album if it was of this nature.

If Don put out a hard edged rock album, it'd have to be an instrumental because his voice isn't strong enough to go over the top of a rocking bass and drums with any conviction. Then again who wants to listen to a hard rock instrumental album.

It's funny how Don claims that his song writing was restricted by the abilities of the other Eagles. 4 top rate vocalists. One who could sing the telephone book and one who could play the telephone book on guitar.

I liked Airborne. I was very disappointed with Road To Forever.

Don's a great guitarist but I don't think he's versatile enough to cover for his weak lyrics, weak vocals and weak song writing.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

If Don put out a hard edged rock album, it'd have to be an instrumental because his voice isn't strong enough to go over the top of a rocking bass and drums with any conviction. Then again who wants to listen to a hard rock instrumental album.

F50, WF88 just said he'd listen to such a thing, you even quoted it.

[Funk 50]

I'm splitting hairs but the quote was
Heck I'd even buy an instrumental album if it was of this nature.

It's one thing to buy an album, it's something else to want to listen to it. I've bought quite a few albums that have been permanently filed shortly after.

i have great difficulty listening to Don's, Road To Forever, even when I think I'm in the mood to consume it.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

You can call it splitting hairs if you like, as long as you didn't mean to be insulting I don't care what you call it.

[WalshFan88]

It's one thing to buy an album, it's something else to want to listen to it. I've bought quite a few albums that have been permanently filed shortly after.

Well normally I don't buy albums to be paperweights or for looks. :hilarious:

I'll correct myself - I'd listen to a hard rock instrumental album.

[chaim]

When Don described in his book how he was thinking of the other guys' styles and capabilities (or something like that) when he was was writing parts for different instruments in his demos, I didn't take it as a negative thing - like he was frustrated by it. I didn't get a vibe that he was complaining about the other guys restricting his songwriting. It's just something you do when you're in a band, IF you do sophisticated demos.

Of course this is a bit strange when you think about the interview with Don F that I've kept bringing up, from the OOTN era. He said there that the best songs happen when the band writes them together (I think that was an exaggeration, by the way. I think he was just proud that he had written the bass part for the title track). He said that someone comes up with a couple of chords, or a piece of melody, or a couple of words and then the band writes the song together. And the exceptions to the group writing are when he works with one of the guys - like with Randy on TMH and with Don F on Visions.

So the songwriting style changed quickly. On OOTN the band basically wrote the actual songs together. On HC Don was doing demos, writing even the other guys' parts!

Someone said that Don can't make a hard rock album with vocals, because of his voice. Maybe he could do what Mike Rutherford did. He sang on one of his solo albums early on, but then he decided to do a solo album with different people singing on different songs. For marketing reasons the project of course became a band - Mike & The Mechanics. And it was successful. Don could use different, carefully chosen singers for different songs and call the project something like Don & The Dentists.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Or different guest singers on each song, Carlos Santana did that a while back and he does have a good, strong voice. That makes it hard to tour, though.

I got the impression that when it came to song writing, the guys would bring ideas to whole band, then they'd work on them together. Or, usually lyrics, a melody, and a chord progression and they'd all work on filling in the rest.

[Funk 50]

Well the "Don And The Dentists" act almost happened in the early nineties with "Mechanics" vocalist Paul Carrack, and Timothy B.. Maybe the late, Jim Capaldi involved too.

With the demise of the record companies, side projects are popping up all the time. I hope Don (F) latches on to one.

Talking, about an instrumental album, I'm surprised that Don hasn't yet produced an instrumental track, despite Glenn and Don commenting that a lot of Felder's instrumental demos didn't leave any room for vocals.

The intros to One Of These Nights and Victim Of Love show he's certainly capable.

Are there any other instrumental Felder pieces that differ from the main chord progression of the song?

[chaim]

Well the "Don And The Dentists" act almost happened in the early nineties with "Mechanics" vocalist Paul Carrack, and Timothy B.. Maybe the late, Jim Capaldi involved too.

With the demise of the record companies, side projects are popping up all the time. I hope Don (F) latches on to one.

Talking, about an instrumental album, I'm surprised that Don hasn't yet produced an instrumental track, despite Glenn and Don commenting that a lot of Felder's instrumental demos didn't leave any room for vocals.

The intros to One Of These Nights and Victim Of Love show he's certainly capable.

Are there any other instrumental Felder pieces that differ from the main chord progression of the song?

Are you referring to OOTN and VOF? Those intros are based on the chord progression in those songs. But they are great nonetheless.

[UndertheWire]

Or different guest singers on each song, Carlos Santana did that a while back and he does have a good, strong voice. That makes it hard to tour, though.

I was thinking of that, too. Supernatural is a really strong album but I hadn't realised it was quite so huge - sales of $30m worldwide according to Wikipedia. If you look at the writing credits, Carlos Santana didn't write many of the songs so it may have been more of a case of inviting different artists to bring along their songs and record with Santana rather to play on his songs. Although that might work musically for Don Felder, he doesn't have the name recognition and distinctive style of Santana.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

It occurs to me that I've not listened to Supernatural in a long time, maybe I should do that now.

You have a point, UTW, about Santana's approach and the songs that were brought to him.

I've been thinking about his for a while now, when the Eagles 'stopped' back in 1980, why did Felder decide to go solo? I suppose I can see why he tried going solo with Airborne, but when that didn't work out, why didn't he join another band, or form another band? It's what Jimmy Page did when Zep decided to not continue after Bonham died. Even a band where he shared vocals with someone would have worked. With his rare talent on guitar, he could have been successful.

[Brooke]

It occurs to me that I've not listened to Supernatural in a long time, maybe I should do that now.

You have a point, UTW, about Santana's approach and the songs that were brought to him.

I've been thinking about his for a while now, when the Eagles 'stopped' back in 1980, why did Felder decide to go solo? I suppose I can see why he tried going solo with Airborne, but when that didn't work out, why didn't he join another band, or form another band? It's what Jimmy Page did when Zep decided to not continue after Bonham died. Even a band where he shared vocals with someone would have worked. With his rare talent on guitar, he could have been successful.

That's a very good point, VA. I wonder too why he didn't do anything after Airborne. What did he do all that time?

[UndertheWire]

I've been thinking about his for a while now, when the Eagles 'stopped' back in 1980, why did Felder decide to go solo? I suppose I can see why he tried going solo with Airborne, but when that didn't work out, why didn't he join another band, or form another band? It's what Jimmy Page did when Zep decided to not continue after Bonham died. Even a band where he shared vocals with someone would have worked. With his rare talent on guitar, he could have been successful.
I think he covers that in the book. As part of repairing his marriage and making the family his priority, he decided that he wouldn't tour and he turned down offers from friends because of this. That would limit his options considerably. Apart from that, there may be some clues in his description of making Airborne. He was finally able to do what he wanted to do rather than fit in with others. Maybe he wasn't ready to make compromises with the members of a new band. He was also hoping that the Eagles would come back together (he says this in a 1983 interview). Then something happened in the mid-eighties and he seems to have given up music altogether in favour of being a realator (he mentions Susan's health scare and his own depression).

[chaim]

That's a very good point, VA. I wonder too why he didn't do anything after Airborne. What did he do all that time?

Indeed. And "he was with his family" is not a great answer. We're talking about 15 years or something. It's not totally unheard of that people who have families also go to work.

[MaryCalifornia]

I read the book but don't own it so I can't go check, but I remember Felder did provide an explanation for his activities in the '80s. I think it was like, he really got into real estate developing, boating and fishing, fending off stalkers, etc...I think the explanation served to demonstrate what a man of the world he is, and how he simply didn't need or didn't care about making music. Like, he could take it or leave it. That was the overall gist. As opposed to someone like Timothy who scraped and clawed for every gig in order to make a living, Felder didn't need to do that. I think that's the impression he is trying to give.

[MaryCalifornia]

Having said that, I think it's perfectly acceptable to take a break from the music/entertainment industry to get healthy and get some perspective, and frankly I'm surprised more artists don't do just that. I think Felder would have had plenty of opportunities to continue making music, he obviously just didn't want to. It's an ugly business. 15 years is a long time, though! I'm talking like, 3 years...

[chaim]

I can understand that. The only thing that bothers me here is that this is the same person who once kept repeating that for his ex-bosses it's all about money, while for him it's all about the love of music. The amount of music we have heard from him doesn't support that.

[Funk 50]

I'm pretty sure that Airborne was a contractual obligation album. All the Eagles did one.

Beyond Airborne it does question Felders comments about the love of making money, against the love of making music.

Felder stopped making music. The others couldn't.

[UndertheWire]

Going from the book (and that's what this thread is about), Felder has always been concerned with money. There are examples throughout where he's counting the pennies and worrying about the extravagance of others. He even brought money into the on-stage argument with Glenn at Long Beach. From all this, I think there may be some truth to claims from other band members that Felder was always complaining about money.

Because the lawsuits were settled, we don't even know how much truth there was in his allegations of fiscal wrong doings.

Something else I've just read quoted from a 1991 interview with Azoff in which he said that Henley was motivated to get the Eagles back together in part to help out Schmit and Felder who were struggling financially. There's no hint of that in Felder's book. In interviews with Frey from 1992 he said he felt that apart from Henley, the others were only interested in the reunion for the money.

This is all background for the negotiations for the reunion. Felder had been retired from the music business for ten years but expected to come back on equal terms with those who had continued to work and achieved some success.

[MaryCalifornia]

In interviews with Frey from 1992 he said he felt that apart from Henley, the others were only interested in the reunion for the money.

That's nice. So his position was that Joe, Tim and Felder could find no pleasure in playing those songs again, with those four guys, in front of all of those people around the world. What was Glenn's interest in a reunion?

[chaim]

I don't think Timothy has ever been overly romantic about his motives in public. (He's been realistic about it in public too, hasn't he?) He has probably never said that he wanted to reunite with the guys ONLY because of money, but I've never heard him repeat the "it's only about music for me" mantra either. I'm pretty sure that Timothy could openly admit that "of course the money is good". He seems like a very honest guy without a strong need to impress anyone with amazingly pure and humble motives. In other words, I think that Timothy sees it as a wonderful job with a wonderful salary. No more, no less.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

None of the Eagles were ever in it for just the music. Bernie felt uncomfortable with it, I think, but he left mostly because he didn't like the direction they were heading in. The others have always been in it for the money as well as the music and other reasons. My gut feel with Timothy, and this opinion lacks facts to back it up, he wanted and needed the money, but he also wanted to be part of the magic that was the Eagles.

In 1992, Glenn didn't want any part of a reunion, and since there was money to be made in a reunion, his hesitation tells me he had other priorities. Don't get me wrong, the money was important to him. As I mentioned with Timothy, all of these guys could have found success with another band and made money. Getting the Eagles back together made them all more money than they would have made elsewhere, but they didn't know that at the time. They wanted to see if they could get the magic back.

I guess what I'm taking a long-winded approach to saying is, they did it for the money, but it wasn't only about the money, and I believe that to be true of all of them.

[chaim]

I guess what I'm taking a long-winded approach to saying is, they did it for the money, but it wasn't only about the money, and I believe that to be true of all of them.

This is probably correct.

[MaryCalifornia]

Precisely. Some of them just had a greater actual NEED for money than others :hilarious:

[Funk 50]

I think the Eagles highly professional work ethic is what set them apart from their peers.

Tim said he was hustling for work after the Eagles broke up and he did do a lot of session work.

Joe's always been in demand, even when he was a wreck. I thought he'd reached rock bottom when he turned up on The Simpsons Sing The Blues LP shortly after playing on the Wilson Phillips hit.

When Joe was asked how much money had he wasted on drugs, he answered, it's not the money, my ex-wives have all my money, it's the time...

Thankfully, Joe seems to have made some time back.

Felder's had a professional attitude to playing guitar since a very early age. Selling guitar lessons. Playing ambient music in Cafes and session work. He was in a few bands before he joined the Eagles but I don't know how or why those bands never lasted or how they broke up.

Joe and Tim come from musical families, so they'd have some idea how to be a professional musician. Joe started off playing chart hits in party bands.

Henley sometimes helped out in his dad's automobile parts shop. "selling automobile parts to people who hadn't got a clue what they wanted" . I think his parents were musical but enthusiastic amateurs rather than professional.

All professional musicians are salesmen (women) to some degree.

I'm not sure about Glenn's, Bernie's or Randy's money/music upbringing, Glenn made After Hours for his parents.

There's plenty of material there for History Of The Eagles II if they want to make it.

[UndertheWire]

Bernie has said he decided at the age of twelve that he would make a living from music and that one of the problems with the bands he was in before the Eagles was there was no money - the Flying Burrito Brothers had already spent the advance they'd received for their second album before he joined. So it's clear he was in it at least partly for the money at the beginning.

Randy would have liked to have been part of the HFO reunion because of the money, if the interviews from that time are anything to go by. His Eagles money may have been running short by them.

Tim was a working musician with two families to support and he hadn't had much time to accumulate wealth during his first run with the Eagles.

Glenn defended his decision to make commercials by saying he had 21 people to support - he clearly saw "Glenn Frey" as a business entity for which he was responsible for generating revenue. As far as musical development, I'd like to know more about his time backing other artists in Detroit. The story I've seen is that many Motown artists didn't have a regular band and would hire cheap local talent to back them and that Glenn was one of these.

[chaim]

Read a couple of bits again. This time this one caught my eye:

One day during rehearsals, we were practicing Glenn's song "The heat is on" with a saxophonist and a keyboard player, who were trying their best make up a horn section. It sounded a little wimpy.
"Hey Glenn", I suggested, "since Jesse's gonna be on the road with us anyway, why not let him play sax on that part too? It won't cost you a cent."
Glenn jumped at the chance, and the next day, Jesse arrived with his instrument.

Does "Glenn jumped at the chance" refer to the "it won't cost you as cent"? If so, is it really the only reason that Glenn allowed Jesse to play - that it didn't cost him anything?

[MaryCalifornia]

I didn't read it that way. I read it as Felder used the cost part as a "no-strings attached" bargaining tool, but the main point was that Glenn did a cool thing to allow Felder's kid to play with the Eagles, which is sort of a big deal I would think. The fact that the kid was already on tour with them, was proficient at his instrument, and had his instrument was probably the biggest factor.

[chaim]

I hope your interpretation is right.

[thelastresort]

Yeah, I read it too that it was more the 'Yeah, that's pretty cool' factor as opposed to saving money that attached Glenn to the idea. I dare say in the grand scheme of Eagles finances having one additional musician on the books for a tour is probably quite unnoticeable.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I don't have the book at the ready to go back and see when this rehearsal was compared to the tour, but I have to say, if money were no object, they'd have had another sax player there already.

It could be a host of other things as well, besides money there's the logistics of adding someone to the tour. If rooms are already booked, as well as transportation, it could be a nightmare to add someone to the list. Plus, finding someone quickly and getting them up to speed on the song and such would not be trivial. Jesse probably already had the sax part memorized.

As well, Glenn may have come to the same conclusion at the same time, or once Felder mentioned it, that another sax player was needed. He would have liked the idea of giving a kid a chance.

[sodascouts]

The "Glenn jumped at the chance" phrasing translates to Glenn seeing an opportunity and eagerly taking it. While what he did was cool for Felder's kid, the implication of the phrasing is that Glenn saw the advantage to himself and seized it. It's a bit less charming way to put it than just saying that Glenn was kind enough to let Felder's son play, especially after the "it won't cost you a cent" bit.

To be fair, I'm used to doing "close readings" of literary rhetorical techniques as part of my job so maybe I'm over-analyzing.

[chaim]

That was the way I read it. Like Don was deliberately putting it in a way that it can be read as "Glenn loved to save money" as well as "Glenn was delighted that there was a sax player so easily available". But I've seen Don make so many negative remarks about Glenn that I may see them even when they aren't there!

[UndertheWire]

Well, the book was written by Felder and says the suggestion that his son worked for free came from him, so whatever his choice of words, it tells us nothing about Glenn's motivation or even whether Felder Jr got paid.

[BTSinAustin]

I just read the book this weekend. I only watched the History of the Eagles part one and two a few weeks ago. I am a life long Eagles fan. I saw them live in 75 in the Cotton Bowl in Dallas at the Stones concert and again in 77ish in Austin after Joe Walsh joined.

My take away from the histories, is just how big a douchebag Glenn Fry turned into. His hatred still shines through all these years later. He ran off 3 members and that seems undeniable. My guess and only my opinion, is it’s rooted in his jealousy over how much more talented Henley turned out to be. He just can’t attack Henley the same way. I always liked Fry best. Henley's voice and music are better but the personality was what i liked. Too bad it was all an act.

Too bad we don’t know how much Felder got in the settlements. I can only hope it is a full 1/3 share. That is what he had coming.

The book was very good in places, his history with Stills, Petty, Allman bros, etc was fascinating.

Let the flaming begin.

[Brooke]

BTS, you might want to go back read this whole thread......it's very enlightening!

[BTSinAustin]

BTS, you might want to go back read this whole thread......it's very enlightening!

I've read maybe 10 pages of posts. I am mainly going from my own observations.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Let the flaming begin.

The flaming goes both ways. At any rate, I've said all I care to say on the matter in the documentary thread as well as this one. We welcome all opinions as long as they abide by the terms and conditions of the board (no flaming of band members and especially other board members being the prime one). I will say, I think I mentioned it in this thread earlier, I've not read a single autobiography where I didn't lose respect for the author after reading it. This was one of those. As for the other band members, when one person sets out to write something with an agenda of making someone else look bad, it's hard for me to give any of it any credibility. Felder has since said that writing the book was cathartic for him, and for him, I'm glad it was. I just feel bad that for him to get over it he had to paint everyone else in a bad light, and leave out the good stuff. Since he's said, many times recently, that he misses the other band members, and would just like to sit down and have a beer with them, it tells me it wasn't as bad as he made it out to be in the book. If it was, he'd be glad to be away from them (if still not pleased at not being in the band).

I guess I had more to say after all. As the saying goes, there are three sides to every story, and probably eight sides to this story. Bernie's, Randy's, Timothy's, Joe's, Henley's, Glenn's, Felder's, and the actual truth.

[AlreadyGone95]

I've been debating whether or not to buy and read this book myself. I've read about 10 pages of this thread, and I have mixed feelings. I think that it would be a good read and it'd be cool to know more about Don Felder, but I don't want my blood pressure going sky high while reading it!

[UndertheWire]

I've been debating whether or not to buy and read this book myself. I've read about 10 pages of this thread, and I have mixed feelings. I think that it would be a good read and it'd be cool to know more about Don Felder, but I don't want my blood pressure going sky high while reading it!
I felt like I had to read it so I could make up my own mind. Unfortunately, afterwards I thought worse of everyone. With autobiographies, I usually find myself empathising with the writer, but not in this case. There are uncomfortable stories about people, particularly Glenn, and there's little doubt that there's truth in them, but to me it seems that Don is blind to his own faults and failings and always looks to put the blame onto someone else. I don't wish that I hadn't read it, but I do wish there were other books by band members and insiders to help me sort it out in my mind.

[AlreadyGone95]

I felt like I had to read it so I could make up my own mind. Unfortunately, afterwards I thought worse of everyone. With autobiographies, I usually find myself empathising with the writer, but not in this case. There are uncomfortable stories about people, particularly Glenn, and there's little doubt that there's truth in them, but to me it seems that Don is blind to his own faults and failings and always looks to put the blame onto someone else. I don't wish that I hadn't read it, but I do wish there were other books by band members and insiders to help me sort it out in my mind.

That's how I feel. I think that I will buy it when I can (hopefully next week off of Amazon). I'll just remind myself to take some of the stories with a huge grain of salt!

[sodascouts]

My take away from the histories, is just how big a douchebag Glenn Fry turned into. His hatred still shines through all these years later. Don Felder writes an entire book with large sections dissing Glenn. Glenn spends a few minutes on a documentary criticizing Felder, keeping silent about Felder in every other interview he has ever done except one. Meanwhile, Felder has talked about Glenn often in his interviews.

GLENN'S hatred is what shines through to you?

I must add that it's strange how someone who claims to have been a huge fan of Glenn can't even correctly spell his name.

PS Around here, we don't go around calling band members "douchebags." If you want to keep posting here, refrain from juvenile name-calling. You can be critical without stooping to that.

[thelastresort]

My guess and only my opinion, is it’s rooted in his jealousy over how much more talented Henley turned out to be.

I prefer Henley to Frey but if I was honest I would say Glenn is on parity or better in a number of regards - he can play more instruments (and consummately at that), he does a lot of production and other technical work (see his credits on the Farewell 1 DVD; his orchestration on Long Road Out of Eden; and his nickname 'The Lone Arranger'), and has proven time and again he can write songs alone - I believe in all of his forty-fifty years Henley has managed that once. Henley was more successful in his solo endevours, but Glenn also embarked upon an acting career.

Glenn may not be the sort of person you'd like to sit down and have a beer with, and I believe some of the criticism levied against him is justified, but there is no-one I could think of I'd want to lead my band more. He's got the perfect mix of being a ferocious leader but also shrewd enough to know what's best for the band (see Henley dominating 1976-80).

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Glenn may not be the sort of person you'd like to sit down and have a beer with, and I believe some of the criticism levied against him is justified, but there is no-one I could think of I'd want to lead my band more. He's got the perfect mix of being a ferocious leader but also shrewd enough to know what's best for the band (see Henley dominating 1976-80).

If you change 'beer' to 'drink', I'd have to say I would!! I'd even buy!

[L101]

I prefer Henley to Frey but if I was honest I would say Glenn is on parity or better in a number of regards - he can play more instruments (and consummately at that), he does a lot of production and other technical work (see his credits on the Farewell 1 DVD; his orchestration on Long Road Out of Eden; and his nickname 'The Lone Arranger'), and has proven time and again he can write songs alone - I believe in all of his forty-fifty years Henley has managed that once. Henley was more successful in his solo endevours, but Glenn also embarked upon an acting career.

Glenn may not be the sort of person you'd like to sit down and have a beer with, and I believe some of the criticism levied against him is justified, but there is no-one I could think of I'd want to lead my band more. He's got the perfect mix of being a ferocious leader but also shrewd enough to know what's best for the band (see Henley dominating 1976-80).

I do agree with you with what you said about Glenn above, I'd even have a beer with him :grin: but Don has said several times that he prefers to write songs etc with other people, its just how he likes to work.

But I don't understand/recall the bit you wrote that I've put in bold - can you expand on it a bit more for me ?? I'm feeling a bit thick here :grin:

[UndertheWire]

I'll take that drink. There's plenty of evidence that Glenn can be friendly, funny and fun with people he doesn't know well. I'd just be wary of going into business with him. I wouldn't want Don Felder as a friend because I'd be wondering what slights he was storing away for future use. I don't know what to think of Don Henley.

[sodascouts]

Glenn willingly stepped back and allowed Henley to dominate 1976-1980 vocally - to this day Glenn calls Henley the better singer (although I disagree). These are hardly the actions of a man driven by jealousy and resentment.

It seems BtS' theory about Glenn's motivations is not exactly well-supported by facts.

[AlreadyGone95]

I'd take the drink as well(though it'd have to be nonalcoholic because I won't be able to legally drink for another year! )

I understand that none of the guys are saints, but from what I've read here on the forum and on GFO, Glenn seems like an overall nice guy.

[BTSinAustin]

I've been debating whether or not to buy and read this book myself. I've read about 10 pages of this thread, and I have mixed feelings. I think that it would be a good read and it'd be cool to know more about Don Felder, but I don't want my blood pressure going sky high while reading it!

Read it, it's a fast one and how bad can it be? Never be afraid of ideas you don't believe in.

[L101]

Glenn willingly stepped back and allowed Henley to dominate 1976-1980 vocally - to this day Glenn calls Henley the better singer (although I disagree). These are hardly the actions of a man driven by jealousy and resentment.

It seems BtS' theory about Glenn's motivations is not exactly well-supported by facts.

Thanks Soda, I thought it was that but wasn't sure. Definitely not the actions of someone driven by jealousy and resentment.....

BTW, I think Don is the better singer (ducks and runs away....) :hilarious:

[thelastresort]

I'm sure all of us on here would love a beer (or wine, or spirit, or cider etc ;)) with Glenn, I meant more in general if you took what you saw on HOTE and from Felder's mouth without looking deeper into the matter, which I presume a lot of Glenn haters do not.



But I don't understand/recall the bit you wrote that I've put in bold - can you expand on it a bit more for me ?? I'm feeling a bit thick here :grin:

As Soda says (and Glenn does on the doc), he willingly let Don do the majority of leads on HC and The Long Run as he deemed him to be the better vocalist - what's best for the band, and all that.

If we look at the Eagles album, of 10 songs, Glenn does 3 leads, Don 2. If we look at Hotel California, of the 8 vocal songs, Glenn sings 1, Don 5.

[BTSinAustin]

Don Felder writes an entire book with large sections dissing Glenn. Glenn spends a few minutes on a documentary criticizing Felder, keeping silent about Felder in every other interview he has ever done except one. Meanwhile, Felder has talked about Glenn often in his interviews.

GLENN'S hatred is what shines through to you?

Oh yes it does, you can hear the bile in his voice when he talks about Don Felder. The man has anger issues. I am not however saying Frey has all the blame. There are always two sides. Also I will point out the majority of the reactions on the net I have seen (besides here) agree with me. That Frey came off looking very very bad without even knowing it.

An example was in part two when Frey said something like "The only way I'll do this is if Don Henley and I make more money than everyone else".

That was quite telling.


I must add that it's strange how someone who claims to have been a huge fan of Glenn can't even correctly spell his name.


I do not recall saying I was a huge fan of Frey. And a typo, come on, is this "that type" of forum?


PS Around here, we don't go around calling band members "douchebags." If you want to keep posting here, refrain from juvenile name-calling. You can be critical without stooping to that.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. But i have seen some very inflammatory words about Felder in this very thread. I do of course recognize I am a newbie here but far from a newbie otherwise. If this site is just devoted to praising and worshipping "the gods" I am in the wrong place.

[Funk 50]

I wont buy Felder's book. The Eagles made him all his money and fame. The Eagles fans bought his book and have apparently, made it a best seller.

You'd think he'd have universally positive things to say about his time in the band.

And if he's going to tell us all about his dirt road beginnings, Tom Petty, Stephen Stills, The Allman Brothers and all the rest of it, why is the book subtitled "My Life In The Eagles". Did having the words "The Eagles" on the front cover put a few zeros on his earnings?

I congratulate the Eagles for putting up with Felder for so long. Tom Petty, Stephen Stills, Bernie Leadon et al, obviously couldn't.

Thanks for lighting the blue touch paper BTSinAustin. You can't have a go at Glenn without causing uproar here. :)

[NightMistBlue]

Heck yeah, I'm a hard-core Randy fan but even I have to admit that Glenn seems very charming* and is definitely mega-talented. I love his singing voice and wish he had not decided the Eagles have one voice - to me and many, what's great about the band is that all the guys can sing (and play and write, etc.).

I wasn't polarized by Felder's book into either camp. I don't know any of these guys, so I took it all with a grain of salt. What I came away with mostly was Felder's discipline to his craft - you really saw his journey as a musician, over many years and a lot of dedication.

*His humor even comes across in Felder's book. I laughed out loud (though I felt guilty about it immediately) when Don F. learns he's been fired and is so upset he calls Frey's studio. Glenn answers Felder's tears with the pitiless, "Try to find higher ground on this, Felder." Can't you just hear Glenn saying it? I can. :)

[VAisForEagleLovers]

NMB, I like that Glenn didn't take the coward's way out as some others may have, he took the call. Even feeling the way he did, that couldn't have been easy for him, and I seriously doubt the decision to fire him was an easy one. It wasn't a knee jerk reaction. I feel very strongly that if Glenn had felt keeping Felder in the band was the best thing for the band, and not himself personally, he'd have kept him in the band. Of course, he'd have likely quit himself, then not long afterwards.

F50, we do have a larger amount of 'Glenn fans' here than others, but I prefer to think of myself, anyway, first and foremost a fan of the Eagles, past and present. As such, I see the firing of Felder as the only possible way the Eagles could have stayed together and given us the last 14 years of wonderful music. Sometimes, there just isn't room for compromise, and since we're all human, it's impossible to get along with or work with everyone.

I wish the absolute best for Felder, and of course I wish things could have been different. They weren't so here we are...

[NOLA]

I bought Don F.'s book for one reason, and that was to read his personal history. The main thing that bothered me about the HOTE doc was the lack of origins stories on the other band members besides Glenn and Don H., so I really enjoyed Don F.'s narrative about his life pre-Eagles. The tumultuous relationship between him and his father really shaped the course of his life.

As for the legendary fights, disagreements, and breakups, I feel it's old news. His explanations were another version of the same story. I would like to believe that we, as a collective of Eagles fans in 2015, are well aware of what happened in the past between the other guys. OTOH, it was entertaining to read and often bordered on tabloid sensationalism. But, considering it was written by an entertainer, I'd be disappointed with anything else.

Anyway, it's just my two cents worth. No harm, no foul.

[Freypower]

Heck yeah, I'm a hard-core Randy fan but even I have to admit that Glenn seems very charming* and is definitely mega-talented. I love his singing voice and wish he had not decided the Eagles have one voice - to me and many, what's great about the band is that all the guys can sing (and play and write, etc.).

I wasn't polarized by Felder's book into either camp. I don't know any of these guys, so I took it all with a grain of salt. What I came away with mostly was Felder's discipline to his craft - you really saw his journey as a musician, over many years and a lot of dedication.

*His humor even comes across in Felder's book. I laughed out loud (though I felt guilty about it immediately) when Don F. learns he's been fired and is so upset he calls Frey's studio. Glenn answers Felder's tears with the pitiless, "Try to find higher ground on this, Felder." Can't you just hear Glenn saying it? I can. :)

He didn't decide that entirely. Lyin' Eyes, New Kid In Town, Heartache Tonight. One song per album, true, but in my view they were the best tracks.

I'm not going to respond to the other stuff because I am so tired of people coming here claiming they are huge Eagles fans but they hate Glenn Frey so much they refuse to even spell his name correctly. I can't change their minds so it's best to leave it.

[BTSinAustin]

He didn't decide that entirely. Lyin' Eyes, New Kid In Town, Heartache Tonight. One song per album, true, but in my view they were the best tracks.

I'm not going to respond to the other stuff because I am so tired of people coming here claiming they are huge Eagles fans but they hate Glenn Frey so much they refuse to even spell his name correctly. I can't change their minds so it's best to leave it.

Ok, you win, if you are going to get all butt hurt that someone calls your hero out on being a douchebag, then just delete my account now.

And dude, calling him Glenn like you are old pals is just sad. Go out and get a life

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Ok, you win, if you are going to get all butt hurt that someone calls your hero out on being a douchebag, then just delete my account now.

And dude, calling him Glenn like you are old pals is just sad. Go out and get a life

Yes, calling him douchebag is so much more appropriate! You are entitled to your opinion, but we've had a lot of problems with trolls who show up just to cause trouble and don't even know anything about the band. They move from message board to message board on any subject for just that purpose, going into threads looking for controversial subjects and repeat the most inflammatory. So please excuse us if your misspelling of Glenn's last name (more than once, so not a typo) has us suspicious. If you are legitimate, then please stick around and feel free to discuss your opinions without vulgar language. Also, your comment that you only read the first few pages is another alarm bell, as I just mentioned it's typical troll behavior. It is hard to believe that people do this with what time they have, but I've seen plenty.

ETA: My hero, by the way, is Roberto Clemente. Everyone else is just human. Also, several on this board have been asked, by him, to call him Glenn.

[AlreadyGone95]

I use his first name because, to me, saying "(mr.) Frey seems like a nice guy" just doesn't sound right. It sounds too formal.(and I wasn't raised to be formal). However, if I ever met him, I'd call him Mr. Frey,out of respect, unless told otherwise.

ETA: by too formal, I mean that,to me, it sounds like I'm talking about an old school teacher or something.

[sodascouts]

I have to say, I've never seen someone have a problem with fans calling rock stars by their first names before, and I've been posting on message boards for 20 years (if you count AOL forums)! At least it's creative trolling. ;)

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I have to say, I've never seen someone have a problem with fans calling rock stars by their first names before, and I've been posting on message boards for 20 years (if you count AOL)! At least it's creative trolling. ;)

You know, I'm just not sure we can count AOL!! :hilarious:

[sodascouts]

You know, I'm just not sure we can count AOL!! :hilarious:

I went back and edited my post to include "forum" - AOL used to host fan forums back in the day. As a young'un, I was thrilled to find a place to post my thoughts on General Hospital. It was my introduction to fan forums on the internet. We quite regularly referred to actors/actresses by their first names there, too (SHOCK HORROR).

But I digress.

Back to music forums. I'm visualizing going to the Fleetwood Mac forums and insisting everyone refer to Stevie as "Ms. Nicks" since we're not her close personal friends, and that anyone who calls her "Stevie" is a loser with no life. That would go over REAL well. :lol:

[AlreadyGone95]

:rofl:
Soda, I'm picturing that scenario, and it's not very pretty. I'm sure that the reaction to "Mr. Buckingham" would be almost as bad. :lol:

[chaim]

It's funny how people keep bashing Glenn (especially people who are not huge Eagles fans), yet TO THIS DAY I haven't heard one Glenn story that has made me go, "Oh, what an awful person". I would like to hear some examples for a change. The shocking "I'll tell you when" incident mentioned in Don's book isn't enough to make Glenn a bad person. Don may have felt offended, and he may still feel offended, but people do say stuff like that to each other - not just Glenn. Especially if they are busy or under stress. The fact that Don told those kind of stories about Glenn in his book tells me that there are not that many horrible stories about him to tell. I really don't want to fight with anybody, but Glenn's "The only way I'll do this is if Don Henley and I make more money than everyone else" in the documentary doesn't tell me anything except that he's honest about it.

I don't get this "I certainly wouldn't want to do this or that with him" either. How many people are there even in our workplace we would desperately like to hang out with? Does it make a celebrity a bad person if WE wouldn't care to be friends with him/her? Why SHOULD we want to be friends with people whose music we happen to like?

And yes, on internet forums people use first names of band members. It may be different when a different band is discussed than what the main forum is about. For example, when I'm on the KISS forum, it's "Gene" and "Paul". When I talk about KISS here, I may say "Simmons" and "Stanley". It's the same when I discuss the Eagles on the KISS forum. Glenn is "Frey" and Don is "Henley". Nothing too serious or heavy, you know.

[UndertheWire]

Why SHOULD we want to be friends with people whose music we happen to like?
Nicely put. I don't expect my friends to be good musicians and I wouldn't go looking for a friend in a hugely successful band. What would we talk about?

BTS, if you're still around, I'd be interested in knowing how you came to your conclusions/opinions. I've seen similar statements elsewhere on the internet and haven't been able to ask. I didn't see the hatred, anger and general douchebaggery that you did, so help me understand.

[NightMistBlue]

It's funny how people keep bashing Glenn (especially people who are not huge Eagles fans), yet TO THIS DAY I haven't heard one Glenn story that has made me go, "Oh, what an awful person". I would like to hear some examples for a change.

I came across something that made me cringe when I was searching for info on the hilltop house where Don and Glenn wrote so many great Eagles songs. I don't even know if it's true or accurate; it's supposedly a quote from something called "A Made Man in the Mellow Mafia."

Glenn: We used to climb that tower every night. It used to be off-limits 'cause some drunk roadie fell off. He went right down the middle, smacking his head on every beam, man. I hear it doesn't hurt after the first couple though. Autopsy said he had one beer.

Don: A pussy.

Glenn: Well, yeah.

Don: Anyway. That's how we came up with "The Last Resort."

I got it from a forum where people apparently gather to discuss their hatred of the Eagles, so again I take it with a huge grain of salt.
http://ec2-184-73-174-86.compute-1.amazonaws.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=97414&bookmarkedmessageid=4592206

[UndertheWire]

I don't think that's for real. Different posters contributed different lines of it. It's quite funny, though.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I feel like I need to say this. F50 made a comment along the lines that it's never good to come here and bash Glenn. It's not like I can deny that, but the same holds true if someone comes here and bashes any other member of the band. Especially a new user, as motives are always very suspect when a person goes to a fan site and the first thing they do is bash the very people the members of the board are fans of.

[Funk 50]

This is way off topic but I feel the need to add one further comment, addressing VAisForEagleLovers comment.

I was a lurker here for a long, long time before I posted. I felt that I didn't really belong here as I was more of a Walsh fan than an Eagles fan and certainly didn't think I was enough of a Frey fan.

I started posting when I got the impression that the Frey fixation was unintentional and was probably an antidote to the other great Eagles site that leaned towards Henley. I felt that the site was aspiring to be a place that fans of all members of the Eagles would be welcomed.

The last few pages shows me that this is still a site that aspires to welcome fans of all the members of Eagles, as long as they don't have a go at Glenn.

I'm quite happy to criticise Felder as he publicly criticises his former band mates, betraying confidences but I think it's different for fans.

I get the impression that a lot of people, probably Eagles fans, who've read Heaven And Hell and viewed The History Of The Eagles documentary have come away with a low opinion of Glenn. If they express that here they get jumped on like a pack of hounds. I'm sure it stops people posting as it did to me. This is a Discussion Thread not an unadulterated praise thread.

I'm not expecting any further posts from BTSinAustin. I'm surprised he or she survived 5 but like UndertheWire I'd be happy to discuss his or her opinion further, otherwise, as one of my favourite posters often says, I shall say no more..... but don't hold me to that.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

This is way off topic but I feel the need to add one further comment, addressing VAisForEagleLovers comment.

I was a lurker here for a long, long time before I posted. I felt that I didn't really belong here as I was more of a Walsh fan than an Eagles fan and certainly didn't think I was enough of a Frey fan.

I started posting when I got the impression that the Frey fixation was unintentional and was probably an antidote to the other great Eagles site that leaned towards Henley. I felt that the site was aspiring to be a place that fans of all members of the Eagles would be welcomed.

The last few pages shows me that this is still a site that aspires to welcome fans of all the members of Eagles, as long as they don't have a go at Glenn.

I'm quite happy to criticise Felder as he publicly criticises his former band mates, betraying confidences but I think it's different for fans.

I get the impression that a lot of people, probably Eagles fans, who've read Heaven And Hell and viewed The History Of The Eagles documentary have come away with a low opinion of Glenn. If they express that here they get jumped on like a pack of hounds. I'm sure it stops people posting as it did to me. This is a Discussion Thread not an unadulterated praise thread.

I'm not expecting any further posts from BTSinAustin. I'm surprised he or she survived 5 but like UndertheWire I'd be happy to discuss his or her opinion further, otherwise, as one of my favourite posters often says, I shall say no more..... but don't hold me to that.

Thank you for that feedback F50. I can't speak for others who may or may not be Glenn-fans, but for myself, I do have an issue with people whose first post is so very negative, and not just about Glenn. It's against the terms and conditions to flame a member or a band member. Disagreeing in a civil way is fine. I'm hoping most of you haven't seen this, because we try and take care of it quickly, but there have been people who have signed up, flamed a member of the band in their first post, and they get deleted.

It's one thing to be disappointed or even upset with the band and discuss it here. It's another to show up out of nowhere with name calling and accusations towards any of the band members. As UTW said, if you back it up with some kind of discourse on the subject to prove you aren't a troll, then it's OK (as long as the language doesn't get too rough).

F50, I'm glad you decided to stop lurking and join in!

[UndertheWire]

The last few pages shows me that this is still a site that aspires to welcome fans of all the members of Eagles, as long as they don't have a go at Glenn.
Now that is probably true. It's not that (polite) criticism isn't allowed but it will usually provoke a response that might be a bit overwhelming for those who are less keen. I don't know the history, but I believe this (or an earlier forum) was set up for Frey-fans and then expanded to include all the band, much as that other site started with Henley-fans and expanded. It's not surprising that it continues to have quite a concentration of Frey fans - where else would we* go? However, Soda and her team try hard to keep it open to everyone.

* I didn't start off as a Frey fan, but he intrigued me and this seemed to be the best environment to explore that and along the way I've been converted. He doesn't have to be a nice guy so long as he entertains me.

As this is a Felder thread, I'll say that I started off as indifferent to Felder and have viewed him less favourably since reading his book and reading/listening to his interviews. This may be in part a reaction to the pro-Felder/anti-Frey comments I see in many other places.

[BTSinAustin]

Nicely put. I don't expect my friends to be good musicians and I wouldn't go looking for a friend in a hugely successful band. What would we talk about?

BTS, if you're still around, I'd be interested in knowing how you came to your conclusions/opinions. I've seen similar statements elsewhere on the internet and haven't been able to ask. I didn't see the hatred, anger and general douchebaggery that you did, so help me understand.



Since many here has already convicted me of being a troll this will do no good but you asked nicely so here goes.

I’ve been a fan since the beginning. Saw them twice, once pre Walsh era and once after he came on board. I always loved Joe Walsh’s music and “So What” is in my top 5 70’s albums. In fact I re-bought it a few weeks ago. Anyway, like most people in the early days I never really knew much about the band. I liked Frey’s singing and song selection better early on. As the years went on I liked more of Henley’s. I didn’t even know who was who; I based that on the sound, not the person. They did a good job of obscurity. As Felder pointed out it was pretty cool to come back from a world tour and walk down the street and not be noticed.


After the break up I started to see Frey pop up on TV (Miami Vice anyone?) and of course it was hard to ignore Henley. His solo work was outstanding. I wore out a cassette of End of the Innocence in my traveling days.

So now to answer your question: I had zero pre-conceived ideas about anyone in the Eagles except Joe Walsh and Henley for their solo work. When I watched the History Part One I started to see a trend, every time there was a personal issue Frey seemed to be in the middle of it. When he would talk about them, it was always with an underlying contempt. Unless it was about Felder then it was open contempt. When others talked about Frey’s role in the battles it would with sadness, his was with what I saw as arrogance and contempt. Then in Part Two, it was the same only worse. Then him saying the only way he would participate in a reunion was if he and Henley made way more money than the rest. Since they were the ones out keeping the Eagles name alive, that made me laugh. Henley yes, but I hadn’t heard Frey’s name since his failed acting career. I could only name 2 of his solo songs, and one of them I was wrong about, up until today I thought he did Heavy Metal. What really kept the name alive though was classic rock radio. He just came off to me as a smug, arrogant, hateful man.

Back to the topic of the book. Felder just seemed sad and sorry for how it all went down. Since none of us were there at any time, all we can do is go with his word against theirs. You and I will never have a clue what really went down in private. We do know that he was a 1/3 surviving partner in Eagles LTD and it seems he got a huge settlement based estimates of his net worth at 70 million, same as Frey. Fair is fair. He still gets Eagles income based on him saying his Ex gets half of that.


Henley seems to have dirty hands in all this too but Irving Azoff came off to me as the biggest villain. If what Felder says is true he should have sued the pants off of him. Azoff should have acted on behalf of all Eagles. It seems he betrayed everyone but the Gods.

I’ve been around forums for enough years to know that most of what I said will be overlooked by many and snippets will be used to say… “See he is a troll”. Binary thinkers are like that, black and white with no shades of gray.

I have now said every possible thing I can think of to say about the Eagles except one. You guys here must be truly obsessed. No offense meant. I’ve had 5 posts and am talked out. I see some of you have 5, 10, 20K posts. Wow. The one thing left to say is I wish I could put the cat back in the bag. It really ruined my enjoyment of fantastic music.


Side note, if you have Prime, you can buy CDs on Amazon with free shipping and get the MP3 downloads, cheaper than you can buy just the MP3. Example, you can get “Eagles, The Studio Albums 1972-1979” for $47.97 MP3 or buy the CD Prime version for $31.26 that includes the MP3. Makes no sense but try it. http://www.amazon.com/Eagles-Studio-Albums-1972-1979/dp/B00B7VPKMY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435690074&sr=8-2&keywords=the+eagles “So What” cost me $4.99

[UndertheWire]

BTS, thank you for coming back and explaining yourself. Put like that, I can understand where you're coming from and if I see the documentary again, I can look at those aspects.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

BTS, I have to say, if you'd have put even half of this in your first post, I wouldn't have thought you a troll.

Please don't let the documentary, the book, or even your experience here ruin your enjoyment of fantastic music!! For one, none of us have all the facts, and two, I hate to say it, but the things that went down between Felder and 'the gods' is really nothing compared to what has gone down in other bands. Perhaps it's what happens when you get all those creative personalities together. I am a binary thinker, it's why I'm in software. I'm very comfortable with 1 and 0, on and off. You can have a whole team of us and we don't have 'creative tensions'! In the end, I'm sure all seven of the Eagles, past and present would all agree on this: it's about the songs. If you like them, enjoy them.

As for Prime, I keep thinking I'll sign up for it and never do. Perhaps it's time to look into it more seriously.

[BTSinAustin]

I get the impression that a lot of people, probably Eagles fans, who've read Heaven And Hell and viewed The History Of The Eagles documentary have come away with a low opinion of Glenn. If they express that here they get jumped on like a pack of hounds. I'm sure it stops people posting as it did to me. This is a Discussion Thread not an unadulterated praise thread.


As accused I didn't read 90 pages in this thread before I posted, no one would have, but the reaction around the net is overwhelmingly anti Frey and I was amazed at the reaction here and wondered if people saw the same video I did.

To tell the truth, I came away from the History 1&2 and Felder's book saddened.




I'm not expecting any further posts from BTSinAustin. I'm surprised he or she survived 5 but like UndertheWire I'd be happy to discuss his or her opinion further, otherwise, as one of my favourite posters often says, I shall say no more..... but don't hold me to that.

I am way thicker skinned than that. I will refrain from calling anyone a douchebag and am quite willing to debate or discuss my opinions. I will however ignore blatantly binary judgements.

And BTW, it's "he"

[chaim]

I'm a Glenn...sorry, Frey fan (8) ), but personally I don't mind people criticizing him. Often I just don't agree. But it seems to me that people criticizing Felder usually just criticize his words or actions, while people "criticizing" Frey call him names. I'm not necessarily referring to this forum, although the "douchebag" is quickly becoming a classic. There are hundreds if not thousands of people "out there" who hate Frey so much that they constantly call him names. Most of the time they don't mention any examples, or they just automatically take Felder's word as the ultimate truth.

That's interesting, BTSinAustin. I didn't see any contempt there when Glenn spoke about Randy or Bernie. I never have.

[BTSinAustin]

BTS, thank you for coming back and explaining yourself. Put like that, I can understand where you're coming from and if I see the documentary again, I can look at those aspects.

It's on Netflix and thanks

[BTSinAustin]

BTS, I have to say, if you'd have put even half of this in your first post, I wouldn't have thought you a troll.

Please don't let the documentary, the book, or even your experience here ruin your enjoyment of fantastic music!! For one, none of us have all the facts, and two, I hate to say it, but the things that went down between Felder and 'the gods' is really nothing compared to what has gone down in other bands. Perhaps it's what happens when you get all those creative personalities together. I am a binary thinker, it's why I'm in software. I'm very comfortable with 1 and 0, on and off. You can have a whole team of us and we don't have 'creative tensions'! In the end, I'm sure all seven of the Eagles, past and present would all agree on this: it's about the songs. If you like them, enjoy them.

As for Prime, I keep thinking I'll sign up for it and never do. Perhaps it's time to look into it more seriously.

Fair enough. I was pretty abrasive.

I'm a programmer too. My company does data consulting.

I am a fiend for Amazon. It blows me away that I can get a CD with free shipping and download the MP3s for cheaper. My guess is the profit on MP3s alone is slim. Look at this one.

Eagles : The Very Best Of (2CD)
MP3=$24.99
CD=$13.00


http://www.amazon.com/Eagles-Very-Best-2CD-EAGLES/dp/B0000CD5FR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435695451&sr=8-1&keywords=the+eagles

[BTSinAustin]

I'm a Glenn...sorry, Frey fan (8) ), but personally I don't mind people criticizing him. Often I just don't agree. But it seems to me that people criticizing Felder usually just criticize his words or actions, while people "criticizing" Frey call him names. I'm not necessarily referring to this forum, although the "douchebag" is quickly becoming a classic. There are hundereds if not thousands of people "out there" who hate Frey so much that they constantly call him names. Most of the time they don't mention any examples, or they just automatically take Felder's word as the ultimate truth.

LOL. call me Glenn. err him Glenn

I don't hate him but I think greed got into his head. With Henley I think the greed is a factor but mainly he is a crazy perfectionist. Drove them all nuts. The other Beatles said the same about Mccartney.

[Jonny Come Lately]

Can I just say I hope you stick around on here BTS. I'm sure you would be able to contribute plenty to a lot of the discussions, and I'd be interested to hear your views on things like which albums or songs you like best, for instance.

Regarding Felder's book and the documentary I personally try to see both sides of the argument although in I am not someone who is especially bothered about whether band members are nice people or not. The Eagles are rock musicians and many of the most legendary performers in this field are infamous for being difficult to work with (Bob Dylan, John Lennon and Roger Waters spring readily to mind) and although Henley, Frey and Felder certainly have their differences they wrote some brilliant music, and that matters much more to me.

I can probably best explain my thoughts on this subject by borrowing one of my favourite Eagles lyrics, 'Someone show me how to tell the dancer from the dance'. Having said this I personally thought Bernie came across very well in the HOTE documentary. He seemed like a guy who was content with his lot in life and it was mature of him to admit he wasn't proud of pouring the beer over Glenn.

I must admit given the choice between Don Henley and Glenn Frey I would probably prefer to have a drink with Glenn, I just suspect he'd be more entertaining company. Having said this as a person I think I definitely have more in common with Don (I'm less outgoing and somewhat cynical about celebrity, social media and things like that).

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Fair enough. I was pretty abrasive.

I'm a programmer too. My company does data consulting.

I am a fiend for Amazon. It blows me away that I can get a CD with free shipping and download the MP3s for cheaper. My guess is the profit on MP3s alone is slim. Look at this one.

Eagles : The Very Best Of (2CD)
MP3=$24.99
CD=$13.00


http://www.amazon.com/Eagles-Very-Best-2CD-EAGLES/dp/B0000CD5FR/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435695451&sr=8-1&keywords=the+eagles

Ah, so perhaps you tend to think in binary, too? I've moved on from programming to business analysis and, gasp, management.

I have everything done by the Eagles, but I do actually like other bands as well :wink: I gave my copy of Seger's new album to a friend, so I need to get it again. Perhaps I'll give it a try.

I am jealous that you got to see the Eagles "back in the day". That had to be pretty awesome. Did you follow along in the media back then about all the tensions between them? I remember the DJs on the radio station I listened to out of Pittsburgh, probably WDVE, talking about it for years before they broke up.

[BTSinAustin]

Ah, so perhaps you tend to think in binary, too? I've moved on from programming to business analysis and, gasp, management.

I have everything done by the Eagles, but I do actually like other bands as well :wink: I gave my copy of Seger's new album to a friend, so I need to get it again. Perhaps I'll give it a try.

I am jealous that you got to see the Eagles "back in the day". That had to be pretty awesome. Did you follow along in the media back then about all the tensions between them? I remember the DJs on the radio station I listened to out of Pittsburgh, probably WDVE, talking about it for years before they broke up.

Yes i too am in management. I own the company and have 4 developers.

The 7/6/75 show in dallas was amazing. I was off course there to see the stones. That was the day after Keith Richards arrest in Arkansas, he almost missed the show. (IF you have not read the book "Life", do it now) I was 17 and in love with the new found freedom. Me and a couple of buddies road our motorcycles to Dallas for the show. The day before, the 5th of July we went to 6 flags over texas. On the marquee as we pulled in the sign said, "Tonight, Chuck Berry, 2 shows". We hung around for that of course. Killer show, classic Check Berry.

My main memory of the Eagles was the opening number... "take it easy", those bright acoustic guitars, the wind and the sun, it was amazing.

The stones rocked of course, we were about 20 feet from the stage, we pulled the classic "douchebag" trick of tailgating an EMS crew with a stretcher and ended up at the front. The highlight of that show was the 2 acoustic numbers, Angie and Wild Horses as the sun was going down. You could have heard a pin drop. That was Ronnie Woods first tour.

http://rockinhouston.com/images/00953-s-9abg5nsxl1060jpg/2887?type=performers&subtype=Years&typeUnid=287&page=1

[BTSinAustin]

Can I just say I hope you stick around on here BTS. I'm sure you would be able to contribute plenty to a lot of the discussions, and I'd be interested to hear your views on things like which albums or songs you like best, for instance.

Regarding Felder's book and the documentary I personally try to see both sides of the argument although in I am not someone who is especially bothered about whether band members are nice people or not. The Eagles are rock musicians and many of the most legendary performers in this field are infamous for being difficult to work with (Bob Dylan, John Lennon and Roger Waters spring readily to mind) and although Henley, Frey and Felder certainly have their differences they wrote some brilliant music, and that matters much more to me.

I can probably best explain my thoughts on this subject by borrowing one of my favourite Eagles lyrics, 'Someone show me how to tell the dancer from the dance'. Having said this I personally thought Bernie came across very well in the HOTE documentary. He seemed like a guy who was content with his lot in life and it was mature of him to admit he wasn't proud of pouring the beer over Glenn.

I must admit given the choice between Don Henley and Glenn Frey I would probably prefer to have a drink with Glenn, I just suspect he'd be more entertaining company. Having said this as a person I think I definitely have more in common with Don (I'm less outgoing and somewhat cynical about celebrity, social media and things like that).



Agree, there are many prima donnas in rock. Hell in life... Roger Waters is a prime example. I heard him interviewed and never liked him again.

Favorite Eagles songs off the top of my head

Desperado (makes me cry, reminds me way too much of my brother who died in 82)
Tequila Sunrise
Already Gone
You never Cry like a lover
Peaceful Easy Feeling
Take it Easy
Those Shoes
Get over it
Best of my Love
In the City

I am all alone in the following opinion but Hotel California is not on my list. It always annoyed me for some reason. The vocals, not the music. The guitars are amazing.

EDIT: I just listened to three versions of HC and I take it all back.

[sodascouts]

the reaction around the net is overwhelmingly anti Frey and I was amazed at the reaction here and wondered if people saw the same video I did.

Probably the fact that this is an Eagles fan forum had something to do with us being more positive than the comments sections of various websites, which are infamous for their vitriol (see http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-is-everyone-on-the-internet-so-angry/). If that's not to everyone's tastes, so be it. Nobody's forced to post here.

Anyway, if you are actually contributing something meaningful and not just insulting band members and pouring contempt on other board members (ie "go out and get a life" "[Calling band members by first names] like you are old pals is just sad" "You guys here must be truly obsessed"), then I withdraw my judgment of troll.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I am all alone in the following opinion but Hotel California is not on my list. It always annoyed me for some reason. The vocals, not the music. The guitars are amazing.

EDIT: I just listened to three versions of HC and I take it all back.

You are not alone!! It's not on my list of favorites, either. For me it wasn't really vocals 'or' music, it was 'and'. However, hearing it live has given me a new appreciation for it. Same with Desperado.

[thelastresort]

I should say guys I meant the 'have a drink with' more as a metaphor of what their professional personality is like, as others have said Glenn appears very affable offstage and away from it all: it also applies to other musicians and I'm sure the reverse applies where those perceived to be nice guys were abrasive at times. I too couldn't care less what the personalities of Frey, Henley, Felder, or any other musician whose work I love is like, I'm just grateful for their gift!

BTS - glad to see you've settled in a bit! And despite taking back what you said, I would agree with your original point in not sharing the universal love of Hotel California. Would just about scrape into my top 20 Eagles songs but is my fourth favourite off the album, behind The Last Resort (duh!), Pretty Maids All in a Row and New Kid in Town.

[sodascouts]

I'm a Glenn...sorry, Frey fan (8) ), but personally I don't mind people criticizing him. Often I just don't agree. But it seems to me that people criticizing Felder usually just criticize his words or actions, while people "criticizing" Frey call him names. I'm not necessarily referring to this forum, although the "douchebag" is quickly becoming a classic. There are hundreds if not thousands of people "out there" who hate Frey so much that they constantly call him names. Most of the time they don't mention any examples, or they just automatically take Felder's word as the ultimate truth.


I've noticed this too. A lot of times, these people don't even really talk about what they like about Felder. They just talk about what they hate about Glenn, and they make it personal. Then they wonder why his fans get defensive.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

We talked about this in the documentary thread (and elsewhere), by taking the high road and not lowering themselves to Felder's level, our guys left themselves open to this kind of speculation. When all the masses hear is Felder's drivel in his book, where he set out from the start to talk them down, then they believe it because they aren't hearing anything else. I say that he had this agenda because obviously, he knew them well enough to know that since they guarded their privacy so zealously, writing such a book would really hit them at a vulnerable spot. He of all people knew how they'd feel about it. Obviously, he didn't care, he was dealing with his emotions at being let go. It just upsets me that intelligent people can read that book and see only one side, one shouldn't need to hear the other side to know that it's not gospel truth.

[WalshFan88]

BTS, welcome.

I don't agree with everything you have to say, but I will agree that I wasn't happy the way Don Felder's participation was handled in HOTE, and it's not just Glenn's words on the actual firing.

As far as HC, I think without HC, the Eagles would not have enjoyed the success they did, as much at least, in the later 70s and today. That song is huge. I love the vocals and the music. The guitars seal the deal and the solo is one of the best in classic rock history. It's a masterpiece record, with a masterpiece title track. I can only imagine being in the studio when it was recorded. They had to know they were making history when Walsh and Felder cut the guitars on that.

[AlreadyGone95]

Well, it looks like I won't be reading the book until sometime in August, unless one of the semi local libraries has a copy. My music budget for July is tighter than I thought. :brickwall::ack: Though I love and cherish my collection, sometimes the bug is too much!

As for HC, it has a special place in my heart, as I can remember being 7/8 years old and singing my heart out to it. It's not my favorite, but it's still in my top 5 Eagles songs.

BTS, welcome from me as well.

[BTSinAustin]

We talked about this in the documentary thread (and elsewhere), by taking the high road and not lowering themselves to Felder's level, our guys left themselves open to this kind of speculation. When all the masses hear is Felder's drivel in his book, where he set out from the start to talk them down, then they believe it because they aren't hearing anything else. I say that he had this agenda because obviously, he knew them well enough to know that since they guarded their privacy so zealously, writing such a book would really hit them at a vulnerable spot. He of all people knew how they'd feel about it. Obviously, he didn't care, he was dealing with his emotions at being let go. It just upsets me that intelligent people can read that book and see only one side, one shouldn't need to hear the other side to know that it's not gospel truth.



Question. Since you were not there, what makes you call the book drivel?

I am not saying it is true or false, I have no idea what went on in private.


The smoking gun in all this is, the one thing in all of this that can't just be "he said, she said"; we know he was a full partner, we know he sued, we know they settled. No one would settle on a suite that big if they were in the right. Not a chance. They fought it for 6 years, then caved.

If someone was trying to screw me out of a billion dollar enterprise that I owned a third of, I would want to hit them too.

[BTSinAustin]

You are not alone!! It's not on my list of favorites, either. For me it wasn't really vocals 'or' music, it was 'and'. However, hearing it live has given me a new appreciation for it. Same with Desperado.

I agree, the live versions are amazing. But the vocals still annoy me for some reason.

[chaim]

If someone was trying to screw me out of a billion dollar enterprise that I owned a third of, I would want to hit them too.

This is a good point. But on the other hand, I probably wouldn't have immediately made a newcomer a full partner in the first place - like they did when Felder joined.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Question. Since you were not there, what makes you call the book drivel?

I am not saying it is true or false, I have no idea what went on in private.


The smoking gun in all this is, the one thing in all of this that can't just be "he said, she said"; we know he was a full partner, we know he sued, we know they settled. No one would settle on a suite that big if they were in the right. Not a chance. They fought it for 6 years, then caved.

If someone was trying to screw me out of a billion dollar enterprise that I owned a third of, I would want to hit them too.

I call it drivel for all the reasons I've already mentioned. He undertook the entire effort of writing the book to stick it to all of them, and especially Glenn and Don. Plus, and this is a big one, his publisher was only interested in that sort of stuff, so even if he hadn't had that as his mission, it would have been required nonetheless. I do know enough about the publishing industry to know what they were looking for. As Henley says, we love Dirty Laundry, and a lot of people bought the book looking for just that. If you read back through this thread, you'll see a lot of examples of inaccuracies. The 'facts' are presented as seen through his eyes, which is what all autobiographies do. People reading it have to remember that at the time, his eyes were clouded by a fog of negative emotion over being fired. I can understand why that fog existed and I can understand why it might be there for a while. Yet it still makes his perspective skewed, and in my opinion, quite a bit of it was drivel.

As for the settlement, we don't have the details on it, but it dragged out for years. The Eagles finally had an album ready to go, and they could not release LROOE with the lawsuit still hanging over their heads. They stood to make more from LROOE than whatever they had to give Felder. IMO, that is why they settled. There are PLENTY of examples of people settling out of court even if they were in the right. Google is full of such example, I'm sure, but I've been privy to several examples in my personal life that I cannot discuss, where that has been the case.

ETA: By the same token, not everything in his book can be dismissed, obviously, even with the slant in perspective. I guess what I'm trying to get across here is that you can hear an account of something like #DeflateGate (New England Patriots accused of deflating footballs below standards) from multiple sources. What you hear in Boston will be different than what you hear in, say, Indianapolis. Even the 'report' (Wells Report) that is supposed to tell us what really happened falls far short of that. Each of the three stories is rooted in facts, but the slants and perspectives that go into each make them look like three different stories. A person who really wants to be fair takes each one of them with a grain of salt, and certainly doesn't believe any one story 100%.

[BTSinAustin]

This is a good point. But on the other hand, I probably wouldn't have immediately made a newcomer a full partner in the first place - like they did when Felder joined.

Indeed. I have a new business venture with 3 young partners. One of them signed an agreement without checking with anyone else and that could have cost us over ten thousand. Not a huge amount but for a young shoestring company it was. The point of this is that people that are new in business often sign things without understanding or even considering the long term consequences. There is an old saying, "the most dangerous thing you own is your signature".

I'm sure Henley and Frey never in their wildest dreams thought the company would be worth a million, much less a billion. A new man was just another seat in a rent car and another room in a cheesy motel. Plus they had the amazingly generous idea that no one would be a side man.

[UndertheWire]

No one would settle on a suite that big if they were in the right. Not a chance. They fought it for 6 years, then caved.
Now that's binary thinking. The majority of lawsuits are settled out of court. Felder even admits that from the start he expected them to settle because Henley had settled previous lawsuits. If the suit had gone to court, regardless of who had won, the bands internal workings and finances would have been available to the press and other bodies to pick over. You should also consider that the band had a new album which might not have been released while the ownership was disputed. However, that it took 6 years to settle does suggest that Felder had a good case.

I've looked at that net worth site and it gives no explanation of how (and when) the numbers were calculated.

ETA: After I've struggled over finding the rights words, I find that meanwhile others have covered most of it more eloquently.

[BTSinAustin]

I call it drivel for all the reasons I've already mentioned. He undertook the entire effort of writing the book to stick it to all of them, and especially Glenn and Don. Plus, and this is a big one, his publisher was only interested in that sort of stuff, so even if he hadn't had that as his mission, it would have been required nonetheless. I do know enough about the publishing industry to know what they were looking for. As Henley says, we love Dirty Laundry, and a lot of people bought the book looking for just that. If you read back through this thread, you'll see a lot of examples of inaccuracies. The 'facts' are presented as seen through his eyes, which is what all autobiographies do. People reading it have to remember that at the time, his eyes were clouded by a fog of negative emotion over being fired. I can understand why that fog existed and I can understand why it might be there for a while. Yet it still makes his perspective skewed, and in my opinion, quite a bit of it was drivel.

As for the settlement, we don't have the details on it, but it dragged out for years. The Eagles finally had an album ready to go, and they could not release LROOE with the lawsuit still hanging over their heads. They stood to make more from LROOE than whatever they had to give Felder. IMO, that is why they settled. There are PLENTY of examples of people settling out of court even if they were in the right. Google is full of such example, I'm sure, but I've been privy to several examples in my personal life that I cannot discuss, where that has been the case.


This is a very interesting conversation, thanks for keeping it civil.

The reason I asked was the irony in what I read from you.
"It just upsets me that intelligent people can read that book and see only one side"

It seems that is just what you did, was read it and only see one side. But I have not read any contradictory evidence, i may have time to go back and read all 100ish pages of this thread. But I doubt it. To me this is just an interesting way to spend a few minutes and has no bearing on any real world things.


As for people settling out of court, yes, many do. But Felder was asking for a complete accounting of every transaction going back to 1974. The implications of that are way way bigger than the revenue for any one album. There is no way they would have caved. Just having to pay him what he was due from the tours would be a huge outlay. You can look at Felders estimated net worth and see that he got a HUGH settlement. He is worth as much as Frey.

Again, I am not saying The book is 100% accurate. He was kind to all but the 3 at the top and yes I include the manager. But none of us were there so none of us know.

[BTSinAustin]

Now that's binary thinking. The majority of lawsuits are settled out of court. Felder even admits that from the start he expected them to settle because Henley had settled previous lawsuits. If the suit had gone to court, regardless of who had won, the bands internal workings and finances would have been available to the press and other bodies to pick over. You should also consider that the band had a new album which might not have been released while the ownership was disputed. However, that it took 6 years to settle does suggest that Felder had a good case.

I've looked at that net worth site and it gives no explanation of how (and when) the numbers were calculated.

ETA: After I've struggled over finding the rights words, I find that meanwhile others have covered most of it more eloquently.


Good points. Most cases end up settling. But let me ask you. No one disputes that Fleder owned a third. Why would he not have a good case? He was a full stock holder

[SilverMoon]

Welcome, BTS.

Here’s an interesting interview with producer Bill Szymczyk. In it, he talks about the Eagles and other musicians. He also comments on Don Felder’s book.

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/show_interview.php?id=916

Jeb: I met Don Felder and interviewed him for the jumbo-tron at the festival The Moondance Jam and I said, “I used to be a huge Eagles fan.” He said, “Me too.” He tells it all in his book.

Bill: Other people that have read his book, which was pretty true, concerning the stories and the animosities – he did not exaggerate all that much. People would read that book and tell me, “You’re the only one in that book that doesn’t come off like a shit head.”

[VAisForEagleLovers]

He did have a good case, and I'm sure the three at the top knew it when they let him go. I'm sure they knew it would end in a lawsuit. They just wanted him out more than they cared about a lawsuit. I've read that they were surprised he sued them, but remember Felder brought two suits against them, and one was later dropped. The second, I can't find, but I remember reading it well over ten years ago online, through a Los Angeles newspaper, I think, back when it was still public record that you didn't have to pay to see. It was very personal and very emotional. My thoughts are it was the one that surprised them.

As I added in my edit, you may have missed it before posting your reply, I do not see only one side. I have no doubts large portions of it are true, and I don't even doubt that in a lot of cases his 'slant' is accurate. I don't doubt that Frey and Henley can be difficult to get along with and have problems with their egos. The same can be said for most of my co-workers. They likely say the same about me.

[BTSinAustin]

ETA: By the same token, not everything in his book can be dismissed, obviously, even with the slant in perspective. I guess what I'm trying to get across here is that you can hear an account of something like #DeflateGate (New England Patriots accused of deflating footballs below standards) from multiple sources. What you hear in Boston will be different than what you hear in, say, Indianapolis. Even the 'report' (Wells Report) that is supposed to tell us what really happened falls far short of that. Each of the three stories is rooted in facts, but the slants and perspectives that go into each make them look like three different stories. A person who really wants to be fair takes each one of them with a grain of salt, and certainly doesn't believe any one story 100%.

Again we agree. I forget who, but someone here pointed out that the pics of the gods in the book were the worst possible and I went and looked and sure enough it was true. I have no doubt that some of what Felder said was drivel. I also have no doubt that they tried to screw him out of what he had coming. That much is clear. As for the personalities. The stones, beatles, pink floyd, fleetwood mac and on and on pretty much hated each other. Jagger/Richards are well known to give very little to no writing credit. George Harrison was very upset about the fact that Lennon and Mccartney made so much more. My wife has a great saying... Money just makes you more of who you are.

[BTSinAustin]

He did have a good case, and I'm sure the three at the top knew it when they let him go. I'm sure they knew it would end in a lawsuit. They just wanted him out more than they cared about a lawsuit. I've read that they were surprised he sued them, but remember Felder brought two suits against them, and one was later dropped. The second, I can't find, but I remember reading it well over ten years ago online, through a Los Angeles newspaper, I think, back when it was still public record that you didn't have to pay to see. It was very personal and very emotional. My thoughts are it was the one that surprised them.

As I added in my edit, you may have missed it before posting your reply, I do not see only one side. I have no doubts large portions of it are true, and I don't even doubt that in a lot of cases his 'slant' is accurate. I don't doubt that Frey and Henley can be difficult to get along with and have problems with their egos. The same can be said for most of my co-workers. They likely say the same about me.


Correct in that I responded pre-edit. You and I are pretty much in agreement. On the co workers... my poor guys think I am a total dick most of the time. I expect perfection and that is hard to come by.

This was a great little diversion and I thank you all. Now I have to get back to life. Trying to get stuff finished so I can walk out of here today with no guilt for taking a 4 day weekend. Headed to Denver.

PS, one of the best shows i ever saw was CSNY at mile high stadium somewhere around 74.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Re them trying to screw him out of what he had coming, I prefer to think of it along the lines of knowing it didn't matter what they gave him, he'd take them to court. So they gave him next to nothing and decided to let a judge decide or a get a settlement. I do believe what they originally gave him is what they felt he had earned, but they were smart enough to know that lawsuits are never about what a person has earned.

At any rate, welcome to The Border, BTS. I don't believe I ever did say that. I'm glad to see you seem to have become as obsessed as the rest of us, and you haven't even moved off this thread yet! We can be addictive...

[BTSinAustin]

Welcome, BTS.

Here’s an interesting interview with producer Bill Szymczyk. In it, he talks about the Eagles and other musicians. He also comments on Don Felder’s book.

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/show_interview.php?id=916

Interesting. No time right now but that looks to validate a lot of the book based on an insider.

[UndertheWire]

Good points. Most cases end up settling. But let me ask you. No one disputes that Fleder owned a third. Why would he not have a good case? He was a full stock holder
A full stock holder of what? It seems indisputable that Felder owned a third of the corporation formed in 1974. However, it seems from 1994 they were using different companies and contracts so presumably the legal arguments were about whether these new contracts were valid and whether Felder was coerced into signing them ("sign by sunset or you're out of the band" seems pretty blatant to me). Felder's initial suit covered more than ownership and those aspects might have been harder to prove.

If I'm remembering rightly, one part of the lawsuit that Felder liked was that Frey and Henley (and Azoff) had to sit there and listen to complaints rather than ignoring him.

Anyway, enjoy your long weekend in the mountains and thanks for the chat.

[sodascouts]

I am glad the discourse has become civil and I thank those members who have made such a concerted effort to turn it around despite the invitation to "let the flaming begin."

Everyone interprets things differently, so even though I disagree with many of these perceptions, characterizations, and assessments of how people "seemed", I grant that those are subjective.

I do feel the need to address a few factual errors, however.


Then him saying the only way he would participate in a reunion was if he and Henley made way more money than the rest.

Hmm, this is a bit of an exaggeration, is it not? Why don't we judge Glenn on what he really said, which was not that he should make WAY more money, but simply "more money." (source (http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=history-of-the-eagles-part-one)). Funny how one word can make such a difference when you're characterizing someone's personality, isn't it? You make the case that he is horribly greedy by tweaking what he said to make him sound worse.

Now, you have every right to disagree that he deserved more - you wouldn't be alone in that opinion - but play fair.


he got a huge settlement based estimates of his net worth at 70 million, same as Frey

While I am hesitant to lend credence to these so-called net worth sites since I doubt they have access to comprehensive financial records, the quick search I did on Google put Glenn at 70 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/glenn-frey-net-worth/) and Felder at 60 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/don-felder-net-worth/). Other sites such as GetNetWorth.com (http://www.getnetworth.com/don-felder-net-worth/)and The Hollywood Reporter (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/earshot/don-felder-gives-history-eagles-427098) have the same number for Felder. Another site puts him at $50 million (http://www.vintagevinylnews.com/2013/07/don-henley-dishes-on-former-eagles.html). Since these sites have such variance, I can believe you found a site or blog somewhere that says $70 million for Felder, although you neglected to cite it. It seems most sites put him lower, though. One must be careful about investing so much of one's argument on a figure that is not even agreed upon by the majority of these admittedly unreliable sites.

But then again, what's $10 million to these guys, eh? It's inarguable that Felder is rich, and I can see why you'd draw the conclusion that a good chunk of his money comes from the lawsuit rather than, say, royalties for his music or ticket sales for his solo shows. That's not an unreasonable assumption. Nevertheless, it IS an assumption. We must recognize that we really don't know how much of that is from the settlement, do we? His book is a best-seller, after all, and I daresay he wasn't broke in 2001.

Of course, he would be even richer if he had won the case rather than settling for a lower amount. He initially wanted "more than $50 million" for lost revenue alone (source (http://articles.latimes.com/2002/dec/08/business/fi-eagles-8)), a figure he obviously did not receive.


The stones, beatles, pink floyd, fleetwood mac and on and on pretty much hated each other.

I don't know much about the conflicts in other bands. However, I know a lot about Fleetwood Mac. Most of the band got along fine; even Christine and John have enjoyed an amicable relationship after the initial hard feelings over their divorce faded. Heck, Christine wrote Songbird (https://www.google.com/search?q=fleetwood+mac+songbird+lyrics) for John months after the divorce. I don't see much hate there.

Stevie and Lindsey had some very ugly conflicts and moments when they hated each other, moments which make all the drama we're discussing between Glenn and Felder that has shocked and appalled some to such a degree seem quite tame in comparison. Still, that only tells half the story.

Stevie puts it well: "We tangle a lot, but we love each other - we'll always love each other. He and I will never get away from the fact that we were as one for so many years." (Source (http://www.inherownwords.com/lindsey.htm))

Again, one must be careful not to exaggerate in order to make a point. Emotions are complicated, and I think someone here indicated that it's not constructive to see things in just back and white, eh? ;)

Others are already dealing with the fact that the lawsuit is not as simplistic as you believe it to be, so I'll leave that alone. To be fair, I realize that you cannot be expected to be as familiar with its nuances as many of us are - it's very knotty, as most of these big money lawsuits are. Also, you would not be the first to equate an out-of-court settlement with an admission of guilt. It is a very common and understandable oversimplification of the messy American legal system.

[BTSinAustin]

A full stock holder of what? It seems indisputable that Felder owned a third of the corporation formed in 1974. However, it seems from 1994 they were using different companies and contracts so presumably the legal arguments were about whether these new contracts were valid and whether Felder was coerced into signing them ("sign by sunset or you're out of the band" seems pretty blatant to me). Felder's initial suit covered more than ownership and those aspects might have been harder to prove.

If I'm remembering rightly, one part of the lawsuit that Felder liked was that Frey and Henley (and Azoff) had to sit there and listen to complaints rather than ignoring him.

Anyway, enjoy your long weekend in the mountains and thanks for the chat.

Many good points but it is not relevant that other companies were formed to use the assets (trade marks, name, images, mechanical rights, etc.) When a company holds assets, they do not expire just because they fall out of use. In fact it could be argued (and I'm sure it was) that these new companies were created to deprive Felder of his rightful take. Why else would they be needed.
Anyway, I am not going to convince you, nor you me. But it was fun, too much in fact, i should be working.

[BTSinAustin]

I am glad the discourse has become civil and I thank those members who have made such a concerted effort to turn it around despite the invitation to "let the flaming begin."

Everyone interprets things differently, so even though I disagree with many of these perceptions, characterizations, and assessments of how people "seemed", I grant that those are subjective.

I do feel the need to address a few factual errors, however.



Hmm, this is a bit of an exaggeration, is it not? Why don't we judge Glenn on what he really said, which was not that he should make WAY more money, but simply "more money." (source (http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=history-of-the-eagles-part-one)). Funny how one word can make such a difference when you're characterizing someone's personality, isn't it? You make the case that he is horribly greedy by tweaking what he said to make him sound worse.

Now, you have every right to disagree that he deserved more - you wouldn't be alone in that opinion - but play fair.



While I am hesitant to lend credence to these so-called net worth sites since I doubt they have access to comprehensive financial records, the quick search I did on Google put Glenn at 70 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/glenn-frey-net-worth/) and Felder at 60 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/don-felder-net-worth/). Other sites such as GetNetWorth.com (http://www.getnetworth.com/don-felder-net-worth/)and The Hollywood Reporter (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/earshot/don-felder-gives-history-eagles-427098) have the same number for Felder. Another site puts him at $50 million (http://www.vintagevinylnews.com/2013/07/don-henley-dishes-on-former-eagles.html). Since these sites have such variance, I can believe you found a site or blog somewhere that says $70 million for Felder, although you neglected to cite it. It seems most sites put him lower, though. One must be careful about investing so much of one's argument on a figure that is not even agreed upon by the majority of these admittedly unreliable sites.

But then again, what's $10 million to these guys, eh? It's inarguable that Felder is rich, and I can see why you'd draw the conclusion that a good chunk of his money comes from the lawsuit rather than, say, royalties for his music or ticket sales for his solo shows. That's not an unreasonable assumption. Nevertheless, it IS an assumption. We must recognize that we really don't know how much of that is from the settlement, do we? His book is a best-seller, after all, and I daresay he wasn't broke in 2001.

Of course, he would be even richer if he had won the case rather than settling for a lower amount. He initially wanted "more than $50 million" for lost revenue alone (source (http://articles.latimes.com/2002/dec/08/business/fi-eagles-8)), a figure he obviously did not receive.



I don't know much about the conflicts in other bands. However, I know a lot about Fleetwood Mac. Most of the band got along fine; even Christine and John have enjoyed an amicable relationship after the initial hard feelings over their divorce faded. Heck, Christine wrote Songbird (https://www.google.com/search?q=fleetwood+mac+songbird+lyrics) for John months after the divorce. I don't see much hate there.

Stevie and Lindsey had some very ugly conflicts and moments when they hated each other, moments which make all the drama we're discussing between Glenn and Felder that has shocked and appalled some to such a degree seem quite tame in comparison. Still, that only tells half the story.

Stevie puts it well: "We tangle a lot, but we love each other - we'll always love each other. He and I will never get away from the fact that we were as one for so many years." (Source (http://www.inherownwords.com/lindsey.htm))

Again, one must be careful not to exaggerate in order to make a point. Emotions are complicated, and I think someone here indicated that it's not constructive to see things in just back and white, eh? ;)

Others are already dealing with the fact that the lawsuit is not as simplistic as you believe it to be, so I'll leave that alone. To be fair, I realize that you cannot be expected to be as familiar with its nuances as many of us are - it's very knotty, as most of these big money lawsuits are. Also, you would not be the first to equate an out-of-court settlement with an admission of guilt. It is a very common and understandable oversimplification of the messy American legal system.



Yes wording matters. I will have to watch the show again to see exactly what Frey said about making more or way more. But his tone said it all. But like I said, I had no preconceived notions until I watched, and Frey's tone is where a lot of my opinions about him came from. I notice you didn't jump all over anyone for saying felders book was drivel? Surely that was exaggerated.


When all the masses hear is Felder's drivel in his book

If you are going to say for me to play fair, you have too as well. Based on the little I have seen, my opinion is that you ignore inflammatory language if you agree with it.


Net Worth: I tend to use Celebrity Net Worth if Forbes numbers are not available, seems most other quote them.

Again, I have no idea about the lawsuit, just like you. I only offer opinions and what I see as a few indisputable facts. You were not there and I was not there. Neither of us have any basis to act as an expert. Some day after everyone is dead the numbers and facts will come out. Until then, i wish you peace.

[sodascouts]

Net Worth: I tend to use Celebrity Net Worth if Forbes numbers are not available, seems most other quote them.


I couldn't find Forbes data, but Celebrity Net Worth is one of the sites that had Felder's net worth $60 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/don-felder-net-worth/)and Frey at $70 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/glenn-frey-net-worth/).


Yes wording matters. I will have to watch the show again to see exactly what Frey said about making more or way more. But his tone said it all. But like I said, I had no preconceived notions until I watched, and Frey's tone is where a lot of my opinions about him came from. I notice you didn't jump all over anyone for saying felders book was drivel? Surely that was exaggerated.
When all the masses hear is Felder's drivel in his book If you are going to say for me to play fair, you have too as well. Based on the little I have seen, my opinion is that you ignore inflammatory language if you agree with it.


I also said that perceptions are subjective, and facts are not. VA's perception of the book is that it is "drivel." You disagree. Fair enough.

However, the "wording" problem regarding "way more money" was not an inflammatory statement of perception, but a misquote. You claimed Glenn said something he didn't. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Surely you can see the difference.

Now, if you can find a factual error in VA's posts (or mine, or anyone's), then feel free to point them out. I know I often misremember things, which is why I try to find sources for my information. For instance, I couldn't remember exactly what Glenn said but your quote didn't ring true, so I did a quick search for a transcript and found my instincts were right.

We live in the information age, and I take full advantage of it. Thanks, Google.

Side note: it is dismaying to see the correcting of factual errors characterized as "jumping all over" someone. Are we really that unconcerned about getting our facts straight when making an argument?

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Yes wording matters. I will have to watch the show again to see exactly what Frey said about making more or way more. But his tone said it all. But like I said, I had no preconceived notions until I watched, and Frey's tone is where a lot of my opinions about him came from. I notice you didn't jump all over anyone for saying felders book was drivel? Surely that was exaggerated.



If you are going to say for me to play fair, you have too as well. Based on the little I have seen, my opinion is that you ignore inflammatory language if you agree with it.


Net Worth: I tend to use Celebrity Net Worth if Forbes numbers are not available, seems most other quote them.

Again, I have no idea about the lawsuit, just like you. I only offer opinions and what I see as a few indisputable facts. You were not there and I was not there. Neither of us have any basis to act as an expert. Some day after everyone is dead the numbers and facts will come out. Until then, i wish you peace.

Touche' BTS. I didn't consider my words to be inflammatory, I guess my buttons were pushed without me realizing it. I will not apologize for the words as I meant them, but I will apologize for typing them out where they could inflame someone. I'll just say "it upsets me when all the masses hear is Felder's personal-and-therefore-biased slant on things in his book." Along with "I cannot fathom why he chose to include some of the things he included."

The Eagles are not one-hit-wonders, and they are arguably the most successful band the US has ever produced. It took a lot of talent, work, and drive from a lot of people to achieve what they've achieved. Reading Felder's book and the interviews he's done since then, a person would think he was a prime reason for that success. In the same book and interviews, he passes off Glenn's talent and voice like it doesn't exist, and all Henley has going for him is a great voice. Both are horrible men who treated Felder poorly, and Felder himself did nothing to warrant the treatment. This is the sort of logic that Felder followed that I consider to be nonsense (i.e. drivel). Everything in the book that has to do with the band is slanted, in my opinion, to that premise.

[BTSinAustin]

Touche' BTS. I didn't consider my words to be inflammatory, I guess my buttons were pushed without me realizing it. I will not apologize for the words as I meant them, but I will apologize for typing them out where they could inflame someone. I'll just say "it upsets me when all the masses hear is Felder's personal-and-therefore-biased slant on things in his book." Along with "I cannot fathom why he chose to include some of the things he included."

The Eagles are not one-hit-wonders, and they are arguably the most successful band the US has ever produced. It took a lot of talent, work, and drive from a lot of people to achieve what they've achieved. Reading Felder's book and the interviews he's done since then, a person would think he was a prime reason for that success. In the same book and interviews, he passes off Glenn's talent and voice like it doesn't exist, and all Henley has going for him is a great voice. Both are horrible men who treated Felder poorly, and Felder himself did nothing to warrant the treatment. This is the sort of logic that Felder followed that I consider to be nonsense (i.e. drivel). Everything in the book that has to do with the band is slanted, in my opinion, to that premise.

I just used you as an example, no harm no foul.

And wow, I did get some bitterness but I though Felder came off as pretty humble for a guy of his caliber. He was not all negitive and I didn't think he was taking credit where it was not due. No offense but I'm coming at this with fresh eyes and no agenda. I think you have enough bias to see more negative percentage wise than is there. That said there is a lot of negative in it. I think you just focused more on it than I did. I got the idea that he was in awe of the Gods as anyone would be. Henly more so than Frey. I am among those that think Henley is way more talented as witnessed by the amazing solo career against a so so one at best one.

I think a great topic is in the post from Silvermoon with the quotes from Bill Szymczyk. I would love to here more discussion on that point along. An insider saying it was mostly true.


which was pretty true, concerning the stories and the animosities – he did not exaggerate all that much.

I did not search, I assume this has been hashed out?


Anyway, its all good.


Edit: Forgot to touch on this...


Along with "I cannot fathom why he chose to include some of the things he included."

Assume for a minute that what he says is true and he did get screwed over and treated like hired help instead of a partner. ( I know you don't think he is telling the truth but play along.) If someone was trying to take you for a ride on a third of a billion dollar business and treated you the way he was treated, would you lash out? I bet you would. Hell you were mad about the book... right?

Now lets assume that he is 50% right. Same deal, would you lash out?

Last question. For my sake, please list a couple of things that you couldn't fathom he included? Besides the sex and drugs and r&r i don't recall any earth shattering revelations..

Again thanks for the civil conversation.

[BTSinAustin]

I couldn't find Forbes data, but Celebrity Net Worth is one of the sites that had Felder's net worth $60 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/don-felder-net-worth/)and Frey at $70 million (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/rock-stars/glenn-frey-net-worth/).



I also said that perceptions are subjective, and facts are not. VA's perception of the book is that it is "drivel." You disagree. Fair enough.

However, the "wording" problem regarding "way more money" was not an inflammatory statement of perception, but a misquote. You claimed Glenn said something he didn't. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person. Surely you can see the difference.

Now, if you can find a factual error in VA's posts (or mine, or anyone's), then feel free to point them out. I know I often misremember things, which is why I try to find sources for my information. For instance, I couldn't remember exactly what Glenn said but your quote didn't ring true, so I did a quick search for a transcript and found my instincts were right.

We live in the information age, and I take full advantage of it. Thanks, Google.

Side note: it is dismaying to the correcting of factual errors characterized as "jumping all over" someone. Are we really that unconcerned about getting our facts straight when making an argument?


Agree, if one uses quotes he should make it accurate.


What do you think about the quotes from Bill Szymczyk that the book was...


pretty true, concerning the stories and the animosities – he did not exaggerate all that much.

I think this guy would know better than anyone else.


And please, no lectures on search features.

Thanks

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I tend to lash out more regarding others than I do myself. I've really got to stop doing that, I suppose, but I do have my subtle ways of letting people know when they've crossed a line. All I can say is that even if I were part of something that big, there's no way in hell it would ever get to the point I'd be treated as he was treated. Because while I can't site chapter and verse, I can tell you he did something in order to get treated that way, something I really feel I'm too smart to do. Don't choke on your laughter on that, OK? :hilarious: I'm telling you I really am much more attuned to people to ever let something get that far.

As for some of the other things, I hesitate to discuss them as they are off topic, and we've discussed them a lot elsewhere. I would guess it doesn't surprise you that I prefer Glenn's solo career over Henley's, but I've always felt that way, and his recent edition of After Hours has pretty much cemented it for me. There are different indicators of success, and it all depends on what charts you look at, I suppose.

I'm not sure where the thread is where we discuss Symczyk's interview, and I'm not sure I remember it. I'll try to get to it this weekend.

I will find the snippets of the book where I'm baffled by things and give specifics. Right this very moment, though, I feel an urge to slip back into my JAG marathon, so I'll look them up later during the Pirate game.

Which brings me to:


Again thanks for the civil conversation.

All my conversation is civil unless you're a Flyers fan. Or Reds. Or Ravens.

[sodascouts]

I'm not sure where the thread is where we discuss Symczyk's interview, and I'm not sure I remember it.

The Szymczyk interview is first posted here (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225&page=209), post #2089; there is some discussion of it here (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225&page=211), posts #2109-#2113.

I agree with what you posted about it in #2110.

[MaryCalifornia]

I should say guys I meant the 'have a drink with' more as a metaphor of what their professional personality is like, as others have said Glenn appears very affable offstage and away from it all:

Well I thought someone on here would mention it but nobody did, so I'll jump in. Earlier this year, Glenn actually invited one of our co-Borderers (FloJo) and her husband to have a drink with him in the hotel bar after he recognized them from the show!!!! He always acknowledges Borderers he recognizes, talks to them at golf tourneys, etc...I've never heard of him being anything but kind in person.

It comes through in the doc that he hates Felder and has no respect for him, and so what? That's his prerogative (as Bobby Brown would say.) I like and have respect for Felder, but I get the sense that he drove Glenn nuts for almost 25 years and that if he stayed, we wouldn't have had the past 14 years with the Eagles, Glenn wouldn't have done it.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Well I thought someone on here would mention it but nobody did, so I'll jump in. Earlier this year, Glenn actually invited one of our co-Borderers (FloJo) and her husband to have a drink with him in the hotel bar after he recognized them from the show!!!! He always acknowledges Borderers he recognizes, talks to them at golf tourneys, etc...I've never heard of him being anything but kind in person.

It comes through in the doc that he hates Felder and has no respect for him, and so what? That's his prerogative (as Bobby Brown would say.) I like and have respect for Felder, but I get the sense that he drove Glenn nuts for almost 25 years and that if he stayed, we wouldn't have had the past 14 years with the Eagles, Glenn wouldn't have done it.

Well, thank you, MaryCA, for putting that song in my head just as I'm getting ready to go to bed... :D

[chaim]

(WARNING: There's a "but" coming. :hilarious: ) I like BTS's posts, and I really enjoy reading them. I feel they're a breath of fresh air, so to speak. BUT I got a bit of an "I came to this with fresh/open ears and eyes and I can look at things objectively, whereas some of you are biased" vibe from a couple of posts. Of course I personally can't deny all bias, but I have to say that before I read Felder's book I had no negative thoughts about him whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I was really looking forward to reading it and expecting to enjoy it. Then I noticed I didn't like the way it was written; all the "me me me" and "they really needed my input" stuff I saw - also in bits that had nothing to do with the Eagles.

Also, stuff like "I think Graham Nash took a different view of me after that" to tell us he had done (or hadn't done, to be precise) something to make Nash really respect him - is something I'd rather hear from Nash than Felder. And this has nothing to do with Glenn Frey, who - granted - has always been my favorite Eagles singer (and member - in that order).

Still, should I support the "enemy" (Felder) just to show that I'm not biased and defending my "hero" (Frey) blindly?

EDIT:

And, like I've expressed countless times before, writing about his "real sensual" guitar work in ICTYW without mentioning that he's talking about the rhythm part - or lead parts in concerts - and totally neglecting to mention Glenn (I see I'm back to first names now:hilarious: ) is inexcusable, regardless of whether the reader is a Glenn fan or not. There were too many people already thinking that Don played the solos (and the "dadadada-dum" bit) on the album too, because album credits can be wrong and he played it live and in the video. (He seemed to keep this myth alive until someone finally asked him "Did you play the solo(s) on the album?").

(Incidentally, am I slightly paranoid, or are those who defend Glenn usually "biased", while those who defend Don F are objective? And I'm not referring to BTS now. It's a general vibe I sometimes get.)

[UndertheWire]

Many good points but it is not relevant that other companies were formed to use the assets (trade marks, name, images, mechanical rights, etc.) When a company holds assets, they do not expire just because they fall out of use. In fact it could be argued (and I'm sure it was) that these new companies were created to deprive Felder of his rightful take. Why else would they be needed.
Anyway, I am not going to convince you, nor you me. But it was fun, too much in fact, i should be working.
You're not going to convince me with that kind of argument!

We are assuming the original Eagles Ltd owns the Eagles brand. Also that the mechanical royalties for the recordings made from 1972-1980 are received by Eagles Ltd and are distributed according to the rules of that corporation* (not an equal split to current shareholders). Those assets did not fall out of use and of course they hadn't expired. It also seems likely that this continued after 1994 and may do so to this day.

In 1994, new companies were set up for the HFO tour and recordings. I've seen no suggestion that these companies tried to acquire the assets of the original company. Obviously, they used the Eagles brand but that can be done under license. My understanding is that the new remuneration split was only for these tours and recordings and would not have affected the back-catalogue.

Felder's lawsuits covered a lot more than ownership of Eagles Ltd.

* It seems that when the original company was set up, there was provision for members leaving the band and under those circumstances they would surrender their shares. However, those former band members would continue to receive royalties for the recordings they had made during their time with the band. For Leadon and Meisner that would include those 29 million copies of the first greatest hits album, so this is not insignificant. On the other side, although Felder was made an equal member going forward, he did not directly benefit from recordings that were made before he joined. This means that Felder has never received an equal share from the activities of the original band.

(If you consider GH1, the split of the royalties will have been 23% each for the original four and just 8% for Felder, reflecting their contributions. )

[UndertheWire]

I want to say that I came to the documentary "fresh" after a break of 37 years from the Eagles, and as I bought Felder's book a couple of days later, I must have been pretty fresh when I read that, too. It didn't occur to me that Frey might be considered a "douchebag" until I started reading such comments at imdb. I didn't warm to Felder in his book and he failed to convince me that Frey is that bad.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I've been a fan of the Eagles for a very long time. I will admit that the first few years of being a fan, I had no idea who I was a fan of. It wasn't until BOML that I'd heard of the Eagles, and it wasn't until HC (the album) came out that I put together that Don and Glenn shared leads and were both members of the Eagles. I knew who Joe Walsh was and it was when he joined that I learned that a lot of songs I'd always liked were sung by the Eagles. DJs were terrible at saying who sang a song, and and as far recognizing voices, I was a young teen and had the attention span of one.

When HC came out with Joe coming on, there was discussion on the radio. I knew someone not named Don, Glenn, or Joe sang TITTL, but had no idea who did. I knew another guy I'd never heard of was leaving and Joe was replacing him, and I didn't remember his name. When TLR came out, there was more discussion about the guy who sang TITTL leaving and another guy taking his place. I could never remember his name, but did remember it included a middle initial. At that point, at the age of 17, the Eagles to me were Don and Glenn, and I couldn't have given you Don's last name on a bet.

I knew all about NFA, even if I refused to take it out of the shrink wrap because I was mad at Glenn for breaking up the Eagles. When Dirty Laundry came out, I knew the name of who sang it, but didn't put it together that he was a former Eagle until Building the Perfect Beast. I followed Glenn until I switched to country in 1990. I didn't buy or go see HFO, as most of you know, that had to do with a guy I thought I was seeing, those wasn't the best years of my life.

Where I'm going with all this is, I knew there was a guy who Joe replaced, I knew of Randy, Bernie, and Timothy even if I didn't know their names. I knew Joe, Glenn, and Henley. I never heard Don Felder's name until he was let go in 2001 and the story hit Yahoo! news. There are friends, family, and coworkers of mine who never heard of him until the documentary came out.

For myself, personally, you can call me biased, but I will never agree that some guy who I'd never heard or known of deserved the same amount of money as Frey and Henley. I didn't know that Felder had written a book until I joined this board back in 2011. Obviously, I approached it as a fan of Glenn's, Henley's, and Joe's. I just went back and reread my initial thoughts on the book, post #417, and I remember what I was thinking. I knew he'd been let go and knew it had to do with them not all getting along, and also knew the root of it was money. I knew what had happened back in 1980 where he was concerned. Still, I'd approached the book expecting to read something that supported his thoughts that he was equal to Glenn and Don in the Eagles. I really thought that it was a difference of opinion. I knew enough of both Glenn and Don to know they could have issues with egos, and I'd read enough through the years about Glenn to know he could have a hell of a temper. I expected to side with Glenn and Don, but I at least expected to understand Felder's side of it. So I was shocked and dismayed to find I didn't. I also remember finishing the book and thinking 'union'. I don't want to offend anyone here who may be a union employee, but with my background, unions are never considered a good thing. Seniority doesn't mean anything when it comes to pay or benefits. The whole idea of everything being equal when it comes to credit and/or pay regardless of the amount of input smacks of socialism to me. I totally get the concept of shares in a corporation, but to me, it works differently when the shareholders are the employees, so to speak, the ones who do the work.

[AlreadyGone95]

Well, one of the main libraries does have the book, and it's not checked out, so tomorrow I'll be checking it out :D.

In the meantime, I'm going to spend tonight reading this thread.

[Freypower]

(WARNING: There's a "but" coming. :hilarious: ) I like BTS's posts, and I really enjoy reading them. I feel they're a breath of fresh air, so to speak. BUT I got a bit of an "I came to this with fresh/open ears and eyes and I can look at things objectively, whereas some of you are biased" vibe from a couple of posts. Of course I personally can't deny all bias, but I have to say that before I read Felder's book I had no negative thoughts about him whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I was really looking forward to reading it and expecting to enjoy it. Then I noticed I didn't like the way it was written; all the "me me me" and "they really needed my input" stuff I saw - also in bits that had nothing to do with the Eagles.

Also, stuff like "I think Graham Nash took a different view of me after that" to tell us he had done (or hadn't done, to be precise) something to make Nash really respect him - is something I'd rather hear from Nash than Felder. And this has nothing to do with Glenn Frey, who - granted - has always been my favorite Eagles singer (and member - in that order).

Still, should I support the "enemy" (Felder) just to show that I'm not biased and defending my "hero" (Frey) blindly?

EDIT:

And, like I've expressed countless times before, writing about his "real sensual" guitar work in ICTYW without mentioning that he's talking about the rhythm part - or lead parts in concerts - and totally neglecting to mention Glenn (I see I'm back to first names now:hilarious: ) is inexcusable, regardless of whether the reader is a Glenn fan or not. There were too many people already thinking that Don played the solos (and the "dadadada-dum" bit) on the album too, because album credits can be wrong and he played it live and in the video. (He seemed to keep this myth alive until someone finally asked him "Did you play the solo(s) on the album?").

(Incidentally, am I slightly paranoid, or are those who defend Glenn usually "biased", while those who defend Don F are objective? And I'm not referring to BTS now. It's a general vibe I sometimes get.)

Toni, thank you for this post, and the vibe you get is correct.

I have an analogy which is to do with politics so allow me to bore you with it.

A debate has been raging here about the national broadcaster, the ABC, which conservatives including the current government believe is 'biased' towards the Labor Party & the Green Party i.e. left wing. When it is pointed out to them that the Murdoch press which controls 70% of press ownership in this country is extremely, stridently, right wing all they say it 'but it isn't accountable to taxpayers so it can say what it likes'. What they seem to think is that only a taxpayer funded organisation has to be accountable for what it broadcasts. I completely disagree with this. However the Murdoch press is never held accountable for anything, including the phone hacking it conducted in the UK, because politicians are too scared to offend the man, whereas the public broadcaster, like the BBC, is a soft target.

The analogy seems to be that if you sympathise with Don Felder you are not coming from the existing preconceptions you would have if you were a fan of Frey or Henley and you are therefore 'objective' and 'reasoned' while Frey & Henley fans are hysterical & blind. We get that line all the time on this board when people join apparently for the sole purpose of bashing Frey. 'But I'm objective' they say. 'I hate Frey & the rest of you seem to love him, so I must be objective and I am standing up for poor oppressed Don Felder so that makes me even more objective'.

Never do these people try & see it from the other perspective. Felder must be a victim; there is no argument. The song Get Over It which so eloquently described the victim culture so prevalent these days sums up this attitude. Frey & Henley's motives for sacking (sorry, firing) Felder could only have been sinister. God forbid that they may have been justified in what they did because Felder's behaviour forced their hand.

When talking about the reunion & why Glenn is angry during HOTE about the way Felder behaved during the 'salary negotiations' it appeared Felder learned precisely nothing from Wrong Beach. For 14 years he sat around, producing virtually nothing in terms of music. They could have reformed without him; as VA says above he was not known to the general public. They threw him a lifeline & revived his non-existent career. He then decided that he wasn't been paid enough. Say what you like; it was base ingratitude, just as his behaviour in 1980 was, which is why Glenn called him selfish & ungrateful.

I suppose now the arguments about 'but he was the third owner' etc etc will now come up. If Frey & Henley made one mistake it was to give in to what Marc Eliot describes as his 'pushing & shoving' & make him an equal partner. They changed that after the reunion & he couldn't deal with it - that part I can understand, I guess. But if he was so unhappy he didnt have to rejoin.

Sorry for the rant. For the most part I don't want to keep repeating what I've said many times before.

[L101]

I don't normally post anything about Felder as his whole "Poor little me, me, me " attitude drives me nuts !!
However, I agree with FP here, she couldn't have said it better!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

FP, of course I agree with you, and Toni, too.

I have to wonder... after what happened at Long Beach and how it all ended in 1980, given 14 years to think about it, Felder had to have realized the errors he'd made, and I'm not talking 'I guess'. They all made errors, so I'm not really wanting to discuss that, but he knew he'd crossed a line that Glenn couldn't and wouldn't handle. Then they have the reunion and he gets asked back. Think about this. His contributions to the band were mostly guitar work, and while he's extremely talented on guitar with a touch that can't really be replicated, it can come close. He's good enough that every one picking up a guitar with the intent to master it wanted to be him, and they learned his craft and style nearly as well as he knew it. So, while they could have gotten someone to replace him who was almost as good, they didn't. So he likely thought he could do what he wanted, push as hard as he wanted, and nothing would happen. The money and fame was good enough he was certain it wouldn't just stop like it had before, either.

Like you said, FP, they could have reformed without him and they didn't. So perhaps he thought it was all fair game and regardless of the warnings from Irving, whom he knew was working both sides, he figured he could push and push and get results. He was wrong. So yes, getting fired came as a complete surprise, and learning he'd miscalculated had to have been gut-wrenching, which was why he immediately went into 'call them all and beg' mode. Far too little and far too late.

[Brooke]

I don't usually get involved here either, but I do read.

Fp and Va, perfectly said. :thumbsup:

[UndertheWire]

FP, of course I agree with you, and Toni, too.

I have to wonder... after what happened at Long Beach and how it all ended in 1980, given 14 years to think about it, Felder had to have realized the errors he'd made, and I'm not talking 'I guess'. They all made errors, so I'm not really wanting to discuss that, but he knew he'd crossed a line that Glenn couldn't and wouldn't handle. Then they have the reunion and he gets asked back. Think about this. His contributions to the band were mostly guitar work, and while he's extremely talented on guitar with a touch that can't really be replicated, it can come close. He's good enough that every one picking up a guitar with the intent to master it wanted to be him, and they learned his craft and style nearly as well as he knew it. So, while they could have gotten someone to replace him who was almost as good, they didn't. So he likely thought he could do what he wanted, push as hard as he wanted, and nothing would happen. The money and fame was good enough he was certain it wouldn't just stop like it had before, either.

Like you said, FP, they could have reformed without him and they didn't. So perhaps he thought it was all fair game and regardless of the warnings from Irving, whom he knew was working both sides, he figured he could push and push and get results. He was wrong. So yes, getting fired came as a complete surprise, and learning he'd miscalculated had to have been gut-wrenching, which was why he immediately went into 'call them all and beg' mode. Far too little and far too late.
VA, I usually agree with you but I think you're being too harsh/one-side in this last post.

Felder was aware that he might be excluded from the reunion - it's in his book. He was also concious that what he was doing irritated/upset Frey - again, it's in his book. All I can think is that he felt he was in the right and that others, including Henley would see his side.Where he miscalculated is that whatever friction there might be between Henley and Frey, they would still stand together against any threats.

I pretty much agree with FP's post. Felder spent most of those 14 years just waiting for the call and when it came, he seems to have expected an idealised version of the 1980s band - all equals but without the coke-induced problems, perhaps. Meanwhile, Frey had been enjoying being "the head of a succesful dictatorship rather than a failed democracy" and there was no way he was going back to the old ways.

I do feel sorry for Felder. While he was resting, the music business moved on without him.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

VA, I usually agree with you but I think you're being too harsh/one-side in this last post.

Felder was aware that he might be excluded from the reunion - it's in his book. He was also concious that what he was doing irritated/upset Frey - again, it's in his book. All I can think is that he felt he was in the right and that others, including Henley would see his side.Where he miscalculated is that whatever friction there might be between Henley and Frey, they would still stand together against any threats.

I pretty much agree with FP's post. Felder spent most of those 14 years just waiting for the call and when it came, he seems to have expected an idealised version of the 1980s band - all equals but without the coke-induced problems, perhaps. Meanwhile, Frey had been enjoying being "the head of a succesful dictatorship rather than a failed democracy" and there was no way he was going back to the old ways.

I do feel sorry for Felder. While he was resting, the music business moved on without him.

Yes, he was aware that he might not have been part of the reunion, but the fact that he was invited back maybe indicated to him they felt they couldn't do it without him. It's JMO, but it meant that for that and other reasons he felt comfortable pushing them. Keeping in mind that the feelings that had been harbored against him in the 70's came from constant pushing, always wanting more of just about everything, and playing Glenn off against Henley and vice-versa, this jumps out at me from about page 311:


Despite Irving’s repeated warnings not to make waves, I never stopped asking to see the various documents that would allow me and my attorneys to assess the deals that Don, Glenn, and Irving were making, especially this new one, which could potentially be our most important. Because of my continued interest in the current negotiations, many of the feelings that had been harbored against me in the seventies and eighties resurfaced. I was made to feel isolated and out of the loop once more. For whatever reason, the Triumvirate didn’t like me asking too many questions.

Maybe because of my newfound courage from having just dealt with the unhappiness of my marriage, I didn’t take Irving’s warnings too seriously. Susan and I had a long way to go before we’d be talking again, but the fact that I had faced up to the demise of my marriage and come out the other side lulled me into a false sense of security as to how much I could push a situation. Incident after incident with Don, Glenn, and Irving made me realize that the time was coming when I would have to stand up to “The Gods” as well, and say or do something to stop them treating the rest of us like lowly subordinates.

ETA: Perhaps I am too hard on him...I re-read parts of the book again last night and I'm irked all over again.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Regarding the 'bias' we seem to have, and those like BTS who watch the documentary and read the book and have 'unbiased' opinions, what it really means is that those who really follow the band have read and listened to all the interviews given by all parties throughout the decades. We don't have all the facts, because only Glenn, Don, Irving, Felder and their lawyers have all those. But we have more facts than those who have only watched the documentary and read the book.

[chaim]

I would very much like to know how much Don (F) was really thinking about Bernie and Randy when he sued. It seems to me that he wasn't worrying about them that much when he was in the Eagles. But what do I know...

I would also like to know if those "remember Bernie and Randy" threats actually happened that he menions in the book, or if it was just something he felt.

[UndertheWire]

Ok, that certainly sounds pushy. I'd forgotten about that part.

I also wonder if the increased confidence came from the success of HFO and the Millenium concerts. He must have thought he had a better negotiating position that in 1994 when he'd been retired for 10 years.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

First of all, kudos to everyone who has kept this discussion civil.

I don't contribute much to this thread anymore because, quite honestly, as a long time board member, I'm kinda burnt out on the subject after following it for almost 15 years. I don't say that to pass judgment though because I realize that this is very intriguing stuff to talk about for some folks. However, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people form their opinion on unknown or uninformed facts so I will often chime in if I feel things are being misstated or misrepresented. In this case, I think it is important to clarify that under the terms of the 1994 contract, Felder was no longer a 1/3 owner of Eagles, Inc. As stated in his book, he, Joe, and Tim each received 1/7 of the earnings; Don H. and Glenn received 2/7’s apiece. I totally get how people can watch or hear something and have a gut reaction to it. But, I think we all know that first impressions usually aren't that accurate because most things in real life are much more complex.

I've said this all before about this subject, but there are some people who believe that less information makes you more objective. I happen to believe if you don’t have all the facts in a situation, then there is no way that you are able to judge the situation in an unbiased manner. So, that includes all of us here since none of us are in that position. However, the more information and perspectives that we do have enables us to judge a situation more objectively. I realize this is a very long thread, but if I must say so myself, I believe it is very informative. Is it biased - yes, it is ... but biased opinions on all sides of the issue are well-represented. There also happens to be a lot of factual information here as well, particularly about the details of what is publicly known about the lawsuit. So, IMHO, for anyone who is truly interested in learning more about the topic, it is very worthwhile reading. I certainly don't claim to know everything there is to know about the band, but I have been following Felder's dismissal very closely ever since it happened. The more I read, hear, and see, the more insight I have gotten. For me, more is better when it comes to discussing any topic.

[MaryCalifornia]

Can someone remind me what Glenn said in HoTE regarding Felder, Joe's sobriety, and HFO? Didn't it come across that at the time, they weren't sure about Joe - that they were forced to bring Felder in because the needed at least one of them? I might be "mis-remembering," but I was left with the impression, just from those few words, that if they had known that Joe would be good to go, they would not have needed to keep Felder around. However, the uncertainty of Joe's ability to tour and the resulting possibility of only 3 Eagles being involved was not a risk they were willing to take, which is understandable. Too bad hindsight is 20/20!!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I remember Irving saying they needed Joe or Felder or preferably both.

[sodascouts]

From the transcript (http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=history-of-the-eagles-part-one):


"We had to get Joe into some sort of rehab, and we couldn't be sure it was going to work. So we better have Felder. The Eagles reunion had better have at least one of the two of them, and hopefully both."

[VAisForEagleLovers]

From the transcript (http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=history-of-the-eagles-part-one):


"We had to get Joe into some sort of rehab, and we couldn't be sure it was going to work. So we better have Felder. The Eagles reunion had better have at least one of the two of them, and hopefully both."


Thank you, Soda, I guess. I was all set to take one for the team and watch it again so I could get the direct quote. Maybe I will anyway, just to make sure the transcript is correct. :wink:

[Funk 50]

Going back to the original split in 1981, it was obvious, from the first few solo albums, that Glenn was the reason that the Eagles split up.

All the other guys continued to work together.

Glenn had appeared on Joe Walsh's three previous solo albums, plus the Fogelberg album, Souvenirs, that Joe produced but he was the only Eagle that didn't show up on either There Goes The Neighborhood or You Bought It, You Name It.

I noticed that Glenn didn't work with any of the other Eagles on his solo albums and he was the missing Eagle on the Fast Times At Ridgemount High soundtrack.

Joe, Tim and Don (H) all play on each others albums although I was very disappointed to learn, after buying Felder's Airborne LP, that Joe wasn't on it. I decided Felder was a bit of a cheap skate and was tight with his money. Henley and Felder both appear on Stevie Nick's fabulous, The Highwayman, from around the same era, and they also did Heavy Metal so there didn't seem to be any major friction with Felder.

When Henley mentioned that some of the old issues were still festering, during the HFO tour, I thought he was referring to Glenn. It wasn't until Felder was fired that I realised that Felder had been the major source of friction in the band. I though he'd just be delighted to get another run at one of the best jobs in the world.

Does Don mention his relationships with the other Eagles, after the 1981 split, in his book. ie How come Joe isn't on Airborne.

[Freypower]

Well, Glenn 'left' the Eagles, so if you wish to state that that means he was 'the reason' they split up, I guess you can. He left, and they broke up. It's that simple. No, he didn't work with the others until he patched up his relationship with Don in 1985. He had had enough of them. That was his choice. Tim & Don worked with Felder only on the track Heavy Metal & never again. Just because Henley & Felder are both on The Highwayman doesn't mean they necessarily saw each other; in any case they were doing a job. I have no idea whether or not this means there was no friction with him. Given they never worked with him again until HFO, draw your own conclusions.

In fact Tim appears on Soul Searchin' on the track Some Kind Of Blue. He is also in the video for the song. He sings backup.

I have no idea why Joe isn't on Airborne & I think this thread is starting to veer off topic.

[UndertheWire]

I thought it was well-known that Glenn was the reason the band broke up in 1981. There are interviews from around 1982 that make this clear.

Timothy did backing vocals on Some Kind of Blue on Soul Searchin' and also a radio ad that Glenn did around the same time. Also, Glenn was going to produce one of Timothy's solo albums. There are interviews where Glenn said he had no problems with Timothy who was "a sweetheart".

Felder mentions going sailing with Joe on Joe's boat but nothing about why Joe didn't play on his Airborne. I think he says he recorded Airborne in his home studio so he didn't have the cost of booking a studio. He does mention a call from either Joe or Irving asking if Joe could develop one of the unused tracks from The Long Run sessions, and Don said he wanted to use it himself.

Felder also says that Henley offered him a job as guitarist on Henley's first solo tour but that he turned it down because he wanted to be with his family and because he was only offered a sideman's pay.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Felder also says that Henley offered him a job as guitarist on Henley's first solo tour but that he turned it down because he wanted to be with his family and because he was only offered a sideman's pay.

This is news to me, UTW, I'm not sure how I didn't know it before. Was he just looking for more money, or was he looking for equal billing, do you know?

[UndertheWire]

Here's what he says:

When Don Henley invited me on the road with him for his first solo tour, I turned him down. Not only did I not want to tour again, but the salary he offered was five thousand dollars a week - that of a sideman, not a band member or the lead gutarist of the Eagles. He made the offer through Irving, instead of calling me direct, and I wrote and told him that I wasn't really interested, despite my enormous respect for him as a singer and songwriter. His letter of reply said, "I don't see any reason why we can't write together and remain in touch," and so we did. I'd send him tapes now and then, and he came and sang on a few records for me, but he was writing with Danny Kortchmar and other people he felt were fresh and new. He was enjoying heading in a different direction and that was cool.
I doubt he was looking for equal billing but some recognition of his status.

Also, when Joe wanted to record that Long Run outtake, the approach came through Irving.

[chaim]

I think Don made it clear in his book that he was worth more as a musician. He said nothing of an equal billing. He had been a member of the Eagles, played on many Eagles hits and co-written their biggest song, so it makes sense that he wants to be paid more than just another backing musician or he won't do it.

[SilverMoon]

Tim & Don worked with Felder only on the track Heavy Metal & never again.
Timothy sang backup on four songs on Don Felder’s album Airborne. In the early nineties, Don Felder and Timothy tried to put a band together with Paul Carrack and Max Carl.

[Freypower]

Timothy sang backup on four songs on Don Felder’s album Airborne. In the early nineties, Don Felder and Timothy tried to put a band together with Paul Carrack and Max Carl.

Fair enough on the first point, but on the second, the attempt failed. If any recordings were made they were never issued. They never played any gigs. So whille this could count as them working together, it never had a concrete result.