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UndertheWire
07-06-2015, 05:07 AM
In the context of whether the former-Eagles continued to work together, I think recording a demo is relevant regardless of whether they were able to release any material. It's also relevant that earlier, Don F had decided he couldn't work with Joe because of Joe's condition. As this was all during the thaw of the early 90s, it doesn't tell us too much of how they felt in 1981 although it does seem that nobody ever had a problem with Timothy.

With respect to the timing of the failed Felder-Schmit-Walsh-Reid band, there's sentence in the section of the attempted 1990 reunion that places it earlier. After they learned Glenn wasn't going to join them, the idea of doing it without Glenn came up:

No one really wanted that. Our hearts weren't in it, especially not after my failed attempt with Timothy and Joe.Just for completeness, the "Malibu Men's Choir" that Sivermoon referred to, seems to have been in 1992/93 as Timothy mentioned it as a future plan when he was touring with Ringo Starr in the summer of 1992.

UndertheWire
07-06-2015, 09:33 AM
When Henley mentioned that some of the old issues were still festering, during the HFO tour, I thought he was referring to Glenn. It wasn't until Felder was fired that I realised that Felder had been the major source of friction in the band.
My view is Henley was referring to both issues between himself and Frey and between Felder and Frey. I've seen post-Felder comments from Henley where he talks about people making things harder than they need to be and even "random victims" so I'm inclined to believe Felder when he writes that when Frey is unhappy or stressed, he takes it out on other people. However, Felder seemed to focus all his own discontent on Frey and let it show, which in turn made Frey unhappy. Removing Felder removed a major source of friction.

Some might naively suggest that a better solution would have been to removed Frey, but, as Henley put it in 1990, without Glenn it would be Don Henley and his backing band. There's also that Frey seems to be the silent workhorse of the band, particularly behind-the-scenes dealing with the unglamorous side of hiring-and-firing, dealing with management, agents, publicists, sound, lighting. Henley has said he's happy to let Frey take charge. Oddly, Felder never acknowledges this aspect but instead complains about not being consulted or having his views ignored.

Funk 50
07-06-2015, 02:54 PM
Here's what he says:

" When Don Henley invited me on the road with him for his first solo tour, I turned him down. Not only did I not want to tour again, but the salary he offered was five thousand dollars a week - that of a sideman, not a band member or the lead gutarist of the Eagles. He made the offer through Irving, instead of calling me direct, and I wrote and told him that I wasn't really interested, despite my enormous respect for him as a singer and songwriter. His letter of reply said, "I don't see any reason why we can't write together and remain in touch," and so we did. I'd send him tapes now and then, and he came and sang on a few records for me, but he was writing with Danny Kortchmar and other people he felt were fresh and new. He was enjoying heading in a different direction and that was cool. "

I doubt he was looking for equal billing but some recognition of his status.

Also, when Joe wanted to record that Long Run outtake, the approach came through Irving.

Thanks a lot UndertheWire, more testament to Henley's loyalty .... and Felder's questionable opinion of his worth and how he focussed on the finances.

It partly explains why Felder didn't do much music until HFO. I'm sure they were all working with lower budgets after the initial split.

Joe released two, The Long Run Outtakes and Felder plays on both. It's quite possible that Felder's contributions could have been recorded during The Long Run Sessions, rather than while the albums were being made. Maybe Felder's contributions to But Seriously Folks were The Long Run rejects too.

I joined Joe's fan club in 1992 and the press release I received says Joe was forming a band with Frankie Miller, Nicky Hopkins, Chrissy Stewart, and Ian Wallace, with Bill Szymczyk as producer. A few tracks surfaced on the Robocop soundtrack. There was no mention of the Malibu Men's Choir.

As far as I know, the record company told Felder that they needed Joe, if they wanted a record contract. I can't see Joe joining a group, that he'd be subordinate to Felder.

All the Eagles seem happy to let Glenn take charge. It's a pity Don (F) wasn't.

DJ
07-06-2015, 02:58 PM
My view is Henley was referring to both issues between himself and Frey and between Felder and Frey. I've seen post-Felder comments from Henley where he talks about people making things harder than they need to be and even "random victims" so I'm inclined to believe Felder when he writes that when Frey is unhappy or stressed, he takes it out on other people. However, Felder seemed to focus all his own discontent on Frey and let it show, which in turn made Frey unhappy. Removing Felder removed a major source of friction.

Some might naively suggest that a better solution would have been to removed Frey, but, as Henley put it in 1990, without Glenn it would be Don Henley and his backing band. There's also that Frey seems to be the silent workhorse of the band, particularly behind-the-scenes dealing with the unglamorous side of hiring-and-firing, dealing with management, agents, publicists, sound, lighting. Henley has said he's happy to let Frey take charge. Oddly, Felder never acknowledges this aspect but instead complains about not being consulted or having his views ignored.

Oh I agree UW Glenn is the cog that runs the wheel. Without him well we all know it wouldn't have been as good, even though Henley is a perfectionist.

chaim
07-06-2015, 03:07 PM
I don't quite agree on the "questionable opinion of his worth and how he focused on the finances" thing. I don't think any of them would have played behind another ex-Eagle for minimum wage (well, I don't recall if it was actually minimum wage, but anyway...). And I don't see it as Don focusing on finances. I see it as a matter of principle.

UndertheWire
07-06-2015, 03:16 PM
I joined Joe's fan club in 1992 and the press release I received says Joe was forming a band with Frankie Miller, Nicky Hopkins, Chrissy Stewart, and Ian Wallace, with Bill Szymczyk as producer. A few tracks surfaced on the Robocop soundtrack. There was no mention of the Malibu Men's Choir.

As far as I know, the record company told Felder that they needed Joe, if they wanted a record contract. I can't see Joe joining a group, that he'd be subordinate to Felder.

According to Felder, he made two attempts to put together a band with Schmit. The first attempt also included Walsh and Terry Reid and they were offered a record advance that Walsh considered to be insulting and lost his temper. Felder decided he couldn't work with Joe. Later on, Felder and Schmit recorded a demo with (I think) Paul Carrack, Peter Capaldi and Max Carl which they jokingly called the "Malibu Men's Choir" but they didn't get a record deal. Felder suggests that Azoff didn't try very hard because he had hopes of an Eagle reunion (always someone else's fault).

Funk 50
07-06-2015, 04:57 PM
Thanks again UTW, I'm not sure about the Malibu Men's Choir but the Felder, Walsh, Schmit, Reid, thing sounds promising.

If Don Henley asks Don Felder to be his tour guitarist, I don't see how he's entitled to more money than the rest of the band. I can't see him effecting the size of the audience.

sodascouts
07-06-2015, 05:49 PM
Later on, Felder and Schmit recorded a demo with (I think) Paul Carrack, Peter Capaldi and Max Carl which they jokingly called the "Malibu Men's Choir" but they didn't get a record deal.

Oh my gosh - is this the same Peter Capaldi that is the 12th Doctor on Doctor Who?! I'm a huge Doctor Who fan so how very cool if true!

UndertheWire
07-06-2015, 06:08 PM
Aarrgh! Wrong Capaldi. Jim? Even then. I'm not confident.

ETA: Yes, I was thinking of Jim Capaldi and he had a writing credit on one of their demo songs but wasn't in the group.

OT: I haven't warmed to Peter Capaldi, yet. I missed an episode early on in the last series and the started recording rather than watching.

Freypower
07-06-2015, 06:13 PM
Oh my gosh - is this the same Peter Capaldi that is the 12th Doctor on Doctor Who?! I'm a huge Doctor Who fan so how very cool if true!

I would have thought perhaps it was the late Jim Capaldi, ex Traffic, who had a solo hit with his version of Love Hurts.

Funk 50
07-07-2015, 11:57 AM
Joe Walsh came to England to sing a few Jim Capaldi tracks at his Tribute concert, including Love Will keep Us Alive which he wrote for the Malibu Men's Choir project with, Pete Vale and Paul Carrack.

I've read this bit of Heaven And Hell. It's on Google Books with a horrendously long address but also here;

http://librarun.org/book/54073/267



I got a link to this facebook conversation today:


Earl Bross‎ >> Don Felder

Hi Don. Any chance of you and Joe Walsh getting together to jam or maybe make a small tour of your selected works in selected world cities? (Like Hamburg Germany for example?) You and Joe "ROCK".

Don Felder
Hi Earl, That sounds like great fun. I'm game but you'll have to work on Joe. DF

Jeff Parsons

Don, Joe would be a bonus but come to England on your own anyway; we'd love to hear the guy that the Eagles couldn't replace.

There's been no response, yet from Felder about a solo visit. :)

WalshFan88
07-07-2015, 06:56 PM
I would love for Walsh and Felder to play together but I don't think it'll happen, as I think if it were to happen, he'd be back in the Eagles.

What I mean by that is, Joe is not going to be involved with him unless he feels the whole band is ok with it, and if the whole band is ok with it (which won't happen), then why wouldn't he be back in the band.

I don't think Joe wants to rock the boat. He's in a good spot and we know his feelings on being solo vs in a band. He WANTS to be in the Eagles, and I don't think he would risk that, even if Glenn would be ok with it just for fear of making it uncomfortable. I know I personally hate feeling that tension as I carry it myself when I'm having to be in the middle of two friends that don't care for each other.

I say - until everyone is on good terms with Felder (which probably won't happen), a solo stint with those two will never happen, and if it ever does - I look for him to be back in the band at that point or shortly thereafter.

Funk 50
07-08-2015, 05:10 AM
It'd be great for Felder to share the bill with Joe but I don't see what Joe would get out of it.

Despite never actually bad mouthing Felder, to my knowledge, I believe Joe (and Tim) were in complete support of The Eagles decision to fire Felder.

With his subsequent book and legal actions, Felder's built a wall that he doesn't seem to notice is there. All the Eagles are on the other side, maybe even Randy.

Brooke
07-08-2015, 10:04 AM
I don't think it will ever, ever happen. I completely agree with everything Austin and F50 said.

chaim
07-08-2015, 11:27 AM
It'd be great for Felder to share the bill with Joe but I don't see what Joe would get out of it.

Despite never actually bad mouthing Felder, to my knowledge, I believe Joe (and Tim) were in complete support of The Eagles decision to fire Felder.

With his subsequent book and legal actions, Felder's built a wall that he doesn't seem to notice is there. All the Eagles are on the other side, maybe even Randy.

If Timothy's and Joe's "go for it" actually happened, like Don says in his book, they weren't completely on the side of "The Gods".

UndertheWire
07-08-2015, 11:57 AM
I wonder if he heard what he wanted to hear. They may have been supportive or they may have just wanted him to do something rather than keep complaining to them about it. Timothy sounds pretty fed up with Felder even in Felder's book.

chaim
07-08-2015, 12:08 PM
Perhaps it was like that. If there had been a lot of "go ahead and show those b******s" stuff going on from Timothy and Joe, there should have been at least some friction in the band at some point after Felder was fired.

Funk 50
07-08-2015, 05:48 PM
If Timothy's and Joe's "go for it" actually happened, like Don says in his book, they weren't completely on the side of "The Gods".

I don't know the context of Tim and Joe encouraging Don to "go for it". I'm pretty sure they both advised Don to sign the contract, although that may have been retrospectively after he had already suffered the consequences of being disagreeable.

They may have been sympathetic with Felder after he was fired. I can't see them being so after he attacked the band with his book and the legal action.

If Felder was moaning about the "gods" and threatening to take 'em down a notch, I'd have been egging him on too, as UTW suggests, just to shut him up. :ack:

AlreadyGone95
07-09-2015, 04:07 PM
I finally got to check the book out from the library. Will start reading as soon as I can. I already looked at the photos of Glenn Frey and Don Henley... yikes!

ETA: Though if I find out that he's a Florida Gators fan (Gainsville is where the university is located), I won't be happy. I'm a die hard Georgia Bulldogs fan!

jms18222
07-09-2015, 05:59 PM
ETA: My hero, by the way, is Roberto Clemente. Everyone else is just human. Also, several on this board have been asked, by him, to call him Glenn.

He's mine too! I remember being so broken hearted when I heard he was killed in that plane crash. It was too painful to watch the Pirates play after that hence my switch to the Dodgers. I am going to see the Pirates & Dodgers play in August and can finally see his statue.

I finished reading Heaven & Hell. It is what it is, one man's point of view. I appreciate all of the Eagles past & present. 1 week to Atlantic City.

VAisForEagleLovers
07-09-2015, 06:41 PM
He's mine too! I remember being so broken hearted when I heard he was killed in that plane crash. It was too painful to watch the Pirates play after that hence my switch to the Dodgers. I am going to see the Pirates & Dodgers play in August and can finally see his statue.

I finished reading Heaven & Hell. It is what it is, one man's point of view. I appreciate all of the Eagles past & present. 1 week to Atlantic City.

Broken hearted is exactly the right description, and I think I did take a step back from baseball for a few years after that, but not for long!

As far as the book, I'd say it's one man's point of view told through the lens of what the publisher wanted in order to sell books. As Henley said, 'they want Dirty Laundry'.

chaim
07-10-2015, 03:23 AM
As far as the book, I'd say it's one man's point of view told through the lens of what the publisher wanted in order to sell books. As Henley said, 'they want Dirty Laundry'.

Wasn't there even more dirt initially, but the Frey/Henley/Azoff camp managed to have it removed - or something like that? (Aaargh, I should read all the pages all over again.)

UndertheWire
07-10-2015, 05:05 AM
Possibly the book was edited because some of it could be considered libellous. After the briefest research...

With libel, an untrue statement must be given as fact. US law is far stricter for private rather than public figures, but UK law does not distinguish, which is why celebrities have tended to bring libel cases in the UK. As the book was likely to be published in the UK at some point, it would make sense to conform to UK libel laws.

My impresssion is that the facts as described in Felder's book are not too bad and the nasty stuff is mostly given as an opinion and therefore not covered by libel laws.

I don't know where the burden of proof lies - does a statement have to be proved true or false?

Apart from that, I'd guess the book included some details that broke non-confidentiality agreements.

And finally, Felder may just have agreed to remove some parts as part of a deal in which Azoff would call his lawyers off.

GlennLover
07-10-2015, 06:07 AM
If I recall correctly, there was info about their finances that was objected to. I'm sure there were other things as well.

VAisForEagleLovers
07-10-2015, 07:55 AM
Besides libel, there's also slander to worry about, and where one doesn't get you, the other will.

Yes, there were things in lawsuit about the book, and while it was implied by both sides that it had to do with financial matters and especially the details of the settlement, you can bet that it was more than that.

UndertheWire
07-10-2015, 09:05 AM
I may have this wrong but I believe slander is spoken and libel is written and they are both defamation.

VAisForEagleLovers
07-10-2015, 09:15 AM
This is from an article I just posted in Felder's tour thread for the Arcada show:


"To this day, I still don't get it," Felder told me. "We all did our thing that made the band grow, and we should have all shared in it equally."

So, he still doesn't get it. Maybe I'll give my thoughts on this later when I can organize them in a printable fashion.

cynd1231
07-10-2015, 10:09 AM
VA, if he hasn't 'gotten it' yet after all this time, he never will!

UndertheWire
07-10-2015, 11:09 AM
From the link VA posted above:

I then asked him about their 1998 induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and he appeared somewhat emotional. "It was an incredible night, we were all together, having fun with a great sense of pride. We put our differences on a shelf that night, and it was actually heartwarming."
That's not how he described in in the book.

As for the other, it's just two different views of the situation. Frey thought paying everyone the same was unfair and that's a valid view, too. Perhaps if Felder could stop thinking of it in simplistic terms like "greed", he might start to "get it".

Funk 50
07-11-2015, 05:16 AM
Wasn't there even more dirt initially, but the Frey/Henley/Azoff camp managed to have it removed - or something like that? (Aaargh,

As Henley once sharply retorted to an interviewer, "it wasn't us, it was the law."
or words to that effect.



I then asked him about their 1998 induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and he appeared somewhat emotional. "It was an incredible night, we were all together, having fun with a great sense of pride. We put our differences on a shelf that night, and it was actually heartwarming."

Maybe they weren't getting paid for that show.

Do stars get paid for awards shows?

WalshFan88
07-11-2015, 05:39 PM
Wow. The emotional heartwarming feeling is NOT what he said in his book, lol, where he talked about certain members mics and guitars not being plugged in and the fact that a couple of them were treated not-so-nice backstage.

I love Felder, and feel he got a raw deal but I have to say, he is quite a revisionist. I have to say though it seems not just related to band stuff. He's been interviewed about the gear he used on HC, and he gives different answers to different interviewers. The 59 Les Paul and Tweed Deluxe is the only thing he answers consistently. He's said a Martin was used for the intro, then a Takamine another time. Then one time he said he used a chorus and delay pedal on it, and an other time he said "no effects".

VAisForEagleLovers
07-11-2015, 07:17 PM
Wow. The emotional heartwarming feeling is NOT what he said in his book, lol, where he talked about certain members mics and guitars not being plugged in and the fact that a couple of them were treated not-so-nice backstage.

I love Felder, and feel he got a raw deal but I have to say, he is quite a revisionist. I have to say though it seems not just related to band stuff. He's been interviewed about the gear he used on HC, and he gives different answers to different interviewers. The 59 Les Paul and Tweed Deluxe is the only thing he answers consistently. He's said a Martin was used for the intro, then a Takamine another time. Then one time he said he used a chorus and delay pedal on it, and an other time he said "no effects".

While I definitely agree that he says what he thinks his listeners want to hear, I do wonder about the gear. I mean, there's gear he used to come up with the chord progression, there's the gear used to record, there's the gear used on tour. Then there's what he used for HFO and that recording. Then there's what he may have used for the RRHOF show, and there's what he uses now. To be honest, they were all so freaking high when recording, would he really remember?

WalshFan88
07-11-2015, 07:43 PM
While I definitely agree that he says what he thinks his listeners want to hear, I do wonder about the gear. I mean, there's gear he used to come up with the chord progression, there's the gear used to record, there's the gear used on tour. Then there's what he used for HFO and that recording. Then there's what he may have used for the RRHOF show, and there's what he uses now. To be honest, they were all so freaking high when recording, would he really remember?

True. He was being asked though about what he used on record (I should have specified) and while the electric guitar and amp never changes, he goes back and forth between Martin and Takamine as the 12 string used, and no effects and effects on the record.

I think your last sentence describes that pretty well lol.

AlreadyGone95
07-12-2015, 03:22 PM
Well, I just got done reading the book a little while ago. I'll try to read it 1 or 2 more times before I have to check it back in to the library.
I really did enjoy reading about Don Felder's upbringing. It's cool, at least to me, to read about his roots ( Plus, I live a few hours from Gainesville and that area of Florida, so when he describes some things, I completely understand what he means). I also loved learning that he helped teach Tom Petty how to play guitar.

I don't want to talk much about the "hell" because it's already been talked about so much in this thread. I do agree that there's too much hell and too little heaven. My opinion about the guys hasn't changed (I didn't think that it would).

The book wasn't as bad of read as I thought it would be. I admit that there were a few times toward the end of the book when I got upset and I wanted to throw the book down, though lol.

NightMistBlue
07-13-2015, 11:32 AM
This is a (very) minor matter, but since we're talking about Felder's upbringing, isn't it unusual that he doesn't have a trace of a Southern accent? Tom Petty does, and he moved away from Gainesville decades ago. And I don't think Petty came from as rural - even backwoods - a background as Don F.

Maybe his Southern accent comes back if he's really angry or has had a few drinks :)

Olivia
07-13-2015, 11:40 AM
This is a (very) minor matter, but since we're talking about Felder's upbringing, isn't it unusual that he doesn't have a trace of a Southern accent? Tom Petty does, and he moved away from Gainesville decades ago. And I don't think Petty came from as rural - even backwoods - a background as Don F.

Maybe his Southern accent comes back if he's really angry or has had a few drinks :)

I have friends and family in Florida and none of them have accents.

I have always felt reading this discussion and other posts about Don Felder that he is not given the praise he deserves. He proved on the albums he played on that he contributes quite a bit to the band, gives it a unique sound with his guitar playing. I don't believe in my opinion it's fair to say any one player is more important than another.

NightMistBlue
07-13-2015, 12:08 PM
I have friends and family in Florida and none of them have accents.

It depends on what part of Florida you're from - some parts aren't Southern (with a capital S) at all, but Gainesville is most definitely. And I think the Felder family had roots there IIRC, they weren't people who moved there after being established somewhere else, like Bernie's family.

AlreadyGone95
07-13-2015, 12:10 PM
This is a (very) minor matter, but since we're talking about Felder's upbringing, isn't it unusual that he doesn't have a trace of a Southern accent? Tom Petty does, and he moved away from Gainesville decades ago. And I don't think Petty came from as rural - even backwoods - a background as Don F.

Maybe his Southern accent comes back if he's really angry or has had a few drinks :)

Well, Gainsville is not exactly what I think of when I think of the south. I've always considered Florida to be almost two different states, above Gainsville to be southern. Below Gainsville (ie Ocala and below), not so much. For example, If you take the scenic route from Dothan, Alabama to Panama City, Florida, Florida highway 77 vs. Innerstate 231, which is the main route, you really wouldn't think that you were in Florida. Until you get to Lynn Heaven (suburb of Panama City), it looks liie Georgia or Alabama. If you go below Gainesville (middle of Florida), you're either going to Orlando,Miami, Tampa, the keys or Daytona Beach. That's not southern and neither are most of the people.

Given that he now has no trace of a southern accent, I have to think that his wasn't strong to begin with. Not all southern people have a strong accent. My mom has lived all 54 years of her life in either Georgia or South Carolina, yet she only has a small trace of an accent. Meanwhile, I have a natural somewhat strong southern accent.

AlreadyGone95
07-13-2015, 12:20 PM
I really don't consider Gainsville to be southern. The only really southern thing about it is that its home to the Florida Gators (booo!). (I actually wore a Georgia Bulldogs Football shirt to the Gainsville mall the day of the Bulldogs vs. Gators football game a few years back. I'm surprised that I didn't get beat up :hilarious:)

Gainsville is right on the borderline for my above splitting of Florida.

VAisForEagleLovers
07-13-2015, 01:38 PM
I have always felt reading this discussion and other posts about Don Felder that he is not given the praise he deserves. He proved on the albums he played on that he contributes quite a bit to the band, gives it a unique sound with his guitar playing. I don't believe in my opinion it's fair to say any one player is more important than another.

I don't feel he gets the credit he deserves as a guitar player with a good ear for overall sound. He hasn't joined another band where he can stand out by playing ear-splitting guitar riffs, and apparently, those who make note of great guitarists are looking for that. He is very underrated, IMO, for the talent he has. To me, one of his most vocal critics on a few things, there is absolutely no disputing is talent, and when I see one of those stupid lists of great guitar players that don't have his name on it, or high enough to suit me, I reply or send an email.

jms18222
07-14-2015, 01:14 AM
My issue with this book is Felder contradicts himself many times. Wanted to talk to Joe over a beer after being fired from the band; a man who can never have a drink again.
He complains that he had to pay to bring a special mattress for Don Henley but then goes into detail about Genn & Don renting an unfurnished red house in the middle of nowhere & slept in sleeping bags in order to be able to write without distraction.
No one forced him to be unfaithful to his wife or use substances. The other guys were single & under no such constraints. If this was such an issue then leave the band like Bernie & Randy did otherwise stop with this resentment.
Bottom line is without Frey & Henley the Eagles would have remained i the 1970's. There wasn't an Eagles group without BOTH those guys. The Eagles have continued & have been successful without Don Felder.
I used to really like Felder but after reading his book, he really annoyed me with his constant references to "The Gods". Should have given it a rest after a chapter or 2.
Just my 2 cents.

UndertheWire
07-14-2015, 05:33 AM
I took "talking over a beer" as just an inappropriate figure of speech.

chaim
07-14-2015, 06:58 AM
I have always felt reading this discussion and other posts about Don Felder that he is not given the praise he deserves. He proved on the albums he played on that he contributes quite a bit to the band, gives it a unique sound with his guitar playing. I don't believe in my opinion it's fair to say any one player is more important than another.

IMO Don sometimes gives himself TOO much credit. Does now and did when he had just joined. For example, like I've complained before, in the book he says that Randy and Bernie were just as responsible for the first GH album becoming such a hit as Glenn, Don H and himself. IMO that's a plain lie. He strums an acoustic (if even that) on one song (Lyin' Eyes), plays a bit of lead with Glenn on one (Already Gone) and very much helped arrange one song and played lead on it (OOTN). Maybe he played a bit of electric on TITTL, but it's barely audible. Randy and Bernie play (and perhaps sing) on all the songs. IMO it's not fair from Don to place himself on the same level as Randy and Bernie there.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 12:16 PM
Imo, I think that Don F has done little work or alot less work than the other 6 guys that have been in the band. Our guys might not have the best track record when it comes to releasing new music, but overall, as individuals, Felder has done the least amount of work both with and without the Eagles. I think he realizes this, so he tries to make his work with the Eagles seem like it made the Eagles. His biggest contribution is no doubt the starting of Hotel California, but he did the music. Either Don H or the Henley/Frey duo wrote the lyrics. For a guy with an amount of guitar playing skill as "Fingers" Felder, he doesn't seem to enjoy showing his fans new material showcasing that talent. You've been free from "The Gods" from over 14 years now, and all you've managed is a book and one album? :eyebrow: (I admit I've not heard either Airborne or Road to Forever yet)

I'm probably repeating what others have said before, though. I read through this thread once, but I can't remember exactly what all was discussed.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 12:19 PM
One other thing. If I was subject to as much abuse as Felder says he was, I'd be happy to get off that rollercoaster! Why would you willingly subject yourself to stuff like that?

UndertheWire
07-14-2015, 12:59 PM
There's so little information on their creative process, that it's hard to tell how much Don Felder contributed beyond playing guitar. They became more successful after he joined and their sound changed but that was a group effort (including Bill Szymczyk) and we can't tell how much of the impetus came from Don. The band had made a decision to push for a harder sound, chose a new producer and recruited Don to help them achieve that move. And then came Joe.

I've heard/read praise from Glenn and Bill, but I can't remember anyone else. Joe? Henley?

Felder has writing credits on 6 Eagles songs. My guess is that he also played a big part in the arrangement of those songs. To me, "Those Shoes", "Victim of Love" and "Visions" sound similar enough to his work on Airborne, to support this whereas the "Memphis R&B" tracks seem more likely to be Glenn's arrangements (maybe with help from Bill who was also a big R&B fan).

On this board, we may be too hard on Don partly as a reaction to the people on youtube and such who give him too much credit for the band's success.

WalshFan88
07-14-2015, 04:50 PM
I disagree on the statement that he's done less than the other guys. Leaving DH and GF out of it for the time being, he's contributed as much to the band as Joe, Tim, Randy, and Bernie has.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 04:58 PM
On this board, we may be too hard on Don partly as a reaction to the people on youtube and such who give him too much credit for the band's success.

I actually kind of agree with this. It seems that most casual fans who read his book think that Felder himself contributed most to the band that he was an original member. :brickwall:

UndertheWire
07-14-2015, 05:22 PM
I disagree on the statement that he's done less than the other guys. Leaving DH and GF out of it for the time being, he's contributed as much to the band as Joe, Tim, Randy, and Bernie has.
I read it as AG was talking about their entire catalog, not just that with the Eagles. So Tim has Poco has lots of work with Poco as well as his solo recordings, Joe has James Gang, Barnstorm and his solo records etc. Don has Flow and two solo records. He's also a bit short on session credits compared with the others, although he must have done a lot of uncredited work in his early days.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 05:37 PM
I disagree on the statement that he's done less than the other guys. Leaving DH and GF out of it for the time being, he's contributed as much to the band as Joe, Tim, Randy, and Bernie has.

I was thinking along the lines of how many of their albums he played on (both studio and live), his musical contributions, and his singing contributions.

*if I've got any info wrong, I apologize.
Albums:

Bernie- played, sang, and wrote (or co-wrote) on the 4 albums he appears on, plus GH.
Randy- same as Bernie, except he did 5 albums, and both GH albums
Joe- 3 studio albums, Eagles Live, HFO, F1 (ok I don't know if F1 counts, but since One Day at a Time is on there...)
Tim- 2 studio albums, Eagles live, HFO, F1
Don F- 3 studio albums(4 if you count OTB), Eagles Live, HFO.

Singing: (studio tracks only)
Bernie- 6 leads
Randy- 8 leads, 1 co-lead
Joe- 4 leads
Tim- 4 leads
Don Felder only sang one song during his tenure- Visions.

Writing: (studio tracks only)
Bernie- 4 by himself, 5 co-writes
Randy- 3 by himself, 4 co-writes
Joe- 2 by himself, 2 co-writes
Timothy- 3 co- writes.
As UTW said, Felder has 6 co writes.

I can see Don F and Joe and Timothy being put in the same group, but Bernie and Randy contributed more while they were in the band

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 05:42 PM
I read it as AG was talking about their entire catalog, not just that with the Eagles. So Tim has Poco has lots of work with Poco as well as his solo recordings, Joe has James Gang, Barnstorm and his solo records etc. Don has Flow and two solo records. He's also a bit short on session credits compared with the others, although he must have done a lot of uncredited work in his early days.

I was actually talking about both with the Eagles and without them. I've done some research (as you can see by my above post). I might be wrong about Felder contributing least to the Eagles. It's a tough call between him and Tim. (Though Felder appeared on more albums than Tim).

If you're talking solo/with other bands, I don't have to do research to know that Felder has done the least amount of work.

WalshFan88
07-14-2015, 05:45 PM
I just disagree with the whole "he needed the Eagles" thing some say or people saying he's not in it for the music and such. I think he's proven his worth and talent with his two solo records. So what he only made two. At least they were great ones. I'd rather an artist put out 2 or 3 great solo albums than 5 solo albums and over half are subpar (not saying any one artist here, just an example).

The reason Bernie and Randy contributed more is because they were in the band longer in the 70s and therefore were naturally on more records. I wouldn't put their worth to the band higher than say DF, but I wouldn't the reverse either. I think all members (outside of Frey and Henley perhaps) have contributed equally in terms of their worth to the band.

Freypower
07-14-2015, 05:59 PM
I disagree on the statement that he's done less than the other guys. Leaving DH and GF out of it for the time being, he's contributed as much to the band as Joe, Tim, Randy, and Bernie has.

He has done hardly any solo work compared with the others. And I know this is personal opinion, but I don't consider either Airborne or Road To Forever 'great'.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 06:00 PM
I don't think that he needed the Eagles. I think that another band would've seen him with Crosby and Nash, and offered him a job.

I haven't heard either of his solo albums, so I'm not going to give an opinion on how great or bad they are. (I'll try to give them a listen sometime in the next few days. Are they available on Spotify?)

2 solo albums over the course of what, 35 years? That's not much. If they great, why not release more? He didn't (or doesn't ) have to tour behind them.

WalshFan88
07-14-2015, 07:22 PM
2 solo albums over the course of what, 35 years? That's not much. If they great, why not release more? He didn't (or doesn't ) have to tour behind them.

He probably wanted to spend time with his kids or take a break. Heck, Garth Brooks took a huge hiatus from being a popular entertainer making lots of money touring and making records to do just that.

They are great albums. He just probably wanted to take a break. His liner notes credits may not show as much of all the session stuff he did probably.

I don't think it was his lack of songwriting by any means.

WalshFan88
07-14-2015, 07:23 PM
He has done hardly any solo work compared with the others. And I know this is personal opinion, but I don't consider either Airborne or Road To Forever 'great'.

I will have to disagree on that. I think they are both really good and proved he's a very capable songwriter and musician.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 07:30 PM
I can understand spending time with his kids, but imo, 2 albums in that time period is pathetic (again my opinion). I'm not gonna pass judgment on his albums until I hear them.

WalshFan88
07-14-2015, 08:13 PM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I just get tired of people saying he wasn't in it for the music or talking about his contributions in a negative light or talking about him needing the Eagles or that he wasn't as talented as the rest. He was definitely every bit as talented. He's done great for himself since the Eagles with his band behind him and is a great singer, player, and writer. I just don't like the whole "the Eagles threw him a bone and made him what he is and he wouldn't be anything without them" vibe I get sometimes.

AlreadyGone95
07-14-2015, 11:30 PM
I'll never say that he was it in only for money because I honestly don't know. I wasn't trying to be negative by saying that he hasn't done as much work as the other guys. I was just trying to point why I think that Don F makes his contributions to the band seem more than they were at times.

Anyway, truce. Agree to disagree :)

Funk 50
07-15-2015, 06:09 AM
I disagree on the statement that he's done less than the other guys. Leaving DH and GF out of it for the time being, he's contributed as much to the band as Joe, Tim, Randy, and Bernie has.

Well WalshFan88, I took this statement as an insult to Joe. While Joe's up the front in the spotlight on stage, singing Rocky Mountain Way, Funk #49, Walk Away, Life's Been Good, In The City, Pretty Maids All In A Row, Ordinary Average Guy, Turn To Stone, Guilty Of The Crime and All Night Long, to name just his own songs, What was Felder doing?

It's no coincidence that Felder's big spotlight moments, One Of These nights and I Can't Tell You Why aren't deemed strong enough to feature in the last 3rd of the show when Joe's kicking ass on guitar.

Bernie and Randy got a 2 1/2 album head start on Felder, I don't think he's caught up.

I'm astonished by how much Felder brings up money. It doesn't seem much of an issue, publicly, with the other guys, although you can't get where they are today without having a real handle on the finances.

chaim
07-15-2015, 06:58 AM
I understand WalshFan's point of view very well. But IMO Don has caused some of the criticism himself. He's been shouting from the rooftops that he's in it for the love of music while Glenn and the other Don are only in it for the money. When you have released two albums in 29 years and keep saying something like that, you will ask for some criticism.

UndertheWire
07-15-2015, 07:19 AM
Going back to the book, I think there's a lot of evidence that Felder is about the music, the money and the adulation. He tried giving up the music and it made him miserable. His need to support his families, his childhood and a feeling of injustice have contributed to his interest in money. And who can doubt that he loves being seen as a rock star, the lead guitarist of the Eagles, the man who wrote Hotel California? None of this is bad. Nor is it that different to other Eagles members, past and present. It's only when he suggests he's more about the music than the others that I roll my eyes.

chaim
07-15-2015, 07:41 AM
Going back to the book, I think there's a lot of evidence that Felder is about the music, the money and the adulation. He tried giving up the music and it made him miserable. His need to support his families, his childhood and a feeling of injustice have contributed to his interest in money. And who can doubt that he loves being seen as a rock star, the lead guitarist of the Eagles, the man who wrote Hotel California? None of this is bad. Nor is it that different to other Eagles members, past and present. It's only when he suggests he's more about the music than the others that I roll my eyes.

Exactly.

VAisForEagleLovers
07-15-2015, 08:00 AM
Like UTW said, the money was always important to all of them, and it is what got him removed from the band. At any rate, what he meant was that the music was more important than the money, and again, 2 albums in 29 years doesn't really prove that out, however, he has been touring a lot lately, and that is music.

To me, for Felder, the most important thing isn't music or money, it's fame. He constantly takes most of the credit for things he didn't do the most of. He downplays others' contributions in order to build his up. IMO, when it came to the Eagles in the 1990's (and before) people thought of Henley and Frey as the leaders, the lead singers, the front men for the band. He wanted it to be Henley, Frey, and Felder, and making the money equal was the first step in achieving that. I say this because of all he's said and done since then, when you look back at events through that light, it kind of makes sense.

Unfortunately, for those that are fans of the Eagles, his constant taking credit for things he didn't do plus his constant denigration of the others has the opposite effect, and we tend to not give him credit for the things he did do. It's human nature, I guess.

WalshFan88
07-15-2015, 12:52 PM
Well WalshFan88, I took this statement as an insult to Joe. While Joe's up the front in the spotlight on stage, singing Rocky Mountain Way, Funk #49, Walk Away, Life's Been Good, In The City, Pretty Maids All In A Row, Ordinary Average Guy, Turn To Stone, Guilty Of The Crime and All Night Long, to name just his own songs, What was Felder doing?

LOL. Well Funk 50, that was not the intention. I never said anything putting Joe down, I just simply put Felder on an even contribution to the band. I'm not talking about solo songs as a contribution to the band. I was referring to the claim about Felder's lack of solo albums. But band wise, I consider him on level playing field as JW, TBS, RM, and BL.

You can take it however you want, but that was not the intention. Certainly I of all people would be the last to bring Joe down. That said, I feel I have to praise Felder's talents and contributions as they seem to be vastly underrated, including by you.

Funk 50
07-15-2015, 04:45 PM
In my opinion, all the positives that Felder brought to the Eagles have been undone by his actions after he was fired. So I'm not even including the stuff, he did, that got him fired.

I'll only except that Felder and Walsh have made an equal contribution to the Eagles after Joe has sued his band mates and published a book to damage their reputations.

MortSahlFan
08-01-2015, 10:47 PM
I bought the e-book on pdf 2 days ago, and it was definitely worth it! Yeah, the "gods" chatter got old quickly.

I just signed on to this site, so I have only read the first 7 pages of this discussion, but remember Felder does mention that it was his friend Bernie who thinks he shouldn't be paid as an equal member. Felder mentions how Glenn in fact said, to the effect of "We've been there, we've all paid our dues"

Eagles did for Felder what Felder did for his wife. Partnership, and without one, the other career couldn't have been possible. And as the success went up, both parties wanted more... I heard Glenn say he wasn't doing the tour unless he was paid more (HFO). I'm split. At first it was Glenn who made the suggestion, the group's philosophy of "brothers" - and so there would be less selfishness. But Glenn and Don's contributions were much more than Felders, so I understand that point.

I was surprised Felder didn't omit how he begged them to come back, Irving and then Glenn. He gives his short-comings while also explaining why.

I know most people are Glenn fans, but always look from the other guys' point of view. Felder might think "I wrote some music for the songs that made us super-league, etc" - also it was also Bernie and Randy who had a bad falling out with Glenn.

Also, never forget how hard it is just to play an instrument, and to a great degree - Felder is a great guitarist, and it shouldn't be taken lightly, but yeah, he made enough money.

I guess it's best never to let the ego get into the way of truth.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-01-2015, 11:07 PM
Actually, I saw quite a bit of Felder's point of view until I read his book. I respect his talent to a great degree, but how he presented his case to the world left a lot to be desired, in my opinion. I lost a lot of respect for him over it. Glenn is my favorite, with Don a close second, but the Eagles are my favorite band, and I can only handle someone ripping on them but for so long. I'd say that not everyone has to like them because I do, but Felder has no problems playing their music when he performs live. So if he's such a fan of theirs, why does he keep bashing on them? At any rate, his narrative destroyed any sympathy I may have had for him, and he's done nothing in the interviews and such since then to win it back.

Funk 50
08-02-2015, 08:21 AM
.... Also, never forget how hard it is just to play an instrument, and to a great degree - Felder is a great guitarist, and it shouldn't be taken lightly...

The more I've learned about the top musicians the more I've realised that what they do goes far beyond just playing an instrument. The relationship they have with their instrument and music in general is obsessional and then some.

I don't think any of the Eagles could stop, even if they wanted too. They've spent a lifetime on a musical journey and are lapping it up for as long as it lasts.

Felder quit the music business in the 80s. I presume it was a financial decision. He's still keen to rekindle a relationship with "The Gods".

DJ
08-02-2015, 07:31 PM
The more I've learned about the top musicians the more I've realised that what they do goes far beyond just playing an instrument. The relationship they have with their instrument and music in general is obsessional and then some.

I don't think any of the Eagles could stop, even if they wanted too. They've spent a lifetime on a musical journey and are lapping it up for as long as it lasts.

Felder quit the music business in the 80s. I presume it was a financial decision. He's still keen to rekindle a relationship with "The Gods".

Unfortunately that will never happen Funk, too much has happened between them. IMO I think that when Glenn and Randy got into the reported "fight" backstage and Randy quit is a reason he wasn't asked back either. Sad but most likely true..

VAisForEagleLovers
08-02-2015, 10:42 PM
Unfortunately that will never happen Funk, too much has happened between them. IMO I think that when Glenn and Randy got into the reported "fight" backstage and Randy quit is a reason he wasn't asked back either. Sad but most likely true..

I don't feel that's true at all, DJ, and given what we've learned about Randy's life since then, I'd say it wouldn't have worked out and one or both parties knew that.

Bernie dumped a beer on Glenn's head and he was invited back.

Felder and Glenn nearly came to blows on stage and backstage in 1980. Felder was asked back for the reunion.

I fail to see why a reported 'fight' backstage between Glenn and Randy would preclude Randy being asked back.

Funk 50
08-03-2015, 07:22 AM
Randy wasn't involved in the HFO Reunion because Glenn decided it was a resumption. A great credit to Glenn as Randy was, by far, the obvious choice of Reunion bassist.

Both Randy and Bernie were invited to join the HOTE tour. Bernie said yes, Randy's wife said no. Don Felder wasn't invited.

I don't think any of the Eagles have had any involvement with Felder since Heaven And Hell.

chaim
08-03-2015, 07:55 AM
I don't feel that's true at all, DJ, and given what we've learned about Randy's life since then, I'd say it wouldn't have worked out and one or both parties knew that.

Bernie dumped a beer on Glenn's head and he was invited back.

Felder and Glenn nearly came to blows on stage and backstage in 1980. Felder was asked back for the reunion.

I fail to see why a reported 'fight' backstage between Glenn and Randy would preclude Randy being asked back.

You fail to see it, because these two things have nothing to do with each other. Or if they do, I'm a bit surprised!

VAisForEagleLovers
08-03-2015, 08:03 AM
Randy wasn't involved in the HFO Reunion because Glenn decided it was a resumption. A great credit to Glenn as Randy was, by far, the obvious choice of Reunion bassist.


I was speaking of the History tour, where Bernie was asked back, and it would have been nice, in everyone's eyes, to have Randy there as well. Randy was NOT a perfect choice for the Resumption/Reunion tour as he wasn't a member of the Eagles when the band split. Timothy was the bassist, and it would be ignorant beyond words to turn him away and go after someone who'd quit. Kind of how I feel about David Lee Roth being back in Van Halen. They were one of my top three bands until they dumped Sammy. I don't care that DLR was the original and in their minds a better fit, it was an ignorant move. It makes me feel quite justified to hear all the reports that Roth is murdering the vocals on their latest tour. (Sorry for the little rant there, but sometimes you reap what you sow).

UndertheWire
08-03-2015, 08:36 AM
There's an interview from the 80s where Glenn said the bassists never gave him any trouble, just the guitarists, so it sounded like he no longer bore a grudge for the backstage "fight". However, I'm sure the decisions about who would be in the reunion/resumption were made by Henley and Azoff, just as much as Frey and that Timothy was a much safer choice.

chaim
08-03-2015, 08:45 AM
One of the bassists left because he'd had enough, and one was sad when the band split and he lost the job he loved. Personally I prefer Randy to Timothy, but to me there's no question who was the right guy to call when they decided to reunite.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-03-2015, 09:04 AM
Especially when Randy quit because he didn't want to sing one of their biggest hits? One that would be expected to be performed night after night if he were there for HFO? I seriously doubt it even crossed their mind to ask him back, especially when Timothy was already an Eagle.

AlreadyGone95
08-03-2015, 12:20 PM
Didn't Glenn dedicate TITTL to Randy at the shows for the HOTE Tour? If so, I'm inclined to believe that they would've had Randy back if he'd been physical able to handle the tour. As for HFO, since it was a resumption, it only msde sense for Timothy to be the bassist. I love Randy and Timothy almost equally, so I really don't have a preference.

Oh btw, VA, I completely agree with you on Van Halen.

NightMistBlue
08-03-2015, 12:26 PM
Both Randy and Bernie were invited to join the HOTE tour. Bernie said yes, Randy's wife said no.

Funk, is that your hunch about Randy's wife or do you have a source for that?

jms18222
08-03-2015, 07:50 PM
I borrowed the book from the library, glad I didn't waste my money on it. I got very tired of hearing "the Gods" references pretty quickly. For the Felder fans to get upset when Glen & Don called him "Mr Felder" is petty since Felder is his name while I have never heard Glen God Frey.
It was just a petty list of the million things that you did to annoy while I act all innocent that got to me. I didn't finish reading it.
It was the 70's, no one was innocent in that band.

MaryCalifornia
08-03-2015, 09:18 PM
Especially when Randy quit because he didn't want to sing one of their biggest hits? One that would be expected to be performed night after night if he were there for HFO? I seriously doubt it even crossed their mind to ask him back, especially when Timothy was already an Eagle.

Yes, this, and the fact that supposedly Randy wanted to "spend more time with his family", which must have been a totally incomprehensible sentiment to Don, Glenn and Timothy in the 70s, is probably another reason. They never had to worry that TBS wouldn't sing his songs or wouldn't put touring with the Eagles first. Same with Joe. They knew they could count on Timothy to commit, 100%.

I would be surprised to know that Randy was actually formally invited to perform on the HOTE tour, for many reasons. There's a difference between not holding any grudge against him and actually opening the show up to him being part of it. Has Glenn or Don said they invited him to perform? Or did they invite him to attend the concerts?

chaim
08-04-2015, 03:16 AM
I borrowed the book from the library, glad I didn't waste my money on it. I got very tired of hearing "the Gods" references pretty quickly. For the Felder fans to get upset when Glen & Don called him "Mr Felder" is petty since Felder is his name while I have never heard Glen God Frey.
It was just a petty list of the million things that you did to annoy while I act all innocent that got to me. I didn't finish reading it.
It was the 70's, no one was innocent in that band.

A very good point. If this has been mentioned already by someone, I've missed it.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-04-2015, 08:56 AM
Personally, I always thought "Mr. Felder" showed a lot of restraint. It gets the message across, without lowering themselves to 'the gods' level.

NightMistBlue
08-04-2015, 09:55 AM
I would be surprised to know that Randy was actually formally invited to perform on the HOTE tour, for many reasons. There's a difference between not holding any grudge against him and actually opening the show up to him being part of it. Has Glenn or Don said they invited him to perform? Or did they invite him to attend the concerts?

Very good point. Leave it to the lawyer! :) AFAIK, all we have is Don H. saying that Randy would have been a part of the History tour if his health allowed.

From what I understand, Randy has not been well enough to perform since the choking accident in late February 2013.

I tried to find out the approximate time that the Eagles asked Bernie to join the tour. The closest indication I could find was that in a radio interview on February 27, 2013 Don Henley said that a former member will rejoin the band for its summer tour.

Funk 50
08-04-2015, 01:10 PM
Funk, is that your hunch about Randy's wife or do you have a source for that?

Devouring all the news about the HOTE tour, since the hints and rumours first started surfacing, the moment that I realised that Randy would not be involved came from a report, either quoting Randy's wife or paraphrasing a conversation the reporter had, had with her. I was stunned!
I'm pretty sure it was before the choking incident too but I'm unsure of the time scale. I don't recall Randy mentioning the HOTE tour at any time. not even to wish then well.


Henley's quote, confirming Bernie's involvement and Randy's omission was;


"Bernie Leadon is definitely on this tour, Randy Meisner, if he were healthy and willing, might have been included, too, but his current health will not permit. We are all wishing him well."


All the Eagles have "Albatross" songs that they have to perform at every show they do. Randy's is Take It To The Limit. He may have left the Eagles due to the pressure of performing it but I bet he's sung it at every show he's done since.

I think Meisner and Felder are lucky that they just have the one such song each and that Take It To The Limit and Hotel California are such great songs.

UndertheWire
08-05-2015, 06:56 AM
There's a short "kind of" review of the book on a newspaper site.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/things-do/applause/2015-08-04/music-turner-cool-reads-make-heat-summer-more-bearable

MaryCalifornia
08-05-2015, 10:20 AM
All the Eagles have "Albatross" songs that they have to perform at every show they do. Randy's is Take It To The Limit. He may have left the Eagles due to the pressure of performing it but I bet he's sung it at every show he's done since.



Now here is an interesting topic.

Would the definition of albatross be a song that was a hit for the Eagles, expected to be sung at every show, our guy is tired of singing it, and it is difficult to sing? If so, my take is that both of Timothy's songs are albatrosses, none of Joe's are, and I will leave it to others to discuss which might be Don's and Glenn's #1 albatross song - their first choice to cut from the show.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-05-2015, 10:30 AM
This is an interesting topic, but perhaps a new thread? This one has gotten off track a bit...

NightMistBlue
08-05-2015, 10:38 AM
Devouring all the news about the HOTE tour, since the hints and rumours first started surfacing, the moment that I realised that Randy would not be involved came from a report, either quoting Randy's wife or paraphrasing a conversation the reporter had, had with her. I was stunned!
I'm pretty sure it was before the choking incident too but I'm unsure of the time scale. I don't recall Randy mentioning the HOTE tour at any time. not even to wish them well.

From what I can glean, the HOTE tour was officially announced on March 21, 2013 but even Henley had publicly talked about a summer tour for almost a month before that. The documentary of course was released in January.

If you say a reporter spoke with Lana Meisner, I take it was a more substantial source than just Internet chatter.

Sorry for going OT.

MortSahlFan
08-05-2015, 09:09 PM
I'm only on Page 27, but I'm new and trying to catch up, but want to say a thing or two.

I've always been an Eagles fan. I was given a birthday ticket from my sister a few weeks ago when they came to Detroit, which is special since me and Glenn grew up kinda close to each other (though I'm only 33).

Usually after a concert, I want to immerse myself more and more. I re-reviewed their songs, found some gems I thought "How could I have missed THIS?" I saw the HOTE, and then read Felder's book. Then I joined here, even though I'm a member of a few other musical and non-musical boards.

I'm a musician, so I've tried to put myself in everyone's shoes, read as much as I can before making comments.

I really respected Glenn for telling Bernie that Felder "paid his dues" and was to be a full member. Great deal for Felder. And he wrote the music for Hotel California which put them in super-league. Without that song, who knows what "could have been". I think the change of pay later probably affected the ego. I think Frey/Henley probably deserved more from the beginning, because they have put the most work in. Everyone pays their dues, but paying dues for another band isn't exactly the same, but those experiences carry over to the new band. To me, the new deal was probably to "correct" overcompensation Frey/Henley gave early on. Also, never underestimate Azoff and others, who can only make money from their profits.

I think because we don't know the contractual details, it's hard for us to FULLY understand the situation, but it's tempting to speak our piece - it's what message boards are for. We also don't know what was redacted from the book.

I just wish they could have made it work. Anyone can play note for note what Felder played, but it's the creating part that's most difficult. If Felder would have written a lot more, I would be 100% on his side. I'm split.

It's too bad the money is never enough. I've played multiple times in multiple continents but never made even close to what they'd make, but once you're at that level, you probably expect it. The business decision could have come down to the numbers; how much business do they lose with the few fans who "ban" the Eagles, compared to how much they save by getting a replacement. Also, the new guy isn't going to complain much, so that part might be more stress relieving. I wish that the guys could have been more empathetic, for their sakes, not the fans.

I do think the "loser" is Felder. No one is every going to scrounge for rent, but when the Eagles do end, it will be without Felder,. The last album was also made without him, and the last few hundred concerts. Maybe this can be a lesson for musicians, hoping that some more good could come out of this. I will keep hoping that the bad feelings go away, again, for their sake. I think it would make us happy if they could focus on the better parts of each person.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-05-2015, 10:18 PM
I'm only on Page 27, but I'm new and trying to catch up, but want to say a thing or two.

I've always been an Eagles fan. I was given a birthday ticket from my sister a few weeks ago when they came to Detroit, which is special since me and Glenn grew up kinda close to each other (though I'm only 33).

Usually after a concert, I want to immerse myself more and more. I re-reviewed their songs, found some gems I thought "How could I have missed THIS?" I saw the HOTE, and then read Felder's book. Then I joined here, even though I'm a member of a few other musical and non-musical boards.

I'm a musician, so I've tried to put myself in everyone's shoes, read as much as I can before making comments.

I really respected Glenn for telling Bernie that Felder "paid his dues" and was to be a full member. Great deal for Felder. And he wrote the music for Hotel California which put them in super-league. Without that song, who knows what "could have been". I think the change of pay later probably affected the ego. I think Frey/Henley probably deserved more from the beginning, because they have put the most work in. Everyone pays their dues, but paying dues for another band isn't exactly the same, but those experiences carry over to the new band. To me, the new deal was probably to "correct" overcompensation Frey/Henley gave early on. Also, never underestimate Azoff and others, who can only make money from their profits.

I think because we don't know the contractual details, it's hard for us to FULLY understand the situation, but it's tempting to speak our piece - it's what message boards are for. We also don't know what was redacted from the book.

I just wish they could have made it work. Anyone can play note for note what Felder played, but it's the creating part that's most difficult. If Felder would have written a lot more, I would be 100% on his side. I'm split.

It's too bad the money is never enough. I've played multiple times in multiple continents but never made even close to what they'd make, but once you're at that level, you probably expect it. The business decision could have come down to the numbers; how much business do they lose with the few fans who "ban" the Eagles, compared to how much they save by getting a replacement. Also, the new guy isn't going to complain much, so that part might be more stress relieving. I wish that the guys could have been more empathetic, for their sakes, not the fans.

I do think the "loser" is Felder. No one is every going to scrounge for rent, but when the Eagles do end, it will be without Felder,. The last album was also made without him, and the last few hundred concerts. Maybe this can be a lesson for musicians, hoping that some more good could come out of this. I will keep hoping that the bad feelings go away, again, for their sake. I think it would make us happy if they could focus on the better parts of each person.

Very well said, MSF, especially the part about it all being a lesson for other musicians, and I would add it should be a lesson to everyone and not just musicians.

MortSahlFan
08-05-2015, 11:46 PM
I came back on here before I went to bed, because I know I forgot to mention how he changed them from a country based to more of a rock group. Also commercially speaking, since we're discussing money, the minute Felder got with the band, instead of going down (2nd album did LESS than the debut), he took them up. I guess I don't think he should have been fired, and compromise with less pay. It would have been nice if he came on for 4-5 songs a night, not as a member for the HOTE tour, which could be their last. Each guy think the album days are over. But who knows, maybe hell can freeze over again? One last rock album with Felder would be a pretty cool way to end their career and go solo and eventually retire. We can dream.

MaryCalifornia
08-06-2015, 02:28 AM
It's too bad the money is never enough.

Welcome, MSF!

You are right. The more successful these guys get, the more money they need. At their level, they have so many employees on their professional staff, and so many on their personal staff. They have to travel by private plane, often solo. They take care of multiple generations of family. Timothy's trust has at least six residences in hyper-expensive locations, and those are just the ones we know about (without even digging for info or stalking) for his immediate family, not even including what he has put up for his mom (recently deceased) and brothers, and Jean's immediate family. Their expenses get so huge, they end up netting just as much after all is said and done as when they grossed less. And, they're thinking about retirement - they want to maintain the same lifestyle without bringing in any touring revenues, so they're trying to stockpile. It really is never enough...they make tens of millions per year and their expenses are tens of millions per year.

chaim
08-06-2015, 02:37 AM
I'll go a bit off-topic now, but since Felder writing the music for HC was mentioned again in this thread, I'll write what just came to mind.

What we often forget is that it's not only about who comes up with the initial spark, but also who recognizes the potential. For example, let's imagine a following scene when some band is rehearsing:

Something interesting comes out of the keyboardist's fingers when he improvises while the guitarists are tuning, but he just keeps going, ignoring what he just played. The guitarist goes "Hey, what did you just play? That was great!". The keyboardist says "Something like this?". The guitar player: "No, right after that. Something like E major with a flat fifth and...". And then the keyboardist probably remembers where his fingers had just been, and the guitarist goes "THAT'S IT!", and together they remember what the keyboardist had played.

Now, does all the credit go to the guy whose fingers happened to play it, but who didn't notice it? None of the credit goes to the guy who noticed it and recognized its potential? Not talking about official writing credit, but "artistic credit" (or however you say that).

Something like what I just described happened often at Genesis rehearsals, according to Mike Rutherford.

Don F gave a few demos to Glenn and Don H. They had a few ideas to choose from. They recognized the potential in a demo that was like "Mexican reggae". It was not Eagles-like material at all, but Glenn and Don recognized something they could build upon, and they did.

I realize that it's not the same as the imagined rehearsal scene, as Don F had carefully constructed the arrangement already. But Don F did not go to Glenn and Don H with the HC demo and say "this is going to be our biggest classic, we must work on this". Instead, as far as I know, Don F went something like "here's a bunch of ideas. Pick what you like". What became HC was just another demo for Don F - not even his favorite in the bunch, unless I'm mistaken (I may be wrong). Personally I give some credit (credit that has nothing to do with official credits) to Glenn and Don H for recognizing that this one demo had something special. Plus, would they have kept working on it if Glenn hadn't gone "This could be about the fantasy of California..." or "I can see this guy driving..."? Who knows.

UndertheWire
08-06-2015, 03:33 AM
I came back on here before I went to bed, because I know I forgot to mention how he changed them from a country based to more of a rock group. Also commercially speaking, since we're discussing money, the minute Felder got with the band, instead of going down (2nd album did LESS than the debut), he took them up.
Hi and welcome!
I see similar comments to those above quite a lot and I find them a bit specious. There's no disputing that On The Border earned more the Desperado or that by Hotel California they were seen as being more rock and less country but what was Felder's part in that?

What did Don Felder do to change them from a country-based to more of a rock group? We know that Frey, Henley and Meisner wanted to move in a more rock direction which is why they changed producer. Szymczyk has said he was only interested in them because they wanted to make this change and it may have been he who suggested they needed a better rock guitarist. At that point, Felder was a tool rather than an initiator of change and whilst he had the skills, he didn't have the reputation as a rock guitarist.

What did Felder contribute to On the Border that made it sell well? He was brought in as a session musician to play on two tracks that had already been written (and one had already been recorded) and neither was a big hit. It was Best of Love, recorded in London with Glyn Johns before Felder joined, that took them to #1.

How much credit should Felder get compared with Joe Walsh? Walsh brought the rock credentials and an identifiable sound.

Funk 50
08-06-2015, 04:51 AM
...does all the credit go to the guy whose fingers happened to play it, but who didn't notice it? None of the credit goes to the guy who noticed it and recognized its potential? Not talking about official writing credit, but "artistic credit"

Interesting comment chaim, Genesis shared their writing credits for much of their career, so they did believe the whole band was involved in the creative process. I think the creative working relationship of a band is more important than the ability of the songwriters, hence the great covers. The music evolves with the working relationship.

Hotel California is a great song but it's the title track of an outstanding album. It's not a one track album. I've read that it sold twice as many as all their previous albums put together (not counting the Greatest Hits, of course). Felder's impact was minuscule compared to Walsh's.

Since he was fired, Felder has really embellished his involvement with the track Hotel California. When he was still in the band, his anecdotes were about coming up with the chord progression and how he and Joe did the guitar parts, nowadays he claims all the guitar parts were on his original demo. He still inadvertently admits that it was Henley who was the main driving force of the track though.

Despite it being all about the money, I'm pretty sure Felder's sacking wasn't a financial decision. The last lengthy band lay off was before Felder's exit, so I presume that he was the major cause of it.

Lastly, judging by the results coming through on the One Of These Nights song survivor thread, ( https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5824 ) Glenn and Don should have been getting double money in 1975, twenty years before Glenn insisted on it.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-06-2015, 08:33 AM
You have a very good point, F50. The DJs on the radio stations I listened to were hyping the unprecedented success of whatever the next album from the Eagles was just because Joe was part of the band, before anyone had ever heard of Hotel California. It's a great album, top to bottom, don't get me wrong, but it was more than the music that sold it.

Chaim, the scenario you described above is nearly exactly the scenario Glenn described with Joe and LITFL. It was a warm-up riff (he mentions it in the documentary). What annoys me in the documentary is that the director got it backwards. Glenn had 'Life in the Fast Lane' before he heard the riff, and when he heard Joe's riff, he knew that's what it would be. I believe it's detailed in the thread about Glenn's appearance at the Songwriters Master Session at NYU.

UTW, I agree with what you said about Felder's contribution to On The Border. Glenn and Don had the vision to give themselves a harder edge, and Felder was merely guitarist they'd already met and could use the work. They asked him to join because he was there. Felder is extremely talented and Glenn respects talent and saw potential, but it was unused potential for that album. Any competent guitarist would have done the trick. On The Border would have been more successful (at the time) than Desperado no matter what, and one could argue that a different guitarist may have made a bigger impact and made it even more successful. As Glenn said in concert, they'd given up trying to pull a single from it when BOML finally made it big. Doesn't exactly ring up as an album to get Felder full money on, let alone for the rest of his life.

There are people out there who have co-written one great song, and have co-performed it with others who could then rest for the remainder of their life on the laurels of it, but never in a situation that I know of where the other writers and performers worked their tails off before and after and were expected to share their success on all songs forever because of one co-written song. It was a chord progression, for heaven's sake, with perhaps a hint of a melody here and there. Who made the song 'sellable'? I realize the dueling guitar part at the end was written with Joe in mind, but Joe made it possible, and Joe came up with the most popular segment of it. Right or wrong, since it comes down to a difference in styles and not really talent, but Joe is the one who sold it during performances.

Felder is the primary song writer because he came up with it initially. He didn't recognize the potential as Chaim said, and didn't even invest enough in it to remember it. While recording, they had to call his housekeeper to play it over the phone. For this, we're all being punished by his constant carping in the news about how he is the one who was treated unfairly. I don't want to downplay his primary role in one great song, but I'm really, really sick of it being blown out of proportion. In my mind, LITFL could easily have been worked on differently and been their 'epic' song off that album if HC had never come about.

chaim
08-06-2015, 09:56 AM
To be fair, what Don F says he didn't remember was the guitar solo. I can understand that. It may have been semi-improvised, although I must say that if it was, it was some piece of improvising!

MortSahlFan
08-06-2015, 11:40 AM
To an earlier quote, "Anyone could have filled in" is speculation, and probably false. No one knows what another guitarist would have done. We do know that Felder's playing was amazing.

If you ask a person to name an Eagles song, they know Hotel California. It was the only English song my cousin knew who came from Europe, so I would play it for him all the time.

And the earlier replies were very correct how a band usually works. One guy has an idea, someone says "What about playing it in Bm (instead of Em)" because Don couldn't sign that high for example. And the world is glad that Glenn/Don recognized the great song, because they had the power to say, "No" - it usually has to be great, otherwise the main duo would think "We rather have our songs" (and not just for royalties). Don't forget, Felder, Frey, and Henley all get royalties for the single "Hotel California" and I think it solidified the album. I watched the HOTE doc at 3am yesterday after I replied, and Don says himself that they wrote all the other songs around the Hotel California theme - the American Dream/Nightmare.

I'm just saying they should have negotiated, given him lower pay, because the duo did do more work, even though it wasn't the initial agreement. It's legal, but not necessarily moral.

But, at that point, they weren't going to write any more (we thought), so they could find a guy to play Felder's stuff note for note, and pay SOOO much less, and not have to deal with a guy asking about finances, or saying things like "I guess".

Basically, I see each members' point of view. I try to understand them all, so I did as much research on this as I could, including tiring myself out today after watching the HOTE doc yesterday since I couldn't sleep because it was on my mind - this conversation.

Maybe they should have all taken peyote and then reconsidered :nahnah:

UndertheWire
08-06-2015, 11:49 AM
Since posting earlier, I've realised I forgot an important contributor to their success from On the Border onwards - Irving Azoff - and I'm not being sarcastic. It seems that he was the one who suggested Szymczyk and also who went to fight for them when it came to the financial deals that got the money to the band, not just their record company or management.

None of this is in Felder's book because most of it was in place before he joined.

AlreadyGone95
08-06-2015, 11:54 AM
For me, personally, LITFL is their epic song. It's the one I can remember being blown away by as a young kid. The opening guitar riff got me hooked, and I've stayed hooked on that song. With HC, I loved the beginning, but I'd be sad when Don sang "but you can never leave" because I'd think "crap.. here come the guitars" :hilarious:. It wasn't until I was almost a teenager that I began to love and enjoy the guitar part of HC.

I think that Felder made them a bit better, but it was adding Joe Walsh that really took things from successful to mega - successful. Joe not only brought talents as a guitarist, but as a songwriter and vocalist. He also already had an established career and fanbase. His fun, kind of crazy onstage persona, I'm sure also helped bring the crowds. Felder was a no-name struggling musician playing for Crosby and Nash. He brought talent as a guitarist and maybe as a songwriter, but certainly nothing like the talents and "perks" Joe Walsh brought.

As for songwriting and who gets credit, I'm not sure. Going back to LITFL, Joe gets a songwriting credit for the riff, even though it was Glenn who saw the potential for it to be part of a huge song. In fact,isn't Joe's name listed first on the credits?(Someone correct me if I'm wrong). I've always been a bit iffy on who gets credit for helping to write a song.

I've only been a mega-fan for about 3 months now, and I'm already tired of reading about "Don Felder and his amazing song, Hotel California, which he pratically wrote by himself". I'm glad that I didn't read his book prior to watching the documentary or checking into the band more. I might be on the other side of the debate.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-06-2015, 12:08 PM
We've had this discussion on other threads about the importance of HC to the Eagles catalog. It's a given it's an iconic song and perhaps the song they are most known by when it comes to casual fans or even non-fans. There are a lot of people who dislike the Eagles based purely on that song, which is a sure sign of an iconic song. However, it's not their only claim to fame and their top selling album doesn't have HC on it (although I'm sure HC influenzed its sales). For myself, I have never liked the song, and as much as I was anticipating this album due to the addition of Joe, if it hadn't been for NKIT, I would have likely stopped being an Eagles fan. HC is about a place and time that most people could not relate to. As far as I can tell, those who wanted to be able to relate to it liked it, those of us who were quite happy where we were/are did not. It didn't help that it's a six minute song that was played twice an hour and so I eagerly anticipated the time when it would stop playing on the radio, and I felt that way long before I ever knew who wrote it and the drama that has unfolded because of it. I enjoy it live, and watching Joe play the guitar on it is beyond amazing. However, I'd be happy if it disappeared from the setlist altogether.

"Anyone could have filled in" is speculation and is open to interpretation. I've listened to On The Border many many times and there is nothing on there that requires the talents of someone like Felder. In fact, I think it's insulting to Felder's talent to say that there is. The man has made some astonishingly poor choices, in my opinion, when it comes to some of his personal interactions and decisions, but there is no denying his talent, and it is not showcased on On The Border to its full potential.

Felder would not have accepted a negotiation or a lower rate. If he'd been willing to accept less, he'd have never been fired. After he got fired and realized he'd gone too far, perhaps he would have accepted less, but by then it was far too late. Sometimes, when you make your own bed, you have to actually lie in it. It is my opinion that HFO was Felder's second chance at remaining an Eagle. In addition, any chance that they'd ever bury the hatchet and move forward even for a historical tour was shot to death when Felder litigated, then came out with the Book of Hate referenced in this thread title. Since he continues to litigate, it seems pretty obvious where his priorities are, and regardless of the pap he seems to get the media and some fans to swallow about just wanting to play with them again, he's proven, over and over, that it's not what he really wants. He's said over and over that music isn't about the money, yet everything he's done since 1995 when it comes to the Eagles has been about the money. Yet fans buy it time and time again. Frankly, I'm shocked he's not a politician.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-06-2015, 12:10 PM
Since posting earlier, I've realised I forgot an important contributor to their success from On the Border onwards - Irving Azoff - and I'm not being sarcastic. It seems that he was the one who suggested Szymczyk and also who went to fight for them when it came to the financial deals that got the money to the band, not just their record company or management.

None of this is in Felder's book because most of it was in place before he joined.

Amazingly enough, UTW, Azoff is very underrated when it comes to the success of the Eagles post-Desperado. The man obviously knows what he's doing and did at the time.

chaim
08-06-2015, 12:57 PM
I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the impact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.8-)

AlreadyGone95
08-06-2015, 01:40 PM
I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the inpact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.8-)

Chaim, I agree with you 100%. When we hear the intro, we know what's coming and we get excited, or at least I do.

The way I see HC: the intro is the appetizer. It provides us with a taste of what's to come. The middle part with the lyrical journey is the main course of an excellent meal. Then the outro/guitar part is the homemade dessert at the end, a great way to end the song and a meal. (I hope that my analogy makes sense.)

VAisForEagleLovers
08-06-2015, 02:18 PM
I have a minor point to add. The HC intro is legendary, and people mention it often. Don even managed to mention it several times in his book. BUT, I wonder how much the inpact of the intro has to do with what comes later - lyrics and all. If a lousier song would follow, would the intro sound as amazing? When we know that a fascinating tale about "Hotel California" is about to start, of course we go "YEAH!" when we hear the intro.

I'm not saying that the intro alone doesn't do the trick. Maybe it does. Just food for thought.8-)

:) If you read what Glenn had to say in the songwriters session, he mentioned intros. He wasn't talking about HC, just in general, and he mentioned how important they are. They set the mood, as he said. He said he felt the intro to In The Air Tonight was the best intro.

Obviously an intro doesn't make a song great, but it sure sets it up to be great.

chaim
08-06-2015, 02:33 PM
Chaim, I agree with you 100%. When we hear the intro, we know what's coming and we get excited, or at least I do.

The way I see HC: the intro is the appetizer. It provides us with a taste of what's to come. The middle part with the lyrical journey is the main course of an excellent meal. Then the outro/guitar part is the homade dessert at the end, a great way to end the song and a meal. (I hope that my analogy makes sense.)

It makes perfect sense to me. I've never thought about it, but you're right IMO - in that it's a three part thing.

chaim
08-06-2015, 02:35 PM
:) If you read what Glenn had to say in the songwriters session, he mentioned intros. He wasn't talking about HC, just in general, and he mentioned how important they are. They set the mood, as he said. He said he felt the intro to In The Air Tonight was the best intro.

Obviously an intro doesn't make a song great, but it sure sets it up to be great.

One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

AlreadyGone95
08-06-2015, 02:43 PM
One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

Here's the thread where you can read more about it:
https://eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3279

For intros, HC, Desperado, LITFL, Already Gone, and One of These Nights I think are the ones people can recognize and know what song it is.

VAisForEagleLovers
08-06-2015, 05:54 PM
One of the Bee Gees brothers said the same thing in some documentary. Maurice or Barry. Gee, I wish I could see at least a transcription of what Glenn has said in the songwriters session. I think someone told me in some thread (at some point) where I can see it, but I don't remember anymore!

As far as intros go, Glenn's Desperado intro is probably their best intro ever. I remember being amazed by it even when I had no idea who it was.

Here is a link to it. It's not exact quotes, just a transcribing of notes. I believe HH and Soda started it here on page 5:
https://eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3279&page=5

UndertheWire
02-29-2016, 05:53 AM
In the last few days, I came across a succinct review of the book:


Heaven And Hell: My Life In The Eagles (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2265789.Heaven_And_Hell) by Don Felder (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/907560.Don_Felder)
My rating: 3 of 5 stars (https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/551542238)
Well, this was really a fun read, and a nice accompaniment to the Eagles documentary currently making the rounds on cable. I wouldn’t even consider myself an Eagles fan, but I love to read stories about interesting, accomplished lives… and, let’s face it, “Hotel California” IS the American “Stairway to Heaven.” I will say this though… while Mr. Felder is an earnest narrator — and a first-rate and seemingly hard-working guitarist — he does seem to have quite a few First World problems. He effusively states how lucky he was to be a rock and roll god, and then complains about… well, just about everything. I like him as a narrator, and I enjoyed his story — but, you know, I have a funny feeling I wouldn’t want to be in a band with him. Even less so with Glenn Frey. As if.
https://medium.com/@bvar/69-book-reviews-in-36-minutes-2312d180126e#.d0u6va6j4

alexcostea
03-11-2016, 07:10 AM
Hmmmm :hug:

armus2112
03-11-2016, 10:22 PM
and then complains about… well, just about everything

I didn't get that from reading the book.

travlnman2
03-12-2016, 11:11 AM
Well I think Felder should have been Happy he was let go because the way he describes his relationship with Glenn and Don in his book why would he want to go back? He should have been static that he was not under their control.

UndertheWire
03-12-2016, 11:36 AM
I need to read the book again in the light of Don Felder's statement after Glenn's death. I know the book was written at a time when Don was feeling hurt and bitter and I suppose that if he was writing it now, there would be more fond memories included and perhaps a different perspective. In a recent interview (Uncut, magazine only), Don said, "For the most part, playing in a band with Glenn for 27 years was delightful." He even praised Glenn's guitar playing! I'd like to know if he now has regrets about what he wrote in the book.

Here's the statement:


Glenn’s passing was so unexpected and has left me with a very heavy heart filled with sorrow. He was so young and still full of amazing genius. He was an extremely talented songwriter, arranger, leader, singer, guitarist – you name it – and Glenn could do it and create “MAGIC” on the spot. His visions and insights into songs and lyrics have become legendary and will echo throughout time on this earth for decades to come.

Glenn was the one who invited me to join the Eagles in 1974, and it turned out to be a gift of a lifetime to have spent so many years working side by side with him. He was funny, strong and generous. At times, it felt like we were brothers and at other times, like brothers, we disagreed. Despite our struggles and difficult moments together, we managed to create some magical songs, recordings and live shows. His charisma on stage was felt and loved by millions of people all over the world. I have many wonderful memories of those years and the many miles I traveled with Glenn, filled with laughter, song, parties, hugs and brotherly bonds.

Glenn was the James Dean of the band. He was the leader that we all looked to for direction and by far the coolest guy in the band. It saddens me a great deal that we were never able to address the issues that came between us and talk them through. Sadly, now we will never get the chance. The planet has lost a great man and a wonderful musician today. None will ever be able to take his place. May you rest in peace Glenn Frey, and may God bless you and your lovely family.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/don-felder-glenn-frey-tribute/?trackback=tsmclip

chaim
03-12-2016, 01:01 PM
If he has regrets about his book he has never expressed it as far as I know. On the contrary he still seems to think he's the one who should be apologized. There was the "forgive but NEVER forget" comment on Facebook not too long (probably a few weeks) before Glenn passed away. So it seems he has zero regrets. Plus he's perfectly fine with people bashing Glenn and Don H on his Facebook page.

If I remember correctly one adjective Don used about Glenn in some tribute or in a recent interview was "kind" - something very similar anyway. That word doesn't come to mind at any point when I see Don talk about Glenn in his book. His only recent comment I believe to be 100% genuine is "It saddens me a great deal that we were never able to address the issues that came between us and talk them through". But I guess "addressing the issues" would have meant Glenn apologizing to him.

(EDIT:

Someone said recently that Don's intention wasn't to badmouth Glenn and Don H in his book (and there was a quote from Don F that said this) - that he was just telling his story. You only have to look at the pictures he chose of Glenn and Don H to see how he wanted the reader to see them.)

sad-cafe
03-16-2016, 06:45 PM
I got a new Kindle and re-read the felder book.

Lets just say My opinion didn't get any better.

Love The Eagles but I don't think felder did himself any favors


That review is right. He complains about everything.

armus2112
03-16-2016, 11:49 PM
I say, so what he complains. I think anyone who was an Eagle would not do justice to an autobiography by choosing to gloss over all the dysfunction and internal strife within the band. And also I think it's not fair to say 'oh, all rock bands are always in a state of internal combustion'.

I want the other Eagles to release autobiographies. Come on, what are you waiting for Henley? We all know you can write. You would make a pretty penny :)

sad-cafe
03-17-2016, 12:24 AM
he cheats on his wife, blames the rest of The Eagles then says the divorce is her fault because she made him feel lonely

chaim
03-17-2016, 09:48 AM
There's an awful lot of complaining IMO. Don Henley's "we broke up, we came back..." rap was bad (I'm sure it was intended to be dead serious), Glenn's sax playing was bad (I'm sure it was intended to be dead serious) etc. etc. And especially when Don writes about the "resumption" era everything was handled badly, even the mixing in concerts. He can't have been a source of huge positive energy in the band if he felt that negatively about EVERYTHING they were doing.

MaryCalifornia
03-17-2016, 11:41 AM
I really enjoyed the book, I think Felder's life story is fantastic, I think he's a great guitar player, and I think he's an ungrateful complainer and I'm surprised the Eagles continued to work closely with him year after year, with his heavy negative vibe bringing everything down.

Freypower
03-17-2016, 05:38 PM
There's an awful lot of complaining IMO. Don Henley's "we broke up, we came back..." rap was bad (I'm sure it was intended to be dead serious), Glenn's sax playing was bad (I'm sure it was intended to be dead serious) etc. etc. And especially when Don writes about the "resumption" era everything was handled badly, even the mixing in concerts. He can't have been a source of huge positive energy in the band if he felt that negatively about EVERYTHING they were doing.

I don't remember this. Glenn loves sax, yes. When did he ever try to play it?

UndertheWire
03-17-2016, 05:48 PM
From what I remember, Felder said it was Funky New Year. I couldn't hear it.

Update: at the beginning there's a recognisable but bad Auld Lang Syne. No doubt it was intentional.

Freypower
03-17-2016, 06:08 PM
Right. I looked it up:

'On the flipside was a song called Funky New Year, in which we all clinked glasses & made a lot of noise while Glenn played saxophone. He decided he wanted to play sax after hearing David Sanborn play but he was nowhere near as good, & he never played sax on a record again, thank God' .

No kidding.:huh:

I haven't actually listened to that version of FNY for a very long time. I play the Millenium Concert version.

I think the point is the complaining should have been tempered by some positive stories.

Marshmaster
09-03-2016, 03:38 AM
Hope that you guys don't mind a few comments after having read most of the posts and having read the book.

We don't know everything that went on and as such are limited to our own opinions and observations. Here's mine....

According to Mr. Felder, he was made a full partner of the group and as such should have had full access to information as to the operation of the corporation. I believe in the book a reference is made by him having been elected or serving as CFO, so he should have been able to see the financials at any time I would think.

The fact that the group did not disband or do so formally - at least as far as anyone knows, should not void the organization Eagles, Ltd and the agreements that they were operating under at the time they started their "vacation", and should still be in force when they returned - unless there was a expiration clause in the company charter(or whatever you may call it). There is no mention of it in Mr. Felder's book. We don't know if any vote was taken to disband the organization or if any filing was made to do so.

We don't know if any "Board of Directors" meetings at all were recorded, or if any meeting notes were made when they returned and whether Mr. Frey and Mr. Henley had thought to do so on the return from "vacation" so their actions would have had at least a look of legal formality. It doesn't appear so as Mr. Felder claims to have been blind sided by the new revenue sharing split that was imposed upon the return from "vacation".

When you watch many of the videos that are online, the only people that seem to be enjoying being on stage are Mr. Felder and Mr. Walsh.

It also seems odd that Mr. Walsh doesn't acknowledge Mr. Felder's role in helping him to undergo treatment for his addictions.

There are some other observations I have but think this is a good point to get to bed.

Marshmaster

UndertheWire
09-03-2016, 08:19 AM
Welcome, Marshmaster. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to respond to some of your comments.


According to Mr. Felder, he was made a full partner of the group and as such should have had full access to information as to the operation of the corporation. I believe in the book a reference is made by him having been elected or serving as CFO, so he should have been able to see the financials at any time I would think.
My understanding was he was made an equal shareholder (not a partner - it was/is a corporation not a partnership) but with the arrangement that he would only benefit from profits on work he was part of ie from the start he was paid less than the original four members.

As CFO, he had a legal responsibility to look at the financial records. If records were being withheld from him, he should have taken action sooner or resigned. Was there dodgy dealing? This was the music business in the 70s, so almost certainly. Was this to the detriment of Felder? We don't know. Just because Felder felt it was, doesn't make it so.


The fact that the group did not disband or do so formally - at least as far as anyone knows, should not void the organization Eagles, Ltd and the agreements that they were operating under at the time they started their "vacation", and should still be in force when they returned - unless there was a expiration clause in the company charter(or whatever you may call it). There is no mention of it in Mr. Felder's book. We don't know if any vote was taken to disband the organization or if any filing was made to do so.
The band did not formally disband (my guess is that it still hasn't) but even if it had, the corporation would have continued as an entity that receives and distributes royalties from the recordings from 1971-1980. As part of his lawsuit, Felder moved to dissolve the corporation, which implies it still existed in 2001.

In 1994, a new corporation was set up for the HFO tour and recordings. I think they've had a new corporation for each tour and major project since. This is normal for an act of this size and is probably driven by legal liabilities and taxation reasons.


We don't know if any "Board of Directors" meetings at all were recorded, or if any meeting notes were made when they returned and whether Mr. Frey and Mr. Henley had thought to do so on the return from "vacation" so their actions would have had at least a look of legal formality. It doesn't appear so as Mr. Felder claims to have been blind sided by the new revenue sharing split that was imposed upon the return from "vacation".

There is no doubt that Frey, Henley and Azoff got together to agree how the reunion should work without involving Felder. Even Joe and his manager were part of those discussions. It was presented to Felder as a "take it or leave it" deal. It didn't deprive him of his share of his original corporation but made it clear that future activities would be covered by new corporations and contracts.



When you watch many of the videos that are online, the only people that seem to be enjoying being on stage are Mr. Felder and Mr. Walsh.
I disagree. I've seen all of them looking like they enjoy being on stage. People pull faces when concentrating, particularly if they are singing and trying to hit the right notes but it doesn't mean they are unhappy.


It also seems odd that Mr. Walsh doesn't acknowledge Mr. Felder's role in helping him to undergo treatment for his addictions.
Perhaps Joe doesn't think Felder played a significant role. All we know about Felder's contribution is that he drove Joe to rehab. Joe attributes his decision to go into rehab to the condition laid down by Frey, Henley and Azoff for his inclusion in the reunion. From Joe's former manager, we also know that "no-alcohol, no drugs" rules ("The Glenn Commandments") were applied to the whole tour to make it easier for Joe to remain sober.

chaim
09-03-2016, 09:40 AM
Yes, although it's great IMO that it was his bandmate Felder who drove Joe to rehab, it is my understanding that the driver could have been anybody. It wasn't Felder who made him go there as far as I know. So, indeed, perhaps that's why Joe doesn't thank Felder in public.

mimi g
09-03-2016, 10:14 AM
Going psycho-babble, I got the impression from reading Felder's book that he envied the relationship Henley & Frey had together, (with all its faults), and secretly wanted to bond with them but they wouldn't let him in. That's just my take....

Marshmaster
09-03-2016, 11:23 PM
UndertheWire,

Mr. Felder didn't try to dissolve the Eagles. IN his book, his suit alleges involuntary dissolution of Eagles, Ltd. which tells me that it was both Mr. Frey and Mr. Henley that made that move. The book also states that Mr. Felder was a one third owner of Eagles Ltd. AND also had shares.

"I never quit, and I never surrendered or offered up my shares of stock. According to our corporate agreement, which is still valid, someone had to leave of his own volition for that to happen"

Also, the contract he signed in 2000 gave him "direct, free, and independent rights to examine the books". But when he started to ask questions, people felt threatened which led to his improper firing. Because of that, he sought to reopen the books all the way back to his hiring date in 1974 and to get the proper remuneration due him, first as a one-fifth partner and then as a one third partner after the departures of Mr. Meisner and Mr. Leadon, which I feel is fair but some will say is not.

Mr. Azoff, who by the way was supposed to be representing Mr. Felder as well as Mr. Frey and Mr. Henley, quite honestly didn't do his job. Mr. Azoff was in conflict of interest, as it seemed he was not representing all parties equally or properly.

It's just too bad that money and egos got in the way of some very good music that will survive the test of time.

Marshmaster

UndertheWire
09-04-2016, 04:54 AM
I don't know which newspaper this came from, but my guess would be the LA Times. I've included the link to the post in this thread below.

The lawsuit, filed last year in Los Angeles County Superior Court, seeks past earnings and potentially lost income totaling more than $50 million. Felder is seeking to dissolve Eagles Ltd., the corporation that holds rights to the band’s name, some unreleased recordings and other property.https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47742&postcount=171


The book also states that Mr. Felder was a one third owner of Eagles Ltd. AND also had shares.A limited company is owned by its shareholders. Saying Mr Felder is a one third owner of Eagles Ltd is the same as saying he owned one third of the shares.

Azoff was the manager for the band and for Don Henley. Walsh and Frey had their own managers. Azoff might argue that he did what was best for the band rather than the individuals within the band (with the exception of Henley). Also, if the alternative was no reunion, or replacing Felder, then a deal that paid Felder an unequal but still large amount may have been the best he could do for Felder as an individual.

It's 15 years since Felder was fired and 10 years since they settled the lawsuit. Felder got some money, a salve to his pride, a best-selling book and something to talk about in promotional interviews. The band played on.

ETA: I'm sorry if I'm coming across too strong. I think you came out of the book thinking as the author intended. However, it's just his side.

ambulance girl
09-23-2016, 10:35 AM
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. I enjoyed the book, I like Felder and I don't feel like I have to take sides in order to be a fan of Frey and Henley's. I am an Eagles fan before I am a fan of any one individual.

You've summed up my thoughts exactly!! As a lifelong Henley fan, i went into reading the book with preconceived notions about Felder, but...let's just say my rose-colored glasses got knocked off. NONE of them are straight out angels or demons. None of us were there, so we don't know what really went on, or what the band's internal dynamics are/were. It was nice to hear another side of the story for a change.

UndertheWire
09-28-2016, 11:27 AM
I've just read the "change a word and gain a third" quote repeated elsewhere and it's something that has me puzzled. It appears in the book, attributed to Bernie and Randy but I haven't heard either of them say anything about it in interviews. It's something that gets repeated frequently.

The book quote, which is in the section about working on the One of These Nights album:

Bernie, meanwhile, became increasingly dissatisfied with how the pair of them treated him and Randy. He didn’t like them taking rough mixes back to their house to decide what tracks would stay or go, nor did he and Randy like what they described as Glenn’s ability to “change a word and gain a third”—coming to a song that was in their minds substantially done, with lyrics and music, making what to them seemed to be modest contributions, and suddenly becoming entitled to a third of the songwriting royalties.

However, in Cameron Crowe's 1975 Rolling Stone article, Henley says:

We've just taken it upon ourselves that this is our department. Maybe we're full of shit but I think we've proven ourselves. We recognize the fact that those guys have got a need to say something and if we can help them say it better, then I think everybody's better off. It's not a matter of credit or money or any of that stuff. We've been splitting the publishing equally from the beginning.

In the documentary, Bernie talks about "band publishing" and indeed there is a common publishing company, Kicking Bear, credited on the first three albums and "Their Greatest Hits 1971-1975. This seems to back up Don Henley's statement of how publishing royalties were handled prior to Hotel California.

So rather than "change a word to gain a third", it seems that during Bernie's time in the band, each of the band members would have benefited equally financially regardless of who received a credit and that Felder's reporting is misleading.

chaim
09-28-2016, 12:12 PM
I would understand if it was just a credit thing - that Randy and/or Bernie complained how Glenn got his name in there after not doing that much. But when Felder mentions "royalties", it's different.

Scarlet Sun
09-28-2016, 01:14 PM
So rather than "change a word to gain a third", it seems that during Bernie's time in the band, each of the band members would have benefited equally financially regardless of who received a credit and that Felder's reporting is misleading.
Publishing is typically only 50% of the pie. The songwriter(s) get(s) the other half.

NightMistBlue
09-28-2016, 01:22 PM
Oh my. I thought publishing royalties were the same as songwriting royalties.

UndertheWire
09-28-2016, 01:36 PM
I'm going to have another go at this.

Scarlet Sun, could you explain how it works?

I understand that songwriters would typically sign over 50% of their songwriter royalty to a publishing company such as Warner Chapell in return for that company collecting the royalties and trying to sell the song to other performers.

I assumed that when Bernie and Don H referred to "publishing", they were talking about the songwriter's share and in this case, they had signed an agreement giving David Geffen a 50% share, but that the remaining 50% was shared equally by the band members.

Scarlet Sun
09-28-2016, 02:10 PM
Can you explain how this works? I think I've misunderstood how it works - I assumed "publishing" and the "songwriting" share were the same.

In the case of the early Eagles, does this mean that of the 100% royalties

- songwriters would receive 50%
- 25% (50% of 50%) would go to the publisher (eg Warner Chapell)
- 12.5% (50% of 50% of 50%) would go to Geffen
- 3.125% (25% of 50% of 50% of 50%) to each of the band members?

According to Eliot:

- songwriters would receive 50%
- 25% would go to Kicking Bear (6.25% for each of the original four Eagles)
- 25% would go to Benchmark (Geffen's publishing entity)

UndertheWire
09-28-2016, 02:33 PM
According to Eliot:

- songwriters would receive 50%
- 25% would go to Kicking Bear (6.25% for each of the original four Eagles)
- 25% would go to Benchmark (Geffen's publishing entity)

If that's the case, then Glenn would have received a quarter regardless of whether he changed a word, wrote the entire song or did nothing. And once Felder joined, that would go down to a fifth for new songs.

Scarlet Sun
09-28-2016, 04:31 PM
If that's the case, then Glenn would have received a quarter regardless of whether he changed a word, wrote the entire song or did nothing. And once Felder joined, that would go down to a fifth for new songs.
No, "change a word to gain a third" would mean 33% of the 50% songwriters' share or an additional 16.7% overall

Funk 50
09-29-2016, 04:58 AM
I'm just thinking, how different life would have been for Felder, if he had to write the words to Hotel California himself. I'm guessing that there isn't much, in Heaven And Hell, about his education.

UndertheWire
09-29-2016, 08:44 AM
I think Randy said that Don brought the track to him first, so it could have been another Felder-Meisner song.

Eagles7
03-26-2017, 01:51 PM
I'm just thinking, how different life would have been for Felder, if he had to write the words to Hotel California himself. I'm guessing that there isn't much, in Heaven And Hell, about his education.

Wonder how it would have faired if Don Henley had used the HC lyrics with another tune, and minus the guitar intros and exits?

Freypower
03-26-2017, 06:10 PM
Wonder how it would have faired if Don Henley had used the HC lyrics with another tune, and minus the guitar intros and exits?

There is no way of knowing but I believe the song would still have been a huge hit, because the lyrics written by Henley and Frey were so memorable.

Eagles7
03-26-2017, 11:11 PM
Well, fortunately, music met lyrics and vice versa. Just another example of the 5 (or actually 7) of them being bigger than any of the individuals.

MortSahlFan
04-10-2017, 08:33 PM
I think Felder got screwed. They went super-league thanks to him, who brought a variety of music, and the best guitarist they ever had.... Joe Walsh gets credit from average fans I read outside of here, but I'd take any Eagles guitarist over Joe... Heck, Glenn's solo on "I Can't Tell You Why" is better than any solo Joe ever did in his life.. And Joe can't sing in a band where EVERYONE is a great singer.. He got attention for doing childish things, which must have appealed to Glenn and Don's insecurities.

"Do I look at you or the camera?"

WalshFan88
04-11-2017, 04:07 AM
I think Felder got screwed. They went super-league thanks to him, who brought a variety of music, and the best guitarist they ever had.... Joe Walsh gets credit from average fans I read outside of here, but I'd take any Eagles guitarist over Joe... Heck, Glenn's solo on "I Can't Tell You Why" is better than any solo Joe ever did in his life.. And Joe can't sing in a band where EVERYONE is a great singer.. He got attention for doing childish things, which must have appealed to Glenn and Don's insecurities.

"Do I look at you or the camera?"

Ummm excuse me?! You can praise DF without bashing Joe. Quite frankly, he was as great of an addition as DF was, and he is on their biggest selling song of all time and widely regarded to be their best album...

It's one thing to have a preference, and it's another to unfairly drag someone through the mud simply because you don't like them.

Me personally, I'll take a from-the-heart bluesy raw player over a technician any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I like Felder, a lot actually. But I will always prefer Joe's style. And that's fine. Glenn was a great guitarist also. I'm not a Bernie Leadon fan personally but I won't deny his input and talent.

I'm sorry, but I think you are being very rude to Joe and his fans with your comments and I feel like you could have chosen your words more wisely.

"Average fans?". Come on MSF, that's so lame... There are PLENTY of Eagles diehards that respect and love Joe for what wonderful things he brought to the band and his sheer talent. Joe is just as talented as the rest of the Eagles guitarists, without a doubt.

You can be upset at Felder's leaving without bringing others through the muck that had nothing to do with it.

Funk 50
04-11-2017, 05:50 AM
I think Felder got screwed. They went super-league thanks to him, who brought a variety of music, and the best guitarist they ever had.... Joe Walsh gets credit from average fans I read outside of here, but I'd take any Eagles guitarist over Joe... Heck, Glenn's solo on "I Can't Tell You Why" is better than any solo Joe ever did in his life.. And Joe can't sing in a band where EVERYONE is a great singer.. He got attention for doing childish things, which must have appealed to Glenn and Don's insecurities.

"Do I look at you or the camera?"

I totally disagree MortSahlFan. Joe was a highly regarded rock guitarist even before Eagles were formed. Pete Townsend, Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page are more than "average fans" Joe joined the Eagles after working extensively or maybe intensively, with them while producing Dan Fogelberg's Souvenir album. I could go on but the thread is about Felder's book, "Heaven And Hell".

Joe is putting together his own autobiography. I'm sure his craziness will be well documented but I expect most of it to be about the multitude of brilliant artists and icons that he's encountered during his lengthy and varied career as a musician. Hopefully Felder will feature in a chapter or two. :rockguitar:

thelastresort
04-11-2017, 08:11 AM
MSF must be the only person in western civilisation who dislikes Joe Walsh. Even those who detest the Eagles' very existence seem to quite like Joe. All four Eagles guitarists were different: Glenn permanently sold himself short but was a solid rhythm guitarist and had a good solo / lead in him; Bernie was an exceptional country rock / folk / bluegrass player who I think drove their early sound more than people credit him for; Felder could play note for note with infinite accuracy any guitar tab going; Joe was the master improv lead who also featured a lot as a rhythm guitarist for them in the 1970s before Glenn became allergic to playing piano *, and remains one of the best rock guitarists America has ever produced. I do think he relied a bit too much on the 'Silly Joe' image back in the late 70s to early 90s, but listen to his talkbox solo on RMW, riff and lead work on LITFL or his blistering solo on LROOE. The man's supremely talented.

* Yes, I am aware arthritis is primarily what precluded him playing as time went on.

GlennLover
04-11-2017, 10:01 AM
Thank you WF88, Funk 50 & tlr. I had the same reaction, but you gave much more educated rebuttals than I could. :rockon::thumbsup:

Delilah
04-11-2017, 10:53 AM
"Thank the Lord for Joe Walsh."

--Don Felder, Heaven and Hell, p. 179

Tony Trout
03-04-2019, 11:18 PM
Hey, guys & gals! I finally was able to buy the e-version of Don's autobiography and I'm reading through it now. I'll let ya'll know my opinions when I finish it. As for right now, I'm reading about Don's early life in Gainesville, FL and being stricken with polio and I also read about how his first dog accidentally ate rat poison and it passed away and, of course, Felder was very upset to have to lose his first childhood pet. :ack::weep: :cry:

chaim
03-10-2019, 05:46 AM
Looking forward to "hearing" about your thoughts about it. I like to re-read bits from it now and then.

webvan
09-25-2019, 10:46 AM
I think Felder got screwed. They went super-league thanks to him, who brought a variety of music, and the best guitarist they ever had(...)

And that's probably were all the "problems" come from, without HC (and OOTN that I had paved the way) would we still be talking about the Eagles today ? Well not like this for sure, maybe like Poco or America, etc...Henley and Frey knew that better than anyone else and probably resented him for that so had no qualms in treating him like a sideman in 1994, like Walsh and Schmidt. It didn't help of course that Felder did not have a strong track to contribute to HFO. Was he ever asked why he hadn't contributed to the new material ? Did he have stuff that got turned down ?I mean he was only too happy to tell the story of how he had to come up on the spot with the "spanish" intro to HC...