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Freypower
11-07-2007, 06:44 PM
Time for another 'song topic' I feel. In this track I particularly like the explicit nod to Randy Newman, who is a hero of both Don and myself. The 'good old boys' reference is the title of one of Randy's albums (and yes I do know what it means). The line 'even if one of them was to read a newspaper from cover to cover' is sung almost the way Randy would sing it with all those words being delivered in such a sardonic manner. Then of course he continues 'that ain't what's goin' on/journalism's dead & gone'. He should live in Australia, where about 90% of newspapers are owned by Rupert Murdoch.

Other Henleyisms include 'you keep on rubbing that, you're gonna get a blister' and 'you brought her here so go ahead and kiss her', not to mention the classic lines about the toothpaste.

Regarding the music it would be nice if it were Joe who were playing the funky guitar part. But as Don seems so reliant on Steuart now I honestly don't know. I like the percussion as well.

Billy
11-07-2007, 06:56 PM
Interesting comments. I love the song too. Don's influence is paramount to it,but i also think that Steuart has had a lot of influence in the song, and album(I note that he co-wrote some of the songs) I suspect that that over the years, the guy's had to fit in tough schedules,so comprimises were made along the way.

anyway another A+ from me

Maleah
11-08-2007, 12:58 AM
Musically.......love it. I love the funky beats and sounds to it. Lyrically.......excellent writing.......but not necessarily a big fan of it.

EasyFeeling
11-08-2007, 08:13 AM
I regulary skip this song. This one and Fast Company are my last favourite Don songs on the album.

Molly
11-08-2007, 05:51 PM
I regulary skip this song. This one and Fast Company are my last favourite Don songs on the album.

LOL! Frail Grasp is the 1st song I tend to listen to! I think it's my favorite on the CD's. Glad there's something there for everyone.

Perfect Little Sister
11-08-2007, 05:56 PM
That's the beauty of this double album. (showing my age i know...double cd) :wink:

Molly
11-08-2007, 06:09 PM
That's the beauty of this double album. (showing my age i know...double cd) :wink:

I hear ya, sometimes I feel like I'm moving at 33rmp's in an IPod world!

Brooke
11-09-2007, 10:42 AM
Album is my choice word, too, so I'm with ya there!

This is not one of my favorite songs. It's ok. It's kinda funky. I probably won't skip it ..... much. I like the clanging sound in certain parts. It just fits and is kinda funny. I don't care for the organ and Jesus part at all.

Typical Don rant. But, I like him so much I can overlook some things! :wink:

sodascouts
11-09-2007, 02:07 PM
I've already posted my thoughts on this elsewhere and they weren't very pretty! I'll try to be a bit more tactful, lol.

This is my least favorite song on the album, right there with Fast Company (BTW, when did "album" become an antiquated term? I thought it was just "record" that no one used anymore.)

But let me start with some positives. Here are things I like about the song:
1) The intro. When I first heard it, I thought, "this is going to be cool!" That feeling did not last, lol.
2) The way Don sings "Journalim's dead and gone"
3) The lines about the toothpaste and garbage (too funny!)
4) The guitar solo
5) The way Don sings what sounds like "hold on, hold on" towards the end at about 4:50. For some reason I really like that!

Negatives:
1) Don's "singing" during the verses mostly sounds like sing-songy talking with the occasional guitar note and beat. The worst part in this regard is the "Love-drunk friend" verse.
2) The chorus sounds like "Fast Company," my second to least favorite song.
3) The organ music during the part where he makes fun of people who believe in God - so trite!
4) And last but not least, the outrageously condescending lyrics. When I hear him sneering at the common man who discusses politics in a bar with his friends, I just shake my head. Apparently these lower-class people don't have a right to discuss world events because they do not share his high degree of enlightenment. What stupid blue-collar jerks, eh? :roll: And when Don turns his nose up at people who pray that folks won't get hurt at football games - which are usually parents of the kids playing (Don admitted this in a recent interview) - how tacky is that? I can understand his frustration at the Bush administration and the war, but I'll never understand the need to pick on everyday people who have a different set of beliefs than he does. Don't their life experiences count for anything? Maybe there is more to the Big Picture than even Enlightened Don can grasp. Maybe, in the grand scheme of the universe, even an educated and intelligent man like Don Henley "don't know much of nothin'."

"With respect to knowledge we are all children of the mist." - Henry David Thoreau.

sodascouts
11-09-2007, 02:08 PM
That's the beauty of this double album. (showing my age i know...double cd) :wink:

I hear ya, sometimes I feel like I'm moving at 33rmp's in an IPod world!

LOL!!!

I also love that this album has something for everyone. They didn't let us down.

Molly
11-09-2007, 04:13 PM
Nancy, I totally understand your frustration with Don's viewpoints.

When I listen to the lyrics, I'm listening to them from "my viewpoint", and with that being the case, I actually agree with the ideas presented in each of the verses. For instance, the whole God presiding over football games immediately brought to mind the chest thumping, heaven pointing athletes who "praise God" after every good play they make. Then they leave the field and get in trouble for beating up their girlfriend or get tested positive for drugs. It also made me think of NASCAR races. I've been to a few and the beginning of a NASCAR race can sometimes feel like a church rally for 100,000 people (can I have an Amen, people?)

I wasn't aware of Don's remarks about people praying for a safe football game. Well, OK, Don, hope your kid never goes out for tackle football. I throw up a please at the start of one of my kid's games and a big thank you at the end for another safe game -so I guess Mr. Henley and I should avoid that subject should I ever get the opportunity to discuss it with him. I also throw a big thank you to the man upstairs when I get out of the WalMart Supercenter parking lot with my bumpers still attached to my car and when I manage to get my dog outside before she throws up-so I probably abuse the whole prayer thing! :wink:

Or, I picture people like my Dad, who had very little education, who could interpret a news broadcast in such an "incorrect" way, that I would leave the room scratching my head and wondering whether or not we watched the same broadcast. I'm not saying that he didn't deserve to have an opinion -I'm saying it often times showed a real lack of understranding or grasp of the issues.

And, if leaving the cap off the toothpaste is the worst thing Don and Glenn can find to bitch about after all the years they've been married -they're lucky!

I guess that's why sometimes I prefer to listen to a song with "my ears" and not worry or try to analyze what the writer may have been thinking or feeling. Either a song speaks to me, or it doesn't -plain and simple. Frail grasp brings pictures to my mind of my own personal life scenes -I like that.

Maleah
11-10-2007, 12:54 AM
Soda.........i couldn't agree more and that's all I'll say again :lol: ;)

sodascouts
11-10-2007, 02:16 AM
Nancy, I totally understand your frustration with Don's viewpoints.

When I listen to the lyrics, I'm listening to them from "my viewpoint", and with that being the case, I actually agree with the ideas presented in each of the verses. For instance, the whole God presiding over football games immediately brought to mind the chest thumping, heaven pointing athletes who "praise God" after every good play they make. Then they leave the field and get in trouble for beating up their girlfriend or get tested positive for drugs. It also made me think of NASCAR races. I've been to a few and the beginning of a NASCAR race can sometimes feel like a church rally for 100,000 people (can I have an Amen, people?)

I wasn't aware of Don's remarks about people praying for a safe football game. Well, OK, Don, hope your kid never goes out for tackle football. I throw up a please at the start of one of my kid's games and a big thank you at the end for another safe game -so I guess Mr. Henley and I should avoid that subject should I ever get the opportunity to discuss it with him. I also throw a big thank you to the man upstairs when I get out of the WalMart Supercenter parking lot with my bumpers still attached to my car and when I manage to get my dog outside before she throws up-so I probably abuse the whole prayer thing! :wink:

Or, I picture people like my Dad, who had very little education, who could interpret a news broadcast in such an "incorrect" way, that I would leave the room scratching my head and wondering whether or not we watched the same broadcast. I'm not saying that he didn't deserve to have an opinion -I'm saying it often times showed a real lack of understranding or grasp of the issues.

And, if leaving the cap off the toothpaste is the worst thing Don and Glenn can find to bitch about after all the years they've been married -they're lucky!

I guess that's why sometimes I prefer to listen to a song with "my ears" and not worry or try to analyze what the writer may have been thinking or feeling. Either a song speaks to me, or it doesn't -plain and simple. Frail grasp brings pictures to my mind of my own personal life scenes -I like that.

Well put, Molly. I understand why the song appeals to you.

I think sometimes I get over-analytical with lyrics, but I can't help it. I've always been that way. Even when I was little, I'd write down lyrics to songs I liked. I remember, when I was seven, I wrote down the lyrics to "The Rainbow Connection" off of the Muppet Movie. My Mom found the paper and got very scared when she read lines like "Have you been half-asleep, and have you heard voices? I've heard them calling my name." She thought it was a diary entry.

I got a talking-to about that. lol

EasyFeeling
11-10-2007, 07:32 AM
I regulary skip this song. This one and Fast Company are my last favourite Don songs on the album.

LOL! Frail Grasp is the 1st song I tend to listen to! I think it's my favorite on the CD's. Glad there's something there for everyone.

Funny to see the different opinions on one song. :wink:
I love it to read the detailed descriptions of the songs, for instance a line or about voices. I'm not good on that. :roll:

Molly
11-10-2007, 09:41 AM
Soda.........i couldn't agree more and that's all I'll say again :lol: ;)

Hmmmm.... :?

Maleah
11-10-2007, 01:28 PM
lol Something wrong Molly?

Perfect Little Sister
11-10-2007, 02:05 PM
I wasn't aware of Don's remarks about people praying for a safe football game. Well, OK, Don, hope your kid never goes out for tackle football. I throw up a please at the start of one of my kid's games and a big thank you at the end for another safe game -so I guess Mr. Henley and I should avoid that subject should I ever get the opportunity to discuss it with him.


I rather suspect he'll change his tune when his son is old enough to play competitive sports. We were involved with peewee football many years ago thru the parochial schools. The year we got a new priest, he came out and asked a blessing for the team at the start of the season. My friend's 4-year-old was watching and said, "Mommy, who's that man over there?" She asked him if he meant Father Bill and he said, "No...the man over there...he looks like Jesus." As the priest was the only man standing "over there" she just told her son, "I don't know. I can't see him." That was the only year out of the four we were involved that there were no major injuries on the team. While Don may scoff, he might want to throw one up there just in case. :wink:

The Bomber
11-10-2007, 11:49 PM
I got tired of listening to Henley rant real quick. I fast forward this one.

Maleah
11-11-2007, 01:58 AM
I wasn't aware of Don's remarks about people praying for a safe football game. Well, OK, Don, hope your kid never goes out for tackle football. I throw up a please at the start of one of my kid's games and a big thank you at the end for another safe game -so I guess Mr. Henley and I should avoid that subject should I ever get the opportunity to discuss it with him.


I rather suspect he'll change his tune when his son is old enough to play competitive sports. We were involved with peewee football many years ago thru the parochial schools. The year we got a new priest, he came out and asked a blessing for the team at the start of the season. My friend's 4-year-old was watching and said, "Mommy, who's that man over there?" She asked him if he meant Father Bill and he said, "No...the man over there...he looks like Jesus." As the priest was the only man standing "over there" she just told her son, "I don't know. I can't see him." That was the only year out of the four we were involved that there were no major injuries on the team. While Don may scoff, he might want to throw one up there just in case. :wink:

wow.....what a neat story PLS! I got goosebumps when I read it!

Molly
11-11-2007, 11:05 AM
lol Something wrong Molly?

No, Maleah, nothing at all. :)

Maleah
11-11-2007, 03:54 PM
lol ok, but I didn't mean to upset you if I did! I just felt I had said enough about the song in various threads...but agreed with what Soda said and wanted to mention that.

Freypower
11-11-2007, 07:05 PM
Molly, I agree with your comments.

If Don has ever criticised people for praying that their children won't be injured during football games, I have never read such a thing. I can't see anything like that in these lyrics.

The part about the guys in a bar isn't condescending. The crucial part here is the 'journalism's dead and gone' part, not the fact that the men are discussing politics. All he says that perhaps they don't regularly read newspapers, but even if they did, it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't really think he is sneering at them.

The 'love drunk friend' thing is a bit reminiscent of his swipes at men who 'Can't Make Love' or wonder 'How Bad Do You Want It' or 'Aren't Drinking Enough' or ..... etc, etc, etc. If I have a problem with Henley's attitude it is to the way he writes about men who are not as successful with women as he has been. So that is my least favourite part of the song and yet to me he manages to lighten it up with the 'toothpaste' thing.

As a foreigner it would not be my place to analyse the 'God is American' part but I would just say that to some of us outside the US, this is the impression that we are sometimes given.

sodascouts
11-11-2007, 07:33 PM
If Don has ever criticised people for praying that their children won't be injured during football games, I have never read such a thing. I can't see anything like that in these lyrics.

This is from the Capital Gold interview, when asked about those lyrics:

"[In Texas] football is right up there next to God and Mom and the flag and apple pie. And there's always a prayer before the games. And sometimes the prayer asks... I mean, they used to come out and just ask outright for victory, but now they just sort of pray that nobody gets hurt, which is fine, but... you know, they ask the Lord to watch over this football game, as if the Lord has nothing else to do. As if the universe is so small that the Lord has time to watch football games."

Somehow, I think Henley might not be as well-versed on the mind of the Lord and the purpose of prayer as he thinks he is. Ironically, I believe Henley is the one making the universe small - acting as if the Creator of the Universe exists on the same time plane as people do and has the same limitations. Somehow I don't think the Lord scoffs when people pray. Perhaps Henley is making God into his own image.


The part about the guys in a bar isn't condescending. The crucial part here is the 'journalism's dead and gone' part, not the fact that the men are discussing politics. All he says that perhaps they don't regularly read newspapers, but even if they did, it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't really think he is sneering at them.

The lines "they think they know it all - they don't know much of nothin'" aren't sneering at these guys? Come on.


The 'love drunk friend' thing is a bit reminiscent of his swipes at men who 'Can't Make Love' or wonder 'How Bad Do You Want It' or 'Aren't Drinking Enough' or ..... etc, etc, etc. If I have a problem with Henley's attitude it is to the way he writes about men who are not as successful with women as he has been. So that is my least favourite part of the song and yet to me he manages to lighten it up with the 'toothpaste' thing.

While this segment is the weakest part musically, those toothpaste lyrics are pretty witty.

DonFan
11-11-2007, 10:57 PM
Well, it has been very enlightening to read this thread and hear the different ways people analyze Don's lyrics.

I don't care for some Don songs, such as Fast Company; however, I liked this song from first listen. Thank you, Molly--you expressed my feelings perfectly:


I guess that's why sometimes I prefer to listen to a song with "my ears" and not worry or try to analyze what the writer may have been thinking or feeling. Either a song speaks to me, or it doesn't -plain and simple. Frail Grasp brings pictures to my mind of my own personal life scenes -I like that.

Now if you will excuse me, I must go chastise my husband for leaving the top off the freakin' toothpaste. :wink:

sodascouts
11-11-2007, 11:32 PM
Now if you will excuse me, I must go chastise my husband for leaving the top off the freakin' toothpaste. :wink:

lol! Don hit the nail on the head there. ;)

sodascouts
11-24-2007, 01:03 AM
Just like in Busy Being Fabulous, this song is credited to Henley/Frey/Smith in the deluxe edition of LROOE, but just Henley/Frey in the original. Strange!

Ive always been a dreamer
11-24-2007, 02:52 PM
I have not had a chance to comment on this song before now, but basically, I agree with Molly and Freypower about the song. I will make one observation here that hasn’t been mentioned by anyone else though. I think it is interesting how everyone is crediting (or blaming) Don for all the lyrics here. Perhaps it’s because Don is singing it in his ranting voice, but one of my first reactions when I listened to the lyrics is that I think there is a lot of Glenn in this song. I just think parts of the song sounds more like something Glenn would say than Don. Obviously, that’s just me and we’ll really never know. I’m not sure, but maybe the points and humor in the song would come across better if Don was more “singy songy” instead of using the ranting voice. I think more singy songy may have given a little bit more melody to the verses, which is my only real criticism of the song. I guess if Steuart has a songwriting credit on the song, it’s safe to say he may be doing the guitar parts.

However, I do like the song a lot and do not see it as sneering down at lower class citizens. I approach it more as a generalized statement on society as a whole, which is basically what they are saying in the first verse. I see a lot of truth in it and can totally relate to this song.

With regard to the verse about the drunks sitting around in a bar all thinking they know it all – when Don comes in with the line about journalism being dead and gone, my interpretation is that this is more a statement about how misinformed we are because journalist (and the government who controls them) do not give us accurate information. It’s like saying you can’t have all the answers if you don’t know all the questions.

Reading Don’s Capital Gold comment, I don’t see it as him being critical of people praying for the safety of the players. He even says that is fine. But, it does seem to be an abuse of prayer when people pray for victory, every time points are scored, or a big play occurs.

One of the best examples I can think of where many people seem to have a very frail grasp on the big picture is at little league baseball or peewee football games. I remember when my brother was playing these sports how out-of-hand the parents can get over this stuff. I have witnessed some really bad behavior at these games. It boggles the mind to think the most extreme behavior could result in the Texas cheerleader mom who hired someone to kill her daughter’s chief competitor.

I say kudos to the guys for recording this song. BTW – my favorite line is “you keep on rubbin' that, you’re gonna get a blister". I just love it in context with the toothpaste and garbage lines.

scottside
11-24-2007, 03:06 PM
Dreamer, I agree with your assessment of the lyrics completely. My problem with the song (and why, to me, it's one of the worst on the whole collection) is that the melody and chorus are just so damn weak and recycled. It sounds like solo Henley musically and not one of his better works at that. I was so hoping for something straight up rock and roll on these cds and thought, judging by the lyrics) that this might be the one. Once I actually heard the music for it for the first time, I was so disappointed.

Freypower
11-24-2007, 06:17 PM
Just like in Busy Being Fabulous, this song is credited to Henley/Frey/Smith in the deluxe edition of LROOE, but just Henley/Frey in the original. Strange!

Please don't tell me that Steuart has YET ANOTHER writing credit. And BBF too? Good grief. I really have a problem with this. And if it is true, why on earth was he not credited in the original?

I think it's extremely sad that the once great Henley - Frey team has apparently disintegrated to this level.

But as to there being some 'Glenn' in the lyrics... where? Glenn does not write lyrics like these.

sodascouts
11-24-2007, 08:29 PM
I feel it is important to clarify what I have said, so I am going to address your reply point-by-point pretty extensively. I know most people won't bother to read such a long post, but hopefully those who care about this matter enough to argue the point will do so.


I think it is interesting how everyone is crediting (or blaming) Don for all the lyrics here. Perhaps it’s because Don is singing it in his ranting voice, but one of my first reactions when I listened to the lyrics is that I think there is a lot of Glenn in this song. I just think parts of the song sounds more like something Glenn would say than Don. Obviously, that’s just me and we’ll really never know.

I don't really get that sense but who knows? It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. We know Glenn contributed a lot of the lyrics to Busy Being Fabulous. I remember you told me earlier that you think the jokes sound more like Glenn; however, we can't forget that Don has a pretty sarcastic sense of humor himself (which I do sometimes find pretty funny). Example: The first Henley album I ever owned was "Building the Perfect Beast." I bought it late, in 2000, largely because I wanted to hear "You Can't Make Love" on which Lindsey Buckingham appears :blush: . When I heard his joke about how if everyone lives to be as old as Methuselah, there would be parking problems, I about died laughing. I thought it was one of the most clever lyrics I had ever heard. (My paraphrase does not do it justice; go back and listen to the title track to hear it done right!) I thought, "Don Henley is several cuts above your average lyricist." I still think that. He has amazing talent with words.


I’m not sure, but maybe the points and humor in the song would come across better if Don was more “singy songy” instead of using the ranting voice. I think more singy songy may have given a little bit more melody to the verses, which is my only real criticism of the song. I guess if Steuart has a songwriting credit on the song, it’s safe to say he may be doing the guitar parts.

More melody to the verses would have been a VAST help. Don said somewhere that they were trying to go for a jazz-type "scat" feel, but sorry guys, there are some genres that were not meant for the Eagles! It's like Don trying to rap.


However, I do like the song a lot and do not see it as sneering down at lower class citizens. I approach it more as a generalized statement on society as a whole, which is basically what they are saying in the first verse. I see a lot of truth in it and can totally relate to this song.

With regard to the verse about the drunks sitting around in a bar all thinking they know it all – when Don comes in with the line about journalism being dead and gone, my interpretation is that this is more a statement about how misinformed we are because journalist (and the government who controls them) do not give us accurate information. It’s like saying you can’t have all the answers if you don’t know all the questions.

I find it hard to believe that Don includes himself in the "people that don't know much of nothin'" - the disdain in his voice - the use of "they" - the characterization of them as "good ol' boys" - do you really think Don thinks of himself as a "good ol' boy"? His criticism here is specifically directed at the guys in the bar, although certainly his criticism of the media is broadly applicable.

And lest this just be seen as my crazy interpretation due solely to my own personal beliefs without regard for what Henley really meant, there are many reviewers who got exactly the same vibe. While this is no indication of whether or not I'm right because many people can get the same mistaken impression, I think that if Don meant to make that verse a broad criticism of society at large, he made some poor lyrical choices.... which isn't very like him.


Reading Don’s Capital Gold comment, I don’t see it as him being critical of people praying for the safety of the players. He even says that is fine. But, it does seem to be an abuse of prayer when people pray for victory, every time points are scored, or a big play occurs.

I would like to believe this. It would sure make the line more palatable. Unfortunately, I can't overlook the problem with this interp. While he qualifies that it's "fine" for people to do that in the Capital Gold interview, he follows it with a "BUT" clause. Below is the transcription. Let's look at the quote in full context, not isolated clauses.

"[In Texas] football is right up there next to God and Mom and the flag and apple pie. And there's always a prayer before the games. And sometimes the prayer asks... I mean, they used to come out and just ask outright for victory, but now they just sort of pray that nobody gets hurt, which is fine, but... you know, they ask the Lord to watch over this football game, as if the Lord has nothing else to do. As if the universe is so small that the Lord has time to watch football games." (Emphasis mine)

If we examine the quote IN CONTEXT instead of isolating the qualifier, we can see that the criticism is CURRENT here. We have to examine it with the rest of the sentence after the "but". He goes into the next clause with a "But" - as in "Yeah, that's fine, BUT here's the problem..."

So, here's what I don't understand. If they don't pray for victory anymore, what is he complaining about in the song? What is "he presides over football games" a jab at if it's fine to ask for the Lord to preside over the football game in order to ensure kids aren't hurt (which as Don says, IS WHAT THEY CURRENTLY DO)? What's the problem, Don? What's the "But" for? If he is criticizing prayers over football games that are no longer said by the officials, he's not being very relevant to today's society.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of taking quotes in context, especially when there's an oppositional clause like a "but" clause. Here's a similar example: there was an ad for a movie a few years ago that was pulled because it took a quote from a Rolling Stone review out of context. The original quote: "The leads steam up the screens, but overall, the movie isn't worth watching." The ad removed the "but" part of the sentence, and said "Rolling Stone says: 'the leads steam up the screens!" Rolling Stone forced them to pull the ad, because by ignoring the "but" clause, they changed the meaning of the quote.

Likewise, in Don's quote, we can't ignore the "but" clause here in order to make Don's criticism more palatable. CONTEXT, it's all about taking quotes IN CONTEXT.

But, for the sake of argument, even if we go with the more generous characterization that Don doesn't mind official prayers before football games as long as they stick to praying for the kid's safety (despite the fact he directly contradicts that with the "but" clause), it's still problematic. As I examined Don's quote and tried to reconcile it, I did come up with a possible explanation that would soften it: perhaps he feels such official prayers for kid's safety are only masking the secret desire to pray for victory (I can see that interpretation is arguable because he uses the word "outright" when talking about praying for victory, which implies it is still done privately).

Yes, you can bet some of the religious quarterbacks on that football field send up a quick prayer for their pass to get caught by the guy in the endzone to make the winning touchdown in a close game. Maybe he prays for it so that a scout will see it and give him a scholarship, or maybe he just prays for it because it means a lot to him. Maybe his daddy prays for it too because he knows how much it means to his son. Are they self-absorbed jerks with a "frail grasp"? I think that's pretty harsh - but that's JMHO. I know there are people who would agree that the quarterback is doing something really bad by saying that prayer. I know some people would think that the dad is a bad person for saying that prayer for his son. They have every right to believe that. However, making fun of that kid's hopes and dreams leaves a bad taste in my mouth, personally.

To be frank - and this is just my personal opinion - I also think it is the height of arrogance for a man to sit there and declare that God doesn't care about certain types of prayers because they're too "small." Obviously Henley's prayers must be carefully constructed to involve only important issues that God of course cares very much about, such as preserving Walden Woods and the legacy of Thoreau. God lends a close ear to HIS prayers, I'm sure, and undoubtedly appreciates that Don Henley never wastes His time with silly matters that are beneath Him. God probably wishes everybody had Henley's secure grasp on the big picture so that He wouldn't get those annoying prayers from kids full of hopes on the football field. "I wish that kid would shut up - I don't have time for his whining - I've got Henley on the other line and unlike that loser, HE only calls when it's IMPORTANT!"

You may say, "Hey, lighten up Nancy, he's just joking!" In fact, in an interview, Don talks about people not getting his humor in the song. In my opinion, though, that's like the kid at the playground who mocks a fat girl and doesn't understand why she bursts into tears. After all, his jokes making fun of her were pretty darn funny in his opinion! Look at her, all offended! Guess it went over her head! She's fat AND has no sense of humor! What a loser! Even more evidence of her inferiority to the mocker, undoubtedly!

Easy for him to say.... but my sympathy is with the fat girl.


One of the best examples I can think of where many people seem to have a very frail grasp on the big picture is at little league baseball or peewee football games. I remember when my brother was playing these sports how out-of-hand the parents can get over this stuff. I have witnessed some really bad behavior at these games. It boggles the mind to think the most extreme behavior could result in the Texas cheerleader mom who hired someone to kill her daughter’s chief competitor.

I think your criticism of these people is valid because they are hurting others, but do you really think Don is trying to characterize people who pray over football games as akin to killer cheerleader moms? I hope not!

Of course, one could construct a theoretical argument that these people are just different points along the same slippery slope, but I prefer to live in the realm of the practical. I get enough theory in academia. I've found you can pretty much argue anything persuasively if you dance fast enough with theory.

A side note, and I'm not saying that this has anything to do with your argument dreamer because I know you're not like this, but that's part of the problem of politics - intelligent people who know what to say to sound like they're in the right, and the folks who believe what they say without doing their own research. This applies to all aspects of life. DO YOUR OWN INVESTIGATION. Don't just swallow what you're told, no matter who it is - even if it's someone you consider an authority. When I see people all outraged about something when they haven't even bothered to look into the matter themselves, I get disgusted. Of course this is part of the reason I've become disenchanted with both parties because they both practice deception and distortion. There are the mindless followers who only need to know your party affiliation to determine whether or not you are a force of evil or an angel of light, no more questions asked. Those are usually also the people you'll find shouting down those who DO ask questions with personal recriminations.

You may ask, "Well, isn't that what Henley's trying to say about people just believing in the newspaper without finding out the answers for themselves? You say you feel disgusted by those people, isn't that being just as condescending as you claim Henley is being?" Here's the difference: while I agree that people should not just accept what they read, what I don't agree with is the stereotype of the guys at the bar. In America at least, "good ol' boy" specifically targets the rural man (this is differentiated from the "good ol' boy network" which has another connotation). Some of them do have minds of their own. I certainly recognize Molly's earlier point that there are people like this; I just think dealing in stereotypes is unfair. That's where I fault Henley; that's where he comes off as elitist and condescending, IMHO.


I say kudos to the guys for recording this song. BTW – my favorite line is “you keep on rubbin' that, you’re gonna get a blister". I just love it in context with the toothpaste and garbage lines.

Even at Don's worst, he can still be devastatingly witty with his lyrics. I admire that ability. It's his gift.

How he uses that gift is on him.

Note: Despite my criticism of this song, I think Henley is a brilliant songwriter and immensely talented. I know that he really believes what he is saying and he is just trying to better society by criticizing what he sees as problems within it. He seems to have a good heart underneath it all. But he's also human and I think here, he was unfair. I'm not going to ignore that just because I think Henley is talented.

Freypower
11-25-2007, 06:24 PM
Regarding whether Henley thinks his prayers are more important than other people's I wish to point out that he is an athiest. He doesn't pray.

sodascouts
11-25-2007, 07:05 PM
Regarding whether Henley thinks his prayers are more important than other people's I wish to point out that he is an athiest. He doesn't pray.
Are you sure about that? Henley has said he finds evidence of the existence of God in nature. Look at this quote from 1995:

"Among the cypress and the Spanish moss and the duckweed enrobing that most exotic of Texas lakes, Don Henley's bitterness toward God and East Texas dissipated. As he would later tell me, 'I found some intimations of immortality in nature. I don't experience God listening to a guy yell while I'm sitting in a pew. I see God in Caddo Lake.'"

You also see evidence in his lyrics:

"I dropped down and I called out to Heaven, "Send me someone to love"
And Heaven shot back, "You get the love that you allow."

His quote from Capital Gold also seems to posit the existence of God. Not participating in established religion doesn't mean one can't allow for the existence of God and pray to that higher power.

I don't know Don Henley and I don't know what he believes; all I have to go on are things like these. Perhaps you've read something different somewhere?

Freypower
11-25-2007, 07:12 PM
I thought he gave up all belief in religion after the experiences he had with Southern fundamentalism and watching his father die.

sodascouts
11-25-2007, 07:13 PM
I thought he gave up all belief in religion after the experiences he had with Southern fundamentalism and watching his father die.

I went back and added some stuff to my post above - not sure if you saw it - but anyway it seems that with time his views have apparently changed. This often happens when people get a bit older and start facing their own mortality.

Brooke
11-25-2007, 07:21 PM
I really enjoyed all of your comments here.

I think Don is a brilliant lyricist, but I don't always agree with him. And I'm wondering what his momma would think! At this point in his life, I suppose he doesn't care.

moonrambler
12-07-2007, 10:15 AM
"[In Texas] football is right up there next to God and Mom and the flag and apple pie. And there's always a prayer before the games. And sometimes the prayer asks... I mean, they used to come out and just ask outright for victory, but now they just sort of pray that nobody gets hurt, which is fine, but... you know, they ask the Lord to watch over this football game, as if the Lord has nothing else to do. As if the universe is so small that the Lord has time to watch football games."

Somehow, I think Henley might not be as well-versed on the mind of the Lord and the purpose of prayer as he thinks he is. Ironically, I believe Henley is the one making the universe small - acting as if the Creator of the Universe exists on the same time plane as people do and has the same limitations. Somehow I don't think the Lord scoffs when people pray. Perhaps Henley is making God into his own image.
I couldn't agree more. When people say "God has more important things to think about," it always sounds to me like their God is very limited.

Perhaps Don will come around to this idea now that he's re-discovered God through nature, rather than sitting in a pew listening to some guy up front yell. :wink: Although it is right there in his fundamentalist Bible how God knows the number of feathers on every little insignificant sparrow.

sodascouts
12-07-2007, 02:24 PM
Perhaps Don will come around to this idea now that he's re-discovered God through nature, rather than sitting in a pew listening to some guy up front yell. :wink: Although it is right there in his fundamentalist Bible how God knows the number of feathers on every little insignificant sparrow.

Well-said, in far less verbiage than I used! You nailed it.

Brooke
12-07-2007, 03:35 PM
Exactly!

Maleah
12-08-2007, 05:54 PM
Perhaps Don will come around to this idea now that he's re-discovered God through nature, rather than sitting in a pew listening to some guy up front yell. :wink: Although it is right there in his fundamentalist Bible how God knows the number of feathers on every little insignificant sparrow.

wow! :D Exactly! very well said 8)

Freypower
12-08-2007, 05:58 PM
On the other hand, as Don has been biding time with crows & sparrows, maybe that's how he found out about the sparrows' feathers. :wink:

Jeff Cooke
12-08-2007, 07:06 PM
I thought he gave up all belief in religion after the experiences he had with Southern fundamentalism and watching his father die.


Not believing in religion has nothing to do with not believing in God or having faith. There is a lot of content in Don's songs that expose a suppressed belief system. In my opinion there is no such thing as a real atheist because everybody knows that God exists. Some people just hope that if they cover their eyes God won't see them and others use it as a defense mechanism because they are pissed at, or disappointed with, God.

I know that I believe very strongly in God (more than I believe in anything that I can see, actually) but in my limited human wisdom there are a lot of things that I don't understand and I get pretty angry with God quite often. But He's big enough to understand. Religion (or what it is represented as) makes me want to puke.

Frail Grasp is a GREAT song and I understand Don's relevant sarcasm. I get it. In regards to the line about God being American, that's the way most Americans act! My interpretation (which could be right on or way off) of Don saying that it's as if God has nothing better to do than watch football games is that it seems like such a petty thing to pray for. After all, if both sides are praying for a win (as if all of eternity depends on the outcome) then what should be decided by the fact that one team has to lose? Does it make God buddies with the winners and He snubs the losers?

I believe in prayer even though it seems like mine don't have enough battery power or something many times and I do pray for the Eagles every night! Honestly!!

sodascouts
12-08-2007, 07:52 PM
Not believing in religion has nothing to do with not believing in God or having faith. There is a lot of content in Don's songs that expose a suppressed belief system.

I agree.


My interpretation (which could be right on or way off) of Don saying that it's as if God has nothing better to do than watch football games is that it seems like such a petty thing to pray for. After all, if both sides are praying for a win (as if all of eternity depends on the outcome) then what should be decided by the fact that one team has to lose? Does it make God buddies with the winners and He snubs the losers?

This is a question people have struggled with since the beginning of time. Why do bad things happen to good people and vice versa? Why did this prayer get answered and that didn't? If two people pray for opposite things, how does God choose? I don't know, but I'm not going to condemn the person saying the prayer as having a "Frail grasp" and act like I'm better than they are.


I believe in prayer even though it seems like mine don't have enough battery power or something many times and I do pray for the Eagles every night! Honestly!!

Me too, and their families to boot. I figure, it can't hurt!

What do you think of it musically? I'm not too impressed there, either.

Freypower
12-08-2007, 10:00 PM
I In my opinion there is no such thing as a real atheist because everybody knows that God exists. Some people just hope that if they cover their eyes God won't see them and others use it as a defense mechanism because they are pissed at, or disappointed with, God.




Well, I'm afraid you have met your first 'real athiest'. I do NOT know that God exists. My lack of belief has nothing to do with being afraid or using a 'defence mechanism'.

My views represent a minority on this board and I have no wish to impose them on anybody else, but they are valid for my life. Welcome to the board.

Jeff Cooke
12-09-2007, 01:50 AM
What do you think of it musically? I'm not too impressed there, either.

I actually like it musically. There is a lot of mellow stuff on the album and this is one of the edgier tunes.

Jeff Cooke
12-09-2007, 01:55 AM
Well, I'm afraid you have met your first 'real athiest'. I do NOT know that God exists. My lack of belief has nothing to do with being afraid or using a 'defence mechanism'.

My views represent a minority on this board and I have no wish to impose them on anybody else, but they are valid for my life. Welcome to the board.

I respect everybody's right to believe (or disbelieve) in whatever they want (or don't want) to believe. I figure that if you really seek the truth you'll find it. I believe what I believe because I believe regardless of whatever anybody else believes or disbelieves and there's no point in trying to talk anybody into or out of anything...from either side...if any of this rambling does or doesn't make sense!

DonFan
12-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Frail Grasp is a GREAT song and I understand Don's relevant sarcasm. I get it. In regards to the line about God being American, that's the way most Americans act! My interpretation (which could be right on or way off) of Don saying that it's as if God has nothing better to do than watch football games is that it seems like such a petty thing to pray for. After all, if both sides are praying for a win (as if all of eternity depends on the outcome) then what should be decided by the fact that one team has to lose? Does it make God buddies with the winners and He snubs the loser?

I agree completely, Jeff--Frail Grasp IS a great song, one of my favorites on the album--and I interpret what Don is saying about praying over football games exactly the same way you do.

BTW--welcome to the board! We're glad to have you!

moonrambler
12-11-2007, 11:22 AM
In my opinion there is no such thing as a real atheist because everybody knows that God exists. Some people just hope that if they cover their eyes God won't see them and others use it as a defense mechanism because they are pissed at, or disappointed with, God.
I'm not so sure anybody actually knows whether God exists. This is why there's so much emphasis on faith. I'm also not so sure anybody actually knows that God does not exist. Both are belief systems. Some people believe strongly enough that they feel like they know. It reminds me of the movie "Contact" where the astrophysicist asks "prove that God exists," and is countered with "prove that you loved your dad."

Who gets to decide what's petty to pray for and what isn't? Is praying to win a football game petty? That nobody gets hurt in the game? Does praying always have to involve something huge, like life and death? How about praying to get a new job you've applied for? If you get a "yes," that likely means other people who want the job just as bad won't get it.

I actually agree to an extent with Don's commentary in this song -- but I don't like the sneering quality he gives to it. And he's painting with an awfully wide brush.

Jeff Cooke
12-11-2007, 04:06 PM
Who gets to decide what's petty to pray for and what isn't? Is praying to win a football game petty?

Yes, praying for a win is petty. It's like praying for a bigger piece of cake than the next guy. That's what the "frail grasp" is on "the big picture." Communicating with God is cool but why is it that most of the time we pray for what we want rather than what God wants? Because we blind ourselves to "the big picture" and it's all about "me" and "now" without concern for the results or consequences or anybody else. Praying that nobody gets hurt is less selfless.

As for the proving that God does or doesn't exist, I always say 'prove to me that He doesn't and I'll prove to you that He does. Also, if athiests are right then what do I have to lose? The opportunity to kill, steal, rape, etc without reservation? My believing would at worst be a measure of restraint and concern. But if I'm right and atheists are wrong the stakes are much greater and eternal.

I can't prove that God exists but I don't need to. I know Him and have a relationship with Him. I've seen miracles that no one else would believe but since I experienced them, I do. I'm convinced by experience rather than guessing by theory.

I can warn you that the road drops off and give you directions to an alternate path but I can't force you to accept the directions and not fall over the edge. (The "you" being general, not personal).

In all honesty, I don't know how anybody can exist in this f#$@ed up world without faith. If I thought this was all there would ever be I would have checked out a long time ago!

One thing that I wonder is why non-believers are so quick to be offended at even the suggestion of God. I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but I don't get personally offended or go into a tirade at the mention of their names!

Also, where does a sense of right and wrong come from? Conscience is proof of an authoritative standard (God). Evolution wouldn't give us a conscious. We'd just do whatever the hell we wanted without hesitation or remorse! Literally.

If I died and there was no God there would be nobody else there to say "I told you so." On the other hand.......

sodascouts
12-11-2007, 06:07 PM
Who gets to decide what's petty to pray for and what isn't? Is praying to win a football game petty? That nobody gets hurt in the game? Does praying always have to involve something huge, like life and death? How about praying to get a new job you've applied for? If you get a "yes," that likely means other people who want the job just as bad won't get it.

Good analogy. I'd never presume to declare what one should or shouldn't pray for. Let God sort that out. This statement has no qualifier: "Cast all your cares upon Him, for he cares for you." - I Peter 5:6 (emphasis mine). I doubt Henley cares much for Bible verses, but for those making theological arguments, it's good to note such things.

Freypower
12-11-2007, 07:31 PM
1. I am not offended by the mention of God. I respect the beliefs of Christians and believers in other religions.

2. A sense of right and wrong, conscience and so forth have evolved over the centuries via the development of our legal and governmental systems. Yes, in the western world these are based on Judeo-Christian philosophy, but we 'evolved' into these systems because we had to. As you say, if these systems hadn't evolved there would be nobody left, but they are not necessarily the result of believing in religion. They're common sense.

3. It isn't easy to exist without faith. I'll tell you what my problem is. I don't want to embrace God or whatever simply out of fear of what will happen when I die. My father returned to his childhood Catholicism on his deathbed. I don't want that to happen to me.

4. Prove God doesn't exist - I say the same - prove he does!

Sorry I've rambled here but this has been a very stimulating discussion.

Jeff Cooke
12-12-2007, 04:54 AM
It isn't easy to exist without faith. I'll tell you what my problem is. I don't want to embrace God or whatever simply out of fear of what will happen when I die.

Neither do I. This is going to sound cliche and maybe cheezy but it's the truth, I don't embrace God out of fear, I embrace God because He embraced me. That is love and perfect love casts out fear. I don't believe in God because I'm afraid of hell, I believe in God because of who He is.

I don't believe that conscience evolves otherwise animals would have conscience. I respect your right to believe that, though! :)

I kinda get the impression that this board is somewhat Henley-hostile?

None of us knows what goes on in someone's soul. We only know what is presented or percieved outside someone else or inside ourselves. People wear masks well.

Your point #4 is saying the same thing I said in my post; " I always say 'prove to me that He doesn't and I'll prove to you that He does. "

sodascouts
12-12-2007, 05:24 AM
I kinda get the impression that this board is somewhat Henley-hostile?

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. While I dislike this song and its condescension, as you can see from the other threads on the music, I am more than impressed with Henley as a songwriter overall. This is the exception, not the rule.

As I said in an earlier, somewhat long-winded post, I realize that Henley is just doing this because he feels it will help society in some way, and not because he is mean. He just SOUNDS mean here - and we can all sound meaner than we intend sometimes. While I don' t know him and can't say for sure, I have a feeling he has a good heart. :)

One can disagree with a man's viewpoints - even disagree with him vehemently - and still respect him.

Jeff Cooke
12-12-2007, 06:47 AM
One thing about "Henley's rants" is that they make good fodder for discussion. I know that a lot of people are turned off from Christianity by self-appointed finger-waggers and I wrote this poem a while back in response to the judges who presume to represent God. It has some "color" in it so I hope no one is offended.

BACK OFF

by Jeff Cooke (7/9/6)

When you shove the light into my face,
Darkness comes to take it's place.
Why is it that you refuse to see,
You can't force feed your morality.

You point at me and then at the stars,
To distract the focus from your own scars.
You can't admit your humanity,
Your beliefs become your insanity.

Why hide behind a religious wall?
Is your faith really that weak and small?
Do you shit and piss and scream?
Do you fart and burp and have wet dreams?

It's okay to admit that you have flaws,
We're prone to bending rules and breaking laws.
Do you giggle and sing when you stub your toes?
Would your blood be red if I punched your nose?

You can't be perfect no matter how hard you try.
You've also been appointed a time to die.
If you don't live for today it's your own loss.
I can walk in the shadows clinging to the cross.

Why waste your time pointing your finger?
Self-righteousness has a stench that lingers.
Would it really seal your mortal fate,
If you admit that you masturbate?

Are you satisfied when you look into the mirror?
Or is your own reflection that which you truly fear?
Are you so disgusted by what you see,
That you feel the need to take it out on me?

You pervert and misrepresent the Name of Christ.
Your love and concern are colder than ice.
You embarrass yourself and you embarrass me,
When ritualistic bullshit is all that people see.

You assume to make it your life mission,
To be a nagging self-appointed imposition.
We'll both be judged by a greater assessor,
And He doesn't need your help or pressure.

When I go before the judgement seat,
You are not the one who I will meet.
So get off my back and off my case
Instead of studying me know your own place.

Your feet were put on the earth to walk,
Not to seek "heathen" prey to stalk.
Lighten up and learn to enjoy your days,
Before you realize too late they've wasted away.

DonFan
12-12-2007, 09:35 AM
Jeff, thank you for leading us into one of the more stimulating discussions we have had on this board.



I can't prove that God exists but I don't need to. I know Him and have a relationship with Him. I've seen miracles that no one else would believe but since I experienced them, I do. I'm convinced by experience rather than guessing by theory.

In all honesty, I don't know how anybody can exist in this f#$@ed up world without faith. If I thought this was all there would ever be I would have checked out a long time ago!


I, too, know God and I know exactly what you mean here--things have happened in my life, personal miracles for me, that I know came from Him, and no one else might believe that, either. My two daughters are my greatest miracles. I suffered miscarriage after miscarriage, had surgeries, took fertility drugs, did everything I could to get pregnant; and then, my first daughter was born two months prematurely and almost didn't make it. Her survival is a testament to the skill of the doctors who treated her, who are also Christians, and divine intervention. I don't know how anyone can experience the miracle of conception and birth without faith. The thought that we all came into being without a divine plan is simply ludicrous to me.

I enjoyed reading your poem. Well done.

(And BTW, I sometimes feel that this board can be a little Henley-hostile at times, too, perhaps due to the fact that Frey fans greatly outnumber Henley fans here.)

rcknalwys
12-12-2007, 11:02 AM
Love your poem Jeff, thanks for sharing it with us.

Ive always been a dreamer
12-12-2007, 11:55 AM
First of all, I agree that this has been an interesting discussion. It is also one that I decided to intentionally avoid because I think discussions about religion can tend to get out of hand. Also, I have a fundamental problem about everyone assuming that Henley always writes all the lyrics when we have no evidence that this is the case. As I stated earlier, I think it is very possible that Glenn may have had a hand in writing some of the lyrics in this song, so perhaps he needs to be credited or blamed depending on your view of the song. In any event, so far here, everyone is doing a great job of respecting other people’s views. So kudos to all of you who are participating! :D

With respect to this board being Henley hostile, I want disagree with that statement. Given the fact that the board started out as a message board for Glenn, I would agree that the board does favor Frey because there are more Frey fans here. But that is not the same thing. I know many of us here love Don, myself included. I have immense respect for both his talent and his viewpoints, even though he is not my favorite Eagle. Personally, I do not want to be a part of a board that is hostile to any of the Eagles, and I think we welcome any fans of any of the band members who want to join us here. What I don’t understand is why people come to the conclusion that if you have a favorite band member, then that translates to meaning that you dislike the others. I just don't get that mindset, although it seems to be the case in fan communities of other bands as well. :headscratch:

DonFan
12-12-2007, 12:24 PM
With respect to this board being Henley hostile, I want disagree with that statement. Given the fact that the board started out as a message board for Glenn, I would agree that the board does favor Frey because there are more Frey fans here. But that is not the same thing. I know many of us here love Don, myself included. I have immense respect for both his talent and his viewpoints, even though he is not my favorite Eagle. Personally, I do not want to be a part of a board that is hostile to any of the Eagles, and I think we welcome any fans of any of the band members who want to join us here. What I don’t understand is why people come to the conclusion that if you have a favorite band member, then that translates to meaning that you dislike the others. I just don't get that mindset, although it seems to be the case in fan communities of other bands as well. :headscratch:

Fair enough, dreamer. I hear you and agree--I would not be part of any board that is hostile to any of the Eagles either, and all Eagles' fans are certainly welcome here. "Hostile" is the wrong word. "Frey-centric" is more accurate. It did start out as a Glenn Frey board, and as scottside pointed out this morning in the Survivor thread, it continues, overwhelmingly, to be a Glenn Frey board.

It occurs to me that the situation we are discussing here is exactly the same situation discussed so often within the Eagles themselves, right up to the 60 Minutes interview where Don was asked Who is the leader of the band? and he said Glenn. The rivalry between Glenn and Don seems to parallel the rivalry between their strongest supporters as well.

sodascouts
12-12-2007, 01:49 PM
With respect to this board being Henley hostile, I want disagree with that statement. Given the fact that the board started out as a message board for Glenn, I would agree that the board does favor Frey because there are more Frey fans here. But that is not the same thing. I know many of us here love Don, myself included. I have immense respect for both his talent and his viewpoints, even though he is not my favorite Eagle. Personally, I do not want to be a part of a board that is hostile to any of the Eagles, and I think we welcome any fans of any of the band members who want to join us here. What I don’t understand is why people come to the conclusion that if you have a favorite band member, then that translates to meaning that you dislike the others. I just don't get that mindset, although it seems to be the case in fan communities of other bands as well. :headscratch:

Seriously. This is a problem that pops up again and again in the Eagles fandom. Sometimes, there seems to be a perception that liking one Eagle best automatically is supposed to mean that you think nothing of the others, yet honestly I see very few people who are REALLY like that, once you examine what they've posted. I have seen people mischaracterized to be like that, but rarely do you find people who actually trash one member continually in favor of the other. Seriously, is there even ONE post on this entire board that trashes a band member?! And we've been at this a year.

Unless, of course, you feel criticizing a man's work is the same as hating on him. I for one think a person should be allowed to be critical without having to worry about being cast as someone who is unable to recognize the talents of anyone but his/her favorite.

Additionally, this discussion seems to be all about Henley vs. Frey. There are two other members of this band. Their hardcores have to deal with their favorites being marginalized continually in discussions such as this, yet rarely are they defensive and divisive. In fact, again, I've NEVER seen it here.

sodascouts
12-12-2007, 01:58 PM
Fair enough, dreamer. I hear you and agree--I would not be part of any board that is hostile to any of the Eagles either, and all Eagles' fans are certainly welcome here. "Hostile" is the wrong word. "Frey-centric" is more accurate. It did start out as a Glenn Frey board, and as scottside pointed out this morning in the Survivor thread, it continues, overwhelmingly, to be a Glenn Frey board.

I agree - it is currently "Frey-centric." That is undeniable and it would be disingenuous for me to pretend otherwise. That dynamic may change over time - or it may not. Even if it never does, how is that worse than a Henley-centric board, a Schmit-centric board, a Walsh-centric board?The important thing is that nobody feels like one of the band members is continually diminished and insulted. I don't see that here, and I know you don't either, or you'd have quit as the moderator and headed for the hills! ;)

If you really want to see band divisiveness that gets scarily nasty, check out Beatles message boards. The Lennon Vs. McCartney fights on those things are infamously ugly. I have never seen anything that bad on any Eagles board at any time.


It occurs to me that the situation we are discussing here is exactly the same situation discussed so often within the Eagles themselves, right up to the 60 Minutes interview where Don was asked Who is the leader of the band? and he said Glenn. The rivalry between Glenn and Don seems to parallel the rivalry between their strongest supporters as well.

This may at least partially answer a point I brought up in a previous post - good observation.

Brooke
12-12-2007, 03:51 PM
Just want to add my 2 cents here to a very interesting discussion.

1. I do believe in God and have experienced his mercy many times in my life. And am certain that it was God that made the difference.

2. I still don't understand how sometimes "fortune smiles on some and lets the rest go free."

As far as this being a Henley-hostile board, I don't agree with that at all. I'm a big fan of Don Henley. Nearly as much as Glenn. As a matter of fact, I was a bigger fan of Don than Glenn for many years. I absolutely love his voice. I do not always agree with some of the things he says or writes, but it doesn't sway my opinion about his music. I think that Soda is right. This is just more of a Frey-centric board because there are more Frey fans here than Henley fans. It seems we all respect each others opinions about the band members and don't try to persuade them to move to the other side. Each person has their likes and dislikes about each member. There is no contest on which band member is the most liked here. I can see things I like and dislike in them all. I'm not naive enough to think they are all perfect and above making mistakes.

One more thing. Do you think there is a rivalry between Glenn and Don about who is the leader of the band? I don't. Don himself said Glenn was the band leader. Period.

sodascouts
12-12-2007, 05:14 PM
One more thing. Do you think there is a rivalry between Glenn and Don about who is the leader of the band? I don't. Don himself said Glenn was the band leader. Period.

I don't think there's a rivalry about who's the leader of the band. I think there is tension when Don feels Glenn maybe is steamrolling him a bit.

Freypower
12-12-2007, 08:01 PM
I wish to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

Jeff, thank you for the poem which I found very stimulating.

Dreamer, you say that you think Glenn may have written some of the lyrics of FGOTBP. I have said before I see nothing of Glenn in this song except for the music. To me FG is almost like a summary of Don's work over the years.

Part One - his take on the 'good old boys' mentality and what he perceives as the 'dumbing down' of America. Re: Little Tin God, They're Not Here, They're Not Coming, Nobody Else In The World But You, The End Of The Innocence (to some extent).

I want to repeat here that I think this part of the song is a direct homage to Randy Newman. It includes the sardonic delivery and the sarcastic humour.

Part Two - his views on religion. The Last Resort, Little Tin God.

Part Three - his diatribes against men who have trouble relating to women. This goes way back even to Love Rules and You Better Hang Up. It includes You're Not Drinking Enough and You Can't Make Love. Nobody Else... fits into here as well to an extent. In this song, the message works because he's lightened it up with the 'eternal questions' part.

Regarding this board being Frey-centric, yes, it is. There has been some strong criticism of Don recently because of what was seen as a somewhat cavalier attitude to the new album. However Don seems to have mellowed since then. We will criticise Glenn if we feel he deserves it. At the moment I tend to think the way he approached the recording of this album deserves some criticism. But we don't as Glenn fans ignore the other band members or their fans.

Jeff Cooke
12-13-2007, 12:20 AM
Fair enough. I just tossed the line out there to see what I'd catch. I like each of the individual members as people and artists for individual reasons but I like them much better as one! Glenn's a homeboy, I get Don's sarcasm, Timothy is the cool laid back dude and Joe is the comic genius. The Eagles as a group are beyond kickass. Yeah, Zepplin reunited and that's cool but for me the Eagles is a bigger better story. I just like to know if there's a slant in the territory to avoid ripples if ya know what I mean!

Freypower
12-13-2007, 05:55 PM
OK.... now showing my ignorance of American culture....

Glenn is a 'homeboy'? What is that? In Felder's book, he occasionally referred to Glenn's entourage as 'homeboys'.

Jeff Cooke
12-13-2007, 06:51 PM
OK.... now showing my ignorance of American culture....

Glenn is a 'homeboy'? What is that? In Felder's book, he occasionally referred to Glenn's entourage as 'homeboys'.


LOL. Usually a "homeboy" is somebody from your neck of the woods or somebody that you hang around with a lot (Which is usually referred to as "my boys"...damn that Hip Hop lingo creeping in everywhere). In this case Glenn is from Michigan and so am I so it's just an "area" thing.

moonrambler
12-13-2007, 08:20 PM
I, too, know God and I know exactly what you mean here--things have happened in my life, personal miracles for me, that I know came from Him, and no one else might believe that, either. My two daughters are my greatest miracles. I suffered miscarriage after miscarriage, had surgeries, took fertility drugs, did everything I could to get preganant; and then, my first daughter was born two months prematurely and almost didn't make it. Her survival is a testiment to the skill of the doctors who treated her, who are also Christians, and divine intervention. I don't know how anyone can experience the miracle of conception and birth without faith. The thought that we all came into being without a divine plan is simply ludicrous to me.
Just to let people know where I'm coming from, I see myself as basically an agnostic who leans toward belief in God, and having been raised in a Christian tradition, I feel more comfortable with that and tend to lean toward that also. I typically play devil's advocate in these sorts of discussions, because I don't feel that I know one way or the other, and the subject fascinates me.

So . . . stories like this . . . and not to sound insensitive to a situation which caused you much pain . . . I typically wonder why God is given credit for the miracle birth and survival, but not blamed for all the miscarriages and fertility problems leading up to this.

Most people who ever lived on this planet have experienced conception and birth without faith. Plenty of people have experienced conception as something traumatic and unwanted, rather than as a miracle. Then there are women who die in childbirth -- is that supposed to be miraculous?

What we get then are platitudes about how we can't know God's reasons for these things and we have to have faith that it's all working out for the best. Sometimes I believe this. Other times I think it's just a psychological method of finding some way to deal with very difficult aspects of life.

In some respects, Christians can't lose at these arguments. You pray for something to happen -- for someone to be healed, for instance -- and the person gets well -- your prayer has been answered! The person dies, well, we can't know the reason for God's will sometimes. It's no wonder atheists say "prove to me God exists" when no matter what happens, no matter how horrible, Christians continue to proclaim faith in God. I have no idea how they manage it.

sodascouts
12-13-2007, 10:05 PM
These are deep theological questions that you've asked, questions that everyone has asked throughout time. As I said, it all gets back to - "why do bad things happen to good people." The fundamental question.

We've all struggled with these things. I've had two of my best friends almost die before my eyes. In the case of my friend Kristen, whom you don't know - her pulling through was deemed by the doctors as miraculous. They present on her case at medical conferences, because she is the only instance in modern medical history where a person's pancreas has burst and the person has survived. Since pancreases are inoperable, it had to heal itself... and it did. They couldn't explain it. We all thanked God, and I still do. But of course we also wonder - why did she have to go through all that pain? I had another friend named Leigh Ann who died in a car accident before her first baby was a year old. She was a sweet person. Why?

But I don't buy that because bad things happen to people, that means there is no God. Man introduced sin into this world, but we blame God for it. God gave us all free will, but we get upset when people exercise that free will in a way that's wrong. Should we all be automatons then? Should God MAKE us do good, all of the time? Should we not have a choice? Because that's the only way there won't be bad things in the world, if God MADE us all be perfect all the time.

Of course it's easy to say, "I don't care about all those big theological questions. I only care that I saw a good person suffer. You can't justify that ever. End of story." It's not that simple.

Yes, not everyone's prayers can get answered - when one person wins, another person loses. But the reverse is also true. One of Leigh Ann's organs was given to another person, and it saved his life. Her death, in a way, was the answer to that family's prayers. Meanwhile, Leigh Ann's family had to go through terrible pain. They comforted themselves that she is in Heaven and they will see her again. I guess some people think they're fooling themselves and delusional, but it held her family together.

You can say "Well, God should have made it so that somehow that person didn't need an organ. God should make it so that there's no disease. God should make it that nothing bad ever happens to anyone." Like I said, the only way for God to do that would be to take away personal choice.

Of course, as I said, when we see people suffer, it's hard to understand why. Why did a big tsunami kill thousands of people? Whose personal choice was that? You may think it's an "out" to say that there are reasons we don't understand... but in the case of Leigh Ann's death - horrible things did work together for good. In that case, the good that comes of something horrible is visible to us. Sometimes it's not.

It's ironic that you say that Christians can't lose at these arguments when it's agnostics and atheists that REALLY can't lose at these arguments. If something bad happens, it shows there's no God. If something good happens, it's because we made it happen ourselves, or we have good luck. If it's a miracle.... well, surely there's some other un-miraculous explanation that we just don't know about yet. Yeah, that must be it. Honestly, I think that kind of dismissiveness of miracles is its own form of a platitude to explain away things that don't fit into the agnostic/atheist paradigm.

There's just as many unanswered questions for the agnostic and atheist as there is for the Christian. The difference is, Christians can find answers through faith, and it gives us hope. I don't know what the answer for the agnostic or the atheist is. I don't know how people manage WITHOUT faith.

Perfect Little Sister
12-14-2007, 01:15 PM
On the subject of why did so-and-do have to die. Is not our greatest reward when God frees us from this mortal coil and welcomes us home with open arms? Years ago our priest passed away at a rather young age. Everyone was very stunned and the kids at the parochial school were having a difficult time. My friend and I were talking to one of the nuns and she said something along the lines of it being a celebration. I was appalled by this until I thought about it. Especially for a priest there is not greater event than returning to God. But at the time she said it I felt shock and horror at such an idea. I don't usually enter into these kinds of discussions. I'm not sure why I did now. lol I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this matter.

Maleah
12-14-2007, 04:01 PM
wow....deep thoughts from everyone! I have to say that I agree with Soda's post. God doesn't cause someone to go kill someone else or someone to be killed in a drunk driving accident and so on.........it is a human beings choice to pull a gun on someone and shoot them, it is also a humans choice to have way too much to drink and then drive after it. Could God prevent it? Sure....but like Soda said.....that would require Him taking away our freedom of choice.

I can honestly say that when my Mom died I had a really hard time with it. I KNOW she's in heaven and I knew that the moment she passed, but it was hard to let go for my sake. My Mom longed to go to heaven, as she knew it was the greatest reward God intended. From my point of view now days, God not only rewarded her but I was taught so much and became so much closer to Him myself through the entire situation. Can I tell you that this was why she died? That this was God's plan? No.....but I do believe that there is always a reason and nothing happens without Him being aware. If I hadn't had that faith, I probably wouldn't have been around long after Mom died.

Jeff Cooke
12-14-2007, 05:02 PM
Wow! Lots of great (and deep) converstation here. It's cool to actually find a message board where people don't just rip into each other and people are open-minded. Very cool. It's actually a discussion rather than an argument or a pissing contest.

I know this might sound a little simplistic, basic, even childish but I believe that the good in life comes from God and the bad in life comes from man or the devil's suggestion ("Take the fruit", etc.).

I think the saddest thing is that when bad happens we accuse God and the devil dances. God doesn't want us to be wading in the evil, ugliness, decay, etc. so He provided us a way out (Christ/Heaven) and we are allowed to choose to accept it or reject it.

Sure, He can stop all of the bad but He created us to be family, not to be puppets and we can choose an eternity with or without Him. He doesn't send anybody to hell, they choose it.

I know that I have no fear of dying. In fact, I look forward to it. I'd rather be there than here. This is an interesting place to hang out but just like even the best of vacations, Home is home.

It's very cool to be able to talk about this stuff without getting blasted.

DonFan
12-14-2007, 05:24 PM
I like each of the individual members as people and artists for individual reasons but I like them much better as one! Glenn's a homeboy, I get Don's sarcasm, Timothy is the cool laid back dude and Joe is the comic genius. The Eagles as a group are beyond kickass.

My feelings exactly. Obviously Don is the one who caught me-- hook, line, and sinker---and reeled me in, but after that, I began to learn about ALL the guys and their diversity never ceases to amaze me. Each one is individually fascinating, but together they are unbelievable.

You are right about this board too, Jeff. We are a good group here--similar to the band who brought us all together in the first place. We respect each other's individual quirks, strengths, and weaknesses here, and we are very accepting--you CAN talk about most any topic without getting blasted.

Maleah
12-14-2007, 05:38 PM
Wow! Lots of great (and deep) converstation here. It's cool to actually find a message board where people don't just rip into each other and people are open-minded. Very cool. It's actually a discussion rather than an argument or a pissing contest.

I know this might sound a little simplistic, basic, even childish but I believe that the good in life comes from God and the bad in life comes from man or the devil's suggestion ("Take the fruit", etc.).

I think the saddest thing is that when bad happens we accuse God and the devil dances. God doesn't want us to be wading in the evil, ugliness, decay, etc. so He provided us a way out (Christ/Heaven) and we are allowed to choose to accept it or reject it.

Sure, He can stop all of the bad but He created us to be family, not to be puppets and we can choose an eternity with or without Him. He doesn't send anybody to hell, they choose it.

I know that I have no fear of dying. In fact, I look forward to it. I'd rather be there than here. This is an interesting place to hang out but just like even the best of vacations, Home is home.

It's very cool to be able to talk about this stuff without getting blasted.

agree on all your points 8)

Freypower
12-14-2007, 06:26 PM
wow....deep thoughts from everyone! I have to say that I agree with Soda's post. God doesn't cause someone to go kill someone else or someone to be killed in a drunk driving accident and so on.........it is a human beings choice to pull a gun on someone and shoot them, it is also a humans choice to have way too much to drink and then drive after it. Could God prevent it? Sure....but like Soda said.....that would require Him taking away our freedom of choice.

I can honestly say that when my Mom died I had a really hard time with it. I KNOW she's in heaven and I knew that the moment she passed, but it was hard to let go for my sake. My Mom longed to go to heaven, as she knew it was the greatest reward God intended. From my point of view now days, God not only rewarded her but I was taught so much and became so much closer to Him myself through the entire situation. Can I tell you that this was why she died? That this was God's plan? No.....but I do believe that there is always a reason and nothing happens without Him being aware. If I hadn't had that faith, I probably wouldn't have been around long after Mom died.

This is very interesting. I stated in an earlier post that when my father died (just over 20 years ago, on December 5 1987) he had reverted to Catholicism. He was a scientist and had been an unbeliever all his adult life but faced with death, back he went.

My mother and I, both non-believers, found this hard to deal with. We gave him a non-religious funeral. I suppose I should be grateful and happy that he found the peace and comfort he sought before he died, or as I said in an earlier post, was it just embraced out of fear? My father was a rational person. He wasn't 'fearful' in any way. He'd had 18 months to think about it (he had cancer of the mouth and jaw).

You see, Maleah, there's no 'God's plan' in all this for me, because I don't believe in it. But from my father's viewpoint perhaps the situation with your mother applies to him and even though I don't believe in it, I should think that God called him home? If I could think that would it make it easier for me to believe that it may be possible?

Jeff Cooke
12-14-2007, 06:40 PM
there's no 'God's plan' in all this for me, because I don't believe in it.

I don't mean this to sound smart-assy or smug but, if you didn't believe in air would you still breathe? If you believed that you could breathe under water would it keep you from drowning? If you didn't believe that fire is hot would you get burned? God does have a plan for you. He has a plan for everyone...we just get in His way so we can't see it or we are afraid that we are not in control so we try to rationalize everything into submission to our understanding. It's human.

IN MEMORY OF
©2006 Jeffrey A. Cooke

I know too many dead people
I've attended funerals too often
I don't want to say another goodbye
Or carry any more coffins

It's hard to get so close
Hanging with people day to day
When so many get part of your heart
And then they up and go away

They say it's better to have loved and lost
Than to never have loved at all
But sometimes love takes you so high
That it's so much harder when you fall

I've watered too many graves with tears
Headstones bearing familiar names
The planet still spins without them
But the world is not the same

Puzzles with missing pieces
A picture full of holes
I know that the spirit lives on
But it's hard to hold a soul

I guess I should be thankful
For the time we were able to share
But I would probably be more content
If I could turn and see them there

I guess all we can do is take the risk
Of loving our family and friends
And hope that in this mortal race
We beat them to the end.

Freypower
12-14-2007, 06:49 PM
I can't just make myself believe in something just like that.

Saying 'God has a plan for you whether you believe it or not' is, with respect, not the best way to convince a non-believer that God exists. You have to forget all your assumptions and try another approach.

The poem made me cry, however. You appear to have a gift.

Jeff Cooke
12-14-2007, 11:16 PM
I can't just make myself believe in something just like that.

Saying 'God has a plan for you whether you believe it or not' is, with respect, not the best way to convince a non-believer that God exists. You have to forget all your assumptions and try another approach.

The poem made me cry, however. You appear to have a gift.

Thank you for the compliment on my poem. I'm not trying to convince you (or anybody) of anything. I'm just stating my beliefs. I'm not here to convert, I'm just putting out what I believe and if you believe the same, cool. If not, that's cool, too. I'm walking my path, you (whoever) have to walk yours. I'd never recommend believing in something just because somebody else does (or doesn't). People who do that end up drinking poison kool-aid served by some psycho and dying.

Here's one more of my older poems;

HELLO GOODBYE

by Jeffrey A. Cooke
4/29/91

So many times I think of death
Wondering when I'll draw my last breath
Will it be at a time when I am weeping
Will I fall asleep and just keep sleeping

Will it be a day that I am in great strife
Will it be a day when I enjoy life
I wonder when that day will be
I wonder if you will remember me

What plans will I have the night before
If fate is fact what does it have in store
Will I say I'm sorry in time to right my wrongs
Will I have things in place where they belong

Will I miss this life I don't know
Will I tell you that I love you before I go
Will I leave my family with a stack of bills
Will I have anything worth leaving in a will

Will I be a victim of some senseless crime
Will we have fun together one more time
When I face death's angel will I be brave
Will my dreams be buried with me in my grave

Will weeds grow up to cover my stone
Will I die on a day when I'm all alone
Will I go quickly or slowly when I die
Will I have the chance to say goodbye

Will I be a casualty of law defied
Will I see you again on the other side
While I'm here what can I give
Will I take the time to simply live

The pain for me will finally be gone
Only pain for the living will live on
Will I lose some more or will I win
Will I be at the port when my ship comes in

Will I have chance to thank the ones I love
Will I help them remember promises from above
Will a special friend take time to cry
Will I expire with a groan or with a sigh

Will my name be more than an etching in stone
Will my life add up to more than a pile of bone
Will I be a worthless bum or have found success
Will they say I was cursed or that I was blessed

God help me forget that I am a man
Help me to enjoy life like a child again
Help me to make time to take hold of joy
Let me be free to laugh like a little boy

Help me learn from the past but embrace today
Tomorrow might never come my way
I have no wings but help me fly
Let me take time to live before I die

Someday my time in this life will be done
The days will continue and the world will go on
Death is a brand new beginning not the end
I'll be waiting for you at the Gate my friend.

Maleah
12-15-2007, 03:04 AM
[quote=Maleah]
This is very interesting. I stated in an earlier post that when my father died (just over 20 years ago, on December 5 1987) he had reverted to Catholicism. He was a scientist and had been an unbeliever all his adult life but faced with death, back he went.

My mother and I, both non-believers, found this hard to deal with. We gave him a non-religious funeral. I suppose I should be grateful and happy that he found the peace and comfort he sought before he died, or as I said in an earlier post, was it just embraced out of fear? My father was a rational person. He wasn't 'fearful' in any way. He'd had 18 months to think about it (he had cancer of the mouth and jaw).

You see, Maleah, there's no 'God's plan' in all this for me, because I don't believe in it. But from my father's viewpoint perhaps the situation with your mother applies to him and even though I don't believe in it, I should think that God called him home? If I could think that would it make it easier for me to believe that it may be possible?

I don't know FP.....but I do know that when people know they're dying, they tend to face their own mortality and find belief and faith in a higher power and heaven. For people like my Mother, she believe for many, many years so it's hard for me to explain why I have no doubt. Yes, if he died a peaceful death (by that I mean at peace with his life and death, then yes...you should be grateful because not everyone has that unfortunately. I can understand it must be frustrating for you to have some of us stating that we know with a shadow of doubt through faith that God is real and that He has a plan for us when you don't see it, believe it, or understand how we can believe that. I can't tell you to believe because I've seen miracles happen or because I know I would have killed myself without God in my life. I can't tell you to believe because from what I've heard there is actually more proof that God exists and created the heavens and the earths than there is supporting evolution. It would do me no good to make many arguments for it because it's something that you have to experience, something that if you are truly curious.....you need to research for yourself because nobody is going to have the answers or at least all of the answers. I wish I could give you the answer to every question you must have.....but the truth is...I believe because of faith. I have faith because of what I've experienced in my own life. I do believe that for everything there is a time and a reason......death included.

I am very sorry for your loss FP.....it doesn't matter how long ago it was....it's still painful. My Mom died 10 years ago but it still feels like it could have been yesterday!

Maleah
12-15-2007, 03:06 AM
Jeff your poems are beautiful! As FP said.....you have a gift!

Jeff Cooke
12-15-2007, 03:05 PM
Jeff your poems are beautiful! As FP said.....you have a gift!

Thank you. Interesting that the word "gift" is used because a gift is something that is given to someone and I know Who the gift is from. :)

moonrambler
12-15-2007, 05:11 PM
there's no 'God's plan' in all this for me, because I don't believe in it.

I don't mean this to sound smart-assy or smug but, if you didn't believe in air would you still breathe? If you believed that you could breathe under water would it keep you from drowning? If you didn't believe that fire is hot would you get burned? God does have a plan for you. He has a plan for everyone...we just get in His way so we can't see it or we are afraid that we are not in control so we try to rationalize everything into submission to our understanding.
See, none of those examples work. If I don't believe in air, it's still nearly impossible not to breathe, and without breathing, I'd die in minutes. Same with breathing underwater. If I didn't believe fire is hot, doesn't matter.

But, if I don't believe in God, then what? If I don't believe in Jesus, Christians might say I'm going to hell. But they can't prove it. They can't prove anyone's ever gone to hell. They can't prove there even IS a hell (as is talked about in religious circles, that is). They can only believe in it.

Why did so-and-so have to die, to me isn't always a question about that person. It's a question about the people left behind, who go through the trauma of losing the one they love. Especially when it's a younger person and we can't even say, "well, they had a good long life."

Also, it can be a question about why did a person have to suffer so terribly. It might be a choice for a person to shoot somebody, but it isn't somebody's choice for a five-year-old to die of cancer.

The problem with logical arguments, as Maleah talked about, is that they don't work when it comes to proving whether or not God exists. This is why I said earlier that believers can't lose at these arguments. And soda's right also, that non-believers can't lose either. For the believer, if a miracle happens, God's responsible. If a miracle doesn't happen, that's because it didn't fit God's plan.

A believer probably can't come up with anything that would prove to him or her that God doesn't exist. Can you? What could possibly make you believe that?

A skeptic will look for some sort of scientific proof. Ask for a miracle and get it and repeat the process several times. Then believers say God doesn't work that way.

I think too, it is mainly going to be a matter of experience. A non-believer could, I suppose, try believing for 30 days and see what happens. Try praying, act as if it's all true, do something that involves active belief for at least an hour every day, like praying, reading a Bible, going to church, reading about the experiences of Christians, Jewish people, etc. 30 days would be a good amount of time, I think, to see if you get any personal experience of God or not.

Jeff Cooke
12-16-2007, 06:57 AM
The examples work in the context that they were written in reply to another post. Basically I was saying that not believing in something doesn't make it cease to exist. I can believe that a semi won't hurt me but still become grill mush. I can disbelieve that a stop sign applies to me but it won't avoid an accident or a ticket. Not believing that God has a plan for your life doesn't make God's plan for your life null and void. Personally, I am very glad that God has a plan for me because if it were totally up to me I'd be F-ed!

moonrambler
12-16-2007, 01:10 PM
The examples work in the context that they were written in reply to another post. Basically I was saying that not believing in something doesn't make it cease to exist. I can believe that a semi won't hurt me but still become grill mush. I can disbelieve that a stop sign applies to me but it won't avoid an accident or a ticket. Not believing that God has a plan for your life doesn't make God's plan for your life null and void. Personally, I am very glad that God has a plan for me because if it were totally up to me I'd be F-ed!
The examples do not work because you can't prove that God has a plan for you, while you certainly can prove your other examples. You can believe it all you want, but you can't offer solid empirical, demonstratable, repeatable proof.

Or can you?

Jeff Cooke
12-16-2007, 05:53 PM
The examples work in the context that they were written in reply to another post. Basically I was saying that not believing in something doesn't make it cease to exist. I can believe that a semi won't hurt me but still become grill mush. I can disbelieve that a stop sign applies to me but it won't avoid an accident or a ticket. Not believing that God has a plan for your life doesn't make God's plan for your life null and void. Personally, I am very glad that God has a plan for me because if it were totally up to me I'd be F-ed!
The examples do not work because you can't prove that God has a plan for you, while you certainly can prove your other examples. You can believe it all you want, but you can't offer solid empirical, demonstratable, repeatable proof.

Or can you?

My questions are valid. You're just trying to start an argument (it seems). I can prove to you that God has a plan for my life. I wouldn't be here otherwise. We can keep going in circles if you want but, as I've said more than once, prove to me contrary and I'll gladly supply you with proof.

My examples work in the context of the text, not in the subcontext that you are dwelling on. Asking if you would drown if you tried to breath under water (etc.) even if you believed you wouldn't works for the question itself. If you can answer, "Yes, I believe that I can breath under water without drowning" then I can definitely prove that you're wrong (in that statement).

The proof is all around you whether you close your eyes to it or not. Everything that is playing out in world events right now was written about in a collection of books (the Bible) written before your great great grandparents were even thought of.

You can deny the Bible but you can't deny its' accuracy (well, you can, but that would just be foolish). God even has a wriiten out plan. Mortal man is not capable of prophesying what will happen in a hundred years let alone 2000! What more proof do you need.

I'm not here to give you the answers otherwise you would be my pawn. You have to look for yourself and see what you find. If I tell you there is a man down the street giving away 100 bills and you don't go and look for yourself and take the money then I surely can't prove to you that the man or the money is there.

If you want to see...LOOK!

moonrambler
12-16-2007, 08:36 PM
I'm not trying to start an argument . . . I simply asked you if you can prove God exists. I don't get why I have to first prove that he doesn't, in order for you to prove that he does. I'm not so sure he doesn't exist, either, and I don't know how I would prove that.

If the Bible accurately predicts world events, that also doesn't prove God exists. That might prove instead that there were some really talented prophets writing back then.

You don't know my background or how much experience I've had with any of this or how much I've 'looked' or anything. I've tended to move away from belief and then moved back to it somewhat and then moved away from it again and so on. I keep coming to the conclusion that I can't know.

If you tell me a man is down the street giving out $100 bills and I go down there and get one, fine. I'm asking what practical value is this belief in God, when it's obvious that bazillions of people who believe in God have crappy lives and trauma and tragedy and failure. What they get in return is assurance that it's all ok because God has a plan for their lives.

Now: I said from the start that I'll typically play devil's advocate with whoever is offering an opinion on this subject. So, let me address it from the other side. I do tend to believe that miracles happen, though it doesn't answer that big giant question soda speaks of, as to why bad things happen to good people, why certain miracles happen to some people and not to others.

Sometimes the miracles are actually small things, and those things often seem more 'real' to me than the stuff like: some guy got run over by a semi and came out of it without a scratch so God must've been watching over him. Those stories never make me believe in God. One story that did make me lean more toward belief in some higher power was when I read Chuck Negron's book about his smack addiction and he told of hitting rock bottom, getting dragged into rehab, and he was so sick and exhausted and defeated, and he'd been in the early stages of withdrawal many times before and knew how horrible it was all going to be, so he asked God, if there was a God, for one thing -- not to magically cure him of his addiction or anything like that, but to let him sleep. Because every time he had ever started withdrawal before, he had never been able to sleep at all. And then he was shocked because the next thing he knew . . . he was waking up.

For some reason, that story made me think, yep, there might actually be a God, who would grant a guy a bit of mercy -- maybe not suspend the laws of biology and magically cure him of his addiction, but grant him enough mercy to let him sleep through some of the withdrawal.

Jeff Cooke
12-17-2007, 08:41 AM
I simply asked you if you can prove God exists. I don't get why I have to first prove that he doesn't, in order for you to prove that he does.

And I could ask the same question. That's the circle that we'll keep running around. I've stated my beliefs and I'm not going to keep playing tit for tat to the point of it getting heated from the friction.

Again, I sum it up with the statement; If you seek the truth you will find it. And I'm not going to define truth for you, that's your search.

moonrambler
12-17-2007, 10:28 AM
I simply asked you if you can prove God exists. I don't get why I have to first prove that he doesn't, in order for you to prove that he does.

And I could ask the same question. That's the circle that we'll keep running around.
But I didn't say that I can prove God doesn't exist if you first prove he does. That's your point, not mine.

I can't prove God doesn't exist. You keep saying, though, that you can prove he exists if I first prove he doesn't.

I've asked what would prove to you (or anyone here) that God doesn't exist, and nobody's answered.


Again, I sum it up with the statement; If you seek the truth you will find it. And I'm not going to define truth for you, that's your search.
You don't account for all the people who seek the truth and find an entirely different one than the one you found.

This is where it gets to be impossible, because a truth-seeker needs to be open to all possibilities of truth. I don't think you are open to the possibility that God doesn't exist. No matter what happens, you will believe God exists, and not only exists, but has a personal involvement with everyone's lives.

That is the definition of faith.

Jeff Cooke
12-17-2007, 04:01 PM
[quote]Again, I sum it up with the statement; If you seek the truth you will find it. And I'm not going to define truth for you, that's your search.
You don't account for all the people who seek the truth and find an entirely different one than the one you found.

This is where it gets to be impossible, because a truth-seeker needs to be open to all possibilities of truth. I don't think you are open to the possibility that God doesn't exist. No matter what happens, you will believe God exists, and not only exists, but has a personal involvement with everyone's lives.

See, now you are just being ridiculous because you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Re-read my quote then re-read your response to it. I DID NOT AND WILL NOT DEFINE TRUTH FOR YOU!

No, I am not open to the possibility that God does not exist because that would just be asinine! God is a PERSON and I believe in His existance even more than I believe in yours. I have a relationship with Him, how could I just believe that He doesn't exist????

I never claimed to account for anybody except myself and I've made that clear to most people who aren't trying to be contrary just for the sake of being contrary. This discussion is definitely over for me because you're obviously not reading the actual content you are just blowing smoke for attention.

I've tried to be open and honest and you're just starting to piss me off. If you don't want to believe, don't! If I don't believe in YOU will YOU go away? I don't think so.

I AM open to all possibilities but if I find out that water is wet I'm not going to look for an alternative theory.

You're AFRAID to acknowlege that God exists because you assume that it might be true and you are too self-contained to deal with it.

sodascouts
12-17-2007, 09:12 PM
Sorry I haven't been able to reply earlier but I've been with family.

I don't think there's any need to make things personal. Jeff. you don't know MR or what she fears. MR, you don't know what Jeff is open to, or what defines faith for other people. You guys are making very personal judgments and it's not constructive. It looks like this discussion is beginning to become circular anyway. I'm not sure there's much point in retreading ground by continuing it.

I guess, when it comes to deep theological questions, an Eagles message board isn't the best place to find the answers.

katherine5832
12-27-2007, 12:25 AM
Well, what an interesting thread this is. I just got the CD yesterday, so I'm going to just put in my 2 cents in about the song Frail Grasp on the Big Picture - I think that was the original topic wasn't it? :D

First of all, I, for one, love it when Don rants - probably because I agree with him politically, socially, environmentally, theologically, etc. While I can speak my mind at the polls or with my friends and family or when I stand on the side of a road with a protest sign while our fearless leader's motorcade drives by, I appreciate that Don and the other Eagles can put their thoughts, opinions, and feelings out there for the world to hear. I feel, to a small extent, they (and maybe Don most of all) speak for me.

My take on the lyrics "Good ol' boys down at the bar...Journalism is dead and gone": I don't take that as a slam against "good ol' boys." I don't see it as insinuating that that particular group of people is uneducated. I listen to these lyrics and hear, "None of us know 'much of nothin'.' I see it as an indictment on our nation's (U.S., that is) general lack of interest in politics, current events, cultures other than our own, etc. I also see it as an indictment on the direction journalism has been going for awhile now. For the most part, journalism is dead. Or, if not dead, at the very least, it is tightly controlled. Where were the journalists during the runup to the War in Iraq? Why didn't they ask tougher questions? Sure, there were a few who did, but not enough. I like to think that by reading my local paper, listening to NPR and watching CNN, I'm getting a grasp on the big picture. Not so! I've read numerous books about the Bush administration, the War in Iraq, etc. in the last couple of years that just astounded me with how much I didn't know. Even with my self-education on these topics, I know I'm still not seeing the "big picture", but I sure as hell am trying!

As far as the religion question, one of the funniest lines (to me) in this song is "And we pray to our Lord, who we know is American." I believe it was Freypower who said way back in November that that is sometimes the impression non-Americans get about Americans. Well, how can they not get that impression when we have a president who says, "I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq.' And I did"? Yeah, Don's line is now not only funny, but terrifyingly relevant. It's not too far of a stretch to surmise that Don is referring to Bush as one of the "middlemen" through which God speaks. And don't even get me started on how I interpret his line, "And the right will prevail."

I don't see anything wrong with Don taking institutions to task, be it the media, the government, or organized religion. And I don't see anything wrong with him taking us to task. I don't think he's saying that he's better than the rest of us, but seriously, who among us hasn't thought that at one time or another? I bet if he were to peek in at this board and saw this conversation, he would think that his mission was accomplished. We've opened up a dialogue - and a civilized one at that. We still might not agree with one another and we might not change one another's minds about things, but we are learning more about one another through our differences as well as our similiarities.

By the way, one more way that I can totally agree with Don...Sodascouts cited the following quote from Don:
"I don't experience God listening to a guy yell while I'm sitting in a pew. I see God in Caddo Lake.'" Amen to that Don! I was born and raised a Catholic and still go to Mass every week although I find it harder and harder to go without feeling like a hypocrite. But I can honestly say that the closest I ever felt to a divine being was on a Sunday morning in Wyoming when I was sitting outside a skanky shack at a geology camp outside of Jackson Hole. I was the only one up and I sat outside that shack letting my hair dry in the sun, watching the dew sparkle on the grass, listening to the birds, and just staring at the mountains. That was 20 years ago and I can still "feel" that moment more than any moment I ever spent in church on a Sunday morning. One does not have to believe in the doctrine and dogma of organized religion to know the awesome wonders of the world no matter who or what created them.

Oh, and for the record, I like the song!

Ive always been a dreamer
12-27-2007, 04:39 PM
Well said Katherine - I'm one of those who agrees with much of your assessment here. And one thing is for sure, the song has garnered a lot of discussion, which to me is always a good thing, even when there is disagreement. We can't begin to understand other viewpoints until we open up a dialogue with our dissenters.

sodascouts
12-29-2007, 01:17 AM
And one thing is for sure, the song has garnered a lot of discussion, which to me is always a good thing, even when there is disagreement. We can't begin to understand other viewpoints until we open up a dialogue with our dissenters.

That's so true. Many people are unwilling to listen to those who disagree, preferring to write them off as "ignorant", "morally corrupt", etc., etc. rather than attempt to reach some kind of understanding. They are content with preaching to the choir and participating in a mutual admiration society with those who already agree with them. That is part of what is wrong with America today, IMHO.

Perhaps it's naive, but I truly believe that most people have the same political goal: they want what's best for their country. They just have different ideas on how to accomplish that goal. As I said earlier, I believe Henley is trying to better society as well, and even if I disagree with what he said, his motives are admirable.

sodascouts
11-14-2012, 06:49 PM
Man, this thread got heated. I revive with caution, lol.

Freypower
11-14-2012, 06:57 PM
I still think it's a great song & I still think it's relevant. I wish I knew who played what on it.

TimothyBFan
11-15-2012, 01:25 PM
WOW!!!! Kinda glad I wasn't around when this thread first started. :hilarious: I would have been in all kinds of trouble. JK

As for this song- it speaks to me!!! Like someone hear said, I really like Don's "rant" songs and I also think it's because I agree with him, socially, politically, etc... BUT we also have a love/hate relationship (Don hasn't been told of this yet:shh: I'm waiting for the right moment;)). I don't particularly like his attitude but I agree with the words he puts in his songs and the way he sings them. Make sense?

The first time I sat down to listen to the cd, I did so with the lyrics and this song was a "WOW" song!! You tell them Don! It has Don written all over it to me even tho Glenn is credited also and this is a song I would like to know who wrote what lyrics to.

The one that meant the most to me was...

And we pray to our Lord
Who we know is American
He reigns from on high
He speaks to us through middlemen
And He shepherds His flock
We sing out and we praise His name
He supports us in war
He presides over football games
And the right will prevail
All our troubles shall be resolved
We hold faith above all
Unless there's money or sex involved

And obviously it's the one that had the most "discussion" here earlier. I've left no doubt on how I feel about religion and God, I'm one who doesn't know what to believe. My family were not church goers when I was growing up and so I seeked out my own answers with other family and friends as I tagged along to every kind of church I could find someone to go with in that religion... I tried a lot. Thought I had some answers but never committed and drifted away again.Never "bothered" God with prayers for "silly" things, or anything, for that matter. When my father was sick for 6 years, dying of cancer, I again tried to "believe", in fact the night before he died, after being told we only had a few more days, when at 2 am I stood on my parents deck and asked God to use the blood clot which he'd had for several months to put him out of his pain and 12 hours later he passed away from the blood clot instead of the cancer, I thought my prayer had been answered and I gave Him a big "thank you for listening". That was also the beginning of the end as I lost several other friends and family over the next few years (last summer 5 between May & August with my Mother's death) and many unexplained (bad things/good people). I'm afraid I'm right back to my agnostic ways. So needless to say, I still have LOTS of unanswered questions!! And these kind of lyrics tend to get my attention. Secular Praise, as many of you here know, has a special meaning to me for the same reason.

And the last 2 lines---
We hold faith above all
Unless there's money or sex involved

How many scandals can we think of off hand that involve both of these "evils"?

Another lyric:

Frail grasp on the big picture
All waiting for that miracle elixir
Frail grasp on the big picture
I don't wonder anymore

I have my theory of the "miracle elixir" but I'd love to know what others think.

You my love-drunk friend
All that red wine and candlelight
Soulful conversations
That go on until the dawn
How many times can you tell your story?
How many hangovers can you endure
Just to get some snogging done?
You're living in a hormone dream
You don't have the slightest notion
What long-term love is all about
All your romantic liasons
Don't deal with eternal questions like
Who left the cap off the freaking toothpaste?
Whose turn to take the garbage out?



I met this guy in my 20s----several of them, in fact. :hilarious:

VAisForEagleLovers
11-15-2012, 02:38 PM
It's interesting that we are discussing this now. In other threads I mentioned a recent visit home and while there I went to a club called the Eagles (F.O.E.) that my dad and brother belong to. While there, the verse about the good ol' boys down at the bar was played out before my very eyes and ears.

Normally on nights like that, there would be a hockey game on. The NHL is torturing us, and even worse (for me) the thing on the TV in front of these guys was Fox News. They weren't listening, they were all talking about the liberal news outlets and specifically said 'newspapers'. They read the local newspaper for the obituaries and local news, but that when it came to politics all they did was push an agenda that was clearly wrong. "Can't trust nuthin' you read in no newspaper" is the exact quote. Fortunately, their conversation then turned to an article about a local non-political issue so I didn't have to get up and move elsewhere.

Now, I don't know if that's what Don and/or Glenn meant by these lyrics. I'm just saying it's kind of creepy to be re-reading these lyrics while thinking about listening to that conversation. There were no peanuts, but there were pretzels.

VAisForEagleLovers
11-15-2012, 03:36 PM
Ah, the last verse. First off, I'll say that not only is God American, but he's a Steeler fan. I'm joking of course, but you'd be amazed at how many people actually think that.

I've read back through most of this thread and I can see why it was brought back to life with caution. The whole prayer-at-football games, the quote from the interview with Don, "...but... you know, they ask the Lord to watch over this football game, as if the Lord has nothing else to do. As if the universe is so small that the Lord has time to watch football games.", combined with what the lyric actually says, 'presides' over football games, I see what he's saying. As a Christian, while I strongly believe that God is in the details, I don't believe that He decides at the beginning of a game who is going to win, then works things to make it turn out that way. I totally disagree with Don's quote in saying that the Lord doesn't have time to watch football games, of course He does. I'm just saying He doesn't move the players over the field like a big chess match except perhaps under very rare circumstances.

As I've said in other threads where we're discussing lyrics, looking at the verses and the lines themselves can be thought provoking and entertaining. However at a high level, this last verse is saying that if you think that being a Christian means God is always on your side and no one else's, you're mistaken. If your focus is so narrow that you think your way is the only way and because you're a Christian God automatically enforces that for you, you truly do have a frail grasp of the big picture.

I like how the song hits the big three. Politics, love, and religion. I don't perceive that the song is actually promoting any one political agenda or any one religion. Whether you're Democrat, Republican, or Independent, or some other affiliation, don't ever fall into the trap of thinking you know it all because you can't know it all. Regardless of what religion you are, don't assume that because you think it, it must be Right. And of course, don't assume because you're in lust with someone that it must be a life-long love.

Houston Debutante
12-01-2012, 02:44 PM
As a Texan I confirm that football is a huge deal here. I didn't get offended because none of the criticisms apply to me.

The tune is offbeat and unusual and it's not the best song on there but at least Don and Glenn are trying different things.

Ive always been a dreamer
12-01-2012, 09:59 PM
I actually just got around to reading the most recent posts in this thread when HD revived it today. VA - it am totally with you in your interpretation of this song. Although it's not one of my favorites on the album, I actually like this song a lot. The music rocks, IMO!

HD, I also agree with you and I like the fact that the guys experiment with different types of music. Of course, the experimentation is more successful sometimes than others. However, if they didn't do this, we wouldn't get the ones that work exceptionally well either. :thumbsup:

EaglesKiwi
12-05-2012, 03:07 PM
However at a high level, this last verse is saying that if you think that being a Christian means God is always on your side and no one else's, you're mistaken. If your focus is so narrow that you think your way is the only way and because you're a Christian God automatically enforces that for you, you truly do have a frail grasp of the big picture.
VA, you've hit the nail on the head here (IMHO). There have been so many scary examples of this - and so many lives impacted because people are arrogantly convinced that God automatically endorses their viewpoint...

I really like this song. I think the lyrics are clever, particularly the toothpaste/garbage part (& I love Don singing about snogging. :smile:).

Houston Debutante
12-06-2012, 05:52 PM
I didn't know he said 'Snogging' until I saw the lyrics. I wonder why he used British slang.

Ive always been a dreamer
12-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Maybe it was their way of saying that Americans aren't the only ones who have a frail grasp on the big picture. :thumbsup:

sodascouts
12-07-2012, 06:01 PM
Honestly, I find it to be a bizarre choice. At least he doesn't try to affect a British accent!

Henley Honey
12-07-2012, 06:16 PM
At least it's better than "Shagging". What American slang could he have used? I can think of several but none that would have fit better in the song.

sodascouts
12-07-2012, 06:25 PM
"Snogging" is slang for "kissing." Any word with two syllables that has the stress on the first syllable would have worked rhythmically. Besides the actual word "kissing" which fits that criteria, there is "Frenching" and "smooching" (the latter also has the advantage of a similar opening consonant sound).

However, I suspect that like many Americans, Don might have gotten "snogging" confused with "shagging" and thought of it as a cute substitute for the f-word - in America, we don't have other common two-syllable words for that which would work here, and the f-word certainly fits the context better. This guy is interested in more than just kissing. I can see Don going "I can't use 'f---ing' - what to use instead? What's that British word again?" lol

Who knows. It's their song and they can do what they want. I just find it strange... but I'm just an ordinary (if a bit overly analytical) fan whose opinion isn't worth more than anyone else's.

Freypower
12-07-2012, 06:33 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snogging

I was also surprised in FG that he says 'garbage' & not 'trash'.

And I am sure Don has used another British slang word before, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was.

As an aside I was pleased in LA to hear Glenn use another British term 'bonking' which does mean 'having sex'. I had heard him say it in a bootleg but hadn't heard him say it for real. I think it was before Who's Been Sleeping where he made his Clinton Administration joke.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bonking

Obviously, not being American, I guess it's interesting to hear them use a broader (non-American) vocabulary than I might have expected.

sodascouts
12-07-2012, 06:34 PM
"Boinking" is used in America, too, although it's not common. "Garbage" is actually used quite a lot. It's the term "rubbish" that we hardly ever use in reference to that stuff you have to take out. ;)

EaglesKiwi
12-12-2012, 04:05 AM
Oh wow, you're all analysing the intention behind including the lyric ("snogging") in the song, and shallow me was just imagining it actually happening... :hilarious::blush:

Houston Debutante
12-12-2012, 12:33 PM
I think he probably just thought it sounded better than American words that mean the same thing.

sad-cafe
06-18-2013, 01:28 PM
I am late to this discussion but here is my take.


When Don is talking about Journalism being dead and gone, I think he is referring to "Current News blowhards " and how people will believe anything even lies to support what they want to believe. Todays Journalism is not like it used to be. It is divided and creates sides and no sides really just report the news.


When he talks about God, he is showing his disgust over the way the "Religious fanatics" have taken over religion. "And we pray to our Lord, who we know is American"

I think he is scoffing at the fact that the religious right has co-opted God and that he can ONLY be a white American because that is the way many believe. This new way of thinking that God can only bless Americans and no one else angers me and I related it to Don's rant here and agreed with it.

When he is talking about praying over football games its like saying when people pray only their view point is the "correct" one. Makes me think of the movie American PResident when the jerk opponent kept saying God bless America and no one else.

God doesn't pick sides and he wants the best for ALL no matter what race, religion, sex, or creed. I took that as the point Don was trying to make.

Please don't take offense at my thoughts, I mean no disrespect it is just the way I interpret it. Maybe to my own way of thinking.