You Belong To the City and Baker Street

[Ive always been a dreamer]

When someone makes a remark that states the obvious, it normally means that they are either a.) uniformed or b.) being sarcastic, rude, or condescending. Since I doubt that you are uninformed, FP, then I assumed the latter must have been the case in your previous post. I don't care if anyone agrees with me when we are discussing these kinds of topics, but it does bother me when someone is sarcastic or condescending.

If we are going to quibble over the meaning of the word “similar”, here is how several online dictionaries define the word:

"having a likeness or resemblance, especially in a general way"

"showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical"

"having characteristics in common that are comparable but not exact"

So my arguments that both songs “start out with a slow musical intro and then that sax solo suddenly hits you at full force” qualifies them as similar by definition. I never said or implied that YBTTC did not started with sax.

[Freypower]

OK... one more time; YBTTC is the song that begins with sax from the very first note. Baker Street doesn't. It begins with what sounds like flute but is probably synthesizer. The sax doesn't start until a few bars into the song. And for what it's worth, in my opinion the tempo is quite fast; faster than the opening tempo of YBBTC.

The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.

I am sorry you found what I said condescending because it was not meant that way at all. It appears that we fundamentally disagree that the introductions of these two songs are 'similar'.

[WalshFan88]

I will say I like both songs a lot!

In fact, TIME LIFE just had their special on about Rock Ballads and they had a snippet of Glenn playing YBTTC and so I had to go and listen to the whole song.

[Prettymaid]

Okay, I finally got back here and gave these a listen. I can only find one common denominator between the two songs, and that is the sax.

To my ears you might as well compare them to this one too...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmVbjD9VrE[/ame]

[Ive always been a dreamer]

FP, I appreciate your effort to expand on your comments – it helps clarify what you were attempting to say. Not to beat a dead horse, but, to me, it helps prevent misunderstandings when you explain something rather than just state the obvious. Your last post points out the differences between the two introductions. I acknowledge those differences, but I also believe there are similarities, which have been the focus of my comments. I do seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion with you on this point…

“The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.”

When I talk about similarities between the songs, I’m speaking in generalities, not absolutes. I believe that most people would agree that the songs may contain both similarities and differences – it’s not “either/or”. However, it definitely appears that I am in the minority about how many similarities actually exist. So, with that in mind, I’m going to go ahead and list all the similarities that I see between the two songs …

1. The dominant and forceful sax solos that have basically come to define each song.
2. The slow tempo musical introductions that then lead into the songs’ blistering sax riffs to grab your attention from the ‘get-go’ in a big way.
3. The theme of both songs focuses on urban life – particularly about the loneliness and isolation of the city in the midst of the intoxicating crowds and activity that surround you.
4. The music and lyrics throughout both songs give the feeling of a constant sense of motion, which ties into the theme of the bustling city life, and also give the songs much of their energy.
5. The understated delivery of the verses in the songs, which serves to make the sax solos even more powerful when they come in.
6. The aforementioned understated delivery of the verses contrast with the powerful music to extenuate the songs’ conflicting themes of isolation on the busy streets.

As far as the scorching guitar solo in Baker Street – I may be wrong about this, but I don’t remember it being in the original recorded version. While the recorded version of YBBTC doesn’t have a guitar solo, there is usually an awesome one added to the song during live performances.

[sodascouts]

Okay, I finally got back here and gave these a listen. I can only find one common denominator between the two songs, and that is the sax.

To my ears you might as well compare them to this one too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzmVbjD9VrE

I agree. I think "Baker Street" is no more (or less) similar to "You Belong to the City" than "Harden My Heart" is, except maybe its theme is less "urban" and the sax riff doesn't get repeated as much. Still, it's always interesting to see how people hear things!

[WalshFan88]

I agree. I think "Baker Street" is no more (or less) similar to "You Belong to the City" than "Harden My Heart" is. Still, it's always interesting to see how people hear things!

Definitely Soda. Kind of like a while back we were discussing what lyrics we hear on Glenn's "The Heat Is On". I'm sticking to "the beat's alive, deep inside" after repeated listens. I heard that song many years before being an Eagles fan and then hearing their solo stuff. I heard it on Beverly Hills Cop. One of my favorite movies of all time!

Both YBTTC and Baker Street and HMH are all great songs with great music. My favorite is YBTTC though!

[Freypower]

FP, I appreciate your effort to expand on your comments – it helps clarify what you were attempting to say. Not to beat a dead horse, but, to me, it helps prevent misunderstandings when you explain something rather than just state the obvious. Your last post points out the differences between the two introductions. I acknowledge those differences, but I also believe there are similarities, which have been the focus of my comments. I do seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion with you on this point…

“The sax intro to YBTTC is much slower than the Baker Street solo & I don't agree that it hits you with the same 'force' that Baker Street does.”

When I talk about similarities between the songs, I’m speaking in generalities, not absolutes. I believe that most people would agree that the songs may contain both similarities and differences – it’s not “either/or”. However, it definitely appears that I am in the minority about how many similarities actually exist. So, with that in mind, I’m going to go ahead and list all the similarities that I see between the two songs …

1. The dominant and forceful sax solos that have basically come to define each song.
2. The slow tempo musical introductions that then lead into the songs’ blistering sax riffs to grab your attention from the ‘get-go’ in a big way.
3. The theme of both songs focuses on urban life – particularly about the loneliness and isolation of the city in the midst of the intoxicating crowds and activity that surround you.
4. The music and lyrics throughout both songs give the feeling of a constant sense of motion, which ties into the theme of the bustling city life, and also give the songs much of their energy.
5. The understated delivery of the verses in the songs, which serves to make the sax solos even more powerful when they come in.
6. The aforementioned understated delivery of the verses contrast with the powerful music to extenuate the songs’ conflicting themes of isolation on the busy streets.

As far as the scorching guitar solo in Baker Street – I may be wrong about this, but I don’t remember it being in the original recorded version. While the recorded version of YBBTC doesn’t have a guitar solo, there is usually an awesome one added to the song during live performances.

The guitar solo in Baker Street is on the album version. You may have noticed that it was also in the YouTube version that presumably was the version which was released as a single.

No, I don't agree that the sax in YBTTC is as dominant or as memorable as it is in Baker Street or that it 'defines' the song. Sorry. It's a great hook; yes.

I've already said that I disagree that the opening tempo of Baker Street is 'slow'. And again you refer to the 'slow tempo' leading into the 'blistering sax riffs'. This doesn't happen in YBBTC. The recorded version of the song STARTS with the sax riff. The sax riff in YBBTC does not become 'blistering' until just before the first verse; after the rhythm section has kicked in.

If however you are referring to the live version of YBBTC on Farewell One which DOES start with a slow keyboard intro; then I see what you mean, but I thought we were discussing the recorded versions. The point remains that the sax still isn't 'blistering' at the start of the song in the way the Baker Street sax is, to my ears.

I agree about the lyrics & the sense of motion; but there is one fundamental difference: YBTTC celebrates life in the city. Baker Street rejects it. The 'isolation' in Baker Street lasts for the whole song. In YBBTC it is only when he's alone in his room that he feels isolated.

I agree that the vocals in the verses of both songs are understated but YBBTC has a middle eight & chorus which are the opposite of understated.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I thought long and hard before deciding whether or not to respond anymore in this thread since it seems to have turned in to nothing more than silly bickering between just a couple of people over trivial, petty stuff. I am sorry for that because this was definitely not my intent when I started the thread. I was hoping to have a fun and interesting dialog that pointed out both the similarities and differences of these two songs.

As I have said many times on this board, it doesn’t bother me when others don’t agree with me, but it does bother me if someone twists my words and uses flawed arguments when responding to my posts. And just to be clear, I don’t mind if someone picks my posts apart piece-by-piece, as long as they don’t distort and misrepresent what I wrote. So even though this probably isn’t important to anyone except for me, it is why I felt compelled to respond.

The logic of some here seems to be … “The two songs are different. Therefore, they can’t be similar.” Then, there are rebuttals that take my comments out of context, and are seemingly just for the sake of debate such as …

And for what it's worth, in my opinion the tempo is quite fast

Tempo is not something that is a matter of opinion … the rate of speed is something that can be measured and is, therefore, quantifiable fact. However, my point was nothing more than the tempo in the opening bars of these songs starts out slower, and then the tempo increases in speed.

No, I don't agree that the sax in YBTTC is as dominant or as memorable as it is in Baker Street or that it 'defines' the song. Sorry. It's a great hook; yes.

My comments were never intended to quibble about the degree to which the sax solos dominate each song or how comparatively memorable they are. I never stated or inferred this and specifically said that I was talking in generalities. And, I believe it is pretty much widely accepted that the sax solos are dominant, memorable, recognizable, and immediately identified with each song.

I've already said that I disagree that the opening tempo of Baker Street is 'slow'. And again you refer to the 'slow tempo' leading into the 'blistering sax riffs'. This doesn't happen in YBBTC. The recorded version of the song STARTS with the sax riff. The sax riff in YBBTC does not become 'blistering' until just before the first verse; after the rhythm section has kicked in.

The point remains that the sax still isn't 'blistering' at the start of the song in the way the Baker Street sax is, to my ears.

So now we are deliberating about just exactly when or if the YBTTC sax becomes “blistering”, and then that it may or may not be “blistering”, but either way the sax in the other song is more “blistering” – none of which are relevant to my original point. So OK – I give up and will leave this discussion to others. Honestly, it makes me tired just thinking about it.

YBTTC celebrates life in the city. Baker Street rejects it. The 'isolation' in Baker Street lasts for the whole song. In YBBTC it is only when he's alone in his room that he feels isolated.

Wow! – all I can say is that it sure seems to me that these are the lyrics of someone who feels isolated …

You look at the faces; it's just like a dream
Nobody knows where you're goin'
Nobody cares where you've been

When you said goodbye, you were on the run
Tryin' to get away from the things you've done
Now you're back again, and you're feeling strange
So much has happened, but nothing has changed
You still don't know where you're goin'
You're still just a face in the crowd

To me, the video for the song supports that interpretation. One-night stands are usually for lonely people looking for love in all the wrong places. But that’s just my opinion. I consider both songs to be a commentary on the isolation and intoxication of urban life - not a celebration of it, but that’s also just my interpretation.

In any event, I apologize again to everyone for the unfortunate nit-picking because I know it can make others feel uncomfortable. I prefer not to engage such behavior, and regret that I got caught up in it this time.

[sodascouts]

both of them start out with a slow musical intro and then that sax solo suddenly hits you at full force.

It's true that they both start out slower and then the punch hits. However, the fact that the punch of "You Belong to the City" is a sped up version of the sax line that's already been introduced while the punch of "Baker Street" is the introduction of a new sax line diminishes that similarity of the intros somewhat. I understand that you were not trying to say they were exactly the same, but I think it's a legitimate point to bring up in a discussion comparing the two.

After all, when comparing the two, it isn't just "they are completely alike" vs. "they are totally different." We're talking about a matter of degrees and these type of things help us to gauge the degree of their similarity, in each of our opinions.

I believe the differences of the beginnings lessens the degree of the songs' similarity, in my mind. Of course I recognize that others may disagree.

That said, while "slow" and "fast" are relative terms, I think both songs have a noticeable injection of energy that comes in after a more laid-back intro. Even though their tempos are different, they both have a "OK, now we're kickin' it into gear" aspect after the first few bars. At least, that's the impression I get listening to them.

As I said before, I feel they both have distinctive sax hooks; IMO, it is in this aspect in which they are most similar.

Regarding urban themes:

The protagonist of "You Belong to the City" at the beginning of the song is restless. The night has begun and he's "getting tired of staring at the same four walls." At first he seems to embrace getting lost in the crowd, the rhythm of the city is "in [his] blood." However, I think that the "When you said goodbye" segment turns the song in a new direction. The protagonist now seems dissatisfied - he left the city for a while and he's come back and it's just the same old, same old. He's "still just a face in the crowd" - the addition of the world "just" is significant, I think. The anonymity of city life used to be something he embraced but now he's starting to realize that it can be lonely. I definitely see a darker turn and a sense of isolation at the end of the song that was not there in the beginning. I feel he is striving to overcome that lack of identity with the "you can make it" part. All of this makes it more interesting for me.

In "Baker Street," the tone is negative throughout except at the end when the person is "going home" (which I interpret as getting away from the city that he originally came to thinking "it held everything" and going back to his roots). "You Belong to the City" is more nuanced and the protagonist is more complex, to my way of thinking. However, I respect that others may interpret the lyrics differently.

A theme they share in common, IMHO, is restlessness and the desire to get more out of life than what the city is offering, but "Baker Street" does so in much more simplistic terms with its tales of dissatisfied people who dream of leaving the city behind. "You Belong to the City" concentrates on the psyche of a man who is conflicted and unsure of "where [he's] going." The city is part of him - he's "a man of the street" - yet it's not enough.

Also, I hear a lot more weariness in the voice of Gerry Rafferty. He's given up on the city; no one he sings about is drawn to the city anymore. The city has held nothing but disappointment for them - their high hopes have been dashed. Their restlessness comes either from broken dreams or from the lack of an ability to put down roots rather than an attraction to city life. Again, I respect that some may interpret the lyrics of this song differently. I think we must all keep in mind how subjective lyrics interpretation is.

Back to musical elements:

For me, the driving bass line of "You Belong to the City" gives it more energy and urgency than you find in "Baker Street," which to me has a much more laid-back sound. Indeed, the only part of "Baker Street" I find energizing is the sax and guitar (which at the end, is just as prominent as the sax). On the verses, "Baker Street" loses its verve IMHO, with its twinkly keyboard parts and resigned vocals. There is indeed a big contrast between the verses of "Baker Street" and the sax/guitar - for me, it's like "OK, time to wake up now." lol

There's also a contrast in "You Belong to the City" but to a much lesser extent, as it never loses that sense of urgency. I never get a "sleepy" feel from the verses of "You Belong to the City." I get one from "Baker Street" - maybe I'm the only one who does, but this post is about giving one's own impressions.

I can't speak to the differences between various versions of "Baker Street" as I'm simply working off the one Dreamer linked to at the beginning of the thread. The same is true for "You Belong to the City" - I'm just working with the version Dreamer posted. I'm not saying it's illegitimate to consider other versions, I'm just saying that I'm not doing so.

My conclusion:

The songs have similar elements - most notably the sax - but IMHO, they do not have a high degree of similarity overall. I understand that not everyone will agree with my opinion and am not trying to say that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

I'm always interested in giving my opinion and listening to others. I hope that anyone participating in such a debate understands that it is very possible for more than one person to be right, especially when we're talking about a matter of degree. People have different perspectives. That's the way it is and I encourage folks not to take things like this too seriously.