The great "Hotel California" debate.

[thin air]

I just joined this group because I followed all the country rock groups of the early 70's and had a slightly enhanced perspective as John Michael Talbot and Tim Ayers of the group Mason Proffit were kids in the junior high we attended on the eastern outskirt of Indianapolis, IN. It was a year later (1969) that their first album "Wanted" was released- when JMT was 15 and T-Bone (Tim Ayers) was 16 years old. It featured the tunes "Two Hangen" and "Its Alright". The similarity of "Its Alright" and the Eagles first hit "Take It Easy" were palpable. Mason Proffit shamelessly melded rock with Bluegrass (and every other uniquely American influence)- the banjo and a hard rock rhythm section hadn't really been tried before. Can you name an example? When I first heard "Take It Easy" in 1972 the MP influence was unmistakeable. I am not a musician but all my musician friends would comment when I would turn them on to Mason Proffit that their tuning and chord structuring was very unique. JMT and Terry Talbot wanted to record with Leland Sklar and Russ Kunkle for their 6th album as they felt they had a better feel for accompanying acoustic arrangements- no doubt artistically valid from their perspective but the result lacked the dynamics of drummer Art Nash and bassist Tim Ayers. Art and Tim had definite chops and the skills and groove of the fusion jazz/rock players that were about to emerge. It is very important to note that in 1974 the Talbot Brothers (JMT and Terry Talbot) toured extensively with the Eagles not just as an opening act. They were covering the aforementioned 6th album. Yes, they would open with an acoustic set but the Eagles members would gradually add to the set, meld completely, the Talbots would leave, then re-emerge for the encore songs. The touring no doubt led to a great deal of jamming and sharing. Prior to Mason Proffit, the group was known as the Sounds Unlimited and covered the entire 1960s waterfront, and as a ballad is a ballad, "Two Hangman" also sounded a little like Donovan's "Atlantis" to me. Pull up MP's "Its Alright" on youtube and you may wonder why there isn't more discussion on it in terms of being a seminal influence....

[Musicfan]

Well - I've seen those clips before, and I'm glad that Ian Anderson acknowledges that Hotel California isn't plagiarized. I honestly don't hear that much similarity, but I know nothing about guitar chords. If there is any similarity in the chord sequence, I would think it is purely coincidental. Don Felder, who wrote the music to Hotel California, wasn't even a part of the band during the time that the Eagles opened for Jethro Tull.

I have watched and listened to many interviews that Don Felder has given about his time before, during, and after the Eagles. He describes how before he joined the band he was good friends with Bernie Leadon and he would be invited to their concerts, and "hang out" with them. He says he saw them several times and during one interview he describes seeing them open for Yes in 1971 in Boston, but they were also opening up for Jethro Tull in 1972. So there is no doubt in my mind that Don Felder heard "We Used To Know" before he joined the Eagles and before he wrote Hotel California. However Ian Anderson is such a class act and describes the situation perfectly. The Eagles wrote a great song with some inspiration from We Used to Know.

[thelastresort]

He may have heard it, however I've also no doubt that Felder also heard several hundred if not thousands of songs in the Seventies, so unless it really stuck in his mind I can't see why he'd keep that one close in particular. Further, if he'd heard it back in 1972/73, why did it take him three or four years to record it as a demo (when by the sounds of it he pulled off tape after tape of them) to pass onto Don H. and Glenn, if he was so inspired why didn't he bring it to the table sooner or record it earlier for himself? I'd also be willing to bet that the plethora of demos, jamming, noodling and whatever else he did on guitar meant that inevitably he was going to come up with something that sounded like something already recorded - there are only so many chords, progressions, keys, tempos and tunings in the world.

[UndertheWire]

You know how it usually takes a few hearings before a piece of music takes hold in your brain? Perhaps part of the appeal of "Mexican Reggae" was its familiarity for Don H and Glenn without them realising why it was familiar.

[Musicfan]

He may have heard it, however I've also no doubt that Felder also heard several hundred if not thousands of songs in the Seventies, so unless it really stuck in his mind I can't see why he'd keep that one close in particular. Further, if he'd heard it back in 1972/73, why did it take him three or four years to record it as a demo (when by the sounds of it he pulled off tape after tape of them) to pass onto Don H. and Glenn, if he was so inspired why didn't he bring it to the table sooner or record it earlier for himself? I'd also be willing to bet that the plethora of demos, jamming, noodling and whatever else he did on guitar meant that inevitably he was going to come up with something that sounded like something already recorded - there are only so many chords, progressions, keys, tempos and tunings in the world.

Of course Felder, other members of the Eagles and every other musician in the world hear many many songs, and some of that music influences them either consciously or subconsciously. The influences can manifest themselves at anytime during the creative process which includes "jamming, noodling and whatever on a guitar." It happens all the time. Even Felder talks about this in his many interviews, when he discusses inspiration, and influences on creative ideas. People say that because Felder was not with the Eagles when they opened for Jethro Tull he could not possibly be influenced by the song "We Used to Know". This is simply not the case.

[chaim]

My answer to the question "why didn't Felder write the HC demo sooner if he was so inspired by WUTK when he heard it": This is not how the subconscious works. Subconscious can drag ages old stuff to your consciousness, and you don't remember that you actually heard them somewhere. You think you just came up with them. Then, ten years after that, you put on an obscure record you haven't listened since your teens, and you go "So THAT'S where I got it from". This has happened to me COUNTLESS times.

I'm not saying that Felder was inspired by WUTK, but the years in between don't prove that he wasn't.

A great point from Musicfan, by the way - Felder seeing the band live before he joined them. I'd never thought of that.

[thelastresort]

My answer to the question "why didn't Felder write the HC demo sooner if he was so inspired by WUTK when he heard it": ...

I meant if he was to use more as to plagiarise than be inspired by, which whilst not expressed on here is the way some people seem to see it. Of course, it could stick in his mind and come out countless years later, however if he was to think 'That sounds good, I'll have some of that' then I don't get why he'd wait so long and put it amongst several dozen other takes.

[Musicfan]

I meant if he was to use more as to plagiarise than be inspired by, which whilst not expressed on here is the way some people seem to see it. Of course, it could stick in his mind and come out countless years later, however if he was to think 'That sounds good, I'll have some of that' then I don't get why he'd wait so long and put it amongst several dozen other takes.

I believe most people don't feel he plagiarized the song. Anyway, if Ian Anderson has no issue with it than I don't think anyone else should.

[chaim]

I meant if he was to use more as to plagiarise than be inspired by, which whilst not expressed on here is the way some people seem to see it. Of course, it could stick in his mind and come out countless years later, however if he was to think 'That sounds good, I'll have some of that' then I don't get why he'd wait so long and put it amongst several dozen other takes.

Ok. Sorry, I got it wrong.

[chaim]

This is the song Ian Anderson should hear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooTm...9AE9455A1D9B95