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Thread: WTF??

  1. #11
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC Fan View Post
    FP-

    Totally agree with you. The music is great, but without Don's voice and the amazing imagery in the first stanza of HC that immediately draws you in to the song, it's just a flamenco-y intro.

    I too think that Felder makes himself look bad by saying all this stuff. It's sad. Of course, I can't relate to how he feels artistically about these things, but, to me anyway, Glenn and Don are responsible for him making more money than your average musician will see in a lifetime, no matter how good a guitar player he is.

    I know they sound like they were hard to deal with at times, but let's get real. They are the reason the band was so successful. I don't understand this ongoing bitterness. I read his book and it made me uncomfortable for him. Like some jilted lover writing a tell-all.

    It's a great song, but IMHO, it's not their best. And while the whole album appears to have been built around the theme that was that song, can we ever really say that they wouldn't have come up with something else great, without that riff. Not the same of course, but that was an exceptionally great time for them as songwriters.

    But what do I know?

    I was just thinking about this earlier when someone posted in Don's review thread about HC. The guitar solo is a great hook, but as a child of the 70's I can tell you the DJ's talked over top of it every time. The rule was they had to shut up when the vocals started and every station played by the same rules. So it was, like you said, the first verse that created the imagery for me. Of course, within about a week I was totally sick of hearing the song and I still have to fight the temptation to skip past it when listening to the CD. For me, the best songs are ones I can relate to and I never could relate to HC.

    I also thought earlier about how Glenn and Don were in a real zone at this point in their careers. It may not have been as 'iconic' as HC, it would have been great and successful, and perhaps LITFL would have gotten more kudos if HC didn't exist.

    I don't agree with how people attribute song-writing credits, but I'm sure there's a reason it's done the way it's done. To me, Felder's greatest contribution to the band is the bass intro on One of These Nights. Since that's my favorite song of theirs, I certainly don't mean that as a put down. It sets the mood for the entire song, and I listen to the intro at least five times before letting the rest of the song play. Even better, it was strong enough back in the 70's to be heard over the yapping DJs.

    The teeny-tiny bit of the song that's played on the documentary when talking about Felder giving Don and Glenn the tape isn't a full song that only lacks lyrics. As well, the best guitar part of the song (in my opinion) is where he and Joe go back and forth and he said on the documentary that Joe came up with that. It showcases the talent of both Joe and Felder. I don't really want to downplay Felder's contributions for this song, he did start the whole thing. I prefer the music on VOL, though.
    VK

    You can't change the world but you can change yourself.

  2. #12
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Wow - I pretty much agree with all that's been said and I find it especially grating about how misleading that interview is. For starters, FP is exactly right in that the only time that the order of the credits for Hotel California was changed around was on the HBO CD, and that was because Felder was not the originator of the new acoustic arrangement. Every other release of the song, both before and after HFO, lists Felder first in the credits just as they were on the original album. So to label that as revisionist history is a huge exaggeration and very misleading, IMHO. To me, it was just giving credit where credit is due. I wonder if Felder had rearranged One of Thes Nights for the CD and had been given credit, if he would have complained about revisionist history.

    Additionally, neither Felder, his fiance, or the interviewer made a single mention of the song's lyrics at all. If you listen to the interview, it makes it seem as if Felder wrote the song in its entirety. To me, it is very misleading and anyone who doesn't know a lot about the song would, undoubtably, be left with that impression.

    As far as the debate about the music and lyrics, I actually think they are pretty equal in importance. They are both great independent of one another, but together they became a masterpiece. The music is absolutely riveting and has one of the most recognizable guitar solos in the history of rock and roll. However, if I have to pick one, I would have to give a slight edge to the lyrics. When the song was first released, the lyrics sparked a level of discussion and speculation all across the globe that has rarely been seen. I vividly recall the lyrics being endlessly debated by scholars, clergy, educators, theologians, and Joe the plummer, etc., etc., etc. in every medium available at the time. Also, the lyrics were the inspiration for the concepts of the other songs and overall theme of the album. Without those lyrics, in all probability there wouldn't have been a concept album and I believe some of the impact would have been lost.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

  3. #13
    Moderator Brooke's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ive always been a dreamer View Post
    As far as the debate about the music and lyrics, I actually think they are pretty equal in importance. They are both great independent of one another, but together they became a masterpiece. The music is absolutely riveting and has one of the most recognizable guitar solos in the history of rock and roll. However, if I have to pick one, I would have to give a slight edge to the lyrics. When the song was first released, the lyrics sparked a level of discussion and speculation all across the globe that has rarely been seen. I vividly recall the lyrics being endlessly debated by scholars, clergy, educators, theologians, and Joe the plummer, etc., etc., etc. in every medium available at the time. Also, the lyrics were the inspiration for the concepts of the other songs and overall theme of the album. Without those lyrics, in all probability there wouldn't have been a concept album and I believe some of the impact would have been lost.
    This pretty much sums up how I feel about it. And without the lyrics we would more than likely have never heard the music.
    https://i.imgur.com/CuSdAQM.jpg
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  4. #14
    Border Desperado NYC Fan's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    I just had time to actually watch the interview. I only read the text of it yesterday. I've always thought Jeff Probst was a smarmy jerk, but he really was so irritating in this interview.

    Felder did make a small mention of the track just being an instrumental, near the end of the interview, and Probst immediately diminished the concept of the album and the lyrics, and said the guitar was what makes it memorable. As others have said, it's both that make the song what it is. And the way he read out loud what Glenn said in the documentary, with his snarky delivery, really grated on my nerves.

    I did not know about the rearranging of the credits based on who did the arrangement on the HFO album (learn so much here!), but the way Felder presented it was that they rearranged the credit order on all versions of that song to put him last.

    It was a very misleading interview by Probst with misleading comments by Felder and was clearly designed to make Glenn and Don look bad. I just don't understand it.


  5. #15
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC Fan View Post
    I just had time to actually watch the interview. I only read the text of it yesterday. I've always thought Jeff Probst was a smarmy jerk, but he really was so irritating in this interview.
    Yeah, the only thing more irritating than Jerry Springer is Not Even Jerry Springer aka Jerry Springer Wannabe.

    Having thought about this while cleaning the kitchen earlier, I have to wonder what kind of a person does this sort of thing. I mean, I know 'journalists' do it all the time on networks like MSNBC and Fox News, where only the facts that help your agenda along are presented. Sadly, so many take it as gospel truth because they are too lazy to look up the facts for themselves, or want to believe it's true because it strengthens their agenda. The 'journalists' are paid by the networks to do what they do. Guaranteed, in Felder's next interview, he'll say he's reached out to Glenn and Don and innocently look at the camera and make all those watching wonder why they won't have anything to do with him.

    He's continuing to needle at Glenn and Don. All the things he did as a band member on a daily basis, he's doing in the only way he can. He's not looking for sympathy (although he's swiftly earning my pity), he's trying to make life miserable for Glenn and Don, and even the rest of the band. What he's really doing is making it crystal clear on why he was fired. Glenn and Don don't need to talk about it, Felder is proving their point for those who care to look. It takes more than awesome talent to be a member of the team. To put it in football vernacular, he's more like Terrell Owens than Jerry Rice. The talent is there, but the rest of it is not.
    VK

    You can't change the world but you can change yourself.

  6. #16
    Stuck on the Border GlennLover's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Quote Originally Posted by VAisForEagleLovers View Post
    Yeah, the only thing more irritating than Jerry Springer is Not Even Jerry Springer aka Jerry Springer Wannabe.

    Having thought about this while cleaning the kitchen earlier, I have to wonder what kind of a person does this sort of thing. I mean, I know 'journalists' do it all the time on networks like MSNBC and Fox News, where only the facts that help your agenda along are presented. Sadly, so many take it as gospel truth because they are too lazy to look up the facts for themselves, or want to believe it's true because it strengthens their agenda. The 'journalists' are paid by the networks to do what they do. Guaranteed, in Felder's next interview, he'll say he's reached out to Glenn and Don and innocently look at the camera and make all those watching wonder why they won't have anything to do with him.

    He's continuing to needle at Glenn and Don. All the things he did as a band member on a daily basis, he's doing in the only way he can. He's not looking for sympathy (although he's swiftly earning my pity), he's trying to make life miserable for Glenn and Don, and even the rest of the band. What he's really doing is making it crystal clear on why he was fired. Glenn and Don don't need to talk about it, Felder is proving their point for those who care to look. It takes more than awesome talent to be a member of the team. To put it in football vernacular, he's more like Terrell Owens than Jerry Rice. The talent is there, but the rest of it is not.
    I agree with most of what you said, VK, but I do think that in addition to trying to get back at Don & Glenn he is also looking for sympathy.

  7. #17
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    I think he's looking for sympathy, too. He wants to be perceived as the innocent victim of unethical, greedy you-know-whats.

    Quote Originally Posted by VAisForEagleLovers
    Sadly, so many take it as gospel truth because they are too lazy to look up the facts for themselves, or want to believe it's true because it strengthens their agenda.
    Amen.

    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

  8. #18
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    Yeah - I have to agree ... I think he's going after the sympathy vote as well. But, on this point, I absolutely agree with you, VA ...

    Quote Originally Posted by VAisForEagleLovers View Post
    What he's really doing is making it crystal clear on why he was fired. Glenn and Don don't need to talk about it, Felder is proving their point for those who care to look. It takes more than awesome talent to be a member of the team. To put it in football vernacular, he's more like Terrell Owens than Jerry Rice. The talent is there, but the rest of it is not.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

  9. #19
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    Default Re: WTF??

    The interviewer is attempting to create drama here and Felder kind of takes the bait. What a shame! Can't stand these ridiculous talk and "reality" shows!

  10. #20
    Out on the Border Turf's Avatar
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    Default Re: WTF??

    The fact of the matter is that song-writing credits are a big deal when it comes to musicians. They are official, agreed-upon, representations of work and creativity. It is a standard practice for listing order to represent the significance of contribution, as was the case with Hotel California. So, for Frey and/or Henley to rearrange the order of the credits for Hotel California on HFO, behind Felder's back, is unethical. Sorry folks, it is what it is.

    I'm trying to imagine what the reaction would be like if the credit order had been Henely, Frey, and Felder and then Felder had somehow conspired to rearrange the order to Felder, Henley, and Frey. Would people be saying Henley and Frey should just "get over it?" I kinda doubt it.

    As far as Frey deserving a higher position due to his suggestion of the rearrangement, that's just flat out invalid.

    • They did not rewrite the song; they rearranged it - although Felder did write a new introduction. The writing credits for the song should not change. If anything, Felder could argue that the introduction should be credited separately.
    • If I suggest you write a song and then you go write a song, do I deserve more credit for the song than you? No, I don't deserve any of the song-writing credit. Frey made the suggestion of the acoustic version, Felder did all the writing associated with the version.
    • If another band had published that version of Hotel California, would they have been justified in listing their names ahead of Felder, Henley and Frey as writers of the song? No, they would not.
    • Even if you buy into the idea that Frey's suggestion entitles him to be higher on the credit list (which, again, is invalid), there is no justification for moving Henley's name ahead of Felder's name.


    As for the point that this only happened on HFO, I would like to point out that I have purchased the published music for the Hotel California album. The title song is credited as: Don Henley, Glenn Frey, and Don Felder.

    To put it simply, writing the vast majority of the music for Hotel California is the most significant professional accomplishment in Don Felder's life (in my estimation). If, years after the fact, your co-workers conspired behind your back to change the representation of your most significant accomplishment so as to minimize your contribution, I wonder how you would react. I suspect: not well...

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