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Thread: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

  1. #171
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Quote Originally Posted by WalshFan88 View Post
    Again, as I said in my last post - you do need to be present in conversation, in the place you are at, and mindful. But the other side needs to be respectful about how they go about showing their disdain for people. Otherwise we may just not go to dinner with you anymore and may remove the hassle altogether, and instead choose to sit at home and eat and yep - use our phone
    Oh my gosh, this is such a sad statement, and you don't even realize it!

    This is what I worry about. That people are so attached to their phones that if their friend has a problem with it, they would rather sever the friendship than try to work out their phone issues.... and wind up sitting alone at home with their phones 24/7... and not even realize they've lost something important.

    You talk about a huge generation gap, but I'm in the generation that gets technology. I'm in that transitional generation - old enough to remember what it was like before the internet, young enough to love my smart phone and use it every day just like you do. My generation invented smart phones, texting, and social media. We were the first ones to use it and popularize it. I was using AOL message boards and AIM (AOL Instant Messaging) in the 90s. I was using Facebook when the site was only open to college students. But maybe this dual perspective allows me to understand that both have value and that you can't completely disconnect from the people physically around you in favor of the digital world. You need both.

    How about this: "I don't agree with my friend and I think his attitude about phones is over the top, but I value my friendship with him. I'll humor him and put away my phone for 60 minutes while we eat." Is it really too high a price to pay?

    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

  2. #172
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    I should clarify. I still think there is a generation gap, but I'm not saying everyone is like that. I personally believe there is a big gap between generations, the biggest being between the baby boomers and the Gen Y/millennials. Some boomers tend to think we are worthless. That's fine.

    Maybe my statement was a bit harsh and probably reactionary about not going to dinner (I was a bit upset at the time of posting by this idea that people who use phones at dinner are so bad), but it's just as sad to me to see older people chastise the younger generation for anything. They usually follow it up with "well if they didn't do X or they started doing X again they wouldn't get blowback". No, how about it's not up to you to decide what we do! We are different than our ancestors. And I find that to be wonderful! If I criticize them for being ancient with their thinking or their antics, they'd tear me to ribbons - and that's what they need to remember about attacking young people. Respect your elders, sure, but they can also respect us. Just because you are a certain age doesn't mean I give you unconditional respect. As with any age, that is earned. I'm not going to put up with your attitude just because you are a senior citizen. If people give me crap, they should expect to receive it back. That goes for all ages, genders, and walks of life. You reap what you sow. If you want to go to dinner, I will try to not use my phone and only use it when I feel it's right and not be glued to it. And similarly, I insist that you try to be cordial and also present in conversation. It works both ways, IMO, Soda.

    Soda, while I agree it isn't too much of a price to pay, I also expect the other side to not say anything if I happen to glance at it out of habit without even touching the damn thing. It's a balance. To me the anti-phone people can be pretty exhausting to be around and I think if I'm going to go without my phone, which I will, you also best be present and engage in conversation. I'm not saying I would do what I said in that quote, but the people who don't like the technology and stuff need to be respectful too and realize that time moves on, and that being stuck in the past is annoying to younger people, just as much as they are annoyed by us. However we can learn to keep that to ourselves and just put it all aside.

    Quite frankly people are so judgmental these days and especially older people that if I'm going to put in the time and investment to go eat with an anti-phone"r" (when I truly am happy eating alone or with someone else who thinks like me and is cool with phones), if you rake me over the coals about ANYTHING, that will be the last time until I receive an apology from whoever it is. I will compromise. Is that too much to ask? Surely not. It's all about balance and compromise. I refuse to do my part only to have someone give me crap anyway or to not hold up their end of the deal.
    -Austin-
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  3. #173
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    I really wish social interactions weren't this difficult. I wish society was different. I'm afraid more and more people will become hermit crabs and stay by themselves, and when something does happen to the internet or power grid, we are pretty much screwed. I think a lot of people favor online interaction simply because people can't get along anymore. And if someone is a jerk, it's very easy to completely erase them from your online life. Not so easy to do with Bob down the street. Be it the political climate, the generational divide, whatever - it's pretty bad. Some people are going to say "people are offended so easily anymore" or "I hate PC". To me I say, no, people got tired of taking it, and now they are revolting. Good on them.
    -Austin-
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    #NOGLENNNOEAGLES

    RIP Glenn Lewis Frey 1948-2016
    "People don't run out of ideas, people just run out of time..."



  4. #174
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Austin - I think you make some valid points, but are over-generalizing both sides of the issue. I may have posted this before, but one personal incident that always sticks in my mind is when two of my nieces wanted me to invite the family over my house for dinner because they didn't get to see each other often enough. So I did, and what happens? The same two nieces are sitting in the family room with everyone and all this conversion going back and forth and what are they doing - they are sitting there with their phones texting one another and totally disengaged from the family. So, call me crabby if you want, but you better believe I said something to them. As others have said - it's about common courtesy and social interaction.

    I will only make a couple of more points about this ...

    First, if you want to change things in this world, you don't do it by withdrawing from society - you make it happen by uniting and collaborating with other people.

    Secondly, I promise you, as you get older, your perspectives change and new things will come along that you will think are not for the betterment of society.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    I think it just drives home it's all about perspective and what your background is and how you were raised, etc. Your nieces probably didn't realize it would bother you, but because you are from a different time and come from a different raising or values about ethics/morals/manners/etiquette - it bothered you. In that case, I'd have to say neither side was wrong, JMO. This goes back to the whole division thing. I will say I think the anti-phone side has a legit point too, but they are also shifting some of the blame at the same time. One side is not guiltier than the other. I'm willing to compromise, but they need to back down some.

    Again, I must say - I'm all for collaborating and social interaction Dreamer, but if I'm doing my part and complying with their demands (I mean requests!), I expect the other side of the aisle to do their part too and try to be amicable. That seems to be missed here. I have a huge problem with people who insist on us doing something, and we can't tell them to do the same (AKA, quit whining about how we do things differently). As I've said a couple of times now - I'll put my phone down for an hour and eat with you, but there better be equal amount of effort on your part to make it worth my while and be kind. You better be present, a good listener, and a good conversationalist. IE, you don't get to make all the rules and I have to follow them. I get to set some conditions as well. I feel like if someone is going to tell me not to do something or how to do something, I get to tell you the same thing, and tell you not to do something you do (complain) or to do something (be present and worth my time, energy, and frankly $). That's all I ask.

    I think the anti-phone or anti-millennial side is every bit as guilty as we are. They like to "parent" us. They also see theirselves as authority figures over us, when IMO, they cease to exist after you are 18 or so and the only parents you need are the ones who brought you into the world. I'm a big believer of BYOB - be your own boss. But that's a whole other kettle of fish I won't get in to which is likely to cause even more controversy here among the spectrum of viewpoints, and again, is a product of how I view things with a very modern and young lens. Again, I'm willing to compromise. But that requires your effort, too. That's fair.

    The only parting comment I will say is this. Yes, you have the right to want your dinner company to be present and in the moment with you. But, the people who perhaps have different views have the right to not be dragged through the mud for them. Sure, the answer is not to withdraw from society. That's clear. But that's exactly what will happen if one side of the equation keeps going for the jugular of the other side. It may not solve anything, but it's frankly less headaches for us, and we aren't having to listen to things that hurt us and are blatantly disrespectful. Even if it's not a resolution of the issue, I'm personally going to choose the path of least resistance. I get easily hurt, and I will withdraw if that's what it takes to keep my sanity. I'll try to be social and collaborative, but after taking several verbal beatings, I'm going to have to bow out, at least for awhile. Maybe because I was bullied and I was tolerant and I let them keep doing it until I was on the brink of suicide that I react the way I do and see things the way I do. Maybe it's true, the younger generation isn't as tough as the older generation. Maybe we are more sensitive. Personally, I don't see that as a bad thing. Feelings matter! The bottom line: if you are going to criticize me, you best be perfect yourself. Otherwise don't go crying when we finally choose to stand up for ourselves. I think that is more than fair to ask, and if that's too much to ask maybe it's time to take a good long look in the mirror.

    Disclaimer - when I am saying "you", I mean the people who think the way I'm describing and not anyone on here in particular. I'm only referring to Dreamer's incident in the first paragraph.
    -Austin-
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    #NOGLENNNOEAGLES

    RIP Glenn Lewis Frey 1948-2016
    "People don't run out of ideas, people just run out of time..."



  6. #176
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    This is relevant not only to this thread but to this forum also. Lol.



    Is it just me or is there absolutely nothing wrong with this pic?! Who is the meme-maker or for that matter the photo taker (which if they did take it to push a narrative that would be ironic and hypocritical at best if they used a phone to take that picture!) to say those people aren't happy and comfortable in that situation. Things aren't like they were. Better/worse/indifferent - who cares. We have to always be moving forward regardless of that and we have to realize antiquated ways of doing things and societal norms have to change as do our viewpoints on social behavior of humans and the influence of technology on said behavior.

    Now I consider myself an old soul and old school with my tastes in music and tastes in other entertainment like movies and such - but technology, social media, and politics are not one of those areas. I'm a very progressive person in all of those areas. As long as all the people at that table were good with everyone on their phones - who cares! If you don't want to do it fine. If you don't want your tablemates doing it, take it up with them (although it could lead to friction and lack of involvement from future engagements, including from the phone user). But if a table of people you don't even know are all on their phones, then MYOB!
    -Austin-
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    Fan Of The Eagles 1972-2016
    #NOGLENNNOEAGLES

    RIP Glenn Lewis Frey 1948-2016
    "People don't run out of ideas, people just run out of time..."



  7. #177
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Oh and here's something I thought of.

    Don Henley hates cellphones at concerts. How long before this pouch gets implemented at Eagles shows?



    I'm sure it is a big cost to the artists for these pouches to be rented or purchased and for the staff with unlocking stations to be there. They put your phone in the pouch outside the venue before you go inside or even go through security. You get to keep your phone on you (which is the only admirable thing about this invention), but you have to silence it (vibration only) AND put it into a locked pouch that requires a strong magnet to pull open. If you get caught tampering with said pouch once inside by cutting it open or telling them you have no phone and they catch you inside the venue with it - you're thrown out immediately. Also if you destroy your Yondr pouch, you won't get just thrown out. You either pay the $50 bucks for the cost of the pouch, or the cops are getting called. They aren't disposable. You must return them after unlocking.

    Yondr's rationale is that if you need to make or take a call, there is a lobby area with an unlock station that can open it, but the people standing there to unlock it will watch you and make sure you lock it when you're done. There are also unlocking stations at the end of the concerts outside on your way out and you give the pouches back to the staff. Hard to say how much time it adds on the way out and the lines to get your phone unlocked so you can catch a cab and leave. Oh happy day. It takes long enough to get in and out of a venue, especially the big ones. This will definitely make this even more of a travel nightmare.

    Personally - not only would I never go to a show with these implemented, I would be majorly turned off and quit financially supporting the artist and not buy anything. If you have a no phones out rule that's one thing and if you are caught you are removed like the Eagles do it now. But to lock MY personal possession and lifeline in a bag that if it malfunctions I or the Yondr people have to cut it open and potentially damage the phone - and I'm PAYING you to come see you, you can forget it. If any of my favorite artists sign on with Yondr - it won't be good. I'm just one person, but I won't be alone. Most other millennials like me will also likely revolt.

    So far Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, and Jack White (who we've discussed recently) are the big named entertainers that have implemented these magnetic pouches in their shows and are not optional.

    I'm not going to touch on the school issue is that is a different issue entirely and I can vouch for their use there way more than making an adult use one to be able to see something they paid for.

    I just KNEW it was a matter of time before the anti-phone crowd came out with something like this. I can't believe I didn't hear about it until today. What's funny is the Yondr CEO is a fairly younger guy. I guess I shouldn't be so hard on the older generation. You can be a fuddy duddy at any age!
    -Austin-
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    Fan Of The Eagles 1972-2016
    #NOGLENNNOEAGLES

    RIP Glenn Lewis Frey 1948-2016
    "People don't run out of ideas, people just run out of time..."



  8. #178
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Quote Originally Posted by WalshFan88 View Post
    This is relevant not only to this thread but to this forum also. Lol.



    Is it just me or is there absolutely nothing wrong with this pic?! Who is the meme-maker or for that matter the photo taker (which if they did take it to push a narrative that would be ironic and hypocritical at best if they used a phone to take that picture!) to say those people aren't happy and comfortable in that situation. Things aren't like they were. Better/worse/indifferent - who cares. We have to always be moving forward regardless of that and we have to realize antiquated ways of doing things and societal norms have to change as do our viewpoints on social behavior of humans and the influence of technology on said behavior.

    Now I consider myself an old soul and old school with my tastes in music and tastes in other entertainment like movies and such - but technology, social media, and politics are not one of those areas. I'm a very progressive person in all of those areas. As long as all the people at that table were good with everyone on their phones - who cares! If you don't want to do it fine. If you don't want your tablemates doing it, take it up with them (although it could lead to friction and lack of involvement from future engagements, including from the phone user). But if a table of people you don't even know are all on their phones, then MYOB!
    Well, Austin - This is one of those things that we just have a fundamental disagreement about. I am not making any judgment about these individuals, but, to me, this is a sad commentary on our society today. You complain about the issues we have today in our very divided country, but how are we ever going to solve this if we don't communicate and understand one another. There are many positive things about cellphones and other technology today for sure. But, there are also some very negative things. This kind of technology allows people to hide behind their 'device' and behave in ways that they would not do when they have to confront someone face-to-face. I think a lot of the venomous social behaviors we see today are a direct result of technology. I believe this is a form of isolation that is very unhealthy for a civil society, so, I am judging that.

    Do these people have a right to be a 'prisoner of their own device'? Absolutely, as long as their rights don't interfere with the rights of others. Would I confront these individuals if I saw this in real life? No, I would mind my own business as long as they weren't violating my rights. But, I do care and I definitely believe I have a right to an opinion about the cultural impacts.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

  9. #179
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ive always been a dreamer View Post
    Well, Austin - This is one of those things that we just have a fundamental disagreement about. I am not making any judgment about these individuals, but, to me, this is a sad commentary on our society today. You complain about the issues we have today in our very divided country, but how are we ever going to solve this if we don't communicate and understand one another. There are many positive things about cellphones and other technology today for sure. But, there are also some very negative things. This kind of technology allows people to hide behind their 'device' and behave in ways that they would not do when they have to confront someone face-to-face. I think a lot of the venomous social behaviors we see today are a direct result of technology. I believe this is a form of isolation that is very unhealthy for a civil society, so, I am judging that.

    Do these people have a right to be a 'prisoner of their own device'? Absolutely, as long as their rights don't interfere with the rights of others. Would I confront these individuals if I saw this in real life? No, I would mind my own business as long as they weren't violating my rights. But, I do care and I definitely believe I have a right to an opinion about the cultural impacts.
    I guess my problem with this meme is that I don't believe those people are in fact "prisoners of their own device". I don't see it as an addiction that is anywhere on the same level of alcoholism, crack addicts, IV drug users, etc. A lot of people think that you must be addicted or unable to control yourself if you love your smartphone that much. But it's just not true. I think people can become distracted by their device and not realize how much time in one sitting, but I don't think it's an addiction that needs rehab, an intervention, or a special detox program or camp. People can become distracted by TV programs, video games, or other forms of entertainment. Before kids had smartphones it was a tv program they wanted to finish before mommy sent them to bed. Then it was Pokemon. Then it was Xbox and Playstation. Then Fortnite. This is why both Apple and Google with their recent operating systems have offered a feature to not lock you out of your phone but to just send a reminder that you've been scrolling through Instagram for an hour, or watched Netflix for 3 hours, and it might be time to take a rest. And yes, if you truly cannot stop yourself, you yourself can set it to disable that app for a few hours. But YOU do it, not someone else. On iPhone it's called Screen Time, and on Android it's called Digital Wellbeing. And for parents - for years now there has been parental controls for timeouts, designated usage, website blocking, etc on smartphones and tablets.

    I have no qualms about your comment on the fact that keyboard warriors are prevalent. Don't I know it! But where we differ is what causes it. What causes it and what platform enables it is two very different things. What causes it is often a problem with the person themselves. They just use technology as a platform to spout their vitriol. But yes, the ability to be anonymous and just use a screenname enables this. But then again I know people on Facebook use their real full first and last name and spout vitriol and they know some of their Facebook friends in real life and even meet with them regularly. It's still not a face to face conflict, but people know you and some of your social media friends can know you in real life. And frankly, there have always been groups of people that get together and bounce negativity off of one other whether it's gossip, talking behind someone's back, or making comments they would never share outside the lunch where they all privately sit and say those things. You can have an echo chamber in real life or online. I personally know there have been hate groups in real life before social media where people group together in real life and are evil and do terrible things, have a messed up belief system, etc. I don't need to name them, but KKK for one. What causes it is often someone's upbringing and antiquated viewpoints on religion, politics, ethics, morals, etc. People think they can shield behind their beliefs to enable them to target certain groups. It's like pit bull dogs. It's not the dogs, it's the owners. One bad owner breeds their dog with another pit bull dog, and those aggression tendencies are genetically sent down the chain and family tree. The dogs weren't created any more aggressive than a tea cup yorkie. Don't shoot the messenger, in other words. Instead of blaming phones, I think it's time to redirect it to the people who act like this. It's too easy for these nasty people to throw out excuses and hide behind some old outdated way of thinking to rationalize and justify their rude behavior. We are divided, and yes we do need to communicate. And yes, there needs to be in person communication. But that doesn't mean those of us who favor one method over the "old fashioned way" is in any way bad. Change is good, and should never be feared or avoided.

    The difference between those who hide behind their anonymity online and the people who spread hate and nastiness in person is that most of those people are only saying that stuff in person with likeminded individuals behind closed doors and most try to hide their bigotry and racism. But it can still seep through the cracks. But let's face it, there is a lot of in person violence and discrimination and hate crimes all the time. There are people who bully people in real life all the time. I was one of the victims, I can speak from personal experience. And my experiences were pre-iPhone/Facebook/Twitter/etc btw. Can we really put 100% of this on technology? No. Is it a platform to do it on yes. And I think Facebook, Twitter, and other social networks need to be more proactive in deleting, hiding, and blocking that type of content and offering bans to those who abuse the platform. Alex Jones was banned on almost every platform largely in part after his comments about Sandy Hook being a hoax and then having his lunatic followers threaten and otherwise bother the families of the victims of that tragedy. We need to see hate speech accounts banned. We need to have more stringent reviews of reported posts and more harsh warnings. We need to also not allow political propaganda with false information not to be shared on Facebook, Twitter, etc. This is a big problem. Cambridge Analytica interfering with Hillary Clinton's campaign made me irate and is wrong. The potential for voting systems to be hacked or altered by Russia or another foreign entity is a MAJOR concern. But voting machines aren't smartphones. We don't vote via Facebook. But it IS still technology.

    Social media is not perfect. Point blank. But I can't help but picture the character in the movie The Waterboy who was Bobby's mother who kept saying "foosball (football) is the DEVIL" and picturing some of the people who are so up in arms about it. Maybe instead of blaming the platform, it's time to blame the people. And yes, until people can control themselves and kept their hatred to themselves (or better yet, gain a better personality and a modern belief system), make the social networks enforce rules, react to reported posts, and ban people after only one warning. But we need to work on ourselves more than we need to do something about the smartphone revolution. Because to me, the reverse would be like putting a bandaid on a sliced artery. It just won't work. People have to change themselves. It's too easy to blame the venue.

    If anything - these people have always thought this way, it's just that we didn't know they did until they had a platform to broadcast it. Some do it with their name attached, some under a random screenname. But this line of thinking and hatred has always been here. It's just been kept under wraps. And more than I'd blame social media for anything, I'd blame the last election for telling some of these people it's ok to hate.

    Speaking for myself, I have far more online friends than in real life friends. In my experience, I have found more real loyal friends online than I have in person. Have I had some bad experiences, absolutely. But I've had very bad luck trying to form lasting relationships in real life. And no, it's not me. Well, maybe it is in the sense I used to let people walk all over me. But it wasn't because I was some jerk or standoffish.

    Bottom line - of course you have a right to your opinion. But other people don't have a right to use that opinion to beat the other party over the head. I'm fine with differing opinions, but when it starts either affecting me or if I feel attacked, I'm going to revolt and make it known. Of course Dreamer you aren't guilty of this. But the person who made this meme, the people who share it, and others that bash smartphone users or the use of smartphones or try to pull on heartstrings about how sad some little boy is going to be because he's using his phone in front of his grandpa get no respect from me and I will react.

    So while you are ok with it as long as it doesn't affect you or others, I'm more in the camp of I'm ok with it as long as it doesn't affect me. I don't try to police people to protect other people from their actions. I did that once in junior high. A son of a family friend who was a couple years behind me was being bullied on the bus by his classmate and I stepped in and stopped it. After we got off the bus, that kid came up to me and was mad at me for sticking up for him and made him feel like he needed me or couldn't stop it himself (even though he clearly was not handling it well) and in a roundabout way basically said it made him feel weak or that it might lead to future bullying for him because I had to help him. From that day forward I don't try to protect anyone from anyone else who doesn't ask/want me to. Again, minding my own business.
    -Austin-
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    Fan Of The Eagles 1972-2016
    #NOGLENNNOEAGLES

    RIP Glenn Lewis Frey 1948-2016
    "People don't run out of ideas, people just run out of time..."



  10. #180
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    Default Re: The issue of Phone camera's and other issues in concert

    Well, I think the meme is implying that people are so addicted to their phones they're unable to talk to other people even when those people are sitting right in front of them, and they think that's kind of sad. And I must agree, I don't think it's cool to be with someone and ignore them so you can play on your phone.

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