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Thread: The original lineup underrated?

  1. #21
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    Yes, congrats, Toni!!! I, too, always enjoy your posts!
    VK

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  2. #22
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    I tend to agree with MC that the original lineup is probably more unknown than underrated. Not really that surprising when you consider that many fans don't know the names of the present lineup.

    And congrats on becoming a Border Rebel from me too, Toni. Thanks for your insightful contributions to the board and to many more posts.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    Thank you. I didn't realize I'm now a Border Rebel.

    EDIT:

    Maybe they are more unknown than underrated. There are couples (at least in movies) who don't get along anymore, but at least they recognize that they made some lovely children together. It seems that even Glenn doesn't realize how many terrific babies the original lineup produced, even if they had problems.
    Like I've said twice already, they (the band included) always talk about all the problems, problems, problems they had. But I must say that when I listen to the stuff on those first three albums, I don't tend to go "This would sound so much better if they had gotten along better". Maybe they weren't a dazzling live band, but they sure could come up with great stuff in the studio.
    Last edited by chaim; 02-17-2015 at 04:50 AM.

  4. #24
    Stuck on the Border Jonny Come Lately's Avatar
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Funk 50 View Post
    I do believe, however that nearly all the early up-tempo rockish tracks would sound better re-recorded with Walsh in the mix.

    By the same measure, I think some of the ballads on Long Road Out Of Eden would sound great performed by the original quartet.
    I definitely agree with you about Long Road Out Of Eden - I think part of the reason why they had to bring in so many session players on that album is because the Don-Glenn-Joe-Tim lineup doesn't have the correct skill set. None of them as far as I'm aware can play pedal steel or mandolin, any such parts in earlier Eagles songs were originally played by Bernie and then went to Felder after Bernie's departure. With Bernie there would have been no need to bring in a session musician to play the pedal steel part on Do Something, for instance (the irony being that this was one of Tim's vocals!). Similarly, I think it's not difficult to imagine Bernie playing quite a lot of Steuart Smith's guitar parts on the album.

    I can definitely imagine some of the songs turning out great with the original four. Hearing them play Center Of The Universe in particular would have been great I think - their peerless harmony vocals and Bernie's ability to play any stringed instrument would have fitted that one perfectly. Of course we are lucky in that we do have a version of one of the LROOE songs played this quartet, this being the original How Long. Having said this, the LROOE line up is better suited to songs like the title track or Somebody, as well as most obviously Joe's two songs, and the horns and sax parts on Fast Company and No More Cloudy Days would have required additional musicians at any stage in the band's history.

    I like the early rockers as they are although one thing I do think is that on the first two Eagles albums they hadn't really established their own sound as rockers yet - as much as I love Out Of Control for instance it doesn't really sound like how I'd expect an Eagles song to sound whereas Already Gone has their mark stamped all over it, to the point where I find it difficult to imagine any other band playing that song in that way. If there's one early rocker I'd like to have had Joe on then it would be Outlaw Man, the Seattle performance of that is absolutely first rate. By contrast I would not change Take The Devil, where I think the lead guitar on the original - by Glenn - essential to the 'alone in the desert' atmosphere of this song and as great as Joe is I fear this would have been lost had he been there to play lead at that time.

    As far as the original lineup goes, I do think they're underrated. My overall favourite Eagles album is Hotel California, but my second favourite is Desperado and On The Border is third, while I also rate the debut album higher than most. By contrast I've always felt that the wider public and critics consider One Of These Nights to be the next best studio album after HC and Greatest Hits Volume 1. Admittedly GH Vol 1 does feature six tracks by the original line up with only Already Gone and OOTN being Felder showcases (he does play lead on TITTL, but that's hardly the song's main attraction) but as only one of these songs is by Randy and none are by Bernie this just emphasises to me how the original quartet are underrated.

    I once read an opinion that OOTN was essentially the same things the band had done before, but better. I have to disagree - Desperado is the best album the pre-Walsh Eagles did, and OOTN is definitely not as coherent an album. In fact, I don't think GH Vol 1 is, either. Certain Kind Of Fool and Bitter Creek may not be hits but I think they are great songs which also form part of an even greater whole. This isn't true for OOTN which has two of my least favourite Eagles songs (one of which is written and sung by Felder, the only non-original member at the time). One thing I will say is that the HOTE tour has perhaps improved recognition of the music they produced with several songs from Desperado and Train Leaves Here This Morning being included.

    (As an aside, one vaguely relevant whinge I have is that Fleetwood Mac, though I do like them a lot as well, always seem to get a significantly easier ride than the Eagles. For instance, Chug All Night's 'We're gonna do a little chuggin'/We're gonna do a little huggin'' always gets criticised whereas FM seemed to got away with 'We will never forget tonight/We're gonna be alright' several times over on Tusk's Never Forget. Likewise, and more relevant to this thread, the original Eagles lineup is dismissed as not being able to rock whereas the weak original version of I'm So Afraid on FM's White Album rarely receives these comments.)

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    I don't think it's just Glenn's lead guitar that contributes to the "alone in the desert" atmosphere in Take The Devil. It's his rhythm part as well. The way he first comes in (that sustained "dummmm" chord), it's brilliant. He plays very sparingly, often just root notes of the chords as opposed to adding even the 5th. Brilliant. Although he does this on CKOF as well, here it really supports the "desert" vibe. I think it's also great that Glenn seems to have played the lead parts when they were cutting the basic tracks, and they didn't punch in a rhythm guitar underneath the solos. So his rhythm part disappears every time he plays lead. Bernie's acoustic is enough. Very sparse - and atmospheric.

    That high, echoed guitar bend in the intro (some distant howl in the desert) is a fantastic touch as well.

    The thought about Bernie playing on some of the LROOE tracks never crossed my mind, but now that I think of it, it would make perfect sense.

  6. #26
    Out on the Border BBKron's Avatar
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    Some good points made in this thread (as well as some rather silly statements - early band couldn't rock, lack of success by Bernie and Randy after Eagles somehow suggests they were lesser talents, early rockers would be better with Joe, etc).

    To me, yes, of course the original lineup is underrated, precisely because in this day and age of the band, they are not very well-known, and certainly the important and essential contributions that Bernie and Randy made to the band are not well-recognized any more. Certainly it is not surprising that most current fans of the group were not around for those early days, have not followed the group all this time, but have become fans much more recently, and so are not that aware of the changes made in the lineup since the early days (After all, aside from Felder leaving in 2001, the rest of the lineup has stayed the same for ~35 years!). They may listen to and enjoy the old, classic songs (like those on GH and done in concert) without ever knowing anything about Bernie and Randy, and that's OK.

    But make no mistake as to their importance in the group. The Eagles would never have even existed without Bernie and Randy, nor achieved the almost instant success that they did as a band, as they were essential to the sound and style of the band, and all of those great early songs. Sure, Don and Glenn could have formed some other group with other guys, but it would not have been the Eagles, and it would have been very different, at least in those early days.

    As far as I'm concerned, the original lineup ARE The Eagles, and always will be. Sure, I love Joe and Tim, and all they've brought to the group, but the original lineup is still the one I will always consider as the definitive band (even though it has been almost 40 years since Bernie LEFT the band). And as great as all of the music they've made since then is, I consider Desperado (the whole album) to be their greatest achievement, and one of the very best rock albums ever made.

    I was a fan of Joe's and Tim's, too, before they ever became part of he Eagles, and was glad to see them added. Joe was a rock star long before the Eagles, and he is still known more for his early work and solo songs (Walk Away, Funk#49, Rocky Mountain Way, Turn To Stone, Life's Been Good, etc.) than for his songs with the Eagles, and he continued his solo career and playing on other's records after joining the Eagles, too. So, I think of Joe as a premier guitarist who happens to play with the Eagles, as well as does a lot of other stuff, too. That is, he is much more than a member of the Eagles. Tim was great in Poco, and is great with the Eagles, in much the same way (my favorite Tim song is still his Poco classic, Keep On Tryin'). So, yes, great additions to the band, and they each bring their own strengths, but they still can never 'replace' Bernie and Randy and what the band was in the early days.

    Lastly, I also think there is TOO MUCH made of the classification of the original lineup as the acoustic 'country' vocal band, and the Felder-Walsh version as the 'rock' band. Sure, Bernie and Randy gave the band more of a 'country-rock' feel (not 'country' at all) and Bernie definitely added more Bluegrass influence (which also is very different from country), but they could also rock (Tryin', Chug All Night, Out of Control, Outlaw Man, James Dean, Already Gone, and Good Day in Hell were all straight-up rockers done before Felder and Walsh arrived [Felder only added at last minute to AG and GDIH - and remember it was Bernie's idea to bring in his old friend Felder to add some slide guitar] - and Out of Control is the hardest-rockin' song the Eagles have ever done). And Great multi-part harmony vocals has always been an important part of the band's sound, now just as much as then, and they still play most of the old 'country-rock' songs with the current band (except for Bernie's). It's gross oversimplification to say that the original lineup was 'country' and the later band 'rock, because it just isn't true. There are all kinds of things that change within a band as the lineup changes (and as the band grows older), most of them much more subtle and nuanced than this perceived dichotomy between country and rock.
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  7. #27
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    I definitely agree that Out Of Control is their hardest rocking song. I've always felt that way. When I mentioned the "couldn't rock", it certainly wasn't my opinion. I was thinking of some comment from Glyn Johns that was in some book. He was there. Maybe it took more takes for the original lineup to nail a rock song in the studio than a more mellow one, who knows. Plus everyone always says (including Don and Glenn) that adding Don F made them a much better rock band.

    Personally I've always felt that Out Of Control, Tryin', Chug All Night etc. rock MUCH more than something like Victim Of Love, which is said to be a harder rocker. To me it's a pop song, not a rocker - at least the chorus. Felder's intro is promising a rock song, but when it gets to the chorus, it's a pop song IMO. I love Life In The Fast Lane, but to me it doesn't rock as hard as the songs I mentioned because it sounds much more disciplined and controlled. And polished.

    On the other hand, Joe wasn't just a rocker. That's an oversimplification too. What he does on New Kid In Town (electric piano and organ), Wasted Time (organ), Pretty Maids In A Row (composing and piano) is far more than that!
    Last edited by chaim; 02-17-2015 at 04:16 PM.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    I loved your post BBKron. And thanks for pointing out that AG and GDIH existed before Felder was recruited. You posted a Nov 73 bootleg on your blog (that was you, right?) and that rocks pretty well, although after GDIH we can clearly hear someone say, "That song sucks!" If I had my time machine, I'd go back to here a concert at that time. Maybe I'd save the airfare, and catch them on Neil Young's "Tonight's the night" UK tour.

  9. #29
    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    I must disagree, but ces't la vie!

  10. #30
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    Default Re: The original lineup underrated?

    While I agree with parts of BBKron's post, especially about too much being made of the line drawn between the band's country and rock eras. It's a fuzzy line for sure, but I do think it is an accurate generalization to illustrate that the band had more country tendencies with Bernie and Randy, and leaned more towards rock with Felder and Walsh.

    However, I strongly disagree with the notion that the original Eagles ARE the Eagles and that Leadon and Meisner were irreplaceable. If either of these were true, I don't believe the band would have been able to maintain the level of success of their earlier years. Instead, they simply surpassed the previous accomplishments. Yes, they were a different band with the personnel changes, and it is understandable that some prefer one lineup over the other, but to deny that they weren't as successful is really going out on limb.

    I personally very much appreciate and love the work of both incarnations of the band. I've said many times before I believe the fact that they made this transition in their musical style is largely responsible for the legendary status and mass appeal they enjoy to this day. They have something for everyone!

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

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