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Thread: Songwriting Techniques

  1. #11
    Stuck on the Border DJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Great article. Although in reading it I too automatically could think of many songs that break those rules. A lot of country songs certainly do, which is probably why I'm a rock n roll/ country rock person. I've tried writing and I look at it and go oh how boring. But take Kenny Chesney all he writes about anymore are songs of the "beach life" boring but he's a award winning singer/songwriter. One of my favorite song writers is Joni Mitchell here lyrics always intrigued me. Especially Raised on Robbery..

    So Put Me On A Highway And Show Me A Sign
    And Take It To The Limit One More Time..............

  2. #12
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    For the record, I think a lot of songs break these rules, but IMO, the ones that do won't go down in history as great songs. They just happen to be selling now because of the artist or because there's nothing else out there to outsell it. Some are likeable and easy to sing along with, but again, history won't remember them as great.
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  3. #13
    Stuck on the Border Jonny Come Lately's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Thanks for posting the article VA. It was an interesting read and provides plenty of room for interesting further discussion.

    I'm have to give this some thought before posting in more depth but I can definitely think of some interesting examples for #1, #3 and #4. I can think of songs which work in spite of breaking one of these rules, and may even have one or two examples which work despite breaching two rules (I'd probably say though that any song breaking three or more rules isn't likely to be very good because its lyrics are likely to be a major drawback). I can also think of songs which successfully avoid breaking these rules.

    I must admit none of the bands I listen to are especially prone to #2 as they are not overly worried about being seen as trendy, at least not in that way. I'll see if I can think of anything for #5 although from my experience most of the songs that fall into this trap are bubblegum pop songs like the one by Bieber suggested in the article and the songs that do use scat singing or wordless vocals effectively tend to otherwise be instrumentals (to use examples by one of my favourite bands, Vas Dis and The Pilgrim by Wishbone Ash are two examples of this).

  4. #14
    Stuck on the Border AlreadyGone95's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Another thing comes to mind and that never ceases to amaze me is the various amounts of time it takes to write a song. Some songs can flow out of a songwriter in a matter of minutes while some take months or even years to take shape!

    Or how writing one song can inspire a songwriter to write another song!
    -Kim-


    People don't run out of dreams, People just run out of time

  5. #15
    Stuck on the Border Jonny Come Lately's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    The first Eagles song I thought of when reading the list was The Sad Café, which manages to find an effective way around rule #3. It could easily fall into the cliché of a nostalgic song yet I think it avoids it. I think the main reasons for this are that the song immediately starts with a description of the location rather than going straight into the emotional aspect of the song. The first two lyrics about rain falling and washing away the tracks on the boulevard are actually a pretty ordinary image, nothing special, but they remind the narrator of The Sad Café. It is also less sentimental than other songs of this type can be - 'no use in asking why, it just turned out that way', and he recognises that he was lucky and that other people just never got the breaks for whatever reason. It's contemplative and thoughtful rather than simply being an emotional song.

    R.E.M.'s Nightswimming is I think another song which works even though it is overtly nostalgic simply because the situations described are very specific and therefore it creates strong images. It probably comes closer to falling into the cliché trap than The Sad Café but it is still an excellent song.

    Conversely, one Eagles song that I think does break one of these rules IMO is Love Will Keep Us Alive, which breaks rule #1. Lyrics like 'I would die for you, climb the highest mountain' are just a bit too soppy for the Eagles IMO and this is why it is one of my least favourite Eagles songs. There are other bands where this would not be that noticeable, but when compared when classics like Peaceful Easy Feeling or The Best Of My Love, which both have much more realistic and recognisable characters and situations (the former is rather bittersweet beneath the contented surface, and the latter has a lethargic feel of resigned acceptance to a failing relationship).

    One interesting example I've thought of is Coldplay's Yellow, a song which IMO works even though it breaks two of these rules - specifically rules #1 and '4. Lyrics like 'I came along, I wrote a song for you, and all the things you do' are both overly sentimental and rather clichéd love song lyrics. However, the song holds together because of the use of the song's titular colour throughout its verses, which is a sort of 'anti-cliché' and this makes the other lyrics okay as the song is centred around the word 'yellow'. I can't quite describe how or why this works, but I think it does. The problem I have with trying to analyse this is that most of the lyrics don't stand up to scrutiny, but are fine when heard as long as I don't think about it too much.

    As much as I love Led Zeppelin they have a couple of songs which break rule #5, most notably D'yer Mak'er, but I would also suggest that Hots On For Nowhere overuses the non-words 'la la la'. In fairness the former was always intended to be a jo-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-ke. Black Dog has significant amounts of 'ah, ah, ah, ah'-ing but it absolutely works because these are accompanied by well written lyrics elsewhere and they add to the dynamics of the song as they are sung acapella by Robert Plant, providing contrast to Jimmy Page's louder guitar riffs and solo.

    I would say that most of the very best songs tend avoid falling into any of these traps. You can still write a great song while breaking one rule I think. Any song that breaks two rules, and any song that breaks three or more of them isn't likely to be very good (to give an illustration, this might be a song that is nostalgic in an unoriginal way, with overly sentimental and clichéd lyrics. A song written like that is probably going to come across as fairly weak).

    Country music is different from rock and pop in that it can be somewhat prone into falling into lyrical clichés but these tend to be unique to the genre (songs about trucks, beer etc.) rather than being clichéd in general. These two links describe the sort of overused lyrical themes in country music that I'm talking about.

    http://radio.com/2014/07/21/country-...s-bro-country/

    http://www.wideopencountry.com/10-co...music-cliches/

  6. #16
    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Oh, people (even country musicians!) can have a lot of fun poking holes at country cliches. David Allen Coe had a big hit with "You Never Even Called Me By My Name," wherein he deliberately made sure to mention every country & western cliche - it's pretty funny:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYIrs1Dx4Ck

    I confess, before I read an interview with JD Souther explaining how serious the subject matter of "How Long" is, I thought he was doing something similar: mashing up country cliches like "lonely as a train" and "lonesome prison, where the sun don't shine."

  7. #17
    Stuck on the Border AlreadyGone95's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by NightMistBlue View Post
    Oh, people (even country musicians!) can have a lot of fun poking holes at country cliches. David Allen Coe had a big hit with "You Never Even Called Me By My Name," wherein he deliberately made sure to mention every country & western cliche - it's pretty funny:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYIrs1Dx4Ck
    I love that song. My uncle used to sing it because I'd never call him by his name. (I'd use a nickname).

    Country music can definitely break some of those rules. Chattahoochee by Alan Jackson is one that comes to mind. It breaks the nostalgia rule, but still is a great song. (I'm biased because I live near the Chattahoochee River).

    People expect country to sound a certain way and to a have only a few different types of lyrical themes. Whereas with rock, the sky is the limit!
    -Kim-


    People don't run out of dreams, People just run out of time

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    It doesn't get much more nostalgic than "Seems like a dream now, it was so long ago..."

  9. #19
    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    It's mysterious though, right? That keeps it from being a cliche because you're trying to figure out who is who and what happened.

  10. #20
    Stuck on the Border VAisForEagleLovers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by AlreadyGone95 View Post
    I love that song. My uncle used to sing it because I'd never call him by his name. (I'd use a nickname).

    Country music can definitely break some of those rules. Chattahoochee by Alan Jackson is one that comes to mind. It breaks the nostalgia rule, but still is a great song. (I'm biased because I live near the Chattahoochee River).

    People expect country to sound a certain way and to a have only a few different types of lyrical themes. Whereas with rock, the sky is the limit!
    Chattahoochee was popular, but it won't be remembered as one of his best ones. Drive, on the other hand is nostalgic, but it will be remembered as one of his best. I guess the difference is that Drive is a story and not just drawing on nostalgic feelings to help the song along, if that makes sense. It paints a vivid picture.
    VK

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