Songwriting Techniques

[Annoying Twit]

I think it's cool! I've just started to break down some of my favorite songs like this in recent months. The most recent Eagles song I'd looked at in terms of chord progressions is Randy's "Try and Love Again." The verse just goes back and forth (in the key of D major) I, vii7 and the chorus is vii, vi, Vm, I, IV. I guess that's a bit unusual - either that, or I got something wrong

The melody and arrangement is too gorgeous.

Do you play guitar? I love the opening chords to "Take It Easy" but I don't even know what the first one is called - it's a G-something, maybe G+D.

e|-3-----------
B|-3----------
G|-0----------
D|-0-----------
A|-2-----------
E|-3-----------

I don't play anything well enough to play in real time. My musical speciality is writing computer programs that create music. (Often using systems such as Max/MSP). I think my musical theory is reasonable, as without it I can't do that.

The chord above is a slight variation of a normal G chord. It has the three notes G, B, and D. As there are three notes in the chord, and six strings, some notes get repeated. Fretting the B string gives you one more D and one less B, but it's the same chord. I would just call it "G".

Are you sure that Try and Love again uses those chords? According to: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/e/e...n_ver2_crd.htm we have D (I) and G(IV). In the second part of the verse (I think this fits the pattern in the previous link of a long verse) we have nice descending lines G F#m Em which will be IV iiim, iim, and then F#m A D, which is iiim, V (finally!) and I. It could be that the chord tab is wrong. If the "oooh gonna try and love again" is a chorus, then it uses G (V) and D(I). A common rocking back and forward used in verses a lot. And of course used at the start of the song. If this is a chorus, it re-uses the chords in the verse but has the more soaring melody and drawn out notes (plus harmonies) as in BOML. However, the verse melody here is higher than it is in BOML, so there is less contrast there in either range or tessitura (I don't know which.)

Hence, I think that's all just the standard three basic major chords and the three basic minor chords from the relative minor. Again, the melody rises to a peak at the end of the verse with the title/refrain, and the second part of the verse varies the rhythm a bit (one by one...). However, I haven't looked at the sheet music and often get things wrong when just thinking about songs.

Coming out of nerd mode, it really is a wonderful melody. It's my favourite song on HC.

[NightMistBlue]

You're absolutely right about the chords in TALA - man, did I bleep that up. I think I was looking at the wrong key.

Have you looked at "Witchy Woman"? Bernie went buck wild with the chords. This tab version is a bit more simple than the "Play Along with..." book that I have: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/e/e...n_ver3_crd.htm

[Annoying Twit]

I was concerned that I had *beeped* it up. I frequently do.

I've got to go out now, so can't look at Witchy Woman properly. At a quick glance, it's in a minor key. It's common for minor key songs to have many more chords than major key songs. I'll look more later this evening.

[Jonny Come Lately]

I've been really interested to read the last few posts, I've found it absolutely riveting! I really think we should have a thread for technical discussion about the Eagles' songs, although I'm probably one of the worst people to start it as my musical understanding is pretty limited. I like to think have picked up some stuff from people on this forum and elsewhere though, as a couple of years ago I had no real understanding whatsoever. I get the sense that compositionally most rock music is relatively straightforward, with quite a lot of songs having similar structures (IIRC on a fundamental level Already Gone is basically a Chuck Berry-esque three chord rocker). There are certainly exceptions, but these tend to be in more technical and specialised fields like progressive rock.

[OntheBorder74]

Im not that technical but I know the verse chords and chorus chord sequences are the same in Already Gone and Ol 55, but the chorus in both songs just amps it up with the harmonies, so to an unmusical sort like me you don't realise the progression hasnt changed aside from the intensity. An interesting song structure, I ve tried learning their songs and noticed a lot of similar chords keep coming up

[Annoying Twit]

Witchy Woman is quite tricky. Without having the sheet music AND going back and revising theory, I'm not going to get it right.

As well as the natural minor key, there are other minor keys such as the melodic and harmonic minors. (some explanation here: http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chor...ey-theory.html)

As an oversimplification Witchy Woman is in Gm. If it was the natural minor key, then the fifth chord would be Dmin and the fifth-chord-seventh would be Dminor7. And in the intro there's a Dmin. However, the vocal starts with a rocking back and forward between Gm and D7. The D7 would be typical of the melodic or harmonic minors as it includes the 7th note of the scale which is raised . But, later on we get a Bb chord which doesn't fit either scale, and the Fmajor that turns up even less so.

There are two possibilities here. (Three if you include the possibility that I have this utterly wrong and there is an Eagles fan with advanced music theory who has just fallen out of their chair laughing.) The major key Eagles songs I've looked at have had diatonic harmony. This means that if the scale of C major is the notes C D E F G A B C, then the chords are only made from these notes. But, other artists often use non-diatonic harmony. These are chords not made from the notes of the scale. E.g. in C major people will often use the chords Eb and Bb (major), which may give the music a bluesy sound.

Secondly, minor key music often changes the minor scale it's using. E.g. part of it may be in the natural minor, and then part of it may use another minor scale (even though both would be Gminor of a sort). This would explain the Dmin in the introduction (and in a section later with Don's wordless vocal) while there is a D7 later on. I am guessing (note word 'guessing') that the song is in Gminor, but in different Gminors for different sections. However, there are the F and Bb chords in Bernie's riff. I suspect that these chords were just played because the riff sounded good, rather than it fitting into a scale.

To have both major and minor versions of a chord in a minor key song is common. E.g. if anyone plays the following chord sequence:

Cmin / / / Gmin / / / F / / / Fmin / / / Cm / / /

then this should sound familiar, with the change from F to Fmin not sounding weird at all, even though the chords are right next to each other not in different parts of a song. Singing a simple melody over the top is easy. I suspect that this is what's happening in the song, different parts are in different G minor keys.

I've had a look at some sheet music, but the only incidental I can see is that one Eb note is raised to E. As E is the sixth note of the scale, this suggests a melodic minor, where we'd play E when going up, and Eb when coming down. To go further I'd need all of the sheet music, and spend time on it. Or have someone who knows theory better look at. (I said my theory was OK - I can usually do what I want with it - I didn't say it was excellent.)

Summary: I was overconfident, and need to revise my minor scales and chords. I'm sorry I can't answer this better.

[NightMistBlue]

Darn you, Bernie Leadon and your fiendish cleverness

The problem is that those D7 and C chords "should" be minor. The Bb, F and Gm we have no quarrel with as they're found in the Bb major scale (as I, V, vi) and its relative G minor as III, VII and i.

[Annoying Twit]

Can we talk about a different song?

Best of My Love - mainly in C major, but very temporarily goes to what may be a different key on the Fminor7 chord (maybe parallel C minor) for "I'm going back in time..."

I'm not sure many Eagles songs change key.

Or how about how "The One You Love" when played on guitar and singing sounds like a classic Eagles ballad. Slightly 80s lounge-ish production isn't, in my opinion the best for that. The use of Major 7th chords on that and the melody work very well together.

[NightMistBlue]

I think it's common for the bridge (or the "middle eight" if you're British) to be in a different key. I haven't tried playing BOML yet, but I should give it a go - it sounds easy.

I found this guy's advice on writing the bridge very helpful: http://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/...a-song-bridge/

[Annoying Twit]

It might be interesting to discuss the advice in context of Eagles songs.

E.g. "Learn to be Still" only has diatonic chords from its key of F# major.

The bridge is interesting in that the root chord doesn't appear at all. Of course, it could still be in a different key using those chords, though I doubt it.

The verses have quite a bit of rocking back and forward between the root (F#) and the IV chord (B). It does have the vim chord (D#m) which shares two notes with the root chord, but isn't the same. I'd need to see the sheet music to be sure that the bridge remains in F#.

The second part of the verse "You thought you would find happiness..." has quite a few minor chords, so it might have gone to the relative D#minor key. I'd need to see the sheet music to be sure. The first half of the verse has quite a different chord sequence from the second half - variation and interest there. Without using an expanded pallette of chords.

Your link recommends not ending the bridge on the root chord. The bridge in Learn to be Still does this, ending on C#. Additional bridge interest as the melody in the bridge is higher.

I've long wanted to be able to write good 'traditional' songs, but I've never been able to do so. My songs come out melodically too simple. I may have missed my calling writing songs for television programmes for very young children.

1, 2, then to 3,
Let's all count to 4
Look how well we've done
Don't you want to count some more?

That's probably appropriate for the type of normal songs I write. Though, I can do post-tonal computer music fine.

An important characteristic of Eagles songs is how they have verse melodies that are subtle, don't stand out, so that the refrain or chorus stands out more when it comes in with more defined rhythms, more memorable melody, long notes and harmonies.

EDIT: Lack of sheet music is limiting. There's this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eagles-Comp...agles+Complete, but it doesn't have LROOE. Not very complete.

EDIT: Can be bought separately: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eagles-Long...en+sheet+music