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Thread: Songwriting Techniques

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    I rarely think about Eagles music in terms of scales, but there are elements of harmonic G minor (D major chord), natural minor (F major chord) and G dorian (C major chord) in Witchy Woman. Or we could say that the verse uses the jazz minor scale, because it contains a majr 6th and major 7th (even when descending). But I'm sure Bernie wasn't thinking about scales.
    Bernie plays a Gm6 in the verses on the acoustic. A minor 6th is sometimes used as the final chord in minor key songs in Finnish "schlager music". I'm sure Bernie just loved the sound of the chord in that context and didn't worry about scales.

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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    I rarely think about Eagles music in terms of scales, but there are elements of harmonic G minor and G dorian in Witchy Woman. But I'm sure Bernie wasn't thinking about scales.
    Bernie plays a Gm6 in the verses on the acoustic. A minor 6th is sometimes used as the final chord in minor key songs "schlager music". I'm sure Bernie just love the sound of the chord in that context and didn't worry about scales.
    I'm sure that's what happened. Music theory attempts to show common patterns in music. However, even simple trial and error can lead to quality music as what works will be retained, and what doesn't won't be. E.g. it's quite often noted that songwriters who don't know theory still produce music that follows theory to more or less the same degree as those who do. Sometimes more so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying Twit View Post
    I'm sure that's what happened. Music theory attempts to show common patterns in music. However, even simple trial and error can lead to quality music as what works will be retained, and what doesn't won't be. E.g. it's quite often noted that songwriters who don't know theory still produce music that follows theory to more or less the same degree as those who do. Sometimes more so.
    This is VERY true. I have noticed it myself. An example: Phil Collins has said that Tony Banks often said to him "you can't do that", because Tony was thinking of music theory. Whereas Phil doesn't know about theory. Well, which one of them has followed basic music theory more in their songs - whether he knew it or not? Well, certainly not Tony Banks! Mike Rutherford has also often said that he knows nothing about theory and therefore can think of different things. But when you look at Mike's stuff, it often contains very basic harmonies, but the chords may contain some extra notes because of the tuning or open strings. But Mike thinks it's very different.

    So yes, you can still make music that fits the basics of music theory even when you know nothing about it. But you can also compose stuff that doesn't follow music theory even when you know that stuff. I hate it when people think that the only way to come up with different stuff is to know nothing. It's soooooo dumb.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Yes, I agree.

    The odd thing I see in some descriptions of music theory (not your post) is that music theory isn't a prescription of what you are allowed to do or not do. It's just a list of patterns that turn up in music. In my opinion, for traditional music, it's more of an analysis tool than a tool for creating.

    I agree that rules are an indication of what you can do outside the norm. Because just because a pattern is common that it has become part of music theory doesn't mean that you have to do the same thing, you can deliberately do something different. And if it works, it works.

    Just because someone didn't apply theory when writing a song doesn't mean that theory can't be used to analyse it. It often works quite well.

    EDIT: Changed language because it wasn't clear that I was agreeing with you.

    EDIT: I'm reminded of the time that The Beatles were so excited because they thought they had invented the sixth chord.

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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    I also smile whenever I see McCartney say that they were thrilled when they discovered Dm7 in the key of G (I Want To Hold Your Hand) - the same thing in they key of C in From Me To You. What they were doing was the common II-V movement for the IV chord. You know, if you're in the key of C, Gm7 -> C -> F is just a II,V,I movement for the I chord. It had been very common in "standards".

    One more thing about Witchy Woman. I just remembered that not only the G minor chord in the verse contains the E note. The D7 chord does as well. If we were following "strict theory", we would say that in the key of G minor the 9th in the D7 chord should be an E flat - a D7b9 chord. I think one of you talked about it earlier in this thread. But I'm pretty sure this was one of the cases where the instrument dictated what happened chordwise. If Bernie had been writing the song on piano, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have added the E note on top of those chords. But he decided to try the open E string on top and thought it sounded cool. I guess one could say that it's in the jazz minor mode (because the F sharp is an F sharp and E is an E even when the chords are descending), but IMO that would be...a bit of a stretch. It would look nice on paper, because the notes belong in that mode, but perhaps it's not what happens in terms of feel.
    Last edited by chaim; 06-03-2016 at 11:20 AM.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    I also smile whenever I see McCartney say that they were thrilled when they discovered Dm7 in the key of G (I Want To Hold Your Hand) - the same thing in they key of C in From Me To You. What they were doing was the common II-V movement for the IV chord. You know, if you're in the key of C, Gm7 -> C -> F is just a II,V,I movement for the I chord. It had been very common in "standards".
    I must admit that I just think of that one as sometimes trying the minor version of the V chord in a major key. E.g. I've just strummed C - Gm - F - C - Gm - F and it sounds good and the C still stays as 'home'/tonic.

    I don't quite understand "Gm7 -> C -> F is just a II, V, I movement for the I chord". Do you mean "for the IV chord"? If so, I view these as secondary dominants, and it is going around the circle of fifths a bit. The C -> F is a V-I cadence in F, though I'd want to study the melody more to see if there's any hint of a temporary modulation to F there.

    One more thing about Witchy Woman. I just remembered that not only the G minor chord in the verse contains the E note. The D7 chord does as well. If we were following "strict theory", we would say that in the key of G minor the 9th in the D7 chord should be an E flat - a D7b9 chord. I think one of you talked about it earlier in this thread. But I'm pretty sure this was one of the cases where the instrument dictated what happened - not scales. If Bernie had been writing the song on piano, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have added the E note on top of those chords. But he decided to try the open E string on top and thought it sounded cool.
    7th chords are frequently used even when they aren't diatonic. Again, I will sometimes try 7th chords in place of any major or minor to see how they sound.

    I don't really play guitar. But, when I do, I'm always removing or adding fingers to chords to try and get something that rings in the changes.

    Speaking of which, having looked at more Eagles songs, I think they are much better songs to study for learning songwriting (or at least the music part of it) than some other bands, e.g. The Beatles. Eagles songs often are quite straightforward major key progressions, but there'll be just one little thing that makes it different. So, there's less to analyse, and interesting strategies to re-use in new songs. E.g. the Fm7 in the bridge of BOTM. I really need to find out what the melody is doing there. Only the first page is available online, it seems, and the bridge isn't there.


    £18 to buy a kindle version of The Eagles Complete and then I have it instantly...

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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    I think the melody goes like: "I'm going (C) back (B) in time and it's a (C)" on the F minor chord, then "sweet (A) dream (G-F-E)" on C major. The F minor itself isn't diatonic (some theorists say it's "borrowed" from the relative minor, but personally I think that's silly), but unless my memory fails me the F minor is used in BOML is even more "non-diatonically". I think it's an F minor 7th.

    I agree that the G minor alone has a cool sound in the key of C - and Lennon & McCartney probably went "wow" when they found that - but what comes after makes me feel that it's very much related to the F chord. I haven't read this in a theory book - it's just what my ear tells me. I feel the Gm-C in the key of C, when it leads to F, as a secondary dominant, but the dominant is broken into a II-V instead of just V.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Thanks Chaim. The B instead of Bb suggests a non-diatonic chord rather than going to the relative minor, unless we're getting back into the harmonic/melodic minor confusion of before. I interpret this as being a bit ambiguous with the Fm7 chord. I like ambiguity. It definitely creates tension which is resolved when the C chord comes in.

    EDIT: I've just bought Eagles Complete Sheet Music on Kindle. The part of the bridge harmonised with the Fm7 chord is mostly the note C! Apart from a B on 'back'. The C harmonises easily with the chord, but the minor chord with the Ab and Eb creates the tension. I wonder what the bridge would sound like with an F major instead of the Fm7 (tries it). Comparatively normal and boring. I wonder if they originally had the F there, thought the song needed something, and changed to the Fm7. Even if they didn't, that might be a good strategy for songs that need something.

    Do you have more comments on musical aspects of Eagles songs?
    Last edited by Annoying Twit; 06-03-2016 at 12:41 PM.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying Twit View Post
    Thanks Chaim. The B instead of Bb suggests a non-diatonic chord rather than going to the relative minor, unless we're getting back into the harmonic/melodic minor confusion of before. I interpret this as being a bit ambiguous with the Fm7 chord. I like ambiguity. It definitely creates tension which is resolved when the C chord comes in.

    Do you have more comments on musical aspects of Eagles songs?
    No, but I'll gladly think of some if you mention the songs you'd like to discuss.

    I don't want you - or anyone else - to get me wrong. I don't like to analyze music too much. All the "II-V for the IV chord" s*** makes it easier to see patterns and therefore to memorize songs. Also, when you have certain patterns in your head you can play a song you've never played before rather easily without checking every single chord individually. When you're playing a Beatles song without rehearsing, you don't have to wonder where they went after the Gm chord. It's also easier to transpose songs on the spot. What counts is how I feel the music.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Songwriting Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by chaim View Post
    No, but I'll gladly think of some if you mention the songs you'd like to discuss.

    I don't want you - or anyone else - to get me wrong. I don't like to analyze music too much. All the "II-V for the IV chord" s*** makes it easier to see patterns and therefore to memorize songs. You create a "big picture" for yourself. It's also easier to transpose songs on the spot. What counts is how I feel the music.
    I've spent a lot of my life trying to write good songs. It doesn't happen for me naturally. Though, I haven't spent as long on any individual song as Jackson Browne does.

    That suggests that I have a bit of a frail grasp on the big picture of songwriting. I do believe that it's possible to learn things intellectually, but get to the point where it becomes internalised so that it can be used.

    Now that I've got oodles of Eagles sheet music, I'll be analysing more.

    BTW: I find that analysing songs often makes me appreciate them more. E.g. the bridge for BOML.

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