Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[UndertheWire]

To muddy the waters further, I want to say that the partnership wasn't just about money - it was also about having a vote in band matters. My understanding is that under the 1994 agreement, only Glenn and Don H would have voting rights.

[webvan]

Actually I don't think he got demoted in Eagles Ltd in 1994, you can't demote a partner as they found when they got sued, but apparently the trick they used was "new business entities" with the "unequal" partnerships 2/7 and 1/7. I assume these entities licensed the right to use the Eagles name from Eagles Ltd, likely for a nominal amount.

I'm not sure how the partnership agreement worked but I suppose that Felder could have vetoed some deals back in 1994 and blocked the use of the name, however in 2000 after being an effective sideman for 6 years they probably thought they were safe and that Eagles Ltd was only a shell.

What's not clear is why Azoff became DF's manager in the nineties since he explains in the book he had another one in the 70s. That clearly was a miscalculation as another manager could have served his interests better than a lawyer who would (and was) be seen as a threat by the others.

Someone was asking about other bands where members became partners after joining later, the Rolling Stones did that. First with Mick Taylor in 1969 and then Ron Wood in 1992 after Wyman left. Jagger's been derided as being a "business" guy but he certainly treats his partners better (at least financially) than Frey and Henley!

[LuvRandy]

I've read where Azoff got in Randy's face at their office when Randy came to see him and told him to get out & don't come back. Randy could've been a great client for him with some promotion.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

I've read where Azoff got in Randy's face at their office when Randy came to see him and told him to get out & don't come back. Randy could've been a great client for him with some promotion.

If he did tell Randy to leave, then at that point Randy would have been free to get another manager. I wonder why he didn't? I would have, that's for sure.

UTW, I didn't realize that about the voting rights. I thought someone said earlier in this thread or the documentary thread that it wasn't the case, that it didn't work like normal corporations where votes were based on shares, and that Irving had a vote as well (and he wasn't one of the 'sevenths'). Since it worked out that Glenn and Don made the rules, maybe it just was without it being official? If so, it seemed to me that was the way it was in the 70's, too.

[UndertheWire]

Now you have me wondering where I read about the voting rights. I thought it was in Felder's book but I can't find it there so maybe it was Eliot's book a Felder interview.

Anyone know when Glenn and Joe stopped being managed by Irving in the 80s? Did he carry on managing both Dons troughout?

[BRD]

If he did tell Randy to leave, then at that point Randy would have been free to get another manager. I wonder why he didn't? I would have, that's for sure.

UTW, I didn't realize that about the voting rights. I thought someone said earlier in this thread or the documentary thread that it wasn't the case, that it didn't work like normal corporations where votes were based on shares, and that Irving had a vote as well (and he wasn't one of the 'sevenths'). Since it worked out that Glenn and Don made the rules, maybe it just was without it being official? If so, it seemed to me that was the way it was in the 70's, too.

Randy had already recorded his first album under his manager Azoff. When he asks why it is not being promoted, he tells him to leave and not come back. So you have a recorded album with no manager to promote it. I am sure that after that he got another manager but at that point he is stuck. Azoff had his priorities and his instructions.

[UndertheWire]

It's not the manager's job to promote an album. He probably should have been chasing the record label on his client's behalf but it didn't just come down to him.

There's obviously going to be a problem when a manager works for multiple artists as he has limited time and resources and someone's going to think they're not getting a good deal. It happened with the Eagles and Geffen-Roberts. It happened with Poco and America. Azoff also branched off into other areas (MCA, movie production etc) and maybe that's why most of his clients found new management. Don Felder probably stayed with him because he wasn't doing much that required a personal manager.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Actually I don't think he got demoted in Eagles Ltd in 1994, you can't demote a partner as they found when they got sued, but apparently the trick they used was "new business entities" with the "unequal" partnerships 2/7 and 1/7. I assume these entities licensed the right to use the Eagles name from Eagles Ltd, likely for a nominal amount.

I'm not sure how the partnership agreement worked but I suppose that Felder could have vetoed some deals back in 1994 and blocked the use of the name, however in 2000 after being an effective sideman for 6 years they probably thought they were safe and that Eagles Ltd was only a shell.

What's not clear is why Azoff became DF's manager in the nineties since he explains in the book he had another one in the 70s. That clearly was a miscalculation as another manager could have served his interests better than a lawyer who would (and was) be seen as a threat by the others.

Someone was asking about other bands where members became partners after joining later, the Rolling Stones did that. First with Mick Taylor in 1969 and then Ron Wood in 1992 after Wyman left. Jagger's been derided as being a "business" guy but he certainly treats his partners better (at least financially) than Frey and Henley!

wv – I didn’t make up this part about Felder being demoted in 1994. I took it right from his book where, in talking about the 1994 resumption, he says …

"To add to my feeling of being abused, Don, Glenn, and Irving also announced that they’d struck a deal with MTV for a live performance in April, to be aired six months later. As a final insult, “The Gods” told me they’d formed new business entities that gave them a majority position in the new companies, all but muscling me out. Don and Glenn were to be getting a much larger slice of the pie, while Joe, Timothy, and I were to share the leftovers.

I took immediate issue with the deal and told Irving, “Hey, man, this wasn’t what the arrangement was with Eagles Limited. What the hell’s going on?” Irving told me not to worry and arranged a meeting in his office. Joe and Tim were summoned and left the building happy with the arrangement. Then it was my turn. I walked in to see Glenn and Don looking stone-faced. When they explained to me what they were planning, I was initially rendered speechless. When I finally found my voice, I said, “Well, wait a minute guys, that’s not what we’ve done for the last twenty-something years. We always had equal shares before. Now you want double of everything else. What’s changed?'”

The documentary pretty much backs up this story, although Glenn's version was that all the contract negotiations occurred prior to the band actually getting back together. I, obviously, do not know exactly how the partnership agreement worked either, but I never read anything in Felder’s book or elsewhere that indicates that Felder could have vetoed some deals back in 1994 and blocked the use of the Eagles name. Even if he had voting rights in 1994, which I don't think he did, wouldn't he have been out-voted by Frey and Henley (and possibly Irving)? I followed the lawsuit very closely so if something is out there that indicates otherwise, I love it if someone could point me to that.

[webvan]

Right, he got muscled out but not from Eagles Ltd, they couldn't do that. What apparently happened is that they set up new business entities where they got the lion's share. Now these entities could only sign contracts on behalf of The Eagles with some type of licensing deal with the owner of the brand, i.e Eagles Ltd. It would have been easy for a 1/3 partner of Eagles Ltd to sue saying this was "unfair" and create a lot of turmoil that could have blocked/delayed the reunion. He caved in for reasons easy to understand.

In 2001, he'd gone along with that "unfair" deal for 6 years so they felt safe he wouldn't come after them. Not very smart since he obviously had nothing to lose by doing just that (some people have said he was offered a "package" but other than the nominal value for his shares, I haven't seen confirmation of that). DF did settle so that (likely) argument would have had some weight.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

wv – Thanks a lot for clarifying your previous posts. Even though a lot of this has already been discussed at length in this thread, I realize we were coming at this discussion from two different angles. When we were talking about the events in 1994, you were referring to the situation prior to Felder signing the new contract, whereas I was referencing the situation after the ’94 contract was signed. I totally agree that Felder had much more bargaining power as an equal partner in Eagles, Ltd. before he signed the ‘94 contract. I have said several times before in this thread that if he had refused to sign the new contract at that time, I would have totally respected and understood his decision. And I also agree that he may have been in a position to create turmoil that could have impacted the resumption. To me, if he wasn’t happy, I wish he had done that for his own sake (but, as a fan, I’m selfishly glad he didn’t). However, once he decided to sign the new contract, he pretty much screwed himself out of a lot of future negotiating power. But, as you said, it is understandable why he decided to sign.

I just wish that he could have been more at peace with his decision for everyone’s sake. He acknowledges in his book that many people, including his then-wife, were advising him to let go and accept the things he couldn’t change at that point, but he let it eat away at him. As a fan, I truly wish that things would have worked out differently. But, when he was finally let go in 2001, I believe everyone knew that lawsuits were inevitable, and it is understandable that it was in Felder’s best interest to ask the court to throw out any contracts that he signed in 1994 and after and defer to original deal. We’ll never know whether this legal maneuver would have worked or not since the case never went to trial. Felder also states in his book that he anticipated a settlement all along since that had been Irving’s and Don’s modus operandi in previous legal matters. I have always maintained that it was in both parties best interest to settle out of court since there were so many grey areas that would have probably resulted in a ‘no win’ verdict for anyone other than the lawyers.