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Thread: Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

  1. #101
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    Whew,
    This one has no doubt been a hot topic here this year. Truth be known, this year’s Rolling Stone cover story AND Felder’s book sparked my reinterest in the band.
    Here’s where I agree with the theme of most posts of this topic: Felder was naïve and occasionally could be labeled a whiner. After he was canned, Schmidt’s comment that “You keep harking back to a deal you made in the 70s, that’s history, you should have just signed the papers and sent them back” is one of the bright lights in the book. From my view, if he’d taken the Walsh/Schmidt attitude of ‘go with the flow/take the bucks they give you,’ he’d be an Eagle today.
    Where I disagree: The theme of -- Felder was dead wood, he was holding them back, he’s a jerk, our beloved Glenn and Don are better off now.
    Musically, I don’t think they’re better off. I don’t care for 80 percent of the new record. The Walsh tunes are the only ones that got better to me with repeated listening. Anything that would give them more edge would be a welcome improvement. This may be largely due be a fault of the songwriting, which isn’t up to their 70s standards (blasphemy! I’m sure some posters are thinking…) and Felder’s playing wouldn’t help anyway.
    Back to Felder…No he wasn’t a fit personality-wise but only because he joined a band that was conceived as equals and he couldn’t adjust to becoming a lesser—the black figures in the “Hell Freezes Over Tour’ mock up did say a lot as to what they became in the resumption. His take that two pigs crowded the others on the trough is accurate. Both Frey and Henley leave a lot to be desired as personalities. That came through in Marc Eliot’s book too.
    I’m not being tougher on them than I would be on any major other band and their members. Through a bunch ‘o books I’ve read (including Bill Wyman’s) there is little question Mick and Keith took over the Rolling Stones and in many ways screwed their fellow bandmates. But long term, their music held up better.
    In the end, it is about the music a band leaves behind.
    Perhaps what bugs me most about the comments on Felder’s book is: Where on earth could you possibly get such an inside look of this band?!! Eliot well detailed how Henley & Azoff screwed him on pretty much the only book that tried to give a detailed, honest look at Eagles in his updated version.
    So taking this book with the grain of salt that it’s just one man’s view, it still gives tremendous insight and details of band that really doesn’t have much written about and for that alone, is a worthy effort.

  2. #102
    Administrator sodascouts's Avatar
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    JD, I can see where you're coming from. Here's where I'm coming from: when I say that Felder had become an albatross, I mean that he acted as a hindrance towards the end.

    It seems Felder and Frey never really were the best of pals, but that was overlooked because Felder's contribution to the band was so great. Still, it undeniably contributed to the dissolution of the band in 1980. I think that by 1999, the negatives once again were outweighing the positives. This time, though, the band didn't break up - they broke up with Felder.

    I don't think anyone has said that Felder wasn't a terrific guitarist. He was - and is - very talented. But it takes more than talent to make a band work.

    Whether or not Frey and Henley were in the wrong, they had reached a standstill with Felder that could only be resolved by 1) them giving Felder more of a share or 2) Felder leaving - whether it be of his own accord or no. Until that resolution occurred, the band could no longer function well. In fact, they might have ceased to function altogether.

    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

  3. #103
    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    While I have a few minutes, I’ll try to respond to your post, jwd. First of all, you may be surprised to find that I really don’t disagree with you about most of the things you stated. I also agree with Soda's post. I’ll try not to repeat much of what I have already said, but here goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwd
    After he was canned, Schmidt’s comment that “You keep harking back to a deal you made in the 70s, that’s history, you should have just signed the papers and sent them back” is one of the bright lights in the book. From my view, if he’d taken the Walsh/Schmidt attitude of ‘go with the flow/take the bucks they give you,’ he’d be an Eagle today.
    I totally agree with this statement. It has basically been the motif of most all of my criticism towards Felder. Whether he can see his mistakes or not, what is important is how he was perceived by the rest of the band.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwd
    Where I disagree: The theme of -- Felder was dead wood, he was holding them back, he’s a jerk, our beloved Glenn and Don are better off now.
    Musically, I don’t think they’re better off. I don’t care for 80 percent of the new record. The Walsh tunes are the only ones that got better to me with repeated listening. Anything that would give them more edge would be a welcome improvement. This may be largely due be a fault of the songwriting, which isn’t up to their 70s standards (blasphemy! I’m sure some posters are thinking…) and Felder’s playing wouldn’t help anyway.
    I partially disagree with you here. However, this is all subjective anyway so it would be hard to ever get consensus here. I personally think LROOE stands up very well against all of their previous work. IMO, as brilliant as Felder is, the band doesn’t lose that much musically at all with Steuart Smith. He is an incredible musician. My only complaint with the album is that there are quite a few songs that really don’t appear to be much of a collaborative effort for the band. This is beared out by the fact that the credit information is very scarce about the album, IMO, I’d bet good money that some of the songs don’t even have all four current Eagles playing or singing on them. However, you are right, I’m going to say that I don’t think Felder’s presence would have made any difference here.

    Where I will say I miss Felder’s presence is more in the live shows. I think Felder was a very good entertainer. He brought an energy to the live shows that is missing now with Steuart. Now, in fairness to Steuart, he probably stays more in the background since he is not an ‘official’ Eagle. But it was always such fun to watch the interaction between Joe and Felder on stage. I think the live shows suffer for this, but certainly not enough to keep me away.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwd
    Both Frey and Henley leave a lot to be desired as personalities.
    Reading back through this thread, I don’t remember anyone claiming that Felder was 100% at fault or that Henley and Frey were angels. Rather than repeat what I’ve already said, I’ll just copy and paste my comments from an earlier post:

    “Now – I am not silly enough to believe that the book was going to be totally objective – after all, it is Felder’s version of what happened. I also acknowledge that I am biased, but I like to think that it’s not at the expense of losing total objectivity. I certainly don’t put Glenn and Don on a pedestal, but I really was surprised at the degree of Felder’s unapologetic, slanted version of events. These guys were young, good-looking, rich, famous, talented, high on controlled substances, and immature. Of course, all of them contributed to the discourse within the band. And since Glenn and Don had emerged as the leaders of the band, it makes sense that the spotlight was on them more. I just think Felder would have come across as more credible if he had also acknowledged some of this. Instead, he comes across as a whiny, self-indulgent, ungrateful, immature millionaire rock star who thinks he’s been victimized. And quite frankly, I think that is what a lot of us find a little hard to swallow about his book.”

    I will also say that none of us really knows these guys, so we can only judge by the snipets of information that we hear or read in interviews and books. I have heard/read both Henley and Frey say more than once that they made lots of mistakes along the way. Frey frequently refers to his “checkered past” and Henley often talks about how “young and foolish” they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwd
    Perhaps what bugs me most about the comments on Felder’s book is: Where on earth could you possibly get such an inside look of this band?!!
    This is probably the one statement where I disagree with you the most. I do think the book was well written and it was an interesting read (although I admit I’m pretty easy when the subject matter is this band). I actually did enjoy reading and learning more about his personal family life. However, as a fan from the beginning, I was very disappointed in that there was very little information about the band in the book that I didn’t already know. IMO, all Felder did was spin his version of facts and events that we already knew about. I was really hoping that he would really give us more objective details and insight about the inner workings of the band, particularly after the HFO resumption.

    I have to admit it amazes me to read fans say that this book totally changed their opinions about the band or that they are no longer fans after reading this book. I have to just scratch my head and wonder what they learned in the book that made them see the band so differently than they did before.

    Sorry this turned out to be a lot longer than I intended.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooke
    Quote Originally Posted by SodaScouts
    Another interview with Felder:

    "Guitarist Reveals Life as an Eagle Didn't Always Soar"


    He hopes that Heaven and Hell might also be educational.

    "There were a lot of learning experiences," he says. "If there's anybody that has had that American dream of wanting to live that life of a rock star, I wanted them to know that there are some pitfalls along the way.

    "I wanted to leave some sign posts there for younger readers, some cautionary warnings about what not to do."

    - Jim Abbott

    Educational?

    Ok, do you think that book will be added to the curriculum anytime soon?

    Younger (?) readers will certainly be reading it! I know I'd like to have my tween reading it!

    This is actually funny beyond words!
    I agree somehow I don't see me reading it in AP English this year
    Any kind of love without passion
    That ain't no kind of lovin' at all

  5. #105
    Stuck on the Border Mrs Henley's Avatar
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    I don't see people this reading for English next year.
    Anyway, it wouldn't be my first choice.
    Let somebody love you, before it's too late..


  6. #106
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    Good Job IABAD...

    When a have a few moments, I'll give my take on those thoughts.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ive always been a dreamer
    I personally think LROOE stands up very well against all of their previous work. My only complaint with the album is that there are quite a few songs that really don’t appear to be much of a collaborative effort for the band. This is beared out by the fact that the credit information is very scarce about the album, IMO, I’d bet good money that some of the songs don’t even have all four current Eagles playing or singing on them. However, you are right, I’m going to say that I don’t think Felder’s presence would have made any difference here.

    Where I will say I miss Felder’s presence is more in the live shows. I think the live shows suffer for this, but certainly not enough to keep me away.
    Here I cannot comment.....except to say the ticket price is what keeps me away. They've outpriced a lot of people like myself who are not cheapskates but to us...that kind of money is just not worth the entertainment value provided.

    And your comments on LROOE not being a 'collaborative effort' are dead on. Felder details the troubles of Henley and Frey wanting to work on new songs in separate studios....separately...in the band's aborted late 90s sessions. Sadly, while it kept them from each other's throats, the music really does suffer. The Beatles' White Album may have great songs but as their engineer Geoff Emerick wrote in his book last year...those separate working conditions were the beginning of the end for that band.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ive always been a dreamer
    I just think Felder would have come across as more credible if he had also acknowledged some of this. Instead, he comes across as a whiny, self-indulgent, ungrateful, immature millionaire rock star who thinks he’s been victimized.
    I disagree. I think to Felder, admitting he slept around was a revelation he'd rather not go into. To him, that was a real fault. He could write about it a bit more honestly perhaps. To me, he is a bit whiny but not nearly what you suggest. I think if he'd had a small amount of gripes with Henley and Frey, it would be simple bitching. But he had a laundry list, some of which small, some substantial but the volume does count for something in this case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ive always been a dreamer
    I actually did enjoy reading and learning more about his personal family life. However, as a fan from the beginning, I was very disappointed in that there was very little information about the band in the book that I didn’t already know. IMO, all Felder did was spin his version of facts and events that we already knew about. I was really hoping that he would really give us more objective details and insight about the inner workings of the band, particularly after the HFO resumption. I have to admit it amazes me to read fans say that this book totally changed their opinions about the band or that they are no longer fans after reading this book. I have to just scratch my head and wonder what they learned in the book that made them see the band so differently than they did before.
    Letsee...to me, he gives considerable details of the recording sesions for every album he was on...much of which are not public knowledge, the tours, including the between hours from show to show. THAT's the stuff I want to know. This guy was there for all of it. It's not realistic to think that there would be an 'unbiased' version of those kind of details. I would prefer an 'autobiography' from ALL members, similar to what Aerosmith did a few years back but these guys are way too tightlipped for that. So Felder's account is all we've got. I WANT to know what songs were bright lights in their infancy, how things were put together, etc. I appreciate the book for that.


  8. #108
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    First of all, I apologize for taking so long to respond to your post, jwd. I was going to post something this past week, “but the world got in my way”. I guess we may have to just agree to disagree about some of this. But, at the risk of repeating myself, I’ll try to give a few examples that I haven’t already mentioned.

    I agree that Felder admits to some things that he regrets in his book. However, there is a difference between admitting that you did something and taking personal responsibility for it. Where I have a problem is that he generally tends to blame other people or other circumstances for his indiscretions by always offering an excuse for why he did what he did. I also acknowledge that he may have had a laundry list of issues with Henley and Frey. But, I keep having to scratch my head and wonder, why did he stay? I remember as I was reading his account of his life after the band broke up - he claims that he didn’t do much music (outside of Airborne, which he may have been contractually obligated to do) because he wanted to stay at home and mend his family life. However, he goes on to recount later that his son Cody, who was born in the early 80’s, blamed him for not spending enough time with him when he was growing up - just seems like a contradiction to me. In addition, he also says later in the book that he had always told Irvin that anytime the Eagles were ready to get back together to count him in. Again – seems like a contradiction in terms for someone whose top priority was his family. It seems to me that he didn’t work or join any other band in the 80’s because his ego wouldn’t let him just be in any old band – he wanted to be in THE TOP BAND or none at all. Then, when he finally got his wish and the band resumed in the 90’s, you would have thought he would have been ecstatic. But instead, he goes on for pages and pages in the book ranting and whining about his laundry list of complaints. I just see a pattern of whining here that goes back to when he first joined the band, and continues to this day. Even if his complaints are legitimate, IMO, it still comes across as him perceiving himself as the poor, helpless victim of the “Gods”. Now, I will also say that I admire people who stand up for what they believe in. However, wise people also must recognize when they are fighting a losing battle. There comes a time when it is best to heed the advice of the Serenity Prayer and just accept the things that you can’t change or either let go for good.

    I agree that I appreciate the parts of the book where he gives detailed accounts about how things happened. However, my complaint is that there is far too little of this. If he had done more of this, and less whining and complaining, I would have enjoyed the book a lot more and found it much more credible. As I said earlier, I think that he didn’t give equal time to the “heaven” part of being in the band. Felder complains endlessly about the money-hungry, power-hungry “Gods” – but, I just don’t see him as being much different from them at all. The real difference was that he wasn’t really ever on their same level, and his ego couldn’t handle it. To me, this is hypocritical and hypocrisy is something that I do NOT admire.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
    Glenn Frey 11/06/1948 - 01/18/2016

  9. #109
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    Always in our hearts, Never forgotten

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Felder article
    Interviewer: Your book doesn’t have a lot of peaceful, easy feelings in it. You paint Henley and Frey as vindictive guys who ruled the Eagles with iron fists. Are you worried your portrait of the band will taint the music’s legacy?

    DF: Well, that’s sort of what happened to the music. The bickering and arguments tainted it. All of it just crushed the whole creative thing we had going on so I wanted to be honest and not pull punches in the book. To paint it in a sweeter light, it’s just not the right thing to do.
    PULEEEEZE!


    Quote Originally Posted by Don Felder article
    Interviewer: But you’re not bitter?

    DF: The only person bitterness hurts is the person carrying it around. I can’t forget I was given the American Dream.
    HARUMPH!!!!! Do you believe this guy?!
    https://i.imgur.com/CuSdAQM.jpg
    "They will never forget you 'till somebody new comes along"
    1948-2016 Gone but not forgotten

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