Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread

[luvthelighthouse]

Don's subsequent turn in the 'exit' seat finds him disappointed in Joe and Timmy even though they did nothing different than Don had done earlier.

Don has a long history of leaving and not keeping up and staying in touch except when it is to his benefit. His parents, brother, wife etc etc... he had a life of the luxury of always being the one who leaves. The one time he gets left... we end up with a book.

He is kind of the poster child for the me generation. The them is repeated time and again in the book (unwittingly?)

These are great points! I loved your post!

Mike, what I took away from your earlier post was that Henley and Frey complement each other. Alone they are good, but together, they are great. That is what I was agreeing with. Their talents married are a thing of beauty!

[Ive always been a dreamer]

First of all, Mike - I got what you were saying in your post as well, and don't worry about offending. I think that most of us around here are pretty open-minded and thick-skinned.

As far as who had the most lead vocals that were hits, I think Dreamer did a list of that one time - am I right, Dreamer?

Only partially, Soda. Actually, I was hoping to get a list together of what place all of the band's hits charted on Billboard, but haven't gotten around to doing it.

I do have a few facts - The band had five #1 Billboard singles in the '70's. Three have Henley as lead vocalist (Best of My Love, One of These Nights, and Hotel California) and two with Frey (New Kid In Town and Heartache Tonight).

The 2 greatest hits albums probably contain the most popular Eagles songs, and by extension is fairly reflective of the hits that charted, although not entirely. As I mentioned, I don't yet have the chart position for the songs, but the breakdown for the two albums is 7 Frey lead vocals, 9 Henley lead vocals, 1 Frey/Henley shared vocal, 1 Meisner lead vocal, 1 Schmit lead vocal, and 1 ensemble.

As far as the 6 Grammy’s that the band has won, the breakdown is 3 Frey lead vocals (Lyin' Eyes, New Kid In Town, Heartache Tonight), 1 Henley lead vocal (Hotel California), 1 Frey/Henley shared vocal (How Long), and 1 instrumental penned solely by Frey (I Dreamed There Was No War).

So there is hardly any evidence to suggest that either dominated the most popular Eagles songs. Even though Henley has a slight edge, Great Hits 1, which is by far their best-selling album, is dominated by Frey vocals. I think it's safe to say that Frey dominated in the early part of the '70's and Henley the latter part.

[Freypower]

They would say what makes Henley's voice so special is because most all of his songs are so uniquely and unmistakenly Henley and that they can listen to him for hours on end. So to me, who is the better singer all comes down to personal preference, plain and simple.

Agreed.

I'll probably get into deeper water here without intending to. Seems like I did that with the other post without intending to offend anyone. I've always thought it sort of ironic that Don Henley had a bent more toward "country" than did Glenn but that Don's voice seemed to me more suited to Rock...you know...sort of gravely without losing any of that range. Glenn on the other hand, seemed to me to have more of a Rock/Detroit background and trend but had a voice more suited to country. Again, that is just observation and thusly, opinion.

I can't help my bias toward Don when it comes to vocals. I do think he has a voice that is amazing. Neither can I change the bias toward Glenn when it comes to arranging music. Do ALL I think Glenn was is a smart business man? HELL NO. But he did have a way of "arranging" the business end of the Eagles in the early years and I'm quite sure throughout the history of the Eagles than did anyone else, especially before Azoff....and if the truth could be known, I expect that Glenn is very much still in control of the business end of the Eagles.

At any rate, the intent was to point out that Glenn and Don together really were the heart and soul of the musical success of the Eagles. Their abilities equally complimented the twosome's success in songwriting, arranging and performing. I was NOT trying to say that one of them was better than the other.

Agreed. Mike, you didn't offend me and I am sorry if it came across that way. I love reading your posts and wish I could be as objective as you are.

[AmarilloByMorning]

In general… I’m not entirely convinced Frey and Henley couldn’t have succeeded as a duo, supplemented by studio musicians. Despite my affinity for Schmidt and Walsh, Frey and Henley have either replaced or simply lobbed off every other band member without discernible ramifications. Duos really just “weren’t done” at the time of their initiation outside Simon & Garfunkel, and I don’t think Geffen knew how to market anything that would potentially deviate from the standard bleeding-heart solo composer or swingin’ conglomerate. Frey was told to build a band and did so; he and Henley have almost unparalleled synergy (*cough*and rivalry*cough*) that overpowers just about every other component of their band. And imagine “Hotel California” without the lyrics, which could stand alone as a poem – it would be another album track that Almost Hit, a beautiful melody meandering to nowhere. Add Henley/Frey and voila – synergy, and a hit. I do wish they would interact more onstage and indulge the Walsh wackiness or the Schmidt congeniality to a greater extent, but they seem to be doing all right...

Now, I've stated this before. Felder should have named the book Poor Poor Millionaire Rockstar Victim.

My sentiments, precisely! A particular favorite: chafing at Henley’s proffered lead guitarist position on his solo tour. How dare Henley offer him a salary comparable to that of “any other” lead guitarist, particularly considering their history of bad blood! All apologies, supposedly-battered rich guy - he could have left you to putter around your beautiful house and gripe at your wife. That round goes to Henley. Ding!

Re: the change in the order of names - that does sound petty and inappropriate considering the order was different on the album (assuming it was done at Frey and Henley's behest, which we don't know).

This seems mountain/molehill-esque, in light of both Henley and Frey’s vehement criticism of how little control they had over their album booklets over the years.

Regarding your comments on Frey's vocals, in my opinion Frey IS the 'vocal prodigy' that Henley is. Just because his singing is smoother doesn't lessen his ability.

With people falling all over themselves to praise Henley’s vocal prowess (Frey included) I always feel like the blue crayon in a pile of red ones. I much prefer Frey’s “smoother” voice – even as a Henley fan, I’m constantly thwarting the urge to clear my throat on his behalf and, regardless of Rolling Stone’s 100 Best list, have never considered him exemplary, simply excellent. Purely personal preference, but I think a lot of people simply respond to Henley’s innate emotive abilities, which receive continual display thanks to the material he composes/elects to sing. Frey certainly shines on tracks like “Tequila Sunrise” and “Heartache Tonight.” I’m not attempting to degrade Henley – I have purchased his solo material and enjoy his work. It simply galls me that Frey’s considered somehow inferior.

Felder’s book achieved the impossible for this fan, whose general opinion of the band had disintegrated to a few kernels beneath the dual onslaught of Hotel California and To the Limit: I closed the cover holding both Frey and Henley in considerably elevated esteem. I suspect neither of them has clean hands; but nobody in the music industry does, really. That’s why they’re still around in a business that eats tender hearts alive.

P.S. - For the record, soda - I managed to wait nine hours...

[Maleah]

LOL! I would THWACK you if you cleared his throat! I LOOOOVE the raspy/gritty sound in Don's voice. Ab-so-lute-ly LOVE it!

That being said, while Henley obviously is my preference vocally, Frey has a great voice as well. What I love about Glenn's voice is the peaceful, relaxing, calming effect of it. I love to listen to things like "Peaceful Easy Feeling" in the morning as I'm driving to work. Then again....I listen to "Life In The Fast Lane" when I get off of work. ha

I do agree with the point made about Don's voice seeming more fitted for a rock sound and Glenn's for the country side. That was my first impression upon hearing both of their voices the first time.

*ETA: Not that the you clearing his throat part makes sense.....but you know what I mean

[bernie's bender]

The assumption sometimes is that people and situations are static. In the beginning GF was the clear leader/cheerleader of the band and attracted the others via the 'one for all, all for one' kinda D'Artagnon approach. It was even how Felder was attracted to the band...

but, since the only constant is change... it stands to reason that Don H. really grew in his confidence and his growth 'arc' and his interests continued to expand while GF played the singular role of the initial motivation of the band and really knew how to use BL and RM with their musical interests to 'flesh out' the sound.

In the early years, I think they absolutely needed to be a band. (much like Steely Dan initially needed a full band as they grew into their potential)... As the band grew and the visions came clearer, the leadership of the band shifted and folks were marginalized. This is a common story and nothing that anyone should feel bad about...

There was a great band that Clive Davis put together with John Batdorf, Greg Collier, Handsome Harry Stinson, Tommy Leadon (Bernie's bro) and Brent Mydland in the mid 70's.... Given one member who really could have played the Glenn role... that could have been a band that would have been astoundingly good...

You can kind of map artists with an arc and you can kind of see how circumstances and personal growth play such a huge role in how things turn out.... Vince Gill is a great example of how he came to LA as a kid, got the right influences on guitar (Larry Carlton and Albert Lee) aped them well enough to get the gig (along with his super beautiful high high voice) with Pure Prairie League and use that as an intermediary step to what became his future as a solo star....

At the beginning, Meisner and Leadon were the musical forces in the band... with GF and DH the developing songwriters and singers... without that catalyzing agent... I don't think things would have been the same.

[sodascouts]

I think all of the posts in this thread have been really interesting. Good discussion.

I closed the cover holding both Frey and Henley in considerably elevated esteem.

I found this statement intriguing. Why?

P.S. - For the record, soda - I managed to wait nine hours...

You're more disciplined than I am. I usually hit "reply" as soon as I read a post!

[AmarilloByMorning]

I found this statement intriguing. Why?

It does seem to fly directly in the face of generally-accepted canon. But for some reason, ingesting a continual diet of PR, accented by a book (To the Limit) of questionable impartiality given the involvement and implied legal wrangling on Henley’s part, culminated in my perceiving them as demi-gods. They seemed somehow removed from the rest of us – probably precisely their intent.

But having Felder’s some- warts-included take on the situation made them identifiable as actual, potentially-coexisting humans. Following Felder’s life as he attempted to negotiate the dissonant worlds of family and star had the unexpected side effect of forcing me to accept his former band members as everyday people who had, through a confluence of talent, synergy and sheer, dumb chance, wandered into a house of mirrors for which they probably had no preparation. For example, Henley buying twenty silk kimonos or something in Japan - he was clearly attempting to procure something that could not be acquired with the exchange of currency, and fame had probably conclusively thwarted his attempts to happen upon it naturally. Or, Frey’s much-maligned tendency to select nicknames that exploit respective insecurities. While I don’t agree with Felder’s suggestion of Prozac, clearly the guy either “has issues” or never had the opportunity to grow up, having wandered in his mid-twenties into a fishbowl of fame not particularly renowned for its ability to further psychological peace and development.

The book also made Henley and Frey’s continual, childish attempts at undermining and/or one-upping each other almost rational. Was their behavior prima facie absurd, particularly when Felder mixed tracks at Henley and Frey’s respective studios with identical results? Certainly. Did I wholeheartedly concur with Felder and Walsh’s exasperation and desire to leap aboard cushy chairs in the studios, just to see whether Henley would spontaneously combust? Most definitely. However... the book inadvertently made clear that, if either Frey or Henley backed down, the other would not follow suit to keep the peace or maintain some semblance of familial comfort, instead gathering speed to not only feather a dominion but also enact suffering for prior transgressions, perceived or actual. Neither of them had anything to gain by backing down from the power struggle, and really no choice but to either fight or fold completely; clearly, they both cared enough to stay in the game, so folding was not an option. They had both backed themselves into an almost incorrigible situation that two women might have solved with a heart-to-heart but two men assiduously refused to or found themselves unable to acknowledge even existed.

Finally... “In between takes, Don had become a prolific letter-writer. In one he composed to the studio maid, he insisted that the floral toilet paper be put on the roll the other way around so it rolled off the top, pointing out that if it was meant to come off the bottom, the little pink flowers would have been printed on the undersides of the sheets. Where you would see them.”

I mean, come on. I cannot be the only one who finds this indubitably hilarious. And, whether you agree with his actual expression of the opinion or not, the guy does have a point.

[AmarilloByMorning]

LOL! I would THWACK you if you cleared his throat!

You and a minion of Eaglephiles! I can absolutely envision hordes of people chasing me down the street with burning pitchforks, eager to terminate me.

[sodascouts]

I'd certainly never thought of it that way, ABM. Interesting perspective.

In other news, Felder's birthday is coming up and as I always do, I was preparing some treats for it. One of these was a British interview from 2008. The interviewer was a bit confused and thought Felder had left voluntarily. "Was it a survival move for you to leave? Any regrets about not staying in the band?" You can almost see Felder trying to figure out a way to answer that which doesn't include the sentence "Actually, I got fired." He says something like "Well, it was like a bad relationship you know should end but you keep it going for the sake of the kids - the 'kids' were our music - but looking back now, I'm glad I decided to get myself out."

Um, that was creative! lol