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Thread: The Kennedy Assassinations

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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default The Kennedy Assassinations

    This was spawned off of Delilah's thread about Bob Dylan's new song, Murder Most Foul, which discusses the assassinations of JFK and RFK.

    I'll kick it off with a quote by NightMistBlue, and my response to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NightMistBlue View Post
    Id be open to a thread about it. Austin, Id be interested to hear what the possible motive would be to assassinate the Kennedys?
    Here's my response, to kick things off and then I'll make another large post about the basics of my theories and the how/why, etc to kick off what I hope will be a fun lighthearted debate, seeing as this is quite literally old news. I'm not so passionate as to think my theory is worth fighting for, but I approach it with sheer curiosity and knowing that my theory may well be incorrect. I do believe there is a conspiracy here.

    Quote Originally Posted by WalshFan88 View Post
    Sure! I'll post it in "Wonders At The Powers That Be"...

    Just to give a brief overview - I think he had peed in the cheerios of the intelligence community. Not invading Cuba, no support during the failed Bay Of Pigs op, his policies and thoughts on things like that made him an enemy. Then there's the whole LBJ losing his VP slot in the upcoming reelection. It's all a part of it, but I truly do believe a lot of it had to do with his relationship or lack thereof with agencies like the CIA.

    I'll quote this in the new thread.
    -Austin-
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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    I welcome anyone to share links or videos on YouTube, as I likely will be doing so.

    I think that JFK's assassination was a huge mystery and still is. I don't accept the Warren report with open arms, and I highly recommend anyone reading the HCSA report as well as the ARRB report as I find they are more open to the idea that it wasn't as was laid out in 1963. And of course, for pure historical reasons, do read the Warren commission's report. If for no other reason than to see what was said in 1964.

    So, to clarify for those unaware (probably not many of you!). The Warren report basically concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone assassin and killed JFK from the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository in Dealey Plaza in Dallas, with a shot coming from behind. Oswald was a Marxist and had defected to the Soviet Union. Many ideas came about that he was hired by a foreign country or agency. But that in a nutshell is the conclusion put forth by the Warren commission. This is the report presented to Lyndon Johnson, who had became POTUS after JFK's death. He was sworn in on Air Force One carrying JFK's body.

    The HCSA was more open minded, and perhaps less biased. They concluded that it was likely due to a conspiracy, but based on what they had, couldn't claim it was a coup de tat involving the CIA or FBI or any particular foreign government body. They believed Oswald wasn't a lone assassin. They believed based on acoustical analysis that two gunmen were likely to have fired at Kennedy. However they believe that the shooter on the grassy knoll missed JFK and it was Oswald's bullet that hit and killed JFK. They believe Oswald fired 3 shots, 2 of which hit Kennedy. The believe the grassy knoll shooter fired once and missed.

    The ARRB at least partially concluded a likely coup involving the CIA/FBI and the intelligence community. They at least partially supported what was put forth on the movie JFK. They believe there was a conspiracy.

    The conspiracy theories and just plain theories on who ordered it done (USA intelligence, a foreign national, etc), was it a lone assassin, was it from the grassy knoll/was there a grassy knoll gunman, was there multiple shots fired from both locations, etc. Those are all explorable ideas that don't seem all that far fetched to me. It's all possible and I think we truly will never know who did what in Dealey Plaza and exactly who was there and why they were there. I do believe that one could lose themselves in trying to recreate what happened when JFK's motorcade drove through the plaza, and never focus on the other evidence.

    To me, what happened in Dealey Plaza is a mystery and will always be. It's what happened after JFK's death that really turns my stomach and makes me start wondering. Douglas Horne, a member of the ARRB, said in order to really make anything out of this - you have to get your mind out of Dealey Plaza. You have to put that to the side, and focus on all the other details. What was happening in the country, Kennedy's relationships with the CIA and FBI, JFK's unwillingness to invade Cuba or support the Bay Of Pigs invasion that failed and how JFK wouldn't send help, how the autopsy and body transfer was handled after his corpse left Parkland Hospital, and how the Zapruder film was handled after it was turned over to the US government, etc. All of those things are far more easily digested and there is far more evidence on.

    My personal beliefs:

    I do believe JFK was assassinated or attempted to be assassinated by more than one gunman in Dealey Plaza. I have no hard beliefs on who it was or where the fatal shot came from. I believe that there was US intelligence involvement, likely both CIA and FBI. I also believe that LBJ was somehow involved directly or was informed as to what would take place, and that Lyndon Johnson did not like Jack Kennedy, and there was a strong chance for him to be taken off of the ticket for reelection. I think he at the very least, was guilty by association and the fact that he complied with the coverup. I believe JFK seriously offended the intelligence community on numerous occasions, be it over the Cuba invasion, or his policies and thoughts regarding the Cold War. I truly believe that he was not well liked by those agencies. I also believe that when he declined to offer more support for the men on the ground during BOP, he made himself out to be an enemy, especially of the US operatives working in Cuba at the time. Despite being generally well liked by the American public, he was not well liked by Washington, at least by the intelligence community and the US military. I think the intelligence community knew that he would by all accounts be reelected in 1964.

    I'm not going to necessarily share names of who I think is directly responsible, (with the exception of LBJ and his complacence, at the very least). I will share names I feel are involved in this story without directly placing blame or guilt, because I do strongly feel it was more than just a couple people that plotted this, and more than just a couple of people who carried it out. I think at the very least there was a group of people in either the military, intelligence sector, or the administration itself that conspired this and made sure it was done and then worked like madmen to cover it up and ensure it would forever be a mystery.

    I do believe that JFK's autopsy wasn't as it would seem based on what the US govt at the time wanted you to think. I do believe in the theory concerning an empty casket on AF1, the transportation of the body for clandestine surgery to alter the wounds in JFK's skull. I also believe that when the body was taken from Parkland at gunpoint, that should tell you something as the hospital's medical examiner was in violation for letting the Secret Service move his body. He was then, in theory, taken to Bethesda Hospital for the autopsy. As far as whether or not the supposed reconstruction coverup was performed at Bethesda, or was first taken to the Walter Reed Hospital in DC, and then taken to Bethesda on a separate plane is up for debate. I do believe that JFK's body was NOT on AF1 when LBJ was sworn in, despite what you would think. The fact that there was a long stretch of time, and the fact there was two hearses, one sitting out front of the naval hospital in Bethesda for so long, and then a plain shipping casket vs the bronze casket on AF1. The fact that for a period before the autopsy, no one except a couple SS agents were allowed in the morgue with the medical examiners, and then the fact some have stated that they saw the body before it went into the hospital that it did not look the same when they were finally allowed in the autopsy suite when he was on the table certainly would make anyone suspicious IMO. There was too much time with the body.

    I do believe that the Zapruder film was altered by the US government to change the trajectory of the fatal bullet. This was supposedly done at KODAK and the NPIC. Supposedly there were two versions of the film. The original showing the actual bullet entrance and the actual shooting, and a doctored version that was to be seen by the American people and that we know as the real Zapruder film today that you can see on YouTube. I think that it was going to be paramount that the real film didn't get out to the press as it would have been clear that the government's claims and reports would not have been valid and would have torn major holes in the biased reports to come, such as the Warren report, etc. I think that the film plays a critical role in showing that there was a clear need on the part of the US government and intelligence to make things look vastly different than what really happened in Dallas. Whether or not they were covering up their own mess, or they were trying to hide the fact there was a conspiracy by another country is irrelevant.

    In recent times, there has been a FBI memo that has been declassified in part, with director J. Edgar Hoover stating that "The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin". Katzenbach was the attorney general. Unfortunately, context is hard to determine as parts of this very document are still classified by the US government today, likely trying to put off having to admit that our government officials in 1963 weren't as innocent and clean as they were made out to be. I can only hope that the rest of this memorandum will be declassified in my lifetime, and I hope that the US government will either come clean, or at least uncover the real information on what happened in 1963 in Dallas. The current POTUS (Trump) is putting off the rest of the declassification as he feels it would be a risk to the US government to do so. That should tell you a lot right there. Again, I think one can only guess who is the mastermind of all this.

    In conclusion, I tend to try to leave Dealey Plaza and focus on the coverup. The autopsy, the Zapruder film, the partially declassified documents, etc. Of course I still sit and wonder and research more on who was in Dallas and why Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald, and watch the Zapruder film for the 100th time. But I think you have to leave Dallas in your mind at some point, and focus on the incriminating evidence and the first hand accounts of the massive coverup, whether or not the US govt was covering up something of their own doing, or the fact they wanted to shield the American public from something else - it's shocking.

    And I'm open to all theories and opinions and any links to videos or documents or other recreations and accounts from those who were around in Dallas or associated with the supposed coverup. And if you believe the Warren commission and think the US was not involved - hey that's fine! Again, I'm not looking for a fight but rather I find this fascinating and shocking and am interested in all the dirty details. I would be curious to know that if you think the US wasn't involved - was Oswald just a maligned individual, was there foreign interference, was there mob involvement, the KGB, etc. I think it will always be unsolved. There is too much for the government to risk the stability and trust of the government to come clean and admit that it was in fact an inside job or at least a coup de tat. I think that complete declassification of all related documents will be put off indefinitely. They might put more out over time, but we will never know the full story. That would mean that the government has to be ok with the fact that the trust would be affected, and that the American people would have a hard time with their picture of our own leaders and how they should be. Maybe it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.
    Last edited by WalshFan88; 03-29-2020 at 06:09 AM.
    -Austin-
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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    I will be posting more later on my thoughts on Robert Kennedy's assassination but I'll give a brief summary as to my beliefs on it.

    I believe RFK was just an extension of JFK's policies and ideations. And I think the intelligence community figures that hated JFK also hated RFK for the same reasons in 1968 and I think, again by all accounts, he would have been elected. The American people seemed to like him for all the same reasons they liked Jack Kennedy. But people in our government did not like it one bit. They were not going to accept another JFK type during their service, a JFK 2.0 so to speak. They knew that he wouldn't be bending over backwards to please them just like Jack didn't. They weren't going to push him around. The operatives in the CIA that were suspect in involvement regarding JFK's murder were still working for the CIA in 1968. They still were all in office, for the most part, or still an operative for the CIA. They didn't like the way it was looking on the polls and were seriously concerned about another Kennedy with the same policies being commander-in-chief again.

    One of the suspects that was a CIA operative in Cuba during the failed Bay Of Pigs, supposedly saw out both assassinations and was in both Dallas and LA when they took place, as a witness to both executions and was one of the main men behind it despite not being the shooter. I won't say his name directly, but it's probably something that would come up in a quick Google search (he was a Mexican operative working for the CIA in Cuba). Again, I don't necessarily believe it was just one or two men, so I won't point fingers to a specific individual, just the entity they worked for. I do believe that it shouldn't be any surprise that if you believed they'd do it once, they would do it again without question! I believe it.

    Sirhan Sirhan, I believe, just like Lee Harvey Oswald, was simply a cog in the wheel of the CIA and was a patsy. The whole bit about him hating RFK because of RFK's viewpoint on Israel was a convenient yet well executed false motive. This was just an easy out for people in America to believe yet again what their government leaders are telling them. I don't doubt that he shot and killed RFK. I think that a lone gunman theory is pretty well supported here and hard to refute. And I think because of so many witnesses that saw Sirhan shoot RFK in the hotel, there was far less work for the US govt to do as far as any kind of elaborate coverup. I do believe that he was working for the US government if not a CIA operative or an ally of the intelligence sector. But because there was less moving parts and pieces, it was going to be a pretty clean operation for whoever ordered it. I think it was going to be considerably easier than what had to be done to cover up JFK's assassination.
    Last edited by WalshFan88; 03-29-2020 at 06:23 AM.

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    Moderator Brooke's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    This is all very interesting, Austin. You've definitely done some research!

    I know nothing other than the basics from the Warren report and the question about a possible conspiracy theory. I will follow though! Carry on!
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    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    My Dad was an F.B.I. agent with the West Palm Beach bureau office in the 1960s. The Kennedys as you know had a vacation home in Palm Beach. My Dad acted as security on site when the family was in town. He liked Jack and Bobby but said Ted was arrogant and unfriendly.

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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    Quote Originally Posted by NightMistBlue View Post
    My Dad was an F.B.I. agent with the West Palm Beach bureau office in the 1960s. The Kennedys as you know had a vacation home in Palm Beach. My Dad acted as security on site when the family was in town. He liked Jack and Bobby but said Ted was arrogant and unfriendly.
    Wow! Yeah I could see that about Ted.

    I think by and large, Jack and Bobby were pretty well liked by most people (that weren't in the CIA or military!), but I think JFK's policies and his reluctance to do certain things are what got him killed ultimately.
    -Austin-
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    Moderator Ive always been a dreamer's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    Well - I'm a little late to the discussion here, but as I said in another thread I can share some thoughts about my visits to The Sixth Floor memorial museum in Dallas. As some of you probably know, The Sixth Floor museum is the old Texas School Book Depository building in Dallas where it was determined that Lee Harvey Oswald fired the shots from a sixth floor window that killed President Kennedy. That was the conclusion of The Warren Commission report.

    To quote what I wrote in the other thread - I was very young when Kennedy was elected president and had no real concept of politics at the time. But, like so many in my generation, he inspired me to pay attention to what was happening in the world. He was assassinated the day before my 12th birthday, and like most of the country (and world), I was devastated. 9/11 is the only other event that has come close to uniting our nation in my lifetime.

    I am not a conspiracy theorist by nature. Being young and naive, I always accepted the results of the Warren Commission's report. However, when I was working in Dallas in the mid-90's I was able to visit The Sixth Floor and that made me doubt things that I had previously accepted as fact. I have not done the research to the extent that Austin has, so I can only go by what my gut feeling is and what common sense tells me after visiting the museum and walking all through Dealey Plaza. As a matter of fact, the visit aroused so much doubt and curiosity that I actually went back a second time. It is truly one of those things that, for me, once I actually saw it with my own eyes, I had a totally different perspective about all the things I had read and heard about the events of 11/22/63. So, in a nutshell, here are some of my observations:

    Standing in the exact spot where Lee Harvey Oswald was and looking out of the 6th floor corner window at the exact spot the limousine was at the time the shots were fired raised some questions - Why did Oswald pick that window instead of the one on the other end of the building that would have been a significantly closer and easier shot with a better view? Visitors are told that the 6th floor of the museum and Dealey Plaza are exactly as they were in 1963. I noticed a tree on the street that was partially blocking the view from the 6th floor window. I asked several different people if a tree was there on 11/22/63 and they all said yes. I even questioned whether the tree had shed it's leaves since it was in the autumn and was told that those trees don't shed their leaves in the warmer climate in Dallas. But, either way the tree did obstruct the view somewhat. The bottom line is I really wonder if Oswald was such an expert marksman that he could have fired 3 perfect shots at a moving target in a matter of seconds??? He reportedly was not considered to be an expert marksman.

    Outside, walking around Dealey Plaza and the grassy knoll only did more to raise my curiosity. Standing at the spot where the limousine was when the shots were fired and looking back up at the 6th floor window only confirmed my doubts about how difficult it would have been for Oswald to have hit his target shots by himself in such a short time. Someone in the grassy knoll would have had such an easy shot. There is a wall at the back of the grassy knoll where a sniper could have easily stayed out of view and had a much easier getaway than Oswald had inside the building. Additionally, there were numerous witnesses that claim they heard shots fired from the grassy knoll. The Zapruder film shows the president's head going backwards. Oswald was firing from the back, whereas as shooter in the grassy knoll would have been firing from the front. Wouldn't that cause the president's head to go backwards??? A couple other things you can see in the Zapruder film is that there is a sharp curve shortly before the shots are fired - Oswald would have had a easy, close straight shot at his target right before the limousine made that turn, but it would have been before the vehicle reached the grassy knoll. Also, there is a brief moment in the film where you can spot a tree like the one I was describing above.

    And then there is the unexplained mystery connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby that raises many more questions. There are lots of other questions as well, but Austin brought most of them up in his posts, so I won't repeat them.

    So, while I dont have any educated theories on what really happened and who was involved, I also no longer accept the conclusion that Oswald acted completely alone. TBH, I doubt if we will ever know the truth in any of our lifetimes.

    "People don't run out of dreams: People just run out of time ..."
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    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    Thank you Dreamer, youve raised some intriguing points.

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    Stuck on the Border WalshFan88's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations



    This is a long video. But I think it answers some of Dreamer's questions about the Z film and why the frame showing his head jolt were they way they are. The film was altered to support the theory of a shot from the back. It was broken down frame by frame. Two teams worked on the project, one who was ignorant and processed the already altered film innocently without any alterations, the crew that didn't see anything so they couldn't be asked about it. The day before, a special team went under the radar and did the alteration, and then sent a modified copy of the film to the team the next day for processing, who thought it was as it was. Certain frames were altered, and it's been said the one frame is missing in entirety. It's been said that KODAK had a secret CIA operation at one of their facilities that was used along with the NPIC.

    It's a long one, but I think worth it, even if you feel the need to skip around. I definitely recommend listening to the older bald man who comes on at 25 minutes in.
    -Austin-
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    Stuck on the Border NightMistBlue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Kennedy Assassinations

    Slightly OT: the Zapruder film was not broadcast to the public until 1975 out of respect to the Kennedy family and because of its disturbing content. In 1975, Geraldo Rivera broadcasted a bootleg version of the film that he obtained. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...in-26-seconds/

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