Eagles Song Survivor: Desperado

[Glennsallnighter]

First of all, I want to preface my remarks to emphasize that I, in no way, mean this in any derogatory way to Bernie or the song Bitter Creek. I love Bernie and I love his early contributions to this band and I think Bitter Creek is a very good song among many other very good songs on this album.

But, in all honesty, I find the solidarity around this song in this game to be very odd. No matter how much a few people here may love it, I don’t believe that it’s popularity in this game is indicative of the mainstream opinion. I really think you would be hard pressed to find Bitter Creek finish as high as third in just about any mainstream poll or survey of this album. The small number of fans playing this game is hardly representative of the entire Eagles fandom, but even it’s final placement in this game is contrived by the fact that it was protected by immunity the entire game.

I started not to comment because I really don’t like for it to sound like I'm bashing a song that I like a lot, but honestly there is nothing that has been said in this thread that’s convinced me that this is a great song. Oddly enough, the more attempts there are to argue it’s merits, the less I’m persuaded because it just strikes me as trying too hard to convince me that something is a masterpiece when I don’t think it is. I don’t really know how to take the comment that the song may have been more popular if it had been sung by one of the other guys. I guess you just as easily suggest that the song wouldn’t have been as popular in this game if it weren’t sung by Bernie. I can only speak for myself and just say that I would almost never form my opinion about how good I think a song is based solely on who sings lead. As I’ve said many times, when I vote in these games I try to put all the songs through my “best” test to force myself to try to be as objective as I can. Of course, nothing can make us totally objective, nor do I think we should be that way. The main criteria I consider are lyrics, music, vocals, harmonies, melody, and arrangement. So yes, vocals are a component, but it is very doubtful that I would judge Bitter Creek any higher with another vocalist. That’s because the vocals aren’t where I have my problem with the song. For me, the music, melody, and lack of energy are what keeps the song from being a standout. Now, I can’t speak to the technical aspects of the music since I am totally ignorant when it gets to that. I just know what my ears tell me. As far as the lack of energy in the song, maybe that does have something to do with the laid back vocal delivery style, but I don't think another vocalist would have made a significant difference. Maybe a livelier arrangement would have taken the song to a higher level for me – it’s hard to say. But in any event, I truly do like the song a lot, and I hate coming across as dissing it when I’m really not. It’s just that I don’t think it has all the components that a truly great song should have. Now that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

I agree with what Dreamer has said here and indeed there are many excellent Eagles and solo Eagle songs that have been lost along the way simply due to the huge volume of excellent music on EACH album. You can only score so many hits. These are usually what the band (Or their producers, marketers etc) deem will be the potential best sellers. The powers that be at the time obviously viewed Desperado and TS to have more 'marketability' or appeal to the general masses than they did BC. Not to take anything away from BC. Very often the hard core fans will have favourites that never make it to release, or performance. And its great that these people (Myself included) keep these songs alive.

I don't think it was a level of 'solidarity' that kept BC in so long. Rather that one person made it an ambition to get in first on the immunity question and answer it correctly each time. Then nominate the song that they wanted to remain immune. This is NOT a criticism. We all have the opportunity to do this, and I guess, the fastest finger wins!!

However not to diss either the song or the person in this, I wonder would it make the game more interesting if perhaps the same song could not be immunised more than twice (either in a row or in a game) or that the same person could not answer the immunity question more than twice in a row. This is just a humble suggestion and in NO WAY reflects the contribution made in this case. I'm merely thinking of introducing more variety nad randomness to it. So the result (and the immune songs) will be less predictable.

OK! This has gone on a bit longer than I expected!!
Obviously there is NO competition in my vote! I just LOVE the melody, the lyrics and hell, Glenn's voice in it!

My vote this round is TEQUILA SUNRISE
for the win...

[MikeA]

Well, Dreamer....you have the statistics behind you to back up your thoughts about Bitter Creek. The sales figures and the popularity (or lack thereof) of Bitter Creek definitely underscore your statements. Usually, I'm in the flow with the consensus of my peers when it comes to any specific song. My tastes in music are pretty "mainstream".

I have been known to have unpopular opinions about a few songs. You'll recall my position on New Kid In Town. That one just never got into my head.

In the case of Bitter Creek though, I seem to be at odds with the masses of people who are on board the same train that you are on. All's I'll say on this one is that I really THANK Bernie for writing it and performing it and give props to the rest of the band and Glyn Johns for including it on the album. It'll get plenty of air time on my MP3.

[TimothyBFan]

I suggest a Survivor do over... complete with new rule that no song can be made immune more than 2 times. Now let's see who makes it to the final 3. Just saying.....

[UK TimFan]

With respect, may I refer people who wish to comment on the 'rules' of Survivor to an earlier post of Dreamer's in this thread.
https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/...563#post146563

[luvthelighthouse]

While BC was first on my list to go... I have to say, even when it came down to the final three, it still didn't receive all the votes. I told you, when I bought the CD, the guy at the record store specifically said BC was one of the best on the album.

I think so much of what makes a song good is how we, as individuals, hear it. I hear Desperado as depressing. Others have made a case that it gives hope to start over. The Eagles version of Desperado may be playing, but we are hearing different songs. KWIM?

I have tried to embrace Desperado, but I just can't. I will admit, with my non musical ear, that it is a well produced song. The vocals are great the music blends together well... but for whatever reason, it has never spoken to me. Long before I even knew who the Eagles were, I didn't care for it.

As for the rules of this game... they seem fair. I recall years ago, watching the real Survivor... and week after week Johnny Fairplay remained in the game. I couldn't stand that guy! What a jerk! He was in the final three and it still amazing he made it that far. He and a friend made up a lie that his Grandmother died and everyone felt bad for him, etc. While I wish BC wasn't immune all those rounds, it is Survivor and you do what you have to, to make sure your song sticks around and survivors.

[TimothyBFan]

With respect, may I refer people who wish to comment on the 'rules' of Survivor to an earlier post of Dreamer's in this thread.
https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/f...563#post146563

Yeah, I remember--- but thanks for reminding me anyways!

[BBKron]

As I said in a previous post, I'm new here, so apparently I don't get a vote in this. But since Desperado is one of my all-time favorite albums ( I love every track on it, and think it is just about perfect), I have followed this thread with much interest over the past week, and have also looked back through the previous rounds, and here are just a few observations I have (as a newcomer to this).
1) First, the song discussions are great, and hearing everyone's various feelings and interpretations of the songs has been most interesting and enlightening, and sometimes even alarming. Thanks for everyone's input.
2) You guys take this game WAY too seriously (and sometimes too personally, it seems). After all, this is just a fun exercise. Discussion can be great, but the 'results' don't really mean anything. It's just a poll. Does it really matter if your favorite song is not everyone else's favorite song?
3) To me, the level of popularity or mainstream appeal of a particular song has absolutely no bearing on the relative value or greatness of that song. Rarely are the songs that are released as singles, or the 'hits' the best songs on an album, at least to me. So, I don't really understand the argument that a certain song should 'survive' because it was a bigger hit than something else. This is a measure of what we each perceive to be the best, or our personal favorite song, which may not necessarily be the biggest hit.

For me, Bitter Creek has always been one of my favorite Eagles songs, and there is just no other Eagles song anything quite like it (and please don't talk about changing it - such as with a different singer, livelier arrangement, etc., it is just perfect as is), but I know perfectly well that it is not most people's favorite, and that is just fine, and to be expected. It has been great to see it so vigorously championed and defended by many here (and a little alarming to see it so attacked by others).
Even still, in the end, I have to say that Desperado would still get my ultimate vote (if I had a vote), as, to me, it still is the ultimate Eagles song, and has more personal meaning to me. Some may say they are tired of it, but I could never get tired of that masterpiece. And Remember, Desperado was never released as a single, it was never a 'hit'. It built-up it's reputation as a classic over the years precisely because people wanted to hear it, at concerts, on the radio, etc., even though it never was a hit song. It just seems Desperado has got to be top song from this album, for all that it represents personally, musically, emotionally, and thematically.
As for Tequila Sunrise, another great song from this great album, but for me, it would probably rank about #5 or so behind a few other songs from this album masterpiece.

Great to see so many people so passionate about this music.

[MikeA]

Great to see so many people so passionate about this music.

I cannot find anything in that post to contradict BBKron for I feel much the same way.

There was only ONE track on that entire album that I didn't think "fit" with the rest and that was more a matter of arrangement than anything to do with the song itself. The 3/4 Waltz of Saturday Night just felt out of place to me. And again, I emphasize that this is strictly a matter of personal preference.

Everything else about that song "fit" though...the lyrics certainly emphasized the "regret" of the protagonist in the song in not being able to pursue what others would call a "normal life".

[BBKron]

There was only ONE track on that entire album that I didn't think "fit" with the rest and that was more a matter of arrangement than anything to do with the song itself. The 3/4 Waltz of Saturday Night just felt out of place to me. And again, I emphasize that this is strictly a matter of personal preference.

Wow, MikeA, I agree completely! Now, I am loathe to criticize anything about this great album, but if I did feel think that there was any weakness at all, it would be precisely that. Saturday Night always seemed to me the weakest track (still very good, mind you), and it is just as you said, it is because the arrangement and style just didn't quite 'fit'. However, the song content, lyrics, mood, and emotional impact are just right, and this song fills an important place in the overall 'story' and album theme, yet it has to be my 'least favorite' (I would have voted it off first) on the album, only for just that reason.

Great Call, MikeA! (However, if pressed, I will dissavow that I ever made a negative comment regarding anything about Desperado).

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Welcome BBK to the discussion and I enjoyed reading your perspective. A couple of thoughts on your comments:

1) First, the song discussions are great, and hearing everyone's various feelings and interpretations of the songs has been most interesting and enlightening, and sometimes even alarming. Thanks for everyone's input.

We've been doing these Survivor games for several years now and have had some passionate song discussions in these games. You should check some of them out.

2) You guys take this game WAY too seriously (and sometimes too personally, it seems). After all, this is just a fun exercise. Discussion can be great, but the 'results' don't really mean anything. It's just a poll. Does it really matter if your favorite song is not everyone else's favorite song?

I mostly agree with you here. We keep trying to emphasize that it's just a game and should be played to have a good time. The objective of the game from my perspective is to have fun. When people get all stressed out about it, we seem to be defeating our purpose. But, having said that, I do think it's natural that people are invested in the results. That's what makes these games different than the other discussion threads that we have about the songs and albums on the board. However, the challenge is to play the game in the spirit of friendly competition - not a "win at all cost" mentality.

3) To me, the level of popularity or mainstream appeal of a particular song has absolutely no bearing on the relative value or greatness of that song. Rarely are the songs that are released as singles, or the 'hits' the best songs on an album, at least to me. So, I don't really understand the argument that a certain song should 'survive' because it was a bigger hit than something else. This is a measure of what we each perceive to be the best, or our personal favorite song, which may not necessarily be the biggest hit.

I couldn't agree with you more that popularity is not indicative of the quality of songs or albums and I would never argue that a song should survive simply because it was a big hit. There are some pretty bad songs out in the universe that have reached #1 on the Billboard charts. In the case of Desperado, Tequila Sunrise was the only song from the album that was a hit, and that didn't even crack the Top 40. So, you don't have to look any further than this album to recognize that commercial success is not an indicator of quality. However, the album did survive because it deservingly came to be recognized as a great piece of work. So my point is when a song or album survives and it recognized by all generations 30 or 40 years after its release, it is because it has struck a chord with the mainstream. And I believe that is somewhat of an indicator of the songs quality. At the very least - it has lasting power. Tequila Sunrise and Desperado are still recognized songs today for a reason. I can't totally explain what the reasons are, but I have to believe it has something to do with the fact that the mainstream public believes they are great songs.

It has been great to see it so vigorously championed and defended by many here (and a little alarming to see it so attacked by others).

Now, you're falling into the competition trap. Why is it that those who defended Bitter Creek are deemed as "championing" it whereas it's detractors "attacked" it? I think we were all just expressing our opinion. Speaking for myself, I tried very hard not to attack the song because I like it a lot.

Great to see so many people so passionate about this music.