Talking in On the Border

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Since I've been snowed in the house all week, I decided I needed something to entertain myself so each day I have been listening to an Eagles album. On Monday, 'Eagles' was the featured album, yesterday it was 'Desperado', and today it has been 'On the Border'. When I listened to the title track, it reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask here for a long time. As long as The Border has been around, I don't ever remember this coming up before. Anyway, what I want to know is who speaks the line "you in some trouble, boy"? For a long time, I thought it was Felder because of the deep voice, but then I remembered that Felder only played on one or two tracks on this album. So then, I decided it must be Bernie. Does everyone agree that it's Bernie?

[Glennsallnighter]

I've wondered that too Dreamer! Its very cute. I love that line.

[TimothyBFan]

I'm probably way off but for some reason I always thought it was Don H. The reason I say that is because when Long Run came out and the part of King Of Hollywood, when he says "we gonna take care of you, darlin'" reminded me of the line "you in some trouble boy".

You've got me thinking and now I really want to know who it is! :hilarious:

[Brooke]

I've always thought it was Don Henley. But ?

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I dunno, it could be, but it doesn't sound like Don at all to me. I'll go ahead and throw another curve into the discussion - I believe the guys are trading off lines in the bridge as follows ...

Randy sings the line "Never mind your name."

Bernie sings the line "Never mind your face."

Glenn sings the lines "And we wanna know whose wing are you under?"

The voice that speaks "you in some trouble boy" sounds like the same voice that sings "Never mind your face" to me, so that's another reason I think it is Bernie.

[sodascouts]

I think it's Don. He can do those funky voices (see Garden of Allah) and the pronunciation sounds Texan to me.

[Super Frey]

I thought the same thing! I had to have three friends tell me it is really Don Henley, I thought it was felder:brickwall: Anyway, I love his voice when he changes it, Fast Company is a good one too. Yes very sexy voice:angel:

[Freypower]

I dunno, it could be, but it doesn't sound like Don at all to me. I'll go ahead and throw another curve into the discussion - I believe the guys are trading off lines in the bridge as follows ...

Randy sings the line "Never mind your name."

Bernie sings the line "Never mind your face."

Glenn sings the lines "And we wanna know whose wing are you under?"

The voice that speaks "you in some trouble boy" sounds like the same voice that sings "Never mind your face" to me, so that's another reason I think it is Bernie.

I thought for years it could have been Bill Szymczyk (I don't know why), but given that Henley is singing lead and the others all have their own lines, I don't see why Bernie would have been left out, and I agree with Dreamer that both voices in the lines she quotes sound similar and are probably Bernie.

I can see why people might think it's Henley because it sounds vaguely 'Southern' but remember Bernie grew up in the South too, even if he was born in Minnesota.

At the end when Henley says 'say goodnight Dick' does anyone think it sounds like Glenn may be saying it as well?

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I thought the same thing! I had to have three friends tell me it is really Don Henley, I thought it was felder:brickwall: Anyway, I love his voice when he changes it, Fast Company is a good one too. Yes very sexy voice:angel:

Well, I'm not sure who your friends are, SF, but with all due respect, how would they know any more about this than any of us do?

Again - I could be wrong, but it just sounds like a totally different voice than Don's to me. Even when he changes his voice in other songs like Garden of Allah or King of Hollywood, I can still detect that it is him. As far as accents, anyone can do those. One other reason that I think it's someone else (Bernie) is because the lyrics themselves suggest that it's someone other than the narrator speaking - they say "Out of nowhere, somebody cuts in and says, you in some trouble boy".

[Scarlet Sun]

I always thought it was Glenn

[Maleah]

Just offering up an opinion like everyone else, but it doesn't sound at ALL like Don H to me. I guess I just always assumed it was Bernie. :shrug:

[Koala]

I always thought that Don speaks the line!

[bernie's bender]

it ain't the coach.

I think it is Bernie....

[Mrs Frey]

Interesting topic, Dreamer!

My ears have always thought that it is Don Henley.

[luvthelighthouse]

All this time I has just guessed it was Felder. Now I'm going to have to give it a careful listen and see if I come up w/something different.

[chaim]

I've never had any doubt that the "you in some trouble boy" is Glenn. Now that only one person has so far suggested it's Glenn, I'm starting to doubt it. But it sure sounds like Glenn to me.

[Glennhoney]

..hey Chaim...as far as I'm concerned, that is definately GLENN!!!!!!!!!!!

[TimothyBFan]

I listened to it a couple times this morning and now I admit, I'm doubting myself and that it might not be Don H. afterall. I actually think that it is Irving Azoff. :hilarious:

Actually I have no clue now, but there has to be a way to find out, right? All of you that are heading to California next weekend to see Glenn--you have an assignment---you need to corner Glenn and get the truth out of him. It will be a tough assignment --I hope you are all up to the task! :eyebrow:

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Actually I have no clue now, but there has to be a way to find out, right? All of you that are heading to California next weekend to see Glenn--you have an assignment---you need to corner Glenn and get the truth out of him. It will be a tough assignment --I hope you are all up to the task! :eyebrow:

Willie, my brain can't even compute this concept of getting Glenn backed in a corner for the purpose of trying to get the truth out of him! :confused: :hmm: :headscratch:

But I'll do what I can, of course. I'll just add this to the list of 2,876 other questions that I would like to ask the man. Wish me luck! :wink:

[Freypower]

I pride myself on being fairly familiar with Glenn's speaking voice. He can do accents and different voices (Born To Boogie). But I have never once thought that 'you in some trouble boy' and 'never mind your face' were Glenn.

Nobody has yet answered my question about whether both Don and Glenn are saying 'say goodnight Dick'. The way it is produced sounds as if there are two voices, not one.

[sodascouts]

I listened to it on the headphones, and I'm undecided about "You in some trouble boy," but I'm thinking I might have been wrong about Don singing it because it's true accents can be faked.

"Never mind your face" doesn't sound like Bernie to me. Still, it makes sense that they wouldn't just leave him out, and this song pre-dates "late arrival" Felder, doesn't it?

Sorry, FP, I can't tell about "Good night, Dick." Heck, I didn't even know they said that until you pointed it out to me.

[Glennhoney]

..well I'm not sure about the other lines...but "you in some trouble boy" sounds a lot like Glenn to me.....don't you think?

[EagleLady]

How can you be so sure it's Glenn? I, personally think it's Don myself.

[Freypower]

..well I'm not sure about the other lines...but "you in some trouble boy" sounds a lot like Glenn to me.....don't you think?

No, I don't think it sounds like Glenn at all, any more than it sounds like Don Henley. You can hear Glenn very clearly in the following line 'we know where you been' so it seems to me that it is someone different saying 'you in some trouble boy'. It is more likely that it is Don Henley, but I agree with what Dreamer said that this line and 'never mind your face' are the same person, and that is more likely to be Bernie given that Don Henley is singing lead on the verses. But if it is not Bernie than I certainly lean more towards it being Don Henley, not Glenn.

But also see what Dreamer said about it being a different voice than the narrator's. Henley sings 'somebody cuts in and says'...... and then hands to the mystery voice.

[luvthelighthouse]

Okay, I just listened to it over and over... I'm gonna say I'm 98% sure it's NOT Henley. It was written by Henley, Frey and Leadon, if that means anything. I'm gonna say, Bernie. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Glenn... okay, is this live on youtube?:hilarious:

[Shadowland07]

the "Say goodnight Dick" is definately both Glenn and Don. i think Don even talks about that line in the booklet for The Very Best of the Eagles album....

Don:
Someone - it had to be Glenn or me - says "Say goodnight Dick," which was a phrase made famous on The Smothers Brother's show when Tommy says, "Say goodnight, Dick." We were addressing Nixon, because at that time it was pretty clear he was on his way out, so that was our little kiss-off to Tricky Dick.

[Mrs Frey]

Actually I have no clue now, but there has to be a way to find out, right? All of you that are heading to California next weekend to see Glenn--you have an assignment---you need to corner Glenn and get the truth out of him. It will be a tough assignment --I hope you are all up to the task! :eyebrow:

TBF, you are a funny girl! :lol:

[Mrs Frey]

Willie, my brain can't even compute this concept of getting Glenn backed in a corner for the purpose of trying to get the truth out of him! :confused: :hmm: :headscratch:

But I'll do what I can, of course. I'll just add this to the list of 2,876 other questions that I would like to ask the man. Wish me luck! :wink:

Dreamer, I'm sure if you managed to get Glenn :heart: backed in a corner, it would be for purposes OTHER than trying to get the truth out of him! :twisted: :wink:

[chaim]

On the album sleeve it says "lead vocal: Don Henley, T.N.T.S. Coach". I know who "coach" is, but what is this "T.N.T.S." business? Anyway, at what point does "Coach" appear on the track?

I'd always assumed that "Never mind your face" was "Coach", but now that I listened to it again I agree it's probably Bernie. On the word "face", especially, there's seems to be a bit of a Bernie tone, I think.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Well, IMO, the vocal on the line "you in some trouble boy" doesn't really sound like any of them, which is probably why we are having this discussion in the first place. :wink: But, as I said before, to my ears, it definitely sounds more like Bernie than any of the other guys.

After reading chaim's post, I went back and checked the credits again and here is what is written ...

Lead Vocal: DON HENLEY, T N T S, COACH, CLAPS: THE CLAPETTS
Written By: Don Henley, Bernie Leadon, Glenn Frey

Now, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that 'Coach' was one of Glenn's nicknames, or I guess 'Coach' could also be Bill Szymczyk. If it is Glenn, then I assumed the Clapetts was a nickname for Don Henley, TNTS, Coach, and Claps. I would further assume that Randy and Bernie were TNTS and Claps, but I don't know which one was TNTS and which one was Claps. It seems to me that I remember reading something else about one of them having the nickname 'Claps' at one point, but the details about this totally escape me now. As for TNTS, I have no idea what it stands for.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

the "Say goodnight Dick" is definately both Glenn and Don. i think Don even talks about that line in the booklet for The Very Best of the Eagles album....

Don:
Someone - it had to be Glenn or me - says "Say goodnight Dick," which was a phrase made famous on The Smothers Brother's show when Tommy says, "Say goodnight, Dick." We were addressing Nixon, because at that time it was pretty clear he was on his way out, so that was our little kiss-off to Tricky Dick.

The way Don words this is "Glenn or me", which to me implies that it is only one of them that says it. However, it also implies that even Don's memory is fuzzy about who it is on the record. I really have no idea who it is since it is bearly audible. But, just taking a guess after listening to it a few times again - I can only detect one voice and it sounds a bit more like Glenn than Don to me.

[chaim]

I always thought that the "The clapettes" was just a joke to "credit" the people doing the handclaps; "(hand)claps: The Clapetts". Wasn't Glenn's nickname "Roach" and not "Coach"?

[sodascouts]

After reading chaim's post, I went back and checked the credits again and here is what is written ...

Lead vocal: DON HENLEY, T N T S, COACH, CLAPS: THE CLAPETTS

This is a case of confusing punctuation!

http://www.glennfreyonline.com/images/borderback.jpg

Look at how the credits are for Ol' 55:
LEAD VOCALS; GLENN & DON HENLEY, PEDAL STEEL GUITAR; AL PERKINS

Commas are used to separate instruments, semicolons (which sometimes look like colons) to indicate credit, ampersand to indicate joint efforts.

So, On the Border's credits say:
LEAD VOCAL; DON HENLEY, T.N.T.S.; COACH, CLAPS; THE CLAPETTS

In that light, here's how we need to look at the credits for On The Border:

Lead Vocal: Don Henley
T.N.T.S.: Coach
Claps: The Clapetts

Since vocal is singular and there is no ampersand, I think we can confidently say that T.N.T.S and CLAPS are different instruments and have nothing to do with the lead vocal.... and that "The Clapetts" like "The Monstertones" is a joke (probably random people sitting around the studio they brought in).

ETA: chaim - Glenn's nickname was Roach but I guess because he was so into sports one might think perhaps he was called Coach too. However, it seems to me that might be a nickname for someone like Szymczyk.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

chaim - I actually agree with you about "The Clapetts" probably referring to the clappers - it's just weird that they would be credited with the vocalist. I know one of Glenn's many nicknames was 'Roach', but I thought one of them was 'Coach' as well. I don't think there is any doubt that Glenn sings the lines "and we wanna know whose wing are you under" in the song, so why wouldn't he be given credit for that as a vocalist if others are credited for their lines. Then again, it is possible that "T N T S, Coach, and Claps" aren't the regular band members at all and others are singing the bridge, although I'm not sure I buy that theory. But, if that's the case, is "Coach" Bill Szymczyk?

Edited to add: Soda, we were posting at the same time. I actually agree with some of your post as well. However, right now, I have to leave this discussion and take care of some real life stuff. :wink:

[TimothyBFan]

However, it also implies that even Don's memory is fuzzy about who it is on the record. .

Gee-Ya think? It was the 70's afterall. :hilarious:

I'm getting a kick out of the fact that Dreamer asked a fairly "simple" question on page 1 to start all this and 4 pages later, I don't believe we are any closer to knowing. :-(

I also believe that T.N.T.S. must be an instrument of some sort (but for the life of me I can't figure out what it would be) that that "Coach" plays and that Claps are performed by "Clapetts" that could be any one or everyone that happen to be there when it was time! JMO

[Scarlet Sun]

I still think it's Glenn, but another possibility is J.D. Souther

[Brooke]

I still think it's Don H.

[Freypower]

YES!! You have provided me with the reason why I always thought 'never mind your face' and 'you in some trouble boy' were Bill Szymczyk, who I know was nicknamed Coach (quote from 1979 Rolling Stone cover story):

'Also known as 'Coach' and 'the Monster Superior'.

So I think my original theory was right all along. The fact that 'Coach' was given a separate credit and the voice sounded nothing like the other Eagles drew me to this conclusion. I don't know what 'TNTS' means though.

ETA: I know this theory is probably no more valid than everyone else's thoughts, but I still say if it isn't Coach, it's either Bernie or (long shot) Henley.

I still think the 'main' 'say good night Dick' voice is Don. The voice is quite clipped, as opposed to Glenn's drawl, and is higher pitched, but Glenn may also be saying it.

[Molly]

Gee-Ya think? It was the 70's afterall. :hilarious:

I'm getting a kick out of the fact that Dreamer asked a fairly "simple" question on page 1 to start all this and 4 pages later, I don't believe we are any closer to knowing. :-(

I also believe that T.N.T.S. must be an instrument of some sort (but for the life of me I can't figure out what it would be) that that "Coach" plays and that Claps are performed by "Clapetts" that could be any one or everyone that happen to be there when it was time! JMO


You're on to something Willie! We'll never figure all of this out unless we all stop and smoke something. It will all make sense. We might even be able to figure out what T.N.T.S. is! :hilarious:

[eaglesvet]

I'm very late entering this discussion. I had always thought it was Don saying the line in question, but there have been enough arguments otherwise that I currently have no idea what I think.

Just a thought about the T.N.T.S. In cytologic lab reports, the initials T.N.T.C. stands for Too Numerous To Count. Maybe Too Numerous To State, or Too Numerous To Say...if Coach is multi-tasking?:?::shrug:

[sodascouts]

Just a thought about the T.N.T.S. In cytologic lab reports, the initials T.N.T.C. stands for Too Numerous To Count. Maybe Too Numerous To State, or Too Numerous To Say...if Coach is multi-tasking?:?::shrug:


I like that speculation, but if that's the case, why is it just next to "On the Border"?

[eaglesvet]

No idea...:confused:

[bernie's bender]

Originally Posted by Shadowland07
the "Say goodnight Dick" is definately both Glenn and Don. i think Don even talks about that line in the booklet for The Very Best of the Eagles album....

Don:
Someone - it had to be Glenn or me - says "Say goodnight Dick," which was a phrase made famous on The Smothers Brother's show when Tommy says, "Say goodnight, Dick." We were addressing Nixon, because at that time it was pretty clear he was on his way out, so that was our little kiss-off to Tricky Dick.

The 'say goodnight dick' thing wasn't from the smothers brothers show, it was from laugh in... Dan Rowan would say to dick martin "say goodnight dick" and they would cut to different cast members and they would say "say goodnight dick"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDjOQuckjpg

[Shadowland07]

this has nothing to do with the talking and all, but i was wondering if anyone knew if the Eagles had ever EVER played this song live?

[Shadowland07]

oh well that's whay Don said lol.




the "Say goodnight Dick" is definately both Glenn and Don. i think Don even talks about that line in the booklet for The Very Best of the Eagles album....

Don:
Someone - it had to be Glenn or me - says "Say goodnight Dick," which was a phrase made famous on The Smothers Brother's show when Tommy says, "Say goodnight, Dick." We were addressing Nixon, because at that time it was pretty clear he was on his way out, so that was our little kiss-off to Tricky Dick.

The 'say goodnight dick' thing wasn't from the smothers brothers show, it was from laugh in... Dan Rowan would say to dick martin "say goodnight dick" and they would cut to different cast members and they would say "say goodnight dick"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDjOQuckjpg

[sodascouts]

this has nothing to do with the talking and all, but i was wondering if anyone knew if the Eagles had ever EVER played this song live?

No, not that I know of.

[bernie's bender]

IIRC, DnG were kind of embarrassed by the song. It was an eye roller for them with Bernie trying to do kind of a blue eyed funk breakdown type thing... this was the era when they still pretended it was a democracy...

I think by the time they got to "i wish you peace" DnG had pretty much decided that wasn't gonna work.

I vaguely remember them doing the song at Anaheim Stadium back in about 75 or 76... I kinda remember the outro part... I could be mistaken, but I kind of remember them doing it.

[Freypower]

But I always think of the song as a precursor to the title track of One Of These Nights, which is supposed to be R&B/soul.

[sodascouts]

Ah, so the quote was from Laugh-In! Guess Don got a bit mixed up. Happens to the best of us! Thanks for posting that YouTube montage, bender. I got a kick out of it. Very funny show.


IIRC, DnG were kind of embarrassed by the song. It was an eye roller for them with Bernie trying to do kind of a blue eyed funk breakdown type thing... this was the era when they still pretended it was a democracy...

Since "On the Border" became the title track and Frey and Henley were co-writers, it seems odd that they would be embarrassed by it such a short time later.

[bernie's bender]

odd, but I think pretty true...

from what I've been told and heard from folks... the deal is that they thought they'd really made something great with Desperado...but when the album kinda stiffed (more than kinda at the time) and they were getting some pretty unkind (and to my mind unfair) reviews... it is like when you think your clothes are cool, but everyone is kinda laughing at you (including Gram Parsons) and your whole goal is to finally be the 'cool kid'... and it ain't happenin. (this definitely fits Glenn and Don)

So, you cut Glyn Johns loose and hire Coach (friend of Stills and Walsh) and go for a harder edge, including kind of a funk thing... and it fits their 'outlaw' image that they are still pursuing... the whole 'on the border' thing... but, very quickly they catch a ration of crapola from peers about their fake funk sound... so, they kinda step away from it.

I love the song... but, I've heard from more than a couple of people that it isn't their favorite song... not as much of an eye roller as "I wish you peace" but in the same category....

criticism about criticism is kinda weird... but, i think things are frequently stranger than they appear....

here is a cool version of Already Gone (http://homepage.mac.com/macmanager/.Music/alreadygone.mp3) I have musician friends who worship this version and find the Eagles version vile and dreadful... some people's kids!

I dig them both!

[Freypower]

Well, let's talk about our opinions of the song On The Border.

I like the whole Watergate era paranoia feel of it - it sums up the era (particularly as a non-American) but I can see that some may roll their eyes at it. I know that Soda doesn't like the 'foolin' with my baby on the telephone' line and I'm not a fan of that either. Most of it though, I enjoy listening to, whether it's 'fake-funk' or not. (If they didn't like the sound why Funky New Year and - indeed - Frail Grasp On The Big Picture and Fast Company)? In some respects it has aged slightly better than its successor, the slick and soulful One Of These Nights. I like the fact that they all have vocal parts (although see this entire discussion) and I particularly like Glenn's part (no surprise there).

In my opinion it is a far superior song to anything on the OOTN album except for that album's Big Three, but then OOTN is my least favourite Eagles album while OTB is my third favourite.

[Fan_For_Life]

I've always thought it was Don who sang "You in some trouble boy.."

[bernie's bender]

Well, let's talk about our opinions of the song On The Border.

I like the whole Watergate era paranoia feel of it - it sums up the era (particularly as a non-American) but I can see that some may roll their eyes at it. I know that Soda doesn't like the 'foolin' with my baby on the telephone' line and I'm not a fan of that either. Most of it though, I enjoy listening to, whether it's 'fake-funk' or not. (If they didn't like the sound why Funky New Year and - indeed - Frail Grasp On The Big Picture and Fast Company)? In some respects it has aged slightly better than its successor, the slick and soulful One Of These Nights. I like the fact that they all have vocal parts (although see this entire discussion) and I particularly like Glenn's part (no surprise there).

In my opinion it is a far superior song to anything on the OOTN album except for that album's Big Three, but then OOTN is my least favourite Eagles album while OTB is my third favourite.

this is a great post! I like the song a lot too and I always loved the 'break down'.... your point about fast company and funky new year are well taken... I don't think those songs are very good at all and are way more embarrassing... but, I also think that since DH was behind those two... he would like them better.

on OOTN, beyond 'the big three' I absolutely love Hollywood Walts, Too Many Hands and the nod to BB King---> After the thrill is gone.

I'd have to say that I love the first 4 records the best by a long ways.... but, I get what you are saying about OOTN....

As someone who remembers watergate all too well... the paranoia was well founded back then... I think now we just kind of accept it.

very cool to hear a different perspective on OOTN...

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I'm getting a kick out of the fact that Dreamer asked a fairly "simple" question on page 1 to start all this and 4 pages later, I don't believe we are any closer to knowing. :-(

Good grief Willie - I thought we had reached a conscensus here! :lol: Seriously, though, I am also surprised how 'all over the place' we are about who sings the line. About the only thing we can seem to agree on (so far) is that it is NOT Randy!

However, after Soda's post about the album credits, and the subsequent discussion, I have changed my mind a bit. I still think it is Bernie, but I can also see where it may be Bill Szymczyk, who is probably "Coach". I'm not totally convinced though. Obviously, we'll probably never know for sure because of the vagueness of the album credits. Like everyone else so far, I also have no idea what the T.N.T.S. is that is credited to "Coach". That could very well be the key to the mystery.

As far as the song itself, I love it. I also agree that, overall, the On the Border album is stronger than One of These Nights. However, I can see bender's point that some members of the band do not share that point-of-view. Based on comments that Don H. and Glenn have made regarding both albums, they both seem to think OOTN is stronger. Also, On the Border is their only album that is not represented in their current live set list.

[sodascouts]

Yeah, Glenn and Don do seem to like One of These Nights more. Glenn has said the title track is one of his favorite Eagles songs. While that album houses my all-time favorite Eagles song, "Take It to the Limit," I prefer On the Border overall. I like all of the songs on there except for "You Never Cry Like a Lover" which, IMHO, is sexist (I know not everyone agrees with that assessment). "Is It True" is OK, but not a standout. Almost all the other tracks are terrific, especially "Already Gone," "My Man," "Good Day in Hell," and "Best of My Love."

Ironically, the title track is not on my favorites list. I was born post-Nixon but I feel I can still appreciate the "paranoia" aspect, although as FP says I cringe at the "foolin' with my baby on the telephone" line. Musically, it's got some good moments, but it just doesn't appeal to me as a whole. To me, it comes off almost as a novelty song with its funny voices, conversations with "Big Brother," and the like. Of course, that's just my perspective, and certainly I understand that others might not feel the same.

[bernie's bender]

Curious here.

What do you think 'foolin with my baby on the telephone' is about?

I won't make any assumptions, but since I'm from that era, I might have an insight about it (as a male of the species from that time) that may be of interest to you.

sexism with the eagles? nooooooooooooooooooooooooo, say it ain't so!

but in 'you never cry like a lover'? whaaaa? adonde? I don't see it...

I took a look at the lyrics and I'm baffled... I'm all ears...

[sodascouts]

Curious here.

What do you think 'foolin with my baby on the telephone' is about?

That he's teasing her and saying some risque things to her over the phone?



but in 'you never cry like a lover'? whaaaa? adonde? I don't see it...

I took a look at the lyrics and I'm baffled... I'm all ears...The lyrics condemning the woman who never "cries like a lover" or "sighs when it feels real good" are typical of the sexist perspective that if the woman isn't being sexually responsive, it must be HER fault and she needs to "try a little harder" to "get loose." Well, maybe HE should try a little harder.

I've had that impression from the first time I heard the song, but I think I'm the only one on The Border who does. I do have some feminist tendencies. :) You're in the majority if you disagree with me.

I like the "broken-down carousel" metaphor, though.

[TimothyBFan]

I'm glad Bernie asked about the line "foolin' with my baby on the telephone". I was wondering why a couple here were "down" on that line. I always thought it was a cute line. My perspective was that him and his lady were "foolin' around", teasing, etc. on the telephone and really didn't see anything the matter with that. :headscratch: Interesting how everyone interprets things differently.

[EagleLady]

I'm with you Willie. I didn't see the fuss over that line either.

[luvthelighthouse]

As far as the song goes, I can say, it's not one of my favorites at all. I don't care for the telephone line either, but mainly because I think it just sounds silly and immature. I'd perfer the song OOTN to OTB any day.

[EagleLady]

I don't think it's silly or immature at all. I think it's really a neat song.

[sodascouts]

I don't care for the telephone line either, but mainly because I think it just sounds silly and immature.

Exactly. Like I said, it makes me cringe!

[eaglesvet]

Nice sig, Soda!
I really love the album OTB! I can play Ol' 55 several times in a row, a practice which drives hubby crazy...so that happens mostly in my car!

The 'telephone' line in OTB doesn't bother me at all...I've always thought it was kind of cute and innocent.

[Scarlet Sun]

The lyrics condemning the woman who never "cries like a lover" or "sighs when it feels real good" are typical of the sexist perspective that if the woman isn't being sexually responsive, it must be HER fault and she needs to "try a little harder" to "get loose." Well, maybe HE should try a little harder.

I've had that impression from the first time I heard the song, but I think I'm the only one on The Border who does. you aren't

[bernie's bender]

so, it is all just opinion and context... you like a line, you don't like a line etc...

but......

Phone sex didn't really get 'invented' until like the mid 1980's... foolin' with your baby on the telephone is not about sex or risque stuff (I don't think)...

Affect a texas accent (after all they are down on the border, right?) and imagine you are in a grimy bar or at a pay phone (remember those?) in a funky gas station and your friend says, "hey man, whachoo doin'".... your answer back then would have been "foolin' with my baby on the telephone"...

In the early 70's = NO cordless telephones. Private conversations were had sitting on the linoleum floor in the kitchen while your parents/friends whatever watched Maude on tv and kept telling you to "get off the phone!"

Most 'lover' type conversations on the phone were pretty lame in the risque dept.... they were mostly 'why are you so quiet?' 'I'm not quiet, I'm just upset' 'oh come on baby, don't be upset' ad infinitum....

So, to contextualize it to the time, I'd bet money it wasn't sex talk on the telephone... it was hearing about mama and why he never takes her anywhere nice and does he want to see her new shoes.... boy/girl territorial squabbles...

just my take going back to that time...

on the "you never cry like a lover"... I have no doubt that misogyny reigned for several members of the band for many years, I kind of think they've advanced (based on appearances) but, their early attitudes about women were not very evolved.

I differ on the interpretation of "You never cry like a lover" as being sexist. I understand the source (thanks for sharing) but I don't interpret the song that way...

I took the sentiment of the song to be similar to Rod Stewart's "I know I'm losing you." In the Eagles tune, i think the protagonist knows that his lover is drifting away and he can't do anything about it but complain... the implied part is that the failure is not hers, but his. He knows he doesn't have what it takes to keep her.

His central complaint is that she (their relationship) is not what he dreams an ideal relationship would be... and the math doesn't work, in his mind she IS who he should be happy with, and yet, neither is happy or satisfied.

True, he is sexual in his equation... that key indicators would be in the level of passion that would be demonstrable (but this is more immaturity and insecurity than sexism if you ask me... a young man--- if thoughtful or caring at all, will probably err on the side of verifying the habituation of orgasms to the point of nagging... did you? are you sure? you weren't faking?)

In the end, the lack of feedback (positive feedback) from his lover, convinces our lothario that the relationship lacks intimacy (though sex is present.)

My argument (rhetorically speaking) that the song is actually NOT sexist is this... there is an old adage that for men a man will be intimate in order to get sex and that a woman will provide sex for intimacy... (I think Dr. Phil or somebody said it and it was repeated to me)

In this song, the guy wants intimacy, not just sex. He wants to 'feel' her emotionally and be connected psychically and instead, feels her distance...

Granted, his language is sexual and graphic (somewhat, I mean, not like a rap song or something, but suggestive) but there is a longing and a sweetness to his need for her and his perceived failure....

and the intro chords are cool to that song too...

Anyway, just my take on those two.

[Freypower]

That is a very interesting perspective on YNCLAL, BB. I shared Soda's opinion of it being somewhat sexist in that it's only the woman who has to 'try a little harder' but I can see what you mean - he wants intimacy and he's getting distance - but I would still say the distance is because of the way he's lecturing her!

Ironically it's the song that is trying too hard, with all that heavy guitar work which is supposed to sound anguished but breaks the quiet mood. Compare with a vaguely similar song, I Can't Tell You Why, where the music doesn't resort to histrionics to make the point.

[bernie's bender]

Timmy vs. JD.

I have an amazing board recording of a JD show back in the 70's... if he were a garden tool, he'd be a rake, that is fo sho!

That song is classic JD rakishness with Henley's wishing everyone else would just 'be a little better'.

I like the guitars though... and I love the opening chord sequence... classic JD.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I was browsing back through this thread, and I realized I had meant to respond to bender's comments re: YNCLAL because we pretty much share the same interpretation of the lyrics. Just thought I'd repost what I wrote about it in another thread when the topic was being discussed previously.


I've got yet another interpretation of the lyrics of the song. IMO, I don't think he is putting the blame all on the woman. At the very point in the song where the "try a little harder" starts, he switches over talking about himself. The lines are:

I can't live with you baby, can't live without it
And sometimes I believe in love
Sometimes I doubt it
But your life goes on
Like a broken down carousel
Where somebody left the music on

The "try a little harder" could apply to the man or the woman. As I said earlier, to me, he is just lamenting over the fact that the relationship isn't working out for either of them.

In any event, as we've often said, good songwriters leave the lyrics open for different interpretations. There's not supposed to be a right or wrong.

[GettheLeadonOut!!]

back on topic, I always assumed (and still believe) "Never mind your face" is Bernie as he was one of the co-writers. That line sounds like Bernie to me but couldn't say 100% for sure...

Just to comment on the song, a great Leadon opening rock riff vaguely reminiscent of Witchy Woman (but hate those fake cheesy Szymzykczk hand claps. The funk groove at the end must be Glenn or Don's (probably Don's [yet could be Bernie's?!!!], groovy but dated and perhaps too calculating for '74. Don's vocals are superb (as always) and Glenn pulls it all together (as usual) for a great track well worth revisiting for 2010 tour.

As far as YNCLAL being sexist, as Nigel Tufnel would say.."so what's wrong with being sexy?"

[Ive always been a dreamer]

back on topic, I always assumed (and still believe) "Never mind your face" is Bernie as he was one of the co-writers. That line sounds like Bernie to me but couldn't say 100% for sure...

What about the original line in question, GLO? Any thoughts on who is saying the line "you in some trouble, boy"?

[GettheLeadonOut!!]

What about the original line in question, GLO? Any thoughts on who is saying the line "you in some trouble, boy"?

That's absolutly Glenn. I have no doubts about it. I read somewhere that they were having trouble cutting this track and then got real loose on booze and nailed it. Randy's "never mind your nayayayame" I think is testament to that, they we're having a good 'ol time.

[Freypower]

The voice is too low for Glenn. I'm sorry, but I just never once considered it was him. It is so similar to the 'never mind your face' voice that I think they are by the same person.

And you hear him clearly in the next line: 'we know where you been'. Why would he do both lines and do them in entirely different voices? It's the same with 'never mind your face/just show us your card'. He then does 'and we wanna know whose wing are you under' so why would he have done 'never mind your face' which as I said, I think is the 'you in some trouble' voice.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

FP, as you know, I also think it is probably the same person saying/singing the "you in some trouble boy" and "never mind your face" lines. In my opinion, that person is Bernie. My second theory is that it is Szymczyk saying "you in some trouble boy" and Bernie singing "never mind your face".

However, I don't agree that the voice is too low for Glenn. Even though I personally don't think it is Glenn, the voice speaking the line is too low for any of the guys normal register. However, Bernie, Don, or Glenn were all probably capable of changing their voice and speaking deep enough to say that line. Although, again, I do think Bernie's voice was probably the deepest of the three back then.

Well, I went back and did a little calculating and after almost a month and 8 pages of discussion, we are no closer to figuring this out than we were at the beginning of this thread. A fairly even number of posters are split between it being Bernie, Don, or Glenn. Unfortunately, since the song was never performed live as far as we know, I guess this will remain a mystery unless or until someone can offer up some real insight.