Question on "Lyin' Eyes"

[maryc2130]

Hi there! :wave:

I'm a newbie here, although I've been lurking for a bit, and I've been an Eagles fan for a LONG time! It's great to come here and see so many fans devoted to my favorite boys. :thumbsup:

This afternoon I've been getting some cleaning done and listening to the Farewell I DVD. Whenever I hear "Lyin' Eyes", it reminds me of a comment I heard (or read) Don Henley say. It was something to the effect that Lyin' Eyes was Glenn's baby, and he thinks that he (Don) wrote one verse of it, and Glenn wrote the other two verses and the chorus.

This always makes me wonder what verse he wrote. I have my idea, although there is one line in there that sounds very Glenn to me. LOL.

So, I thought I'd open it up to the experts and see if anyone else has an opinion.

Which verse do you think Don wrote - 1, 2, or 3? :)

[Tiffanny Twisted]

Hi,
I'm tiffany twisted. welcome to the border. I will defer to soda on the answer to your question. I just wanted to say greetings and enjoy your time here on the border.

tt
.

[sodascouts]

Welcome, Mary! I don't recall hearing an interview like the one you mentioned. It surprises me to think of them writing it like that, but who knows!

[Prettymaid]

Welcome MC! That is the book I would like them to write. I want to know about each song and how and why it was written (similar to what Lennon and McCartney did seperately).

[Freypower]

Don is quoted in the Complete Greatest Hits thus:

'Glenn's pretty much responsible for that track & for the title, the choruses. I helped out with the verses & perhaps with the melody. It's really Glenn's baby'.

He is not saying here that he wrote an entire verse. I have always thought that they collaborated on it, as they did with Get Over It & that they wrote most of the lyrics together. I would be interested to know which particular line you believe to be Glenn's.

[zeldabjr]

Welcome MC! That is the book I would like them to write. I want to know about each song and how and why it was written (similar to what Lennon and McCartney did seperately).

that would be fascinating right?

Welcome to the border Mary...hope you enjoy your time here!

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Welcome, Mary. I have no idea what the answer to your question is, but I'm glad you joined!

[chaim]

There are people who feel that they can recognize Don's lyric writing anywhere, so it'd be interesting to hear their opinions on Lyin' Eyes - which lines could be Don's. This may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. I'd really like to hear what they have to say.

[WalshFan88]

There are people who feel that they can recognize Don's lyric writing anywhere, so it'd be interesting to hear their opinions on Lyin' Eyes - which lines could be Don's. This may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. I'd really like to hear what they have to say.

Since I'm sure I'm one of the ones being referred to in this post, I'm going to say this. I'm not really sure that Don wrote a verse but if I had to go by my WAG, I'd say this:


On the other side of town a boy is waiting
with fiery eyes and dreams no one could steal
She drives on through the night anticipating
'Cause he makes her feel the way she used to feelI've always felt Henley had a great way of turning lyrics into pictures when he sings and really making it like a movie playing or a picture collage where you really can "see" what he's talking about and not just assume.

LE doesn't give me that kind of vibe like I get from HC or LITFL, TBH, but if there is any verse that does, it's that quoted one above.

I think he's a very "visual" lyricist. Where as to me Glenn is much better at singing/writing "feel good" songs (TIE, AG, PEF) or songs with a thought out story (LE, TS, NKIT) and more detail. Don's come out like movie scripts or something (LITFL for sure, even HC). Like taking you on a visual journey. Hard to explain - easy to see, for me at least. JMO. Maybe its more the way he sings it than writing, IDK.

[Freypower]

I find this assumption that Don's writing is 'visual' and Glenn's 'not visual' incredibly simplistic and derogatory to Glenn.

We do not know for certain who wrote which parts of this song. Glenn sings most of it so I have always thought he wrote most of it. The idea that because you get a more 'visual' vibe from the verse you quoted, that means you think it is more likely that Don wrote it, I repeat, I find far too simplistic (despite your statement that you're not sure). What about 'she gets up & pours herself a strong one...' ? That verse is 'visual' too.

To say Glenn's songs are not 'visual' - how many examples do you want? Tequila Sunrise, It's Your World Now, Smuggler's Blues, You Belong To The City, River Of Dreams, Long Hot Summer, After Hours. And you can be just as 'visual' in evoking feelings in a song like You Are Not Alone as you can writing lyrics which play like a 'movie script'. Not all songs have to 'tell a story'. In any case you then say he writes songs which have 'more detail' and a 'thought out story' which appears to contradict your statement that his songs aren't 'visual'.

All of this comes down to personal preference. They are both great songwriters. You prefer both Don's singing & writing because you find them more evocative, which is fair enough, but I have to tell you that Glenn's singing & his songs take me on just the same visual journey that Don's songs take you.

[chaim]

Since I'm sure I'm one of the ones being referred to in this post, I'm going to say this. I'm not really sure that Don wrote a verse but if I had to go by my WAG, I'd say this:

I've always felt Henley had a great way of turning lyrics into pictures when he sings and really making it like a movie playing or a picture collage where you really can "see" what he's talking about and not just assume.

LE doesn't give me that kind of vibe like I get from HC or LITFL, TBH, but if there is any verse that does, it's that quoted one above.

I think he's a very "visual" lyricist. Where as to me Glenn is much better at singing/writing "feel good" songs (TIE, AG, PEF) or songs with a thought out story (LE, TS, NKIT) and more detail. Don's come out like movie scripts or something (LITFL for sure, even HC). Like taking you on a visual journey. Hard to explain - easy to see, for me at least. JMO. Maybe its more the way he sings it than writing, IDK.

Thanks!
By the way, I wasn't thinking of you or any one person. I don't visit this forum often, so I honestly didn't remember who it was that spoke about recognizing Don's lyric writing. Turned out to be you! Anyway, I know that you don't actually know which lyrics are Don's, but I was wondering if there are certain lyrics in Lyin' Eyes that make you "see things" like Don's lyrics tend to make you do.
Again, thanks for your reply.

[WalshFan88]

I find this assumption that Don's writing is 'visual' and Glenn's 'not visual' incredibly simplistic and derogatory to Glenn.

We do not know for certain who wrote which parts of this song. Glenn sings most of it so I have always thought he wrote most of it. The idea that because you get a more 'visual' vibe from the verse you quoted, that means you think it is more likely that Don wrote it, I repeat, I find far too simplistic (despite your statement that you're not sure). What about 'she gets up & pours herself a strong one...' ? That verse is 'visual' too.

To say Glenn's songs are not 'visual' - how many examples do you want? Tequila Sunrise, It's Your World Now, Smuggler's Blues, You Belong To The City, River Of Dreams, Long Hot Summer, After Hours. And you can be just as 'visual' in evoking feelings in a song like You Are Not Alone as you can writing lyrics which play like a 'movie script'. Not all songs have to 'tell a story'. In any case you then say he writes songs which have 'more detail' and a 'thought out story' which appears to contradict your statement that his songs aren't 'visual'.

All of this comes down to personal preference. They are both great songwriters. You prefer both Don's singing & writing because you find them more evocative, which is fair enough, but I have to tell you that Glenn's singing & his songs take me on just the same visual journey that Don's songs take you.

See, I knew when I answered Chaim I'd likely be biting myself in the @ss and regretting it later because I knew you'd be upset even though I wasn't slamming Glenn in the slightest, just making a comparison of differences. I guess I'll know not to do so in the future. I feel like I have to tiptoe around you when I post anymore, for fear that you will take anything I post as a slam against Glenn.

In this case it was a simple comparison between their songs. Not good vs bad, but rather the differences and what makes them unique to me and what I clearly see. FWIW, I like them both equally as songwriters.

[Prettymaid]

Austin, please continue giving your opinions here on the board. It does seem to me that lately when you've posted your thoughts on either this issue or the Felder issue, it takes us on a merry-go-round of posts between you and FP. I, for one, can understand and appreciate both of your opinions, but after awhile it's clear that you both have to agree to disagree.

FP, I think that WF is growing battle weary with you, and maybe you need to lighten up on topics where you know he's just giving his opinion.

[chaim]

Austin, please continue giving your opinions here on the board. It does seem to me that lately when you've posted your thoughts on either this issue or the Felder issue, it takes us on a merry-go-round of posts between you and FP. I, for one, can understand and appreciate both of your opinions, but after awhile it's clear that you both have to agree to disagree.

FP, I think that WF is growing battle weary with you, and maybe you need to lighten up on topics where you know he's just giving his opinion.

:thumbsup:.

I'm feeling awkward, because it feels like I started something here, although, like I said in my initial post, it certainly wasn't my intention. I was genuinely interested in hearing the opinion of those who tend to experience Don's lyrics in a certain way.

[WalshFan88]

:thumbsup:.

I'm feeling awkward, because it feels like I started something here, although, like I said in my initial post, it certainly wasn't my intention. I was genuinely interested in hearing the opinion of those who tend to experience Don's lyrics in a certain way.

Definitely don't feel awkward. It's not your fault! I was happy to answer your question and give my guess and thoughts on the song and that's all it was. :) Although I wasn't sure at first if you were being sarcastic or not, LOL. It's hard for me to tell through text sometimes.

Music is a universal language, but oh so very subjective.

[WalshFan88]

It does seem to me that lately when you've posted your thoughts on either this issue or the Felder issue, it takes us on a merry-go-round of posts between you and FP. I, for one, can understand and appreciate both of your opinions, but after awhile it's clear that you both have to agree to disagree.

Thank you. That's all they are - simply my thoughts on what "I" personally hear, or in the case of DF, my feelings and opinion on his departure. In my post I was in no way slamming Glenn or even thinking of anything remote like that. I was just comparing what I hear when I listen to each of their songs. In the case of Felder, I do think he got a raw deal in general as I've said many times, but I still like Glenn as a singer, writer, and performer and enjoy his stuff too, as much as I do Henley.

[TimothyBFan]

Honestly---I don't even know what to say to this thread!!!!! My first thought in reading all this was, "Wow--what a great impression we've just made on the new member that asked this question!" Sorry, Mary---conversations sometimes get heated around here because we are all so passionate about the Eagles. Please don't let this deter you from coming back and posting here.

NOW.....


I find this assumption that Don's writing is 'visual' and Glenn's 'not visual' incredibly simplistic and derogatory to Glenn.

Where in the below quote from Austin did he say ANYTHING "derogatory" about Glenn? And for that matter---where do you get the impression that his assumption is "incredibly simplistic"?


el I've always felt Henley had a great way of turning lyrics into pictures when he sings and really making it like a movie playing or a picture collage where you really can "see" what he's talking about and not just assume.

LE doesn't give me that kind of vibe like I get from HC or LITFL, TBH, but if there is any verse that does, it's that quoted one above.

I think he's a very "visual" lyricist. Where as to me Glenn is much better at singing/writing "feel good" songs (TIE, AG, PEF) or songs with a thought out story (LE, TS, NKIT) and more detail. Don's come out like movie scripts or something (LITFL for sure, even HC). Like taking you on a visual journey. Hard to explain - easy to see, for me at least. JMO. Maybe its more the way he sings it than writing, IDK.

To me, this post was very well stated and in fact, in the statement I have bolded, he was nothing but very complimentary to Glenn and even says he thinks Glenn is MUCH BETTER at singing those kind of songs.

I love you FP, I really, really do... but not everyone feels the same passion for Glenn as you do and have differing opinions on him. And I might as well add something I've been thinking for quite awhile and just haven't expressed... I feel that for some reason, because you love and respect Glenn so much, that you somehow feel that you have to defend him in every discussion we have. There's a lot of people on this board that I'm willing to bet have just as much passion, love and respect for Glenn as you and maybe some that have more but I don't see them almost angrily defending him every time someone says something about him they may not agree with.

Personally, I love the discussions between you and I and I love reading almost everyone's opinions here. There's a lot of times that I see opinions here and think to myself, "I get that!!!". But, like PM said, I feel some of us need to "lighten up".


See, I knew when I answered Chaim I'd likely be biting myself in the @ss and regretting it later because I knew you'd be upset even though I wasn't slamming Glenn in the slightest, just making a comparison of differences. I guess I'll know not to do so in the future. I feel like I have to tiptoe around you when I post anymore, for fear that you will take anything I post as a slam against Glenn.

In this case it was a simple comparison between their songs. Not good vs bad, but rather the differences and what makes them unique to me and what I clearly see. FWIW, I like them both equally as songwriters.

BULL!!!!! You keep stating your opinions just like everyone on here!!! You and I don't always agree, but I respect your opinion and won't tell you you're wrong in stating them-as most of us here won't! In fact, I love your opinions because they make a hell of a lot of sense to me. I love and respect your opinions on ALL music, not just Eagles music, more than almost anyone else's on here. It's your passion and it shows! Like a discussion you and I were having the other day about the connection a guitarist has with their guitar--I GET THAT!!!! You can state things that I feel and can't seem to get my point across or put into words. The whole "visual lyrics" things is spot on in my opinion and I know exactly what you mean by Don's lyrics. He always makes me see pictures with his songs. KWIM?

[TimothyBFan]

:thumbsup:.

I'm feeling awkward, because it feels like I started something here, although, like I said in my initial post, it certainly wasn't my intention. I was genuinely interested in hearing the opinion of those who tend to experience Don's lyrics in a certain way.

Please, please, please--- don't feel awkward and don't let it deter you from posting here. We all value each others opinions and welcome questions and interaction from each other. It's just that some of us get quite passionate about our opinions.

[WalshFan88]

BULL!!!!! You keep stating your opinions just like everyone on here!!! You and I don't always agree, but I respect your opinion and won't tell you you're wrong in stating them-as most of us here won't! In fact, I love your opinions because they make a hell of a lot of sense to me. I love and respect your opinions on ALL music, not just Eagles music, more than almost anyone else's on here. It's your passion and it shows! Like a discussion you and I were having the other day about the connection a guitarist has with their guitar--I GET THAT!!!! You can state things that I feel and can't seem to get my point across or put into words. The whole "visual lyrics" things is spot on in my opinion and I know exactly what you mean by Don's lyrics. He always makes me see pictures with his songs. KWIM?

Honestly, I do think before I click post about if it will be taken as something it isn't - even though I do post (til now). I feel I have to respond when I'm told I'm being derogatory towards Glenn, then I do respond, hence the "merry go round" PM was talking about. But it does get a bit tiring having everything I say be taken as a slam against Glenn or being unfair to him, which is exactly what I meant by the "tiptoe" comment I will edit my words after I post them just to try to avoid it although it fails, LOL. I do post though as I feel I should be able to share them, but I do try to avoid it being taken wrong whenever possible. I really do have to overthink my own posts, even though I do respond. However I have decided to ignore it from now on and not respond as it doesn't get anywhere.

[TimothyBFan]

Honestly, I do think before I click post about if it will be taken as something it isn't - even though I do post (til now). I feel I have to respond when I'm told I'm being derogatory towards Glenn, then I do respond, hence the "merry go round" PM was talking about. But it does get a bit tiring having everything I say be taken as a slam against Glenn or being unfair to him, which is exactly what I meant by the "tiptoe" comment I will edit my words after I post them just to try to avoid it although it fails, LOL. I do post though as I feel I should be able to share them, but I do try to avoid it being taken wrong whenever possible. I really do have to overthink my own posts, even though I do respond. However I have decided to ignore it from now on and not respond as it doesn't get anywhere.

I think most of us do stop and think before hitting that post button and I also think we should. I know I do myself, especially when responding to a "touchy" subject, read over it. For me, it's as much about my grammar, punctuation, spelling and capitalization as it is about what I say. It's hard to make a point if people can't understand it or even read it. KWIM?

I say carry on, just the way you do!! Why shouldn't you?

[WalshFan88]

I think most of us do stop and think before hitting that post button and I also think we should. I know I do myself, especially when responding to a "touchy" subject, read over it. For me, it's as much about my grammar, punctuation, spelling and capitalization as it is about what I say. It's hard to make a point if people can't understand it or even read it. KWIM?

I say carry on, just the way you do!! Why shouldn't you?

I agree, although there becomes a point I think where when you have to second guess everything you say as to try to avoid an argument (even if you end up posting it), that it becomes tiresome. But I always do a word check as well. I don't mind a passionate debate, but when every thought/opinion/etc you post gets turned into something its not, it gets old after awhile. That's what I meant.

I will of course still share my views but I just see no purpose to the back and forth stuff anymore over everything I post. We (FP and I) obviously disagree on this kind of stuff, no use keep talking about it, or "beating a dead horse into the ground".

[Prettymaid]

Austin, you've always been respectful on the board. I've never read one of your posts and thought that you've crossed any line. It's too bad you feel you have to edit your posts to avoid the wrath of FP! :hilarious: I understand though. For example, if I post that Joe is a crowd favorite of Eagles shows, I know that FP will somehow infer that I am not respecting Glenn, even though I don't mean any such thing. But I have to post what I think, otherwise I would get very bored here.

So to each his/her own opinion, and let's relish the differences! That is what makes The Border so fun - posting our opinions respectfully and answering posts with respect also.

[WalshFan88]

Austin, you've always been respectful on the board. I've never read one of your posts and thought that you've crossed any line. It's too bad you feel you have to edit your posts to avoid the wrath of FP! :hilarious: I understand though. For example, if I post that Joe is a crowd favorite of Eagles shows, I know that FP will somehow infer that I am not respecting Glenn, even though I don't mean any such thing. But I have to post what I think, otherwise I would get very bored here.

So to each his/her own opinion, and let's relish the differences! That is what makes The Border so fun - posting our opinions respectfully and answering posts with respect also.

Amen. I couldn't agree more! I think it's great there is passionate likeminded people who feel as strongly about music as I do - even if we don't always agree on everything all the time or like the same stuff. It's what makes us unique. If we all liked the same stuff it'd be a pretty boring place.

[Prettymaid]

Okay then, since we all agree that we have no idea who wrote what, let's just make it a fun thread of guesses!

First of all though Mary, aren't there more than three verses in LE? :shrug: It sure seems like eight to me!

Just for fun, I would guess that maybe Don had a hand in writing this one.

My, oh my, you sure know how to arrange things
You set it up so well, so carefully
Ain't it funny how your new life didn't change things
You're still the same old girl you used to be

I'm not sure I can say why I guess this one....the whole song (except for the chorus) is she, she, she. This verse says you. He's now speaking to her instead of about her. And the you sure know how to arrange things line sounds kind of Don-ish to me, plus he harmonizes on this verse. So there you have it. My very rough (and fun) opinion on the whole thing! :hilarious:

[Freypower]

I agree, although there becomes a point I think where when you have to second guess everything you say as to try to avoid an argument (even if you end up posting it), that it becomes tiresome. But I always do a word check as well. I don't mind a passionate debate, but when every thought/opinion/etc you post gets turned into something its not, it gets old after awhile. That's what I meant.

I will of course still share my views but I just see no purpose to the back and forth stuff anymore over everything I post. We (FP and I) obviously disagree on this kind of stuff, no use keep talking about it, or "beating a dead horse into the ground".

I overreacted & I apologise. There is no need to tiptoe around. If I disagree with you I will not respond.

[timfan]

I think we need to remember what makes this board fun is that we all have our favourites and differing opinions! It isn't about not posting or apologising for having a fav or opinion... that's what makes this board and being an Eagle fan interesting. We are all allowed to have those opinions and need to respect each other and those opinions even if we don't agree with them. JMO of course! :thumbsup:

[Freypower]

Austin, you've always been respectful on the board. I've never read one of your posts and thought that you've crossed any line. It's too bad you feel you have to edit your posts to avoid the wrath of FP! :hilarious: I understand though. For example, if I post that Joe is a crowd favorite of Eagles shows, I know that FP will somehow infer that I am not respecting Glenn, even though I don't mean any such thing. But I have to post what I think, otherwise I would get very bored here.

So to each his/her own opinion, and let's relish the differences! That is what makes The Border so fun - posting our opinions respectfully and answering posts with respect also.

You will get no argument from me that Joe is the crowd favourite. Not even I am so blind. Sorry, I had to clarify that.

[VAisForEagleLovers]

Wow, I can see I missed quite a bit while having fun in Florida! At any rate, PM, I know you said FUN, but you may be on to something. The change in the point-of-view could be a very telltale sign.

I'd never heard that Don only wrote one verse, and it seems to me the entertaining part is imagining the conversation between them before they actually said, 'hey, this could be a song.'

[Brooke]

I welcome everyone's opinion. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but we must allow everyone to have one! Hearing others makes me delve in to the subject a little bit more and think about it in a different way. Sometimes hearing someone's thoughts makes me completely change my mind, as in the Survivor games lately.

I love LE and must listen to it again to see if I can form an opinion on who wrote what! I hadn't thought about that before!

I'll be back! :wink:

[sodascouts]

I think everyone should feel free to express their opinions, but also should be prepared for their opinions to be examined and perhaps disagreed with.


I've always felt Henley had a great way of turning lyrics into pictures when he sings and really making it like a movie playing or a picture collage where you really can "see" what he's talking about and not just assume.

LE doesn't give me that kind of vibe like I get from HC or LITFL, TBH, but if there is any verse that does, it's that quoted one above.

I think he's a very "visual" lyricist. Where as to me Glenn is much better at singing/writing "feel good" songs (TIE, AG, PEF) or songs with a thought out story (LE, TS, NKIT) and more detail. Don's come out like movie scripts or something (LITFL for sure, even HC). Like taking you on a visual journey. Hard to explain - easy to see, for me at least. JMO. Maybe its more the way he sings it than writing, IDK.

OK, so this is your opinion. Let's examine the assumptions you're basing your opinion on.

Your opinion is based on the fact that you feel a certain way - get a certain "vibe" - from lyrics you believe Don has written, and that this "vibe" is different from the one you get off of lyrics you believe Glenn has written. However, half of your examples of the "feel good" songs you say Glenn is so good at writing are actually songs that he didn't write (he wrote one line of "Take It Easy"; "Already Gone" and "Peaceful Easy Feeling" were written by other people). That kind of fundamental mistake considerably weakens the argument that you can accurately distinguish between Glenn's or Don's writing styles and the writing styles of others via a "vibe."

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong regarding Don writing that verse of "Lyin' Eyes" - that's impossible to determine. I am saying that perhaps you should re-examine the underlying assumptions that have led you to that opinion. Are they really logical? For instance, is it really logical to assume that because someone sings lead on a song, he is the major lyrical contributor? I think TIE, AG, and PEF answer that question.

I don't say this as a Glenn fan trying to defend him; I don't believe you were trying to insult Glenn. I say this is a critical thinker who believes opinions should be supported by facts and logic. Even speculation needs to have an accurate basis. If you can support your opinion with facts and logic, you're golden! If you can't, don't be surprised if people question your opinion.


To say Glenn's songs are not 'visual' - how many examples do you want? Tequila Sunrise, It's Your World Now, Smuggler's Blues, You Belong To The City, River Of Dreams, Long Hot Summer, After Hours. And you can be just as 'visual' in evoking feelings in a song like You Are Not Alone as you can writing lyrics which play like a 'movie script'. Not all songs have to 'tell a story'. In any case you then say he writes songs which have 'more detail' and a 'thought out story' which appears to contradict your statement that his songs aren't 'visual'.

Well, since Jack Tempchin is a co-writer of most of these songs and we don't know who wrote what, it's hard to make a solid case that all of these reflect Glenn's lyrical style (see my reply to Austin above). In that sense, your argument is also problematic except as it pertains to "You Are Not Alone."

Finally, I would add that I hope everyone understands that intelligent debate is not the same as an attack. If someone disagrees with you and has fact-based reasonable arguments, I don't see a problem. The only problem is when there is personal invective involved - that's a no-no.

I certainly have had some of my arguments shot down before. My reaction to that isn't to get hurt that someone found weaknesses in my argument; my reaction is to make sure my next argument doesn't have those weaknesses.