Felder's "Heaven and Hell" Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

TxBluesMan

09-09-2009, 01:32 AM

Don Felder is in my top 5 of all time favorite guitarists behind, BB King, SRV, Clapton and Santana. When I first heard of his firing from the band and preliminary info that the reason why was because he had a dispute regarding a new Eagles company being setup which would be controlled by Henley and Frey and would exclude him, I was pretty upset and decided right then and there to boycott anything by The Eagles that didn't include Felder.

Today I finished reading Felder's book and my opinion of Henley and Frey is even lower now than it was then. Regarding Hotel California and who wrote it, if Felder hadn't written the music (which no one disputes), there would be no Hotel California. Henley/Frey added lyrics but wouldn't have had the concept without the music.

Here's the main problem I have with Henley/Frey:

1. When they first started the band in ‘71/72 it was an equal partnership with all 4 members having equal shares there were to be no sidemen and every member was assured that they would have an equal contribution to recordings. When Felder joined in ‘74, he was also given shares in Eagles Ltd (the partnership) so the split went 5 ways (equal shares) except for recordings made before Felder joined the band. When Leadon and Meisner quit, they surrendered their shares making the partnership a 3 way split. Walsh and Schmit were never made partners in Eagles Ltd when they joined the band. When the band split up in 1980, or as Frey put it "we never broke up, we just took a 14 year vacation," Eagles Ltd was not dissolved; therefore, all the agreements originally made remained in effect.

2. When the band got back together in 1994, Henley and Frey decided they should get a bigger piece of the pie despite the fact that with the exception of a few new songs which Henly and Frey wrote with other people, they weren't bringing anything new to the party. In his book, Felder speculates that "the Gods" decided they were worth more because they had had more success in their solo careers (though nowhere near as successful as the Eagles), but this should have had nothing to do with their roles as Eagles; people weren't going to be coming out to see Eagles concerts or buy their music because of any success Henley and/or Frey had in their solo careers. In any case, in order to make the reunion happen Felder was forced to sign a new agreement that gave Henley and Frey twice as much in earnings as any of the other Eagles, or else as in 1990, the reunion would not have happened. Instead of the original intent to have "no sidemen," this agreement effectively relegated Felder, a full partner in Eagles Ltd, to the role of a sideman along with Walsh and Schmit.

3. There was a clear conflict of interest regarding Irving Azoff. It's clear that Azoff put Henley's and Frey's interests ahead of Felder’s. Clearly, this was a mistake on Felder's part to let this go on, but being a musician and not a businessman, he trusted the person who said he was going to look out for him.

4. In 2000, Henley and Frey created a new company which would make them the sole beneficiaries of a new box set that was to be put out, gave them sole voting control and ownership of the company, and would increase their earnings to 3 times that of the other members of the band. Once again, they had not written any new material so why should they be given such an exorbitant increase in pay over that of the other band members, and particularly over Felder who was still a co-owner of the Eagles brand? It was Felder’s insistence on getting an accounting of what was going on (which he was entitled to under their contract) that instigated his firing. I presume Henley and Frey did this in order to keep their shady business dealings from coming to light and had nothing to do with creative differences; I’m certain that this is also why the settlement was sealed.

It’s clear to me that Henley and Frey let their egos grow to such an extent that they thought it would be OK for them to act as they did because Glen was the “leader,” although he was never voted into that position, and according to Glen it was “his” band. According to their original contract the band belonged to Henley Frey and Felder. For someone to say that because it was an agreement from the 70’s and thus shouldn’t have any force or effect is ridiculous since the equal partnership of Eagles Ltd was never dissolved. This is why Henley and Frey set up new companies, so that they could get around that original agreement. Sure Walsh and Schmit agreed to play ball, they were never owners in the band to begin with, so they had nothing to lose, they were just happy to get paid.

Steuart Smith is a talented guitarist, the way he can use his index finger to do a pinch harmonic is nothing short of amazing, but he’s no Don Felder. To me, The Eagles just aren’t The Eagles without Felder, so I won’t have anything to do with them unless they were to bring Felder back which would truly be a Hell Freezes Over moment.

sodascouts

09-09-2009, 04:00 AM

Welcome, TxBluesMan, I grew up in Texas myself - Beaumont, which joins with Port Arthur and Orange to form the self-proclaimed Golden Triangle of Texas. ;)

As a Felder fan, it's quite understandable that you'd be upset by his dismissal and, after reading his book, have very negative opinions of Frey and Henley. Certainly, Felder does!

I can't argue with your assessment of Azoff's behavior, but why is that a problem with Frey and Henley?

I also want to note that as a child of the eighties, I knew who Glenn Frey and Don Henley were from their hits during that decade. I did not know they were former Eagles until I saw an ad for Hell Freezes Over on TV. I watched the special because I knew who they were, not who the Eagles were. Many people around my age had similar experiences and went to see the Eagles because they were fans of the solo work of one of its members.

My main argument is, and always has been, that Felder went into the 1994 deal with his eyes open. You say "forced" - but he had a choice. No one held a gun to his head. What they did hold was the promise of millions of dollars, more than he could ever dream of making on his own, if he signed on the dotted line.

Of course Felder resented his "demotion." Of course he thought they were being unfair. Of course he saw them as overstepping, overreaching, egotistical, selfish, ruthless, unfeeling, disloyal, bullying, greedy douchebags. But... he found their terms acceptable enough to sign that contract. He got into bed with them. That is inarguable.

Now Felder says that the contract he signed in 1994 was unethical. Why did he sign it, then? Either he thought it was ethical at that time and later changed his mind (by his own admission not the case), or he traded his principles for money.

So why do we call Frey and Henley unprincipled and greedy, but praise a man who signed a contract he found unethical because it was in his monetary interest to do so? Pretending Felder had no choice allows his fans to absolve him from the guilt of selling out, but Felder has to take responsibility for his own choices. This is my main problem with him. I don't believe he's a bad person by any means - I've met Felder and he seems quite nice - but I do believe he has a tendency to play the victim and to blame others for "forcing" poor choices on his part. (Another example: he had no choice but to sleep with groupies... Frey and Henley were peer-pressuring him... no man could resist... etc., etc.)

At any rate, in the late nineties, Frey and Henley decided to change the deal again. Again, Felder had a choice: go along with it or turn it down. Felder's problem was that he didn't want to leave, but he didn't want to sign the contract either. His approach: pressure Frey and Henley into changing the new deal so that the terms were more favorable to himself. That pressuring involved lawyers and demands for accounting, but it didn't work. So, they reached a stalemate. They could not move forward with the box set, with future tours, with future albums, with anything until an agreement was reached. They needed Felder to make a decision, but instead he sent them lawyer's letters... so they made the decision for him.

Immediately, Felder backpedaled and tried to get back in on the deal on any terms they were willing to offer. He actually begged... but they refused. He was begging to be able to sign a contract that he found unethical. How ironic - he was upset that they did not allow him to sign the contract which had upset him in the first place.

You accuse Frey and Henley of "shady" practices and seem to imply that they were violating the law (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case, why would Felder accept a settlement? If Felder were confident of winning, he would have taken Frey and Henley to the cleaners. Felder obviously wasn't confident of winning... why? Perhaps because he knew in his heart that their dealings were not illegal, even if he considered them unethical.

(You throw a lot of numbers around in Point 4 that I don't remember hearing about. Were these in Felder's book? I don't remember seeing them.)

I am truly sorry this has turned you off of the Eagles. Long Road Out of Eden is a good album. I wish you could look past personalities and just appreciate the music on its own merit, but I understand how a feeling of loyalty to Felder - and perhaps a desire to punish those who you feel wronged him - would keep you from doing so. Obviously, that is your choice.

I can see where you're coming from, and I hope you can see where I'm coming from too. We are both working from assumptions and speculations based on our preconceived notions and personal experience, and neither of us knows what really went down. I'm sure neither of us is 100% right... and I'm sure neither Frey, Henley nor Felder was 100% in the right either.

TxBluesMan

09-09-2009, 10:38 AM

Hi sodascouts, thanks for your reply.

Being a child of the 60's/70's I remember listening to The Eagles from the beginning and as a budding guitar player, I remember how much better I thought they sounded when Felder joined the band.

Questioning why Felder would agree to anything that put him at a disadvantage as in the 1994 and 2000 contracts is a valid question. I think Felder's analogy to battered wife syndrome is understandable. Why do women stay with men that mistreat them when they could leave at any time? Simply, Felder was addicted to the band. The band represented the pinnacle of his (and all the other Eagles as well) career and allowed him to do what he always loved doing, playing music. That's why when faced with dismissal, like a junky getting cut off from his pusher, he begged and pleaded and offered to do anything to keep getting his musical fix. Once he had "detoxed" from the band and that situation, he decided he it was time to throw open the window and shout "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" Personally, I would have told Henley and Frey to shove it, especially if I had already made enough money to live on for the rest of my life.

The problem I have with Henley/Frey Re Azoff is that they used their relationship with him as the personal manager of their solo careers to make deals that only benefited themselves in The Eagles. I guess Azoff decided it was better to make money from 3 revenue streams (The Eagles and Henley/Frey individually as solo artists) than just one. If Felder had had his own manager, he probably would have come out a lot better. As it was, he was given bad advice and assurances that he would be taken care of when that wasn't the truth.

When I said that Henley/Frey were engaged in "shady" business dealings, I didn't mean to imply that they were doing anything illegal per se, but it was definitely unethical and hypocritical. Henley/Frey vilolated the prime directive of their founding principles which were that all members of the band were equal, there were no sidemen. But they let their success go to their head to the point where they decided that they were more equal than the rest of the band. And here Henley was trying hold himself out as an advocate and spokesman for recording artists' rights when he himself, along with Frey, was doing to Felder, Walsh and Schmit the very thing he was speaking out against.

In regards to the figure I quoted of Henley/Felder getting 3 times the money from the Selected Works 72-99 boxset, that wasn't actually in the book. I got that from: http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/wiki/index.php/The_Eagles under "Don Felder Goes to Court."

In my opinion, Henley and Frey are unethical hypocrites, pure and simple and I refuse to let them profit off me any further.

TxBluesMan

09-09-2009, 11:00 AM

And one more thing:

I had read in one of the previous posts that Felder must have had a weak case, or else why would he have settled. I believe the book makes clear that he was going to seek a settlement to begin with. Felder said that he expected that Henley/Frey would fight it at first (like countersuing for breach of contract because of Felder's book), but then would fold and settle. Felder was only out for what was fair, he wasn't looking to hurt Henley/Frey personally or the band as a group. Most accounts that I have found on the web indicate that Felder was given a substantial settlement, possibly in the $20-30 million range, and obviously the countersuit went nowhere or else the book would have never been published.

Whether or not he sold his rights to royalties for the recordings he played on, since the settlement is sealed we'll never know, but for me to sign over royalties to a song like Hotel California, the money would have to be equal to or greater than what I would expect to receive over the course of say the next 20 years in order for me to make that deal.

And speaking of Hotel California, if you look at the original Hotel California album, you'll see that on the credit line for the Hotel California song, Felder's name comes first because the practice was to give first credit to the person who contributed the most to the recording. In this case, Felder's contribution of the music outweighs (in terms of quantity) Henley/Frey's contribution of the lyrics. But if you look at Hell Freezes Over, Felder's name comes last. Not only is this unfair because of his contribution to the original recording, but Felder had to write the acoustic guitar parts for the acoustic version on Hell Freezes Over with just 1 day's notice. He brought entirely new music to this song while Henley/Frey gave nothing new and yet they somehow managed to hog the credit.

sodascouts

09-09-2009, 01:49 PM

Your comparison of Felder to an addict is interesting. It does make sense, especially for the 2000 contract. It doesn't make quite as much sense for 1994 since had been without the "fix" for quite a while, but perhaps an addict never stops craving, eh?

It's true that post-1994, the idea of equal shares was thrown out the window. Whether that's from oversized egos or a recognition of the fact that they were doing more work and therefore deserved more money is a matter of opinion. I must say there are very few businesses that pay those who do less work the same amount as those who do more.

It's interesting to note that the "everybody is equal" approach of the original Eagles was for four men who were all singing lead, writing music, and writing lyrics as well as playing instruments. That was not the case with Felder. He came in later and did not contribute as much. No one can debate Felder's genius on the guitar and that he has co-written some rockin' music including, of course, the Eagles' signature song. However, an assessment of the body of work of the Eagles shows that for the majority of the hits, his name was not attached. Therefore, I think it's accurate to say he did not contribute as much and the Eagles' new monetary arrangement was meant to reflect that.

I think the sticking point for a lot of people is that they believe Frey and Henley should have overlooked the fact that they were doing more and kept it equal for old time's sake. However, we have to remember that these men were not friends. The relationship between Frey and Felder was bad back in the seventies and a fight between them was the last straw that led to the breakup of the band. Why should they do Felder any favors when they didn't even like him? I know that's unromantic and sounds harsh, but they weren't a "band of brothers" even in the late seventies, much less in the nineties. Keeping things equal monetarily regardless of the level of contribution is the kind of move you make if you feel close to your bandmate... and they didn't. I daresay the feeling was mutual.

I can see why you would argue that if Henley fought for the rights of artists he didn't even know, why wouldn't he do the same for Felder? I guess because here, he was fighting for his OWN rights as an artist - more pay for more work!

Thanks for the link. I think we should get some confirmation of these numbers from a reliable source before buying into them though - user-edited wikis are notorious for providing misinformation and being riddled with errors.

Felder claims he just wanted to settle all along, but it took a LONG time for that case to be settled because the Eagles weren't offering enough money to Felder. One can sell rights to a song without suing... but if he had simply sold the rights to the song, he wouldn't have gotten as much. (If he did indeed sell the rights, which I think would be foolish - but what do I know?)

I remember reading that Felder's high demands were meant to be "in an amount sufficient to punish" - ie, he didn't just want the amount of money he felt he deserved, he wanted the amount of money that he felt would make them sorry.

Re: the change in the order of names - that does sound petty and inappropriate considering the order was different on the album (assuming it was done at Frey and Henley's behest, which we don't know). However, it didn't change the amount of money he gets from it! It seems he has stored up every petty wrong done against him in his heart and let it fester. I remember many of the wrongs he complained about in his book were nothing more than mean things that were said to him 30+ years ago. That's petty in itself, if you ask me.

sodascouts

09-09-2009, 02:04 PM

Found the article I was thinking of about Felder's demands - it was written when news of the lawsuit broke in 2001. From Yahoo News:

Don Felder Seeking More than $200 Million for Firing (http://new.music.yahoo.com/eagles/news/don-felder-seeking-more-than-200-million-for-artist-name-eagles-id-1008023-firing--12026499)

Ive always been a dreamer

09-09-2009, 02:37 PM

First of all, welcome to the Border, TRM. I hope you will stick around, but be warned that this place seems to be reeking with hardcore Eagles fans. :lol: Now, that is, obviously, a joke, and we really do try to be welcoming here.

I see that you have read through this thread, so in responding to you, it’s a bit difficult not to rehash things that have been repeatedly discussed, but I’ll do my best.

Without trying to put words in your mouth, your main point seems to be that you think Glenn Frey and Don Henley are unethical, hypocritical, egotistical, greedy, power mongers. What I don’t understand about this point-of-view, is why do you give Felder a pass? Why you don’t put him in the same category is beyond my little brain’s comprehension. The complaint is always that Frey and Henley wanted a larger piece of the pie as time went on, which is true. Those who think that is wrong always argue that this was unfair and undeserving. All I can say is that while everyone acknowledges that the original intent was that the band would be totally democratic, there is no denying that this changed over the years. Honestly, I don’t see how anyone can suggest that other band members contributed equally to the band success. I’m sorry, but the facts just don’t bear that out as Soda said in her post. The bottom line is that Frey and Henley became the most valuable stars of the band because they contributed more in terms of songwriting, singing, arranging, managing, etc., etc., etc. Since Glenn initiated the band and was the original front man, I guess he just naturally became the leader, Every member of the band accepts that, including Henley, so I’m not sure what the complaint is here.

Personally, I would have told Henley and Frey to shove it, especially if I had already made enough money to live on for the rest of my life.

To me, that’s exactly what Felder should have done if he were as unhappy as he claims to have been. I definitely would have respected that decision. Instead he chose to stay until he was forced out. In hindsight, he portrays himself as a victim that was forced to behave the way he did. Now, if that’s not hypocrisy, I’m not sure what is.

However, in truth, I don't think we fans will probably ever see eye-to-eye on these issues. The best that we can hope for is that everyone can acknowledge that there was fault on all sides, and that none of them were 100% right or 100% wrong.

luvthelighthouse

09-09-2009, 03:47 PM

I have really appreciated reading the posts of today. It's very easy for me to see both sides of the coin. Of course none of us will ever know the real truth. All we can do is speculate from the information given to us.

Now, I've stated this before. Felder should have named the book Poor Poor Millionaire Rockstar Victim. I do not think that anyone disputes Felder's talent. I think the majority of fans enjoyed his contributions, self included. However, as far as his book goes... well, IMO, he plays the victim better than anyone. I'm sorry, but I do not believe him to be as naive has he pretended to be. I would have preferred if he owned his own behaviors instead of making excuses for them. I trail from the current discussion though.

Personally, and this is just MY opinion, so take if for what it's worth, certainly not gold. I believe in the beginning there was a mutual respect for the music between Frey, Henley and Felder. As time went on, I believe personalities and egos began playing bigger parts than the music. At some point, I think the three guys just began tolerating each other. Let's face it, not all people mesh.

I honestly believe that Frey/Henley had a solid friendship, so the years apart didn't seem so vast when they reunited. Their foundation was laid and it was easy to pick up from a good place. I do not believe that was the case with Felder. Frey/Henley didn't have that relationship w/Felder and they never would. So Frey/Henley banded together and Felder was the outsider. This is not good or bad, just what is was. My guess is that after the 14 year hiatus, F/H didn't really wish to continue the same contractual agreement they once had and that's when things became ugly. Up to this point, I see no "issues". However, I feel that the behaviors of Frey/Henley and Azoff have something to be desired. As it is very well known around here, I am huge fan of the guys and their music, but I really think the whole Felder situation could have been handled better. I would have liked for F/H to have sit down w/Felder and explain that they were creating a new company and it would no longer be equal. I guess I'm saying, honesty would have been best, even if Felder didn't like it. It would have been easy to state the case that after 14 years, things had changed. At that point, Felder may (or may not) have been more receptive, if they had been open with him. I'm sure he realized that he wasn't making it as solo act like the other two. Also, it's not like he only stood to make 200k a year, which many of us here on the board would love to make! Yes, I believe Felder was screwed over to an extent, BUT, I do not think he was innocent or the victim he plays. I think he had his share of wrong doings as well. His book is evidence, IMO, of the way he plays the martyr. I think there was greed from all four parts. Frey, Henley, Felder and especially Azoff.

From some past interview, and I’m sorry I can’t recall where I read it… Timothy stated that Glenn wanted him to have equal shares, not with songwriting credits, but off of merchandising and concerts. Now, if this is incorrect, someone please speak up. That is why Timothy can still make millions being an Eagle, even if his songwriting credits are minimal. Probably the reason Walsh doesn’t complain either. They are still making money w/out being equal parts in the corporate name. Yes, I know that was not the deal made with Felder… but again, this is where I feel F/H should have spoken up in 1994 and made changes.

On a last note, I want to believe that Felder did not sign away his royalties to HC, because IMO, that would be just plain wrong on his part!

TxBluesMan

09-09-2009, 03:52 PM

Perhaps the reason Henley and Frey's names appear on the majority of the work is because they were the gatekeepers as to what went on the albums. I know Felder and probably the others submitted a lot of work that they (Henley/Frey) didn't deem up to their standards, although, they didn't cast such a critical eye on their own work. And remember that for each song that was written during his tenure, Felder was involved in working out the guitar parts and solos even though he wasn't given credit (pretty sure Frey isn't technically profficient enough to have written those parts himself) as opposed to Frey's "change a word, get a third" method. Every member of that band brought something to the table that made the band special and contributed to its success, not just the fact that Henley is a gifted lyricist/singer and Frey has a half-way decent voice. Like Lennon/McCartney, we'll probably never know just how much Frey contributed lyrically. So I don't buy an argument that says Henley and Frey were worth more just because their names appear on more songs than anyone else.

The fact that Henley and Frey hated each other at various times doesn't negate the fact that they realized that by joining forces against their own bandmates, they could get a whole lot richer a whole lot quicker. The 2000 contract related to the Selected Works 72-79 is a perfect example. The company created to handle the boxed set was to be solely owned by Henley and Frey despite the fact that all the other guys in the band had a whole lot to do with the work that was done during that period of time and that's not even including Meisner and Leadon who made significant contributions to the recordings made during the early days of the band.

As for the $200 Million dollar figure, that's the first time I've heard of that. I'd always heard that his suit was for $50 Million, but you know how bargaining goes, the first offer is always going to be higher than what you really want. As far as the case taking so long to be settled, that was a matter of court scheduling and not foot dragging by Felder. Felder states in his book that in 2001 they were given a court date for 2006. It wasn't until sometime after Felder's deposition that Henley and Frey folded and settled. And no one (none of the parties involved) would disagree that Felder came out way ahead in this settlement, which he wouldn't have if his case didn't have merit. That's probably why Henley/Frey had the settlement sealed, they didn't want the specifics of their dirty dealing being made public and they paid Felder enough so that he wouldn't disclose anything either. I was hoping to get some more details on the settlement in his book, but obviously Felder toed the line on nondisclosure.

Was the 3X figure on the link I submitted correct or not? Without being able to look at the contract, it would be very hard to determine. But based on the fact that Henly/Frey's previous contract gave them each 2/7 as opposed to the 1/7 for everyone else (per the book), it isn't inconceivable that with the 2000 contract they'd try to take an even bigger piece of the pie.

It's interesting that Henley and Frey tired to stop Felder's book from coming out by claiming breech of contract and not libel. That's a pretty clear indication that what Felder wrote was true.

Whether or not Felder's conduct was hypocritical is debatable. The way I see it he was the go along to get along kind of guy and tried to maintain peace among the various factions and swallowed a lot of crap in his desire to keep performing the music he loved (with musicians of his caliber it's always about the music first, the money is just a nice side benefit), but they just pushed him a little too far. There are just those kinds of people that repress their anger over wrongs committed against them until they eventually explode and I think that's what happend with Felder. Was Felder's writing about every little slight petty? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think we would have gotten as accurate an indication of what kind of guys Henley and Frey were without those anecdotes.

If in the bussiness world a partnership would collapse just because one of the partners wanted a look at the books, there probably wouldn't be many companys that would last long. Some people think it was petty of Felder to get his attorney involved in 2000, but when your partners and your own manager keep stalling and denying you your right to review the company's finances, what else are you supposed to do?

I know I lay a lot of the blame at Henley and Frey's feet, but I'd really like to know to what extent Azoff played those parties against each other and manipulated them for his own financial benefit. Obviously he wouldn't do anything to upset Henley and Frey because Azoff benefited from their solo efforts; whereas with Felder, if he was fired there would still be an Eagles band in his stable. So it makes sense that Azoff negotiated against Felder's interests, but Felder should have recognized the conflict of interest and acted accordingly.

Ive always been a dreamer

09-09-2009, 07:23 PM

LTL that was a great post and I agree with almost everything you said except for this …

I would have liked for F/H to have sit down w/Felder and explain that they were creating a new company and it would no longer be equal. I guess I'm saying, honesty would have been best, even if Felder didn't like it. It would have been easy to state the case that after 14 years, things had changed. At that point, Felder may (or may not) have been more receptive, if they had been open with him.

I don’t know if you intended this or not but it sounds as if you think Frey and Henley were not forthcoming about the ’94 agreement. However, even Felder says that there was full disclosure and that he was fully aware of the terms. Now, I don’t know of any other details about exactly how Felder was approached, and this is JMHO, but I doubt that it really would have made any difference in the level of his satisfaction with the agreement in the long run.

TBM, I’d also like to respond to several points that you made in your last post. Again, much of this is a rehash of things that have been previously mentioned in this thread, but I feel some of your points need to be challenged. I'm not trying to nitpick - this is all in the spirit of good debate, of course. :wink:

So I don't buy an argument that says Henley and Frey were worth more just because their names appear on more songs than anyone else.

I don’t think this is the only argument being made to support the fact that Henley and Frey are much more valuable to the band than the other members. I would say that if you don’t believe that, then any attempt to convince you is feudal. I would only point to the fact that the Eagles ticket sales have suffered very little due to the loss of Felder, whereas, if they lost Frey or Henley, the band would cease to exist. And your assessment of Frey’s “half-way decent voice” is very subjective. Many people are of the opinion that his voice is incredibly versatile and unique, and just so happens to be a huge part of the band’s success.

As for the $200 Million dollar figure, that's the first time I've heard of that. I'd always heard that his suit was for $50 Million, but you know how bargaining goes, the first offer is always going to be higher than what you really want. As far as the case taking so long to be settled, that was a matter of court scheduling and not foot dragging by Felder. Felder states in his book that in 2001 they were given a court date for 2006.
It wasn't until sometime after Felder's deposition that Henley and Frey folded and settled. And no one (none of the parties involved) would disagree that Felder came out way ahead in this settlement, which he wouldn't have if his case didn't have merit. That's probably why Henley/Frey had the settlement sealed, they didn't want the specifics of their dirty dealing being made public and they paid Felder enough so that he wouldn't disclose anything either. I was hoping to get some more details on the settlement in his book, but obviously Felder toed the line on nondisclosure.

How did you draw the conclusion that “Henley and Frey folded and settled"? Whenever there is a settlement of this kind, generally it is a mutual agreement where neither party admits guilt. The reason that parties usually settle is because there is no clear winner. I would also be very reluctant to assume that it was Henley and Frey that had the settlement sealed. That is usually standard practice in high profile cases. Also, it seems to me that it is difficult to declare victory when you initially ask for $200 million and end up settling for $20-$30 million. But that is very debatable and the only reason this even came up was because you stated that Felder was not trying to hurt them – just wanted to get his due. That was clearly not the case.

Whether or not Felder's conduct was hypocritical is debatable.

I agree, but wouldn’t the same be true for Glenn Frey and Don Henley? What I don’t get about many of Felder’s supporters is that they are eager to assert that Frey and Henley are unethical, hypocritical, egotistical, greedy, power mongers, but then fail to acknowledge that Felder may have these same traits. I always thought that we should presume some culpability for all parties involved. Anyone who reads his book utilizing objective, critical thinking skills can pick out numerous times when Felder contradicts himself or is inconsistent in his recollections. I won’t bother to repeat them since there has already been much discussion in this thread about them.

But I don't think we would have gotten as accurate an indication of what kind of guys Henley and Frey were without those anecdotes.

See comments above. Again, why do we assume that everything Felder says is accurate, and that Henley and Frey are 100% the bad guys. Felder’s versions of events seem to be accepted as gospel truth with no accounting for the possibility of bias on his part.

MikeA

09-10-2009, 11:29 AM

I'm not a fan of Frey outside of the Eagles...nor of Don Henley either outside of the Eagles. The same goes for TBS and Felder. Walsh, well, I'll go out of my comfort zone to see him perform, ESPECIALLY as a solo act. This is nothing new to anyone who has read any of my posts on the subject so I think that the statement I'm going to make is pretty objective.

Henley and Frey together formed a musical genius. Frey's contribution was in composition and marketing. Henley's was in lyrics and vocals. They both excelled in their areas of talent though neither was an exceptional instrumentalist although Glenn was more adept than was Henley according to what I know of the two. They worked from the beginning as a team but could not achieve what they were after as a Duo. They needed a band to complete their goals.

The point is that while Glenn Frey may not be the vocal prodigy that Henley is, he had an equal talent in that which Henley lacked and he did not have a BAD vocal. Together they were incomparable. When it came to lyrics, Frey was the spark that ignited the fire that Henley kindled. But it was Glenn who arranged the songs and was probably because of that, the force that caused the band to be known for all the harmonies they became known for.

With some exceptions, what the "other guys" (including my own hero, Joe Walsh) did was execute what Glenn and Don conceived.

From that epiphany, I would not have had issue if Glenn and Don had let Eagles LTD stay dormant with ownership split equally between the three owners and had started a new band/company consisting of Frey, Henley, Schmit, Walsh and Smith and called themselves the "Buzzards" or anything other than the "Eagles" and left Felder out of the picture <LOL>.

luvthelighthouse

09-10-2009, 11:54 AM

Mike, I will admit, I’m a band girl. I enjoy certain chemistries that can only be obtained in a band format. I know some solo acts use the same band member all the time, but often they change. I like to know a band and the members and take notice of each of their strengths. I agree whole heartedly about what you said about F/H.

I am all about the Eagles, but not so much about the solo efforts. Now, there are the occasional songs I like by F/H as solo acts, but for the most part, I want the Eagles. No, not the Buzzards! LoL

I really feel there were a lot of missed opportunities to handle dissolving the initial company and recreating a new company at the resumption in the mid 90’s. I’m sure in hindsight, things are clearer to all… in the end though, nothing changes. Felder is out and won’t be back. The Eagles will go on as they always have, just as long as Glenn and Don are in the band together. It has been proven by the different incarnations of the band that Glenn and Don are the brick and mortar…

Freypower

09-10-2009, 07:47 PM

Henley and Frey together formed a musical genius. Frey's contribution was in composition and marketing. Henley's was in lyrics and vocals. They both excelled in their areas of talent though neither was an exceptional instrumentalist although Glenn was more adept than was Henley according to what I know of the two. They worked from the beginning as a team but could not achieve what they were after as a Duo. They needed a band to complete their goals.

The point is that while Glenn Frey may not be the vocal prodigy that Henley is, he had an equal talent in that which Henley lacked and he did not have a BAD vocal. Together they were incomparable. When it came to lyrics, Frey was the spark that ignited the fire that Henley kindled. But it was Glenn who arranged the songs and was probably because of that, the force that caused the band to be known for all the harmonies they became known for.

Mike, I am afraid I have to take issue with your comments about Frey. 'Composition and MARKETING'? Do you think that is all he is? A clever businessman?

Regarding your comments on Frey's vocals, in my opinion Frey IS the 'vocal prodigy' that Henley is. Just because his singing is smoother doesn't lessen his ability. He is capable of singing with the same depth and passion as Henley. You say 'he did not have a BAD vocal'. That is damning with faint praise in its essence. I don't expect you or anyone else to think Frey's voice is as good as I do, but please, let's be fair to the man.

Ive always been a dreamer

09-11-2009, 01:11 PM

The thing about this is that what makes a good singer is so subjective. I'm sure there are some criteria out there somewhere to help us judge what makes someone 'technically' a good singer. I know this much - Don Henley, Glenn Frey, and Don Felder are all much better singers than I am. How do I know this - only because my ears tell me. Most of us just know whether someone can sing or not without having to go through a lot of analytical evaluation.

But, when you have 5 or 10 people that the majority of people would agree are good singers, how do you rate them then? What makes one of them better than the others? As I said before, there are probably some technical vocal factors that can be used to judge this, but to a large degree, it is mostly subjective. Each of us have our own reasons for liking one singer better than another. I'm one of those that absolutely loves to hear both Don Henley and Glenn Frey sing, but if forced to chose one to listen to over the other, I prefer Glenn's voice. Why? For me, Glenn's voice is more versatile - for example, listen to How Long and What Do I Do With My Heart. For many people who don't know the difference, they would never guess that it is the same person singing those two songs. I also love the more mellow, vulnerable quality of Glenn's voice. I could just listen to it for hours on end whereas I prefer taking Henley in smaller doses. Now, again - this is just me, and I am in no way dissing Henley when I say this - as I said before, I LOVE his voice. I also know that there are others for who the exact opposite is true. They would say what makes Henley's voice so special is because most all of his songs are so uniquely and unmistakenly Henley and that they can listen to him for hours on end. So to me, who is the better singer all comes down to personal preference, plain and simple.

ETA: And for the record, since this is Felder's thread, let me include him here. I am sure that there are some folks out there that believe Felder is just as strong of a vocalist as Henley or Frey. If that's how they feel, then I certainly respect their opinion without agreeing with it.

bernie's bender

09-11-2009, 04:34 PM

Having read the book. it is the book you write when you are at a crossroads in your life and feel lost and alone and stuck.

It brings gladness that the others have not (to date) said too much about Don's book, talking about those things would diminish them in the same way that folks talk about their divorces in catty and petty ways.

Don't have a favorite Eagle... love their music though and it brought me a great deal of happiness and solace over the years.

Don's perspective is just that... he isn't omniscient and there are some parts that any of us can read and say... hmmm.

When Bernie, who arguably dealt Don some very favorable cards at no personal gain (beyond true friendship and love) was jettisoned... Don did nothing. Randy, is the same case. Granted, there are personalities involved and in reading that section, reasonable people could conclude... maybe there was nothing to be said or done.. they were all adults making adult decisions.

Don's subsequent turn in the 'exit' seat finds him disappointed in Joe and Timmy even though they did nothing different than Don had done earlier.

The irony is that when Bernie and Randy reuinite with Don... B&R greet Don with open arms even though they could be perceived as the aggrieved.

Don has a long history of leaving and not keeping up and staying in touch except when it is to his benefit. His parents, brother, wife etc etc... he had a life of the luxury of always being the one who leaves. The one time he gets left... we end up with a book.

He is kind of the poster child for the me generation. The theme is repeated time and again in the book (unwittingly?)

The Eagles music is just a treasure. The politics and inner workings of a band are never as beautiful. Don's frequent comments about how well other bands get along (like Chicago) are hilariously myopic and as uninformed as the casual fan (and this from Jimmy Pankow's friend!)

Bands are complicated animals. Great bands filled with great talent will have an equal measure of other challenges in the same measure... Ask Stan Lynch!

Having played in bands for 30 plus years... it is always hard and complicated and all bands 'break up'... it is just the nature of it... for Don to have had such a long run with such a great band... it is good that he tipped his hat at the hall of fame induction to Glenn and Don...

MikeA

09-11-2009, 05:15 PM

Gosh FreyPower....I wasn't trying to run down Glenn as a musician. Both Glenn and Don have extreme vocal ranges. Their talents compliment each others so well that the sum of the parts is greater than the individual talent each has.

I'll probably get into deeper water here without intending to. Seems like I did that with the other post without intending to offend anyone. I've always thought it sort of ironic that Don Henley had a bent more toward "country" than did Glenn but that Don's voice seemed to me more suited to Rock...you know...sort of gravely without losing any of that range. Glenn on the other hand, seemed to me to have more of a Rock/Detroit background and trend but had a voice more suited to country. Again, that is just observation and thusly, opinion.

I can't help my bias toward Don when it comes to vocals. I do think he has a voice that is amazing. Neither can I change the bias toward Glenn when it comes to arranging music. Do ALL I think Glenn was is a smart business man? HELL NO. But he did have a way of "arranging" the business end of the Eagles in the early years and I'm quite sure throughout the history of the Eagles than did anyone else, especially before Azoff....and if the truth could be known, I expect that Glenn is very much still in control of the business end of the Eagles.

At any rate, the intent was to point out that Glenn and Don together really were the heart and soul of the musical success of the Eagles. Their abilities equally complimented the twosome's success in songwriting, arranging and performing. I was NOT trying to say that one of them was better than the other.

I wonder though, if you went back through the entire Eagles discography and listed out the songs Glenn carried vocally and those that Don carried vocally, and then looked at the popularity of each of those songs, I wonder who would have the most?

sodascouts

09-11-2009, 05:28 PM

BB, some very insightful comments about Felder's book - I hadn't thought of it quite like that before.

Mike - don't worry about offending - you're too nice of a guy for to offend anyone. ;) As Dreamer says, it's all subjective. I prefer Glenn's voice, but I understand not everyone does. Plus, I get your original intent as well.

As far as who had the most lead vocals that were hits, I think Dreamer did a list of that one time - am I right, Dreamer?

luvthelighthouse

09-11-2009, 05:33 PM

Don's subsequent turn in the 'exit' seat finds him disappointed in Joe and Timmy even though they did nothing different than Don had done earlier.

Don has a long history of leaving and not keeping up and staying in touch except when it is to his benefit. His parents, brother, wife etc etc... he had a life of the luxury of always being the one who leaves. The one time he gets left... we end up with a book.

He is kind of the poster child for the me generation. The them is repeated time and again in the book (unwittingly?)

These are great points! I loved your post!

Mike, what I took away from your earlier post was that Henley and Frey complement each other. Alone they are good, but together, they are great. That is what I was agreeing with. Their talents married are a thing of beauty!

Ive always been a dreamer

09-11-2009, 06:39 PM

First of all, Mike - I got what you were saying in your post as well, and don't worry about offending. I think that most of us around here are pretty open-minded and thick-skinned.

As far as who had the most lead vocals that were hits, I think Dreamer did a list of that one time - am I right, Dreamer?

Only partially, Soda. :wink: Actually, I was hoping to get a list together of what place all of the band's hits charted on Billboard, but haven't gotten around to doing it.

I do have a few facts - The band had five #1 Billboard singles in the '70's. Three have Henley as lead vocalist (Best of My Love, One of These Nights, and Hotel California) and two with Frey (New Kid In Town and Heartache Tonight).

The 2 greatest hits albums probably contain the most popular Eagles songs, and by extension is fairly reflective of the hits that charted, although not entirely. As I mentioned, I don't yet have the chart position for the songs, but the breakdown for the two albums is 7 Frey lead vocals, 9 Henley lead vocals, 1 Frey/Henley shared vocal, 1 Meisner lead vocal, 1 Schmit lead vocal, and 1 ensemble.

As far as the 6 Grammy’s that the band has won, the breakdown is 3 Frey lead vocals (Lyin' Eyes, New Kid In Town, Heartache Tonight), 1 Henley lead vocal (Hotel California), 1 Frey/Henley shared vocal (How Long), and 1 instrumental penned solely by Frey (I Dreamed There Was No War).

So there is hardly any evidence to suggest that either dominated the most popular Eagles songs. Even though Henley has a slight edge, Great Hits 1, which is by far their best-selling album, is dominated by Frey vocals. I think it's safe to say that Frey dominated in the early part of the '70's and Henley the latter part.

Freypower

09-11-2009, 06:41 PM

They would say what makes Henley's voice so special is because most all of his songs are so uniquely and unmistakenly Henley and that they can listen to him for hours on end. So to me, who is the better singer all comes down to personal preference, plain and simple.

Agreed.

I'll probably get into deeper water here without intending to. Seems like I did that with the other post without intending to offend anyone. I've always thought it sort of ironic that Don Henley had a bent more toward "country" than did Glenn but that Don's voice seemed to me more suited to Rock...you know...sort of gravely without losing any of that range. Glenn on the other hand, seemed to me to have more of a Rock/Detroit background and trend but had a voice more suited to country. Again, that is just observation and thusly, opinion.

I can't help my bias toward Don when it comes to vocals. I do think he has a voice that is amazing. Neither can I change the bias toward Glenn when it comes to arranging music. Do ALL I think Glenn was is a smart business man? HELL NO. But he did have a way of "arranging" the business end of the Eagles in the early years and I'm quite sure throughout the history of the Eagles than did anyone else, especially before Azoff....and if the truth could be known, I expect that Glenn is very much still in control of the business end of the Eagles.

At any rate, the intent was to point out that Glenn and Don together really were the heart and soul of the musical success of the Eagles. Their abilities equally complimented the twosome's success in songwriting, arranging and performing. I was NOT trying to say that one of them was better than the other.

Agreed. Mike, you didn't offend me and I am sorry if it came across that way. I love reading your posts and wish I could be as objective as you are.

AmarilloByMorning

09-11-2009, 07:43 PM

In general… I’m not entirely convinced Frey and Henley couldn’t have succeeded as a duo, supplemented by studio musicians. Despite my affinity for Schmidt and Walsh, Frey and Henley have either replaced or simply lobbed off every other band member without discernible ramifications. Duos really just “weren’t done” at the time of their initiation outside Simon & Garfunkel, and I don’t think Geffen knew how to market anything that would potentially deviate from the standard bleeding-heart solo composer or swingin’ conglomerate. Frey was told to build a band and did so; he and Henley have almost unparalleled synergy (*cough*and rivalry*cough*) that overpowers just about every other component of their band. And imagine “Hotel California” without the lyrics, which could stand alone as a poem – it would be another album track that Almost Hit, a beautiful melody meandering to nowhere. Add Henley/Frey and voila – synergy, and a hit. I do wish they would interact more onstage and indulge the Walsh wackiness or the Schmidt congeniality to a greater extent, but they seem to be doing all right...

Now, I've stated this before. Felder should have named the book Poor Poor Millionaire Rockstar Victim.

My sentiments, precisely! A particular favorite: chafing at Henley’s proffered lead guitarist position on his solo tour. How dare Henley offer him a salary comparable to that of “any other” lead guitarist, particularly considering their history of bad blood! All apologies, supposedly-battered rich guy - he could have left you to putter around your beautiful house and gripe at your wife. That round goes to Henley. Ding!

Re: the change in the order of names - that does sound petty and inappropriate considering the order was different on the album (assuming it was done at Frey and Henley's behest, which we don't know).

This seems mountain/molehill-esque, in light of both Henley and Frey’s vehement criticism of how little control they had over their album booklets over the years.

Regarding your comments on Frey's vocals, in my opinion Frey IS the 'vocal prodigy' that Henley is. Just because his singing is smoother doesn't lessen his ability.

With people falling all over themselves to praise Henley’s vocal prowess (Frey included) I always feel like the blue crayon in a pile of red ones. I much prefer Frey’s “smoother” voice – even as a Henley fan, I’m constantly thwarting the urge to clear my throat on his behalf and, regardless of Rolling Stone’s 100 Best list, have never considered him exemplary, simply excellent. Purely personal preference, but I think a lot of people simply respond to Henley’s innate emotive abilities, which receive continual display thanks to the material he composes/elects to sing. Frey certainly shines on tracks like “Tequila Sunrise” and “Heartache Tonight.” I’m not attempting to degrade Henley – I have purchased his solo material and enjoy his work. It simply galls me that Frey’s considered somehow inferior.

Felder’s book achieved the impossible for this fan, whose general opinion of the band had disintegrated to a few kernels beneath the dual onslaught of Hotel California and To the Limit: I closed the cover holding both Frey and Henley in considerably elevated esteem. I suspect neither of them has clean hands; but nobody in the music industry does, really. That’s why they’re still around in a business that eats tender hearts alive.

P.S. - For the record, soda - I managed to wait nine hours...

Maleah

09-12-2009, 01:20 AM

LOL! I would THWACK you if you cleared his throat! ;) I LOOOOVE the raspy/gritty sound in Don's voice. Ab-so-lute-ly LOVE it!

That being said, while Henley obviously is my preference vocally, Frey has a great voice as well. What I love about Glenn's voice is the peaceful, relaxing, calming effect of it. I love to listen to things like "Peaceful Easy Feeling" in the morning as I'm driving to work. Then again....I listen to "Life In The Fast Lane" when I get off of work. ;) ha

I do agree with the point made about Don's voice seeming more fitted for a rock sound and Glenn's for the country side. That was my first impression upon hearing both of their voices the first time.

*ETA: Not that the you clearing his throat part makes sense.....but you know what I mean ;)

bernie's bender

09-12-2009, 05:49 PM

The assumption sometimes is that people and situations are static. In the beginning GF was the clear leader/cheerleader of the band and attracted the others via the 'one for all, all for one' kinda D'Artagnon approach. It was even how Felder was attracted to the band...

but, since the only constant is change... it stands to reason that Don H. really grew in his confidence and his growth 'arc' and his interests continued to expand while GF played the singular role of the initial motivation of the band and really knew how to use BL and RM with their musical interests to 'flesh out' the sound.

In the early years, I think they absolutely needed to be a band. (much like Steely Dan initially needed a full band as they grew into their potential)... As the band grew and the visions came clearer, the leadership of the band shifted and folks were marginalized. This is a common story and nothing that anyone should feel bad about...

There was a great band that Clive Davis put together with John Batdorf, Greg Collier, Handsome Harry Stinson, Tommy Leadon (Bernie's bro) and Brent Mydland in the mid 70's.... Given one member who really could have played the Glenn role... that could have been a band that would have been astoundingly good...

You can kind of map artists with an arc and you can kind of see how circumstances and personal growth play such a huge role in how things turn out.... Vince Gill is a great example of how he came to LA as a kid, got the right influences on guitar (Larry Carlton and Albert Lee) aped them well enough to get the gig (along with his super beautiful high high voice) with Pure Prairie League and use that as an intermediary step to what became his future as a solo star....

At the beginning, Meisner and Leadon were the musical forces in the band... with GF and DH the developing songwriters and singers... without that catalyzing agent... I don't think things would have been the same.

sodascouts

09-12-2009, 11:06 PM

I think all of the posts in this thread have been really interesting. Good discussion.

I closed the cover holding both Frey and Henley in considerably elevated esteem.

I found this statement intriguing. Why?

P.S. - For the record, soda - I managed to wait nine hours...You're more disciplined than I am. I usually hit "reply" as soon as I read a post!

AmarilloByMorning

09-14-2009, 04:08 PM

I found this statement intriguing. Why?:singer:
It does seem to fly directly in the face of generally-accepted canon. But for some reason, ingesting a continual diet of PR, accented by a book (To the Limit) of questionable impartiality given the involvement and implied legal wrangling on Henley’s part, culminated in my perceiving them as demi-gods. They seemed somehow removed from the rest of us – probably precisely their intent.

But having Felder’s some- warts-included take on the situation made them identifiable as actual, potentially-coexisting humans. Following Felder’s life as he attempted to negotiate the dissonant worlds of family and star had the unexpected side effect of forcing me to accept his former band members as everyday people who had, through a confluence of talent, synergy and sheer, dumb chance, wandered into a house of mirrors for which they probably had no preparation. For example, Henley buying twenty silk kimonos or something in Japan - he was clearly attempting to procure something that could not be acquired with the exchange of currency, and fame had probably conclusively thwarted his attempts to happen upon it naturally. Or, Frey’s much-maligned tendency to select nicknames that exploit respective insecurities. While I don’t agree with Felder’s suggestion of Prozac, clearly the guy either “has issues” or never had the opportunity to grow up, having wandered in his mid-twenties into a fishbowl of fame not particularly renowned for its ability to further psychological peace and development.

The book also made Henley and Frey’s continual, childish attempts at undermining and/or one-upping each other almost rational. Was their behavior prima facie absurd, particularly when Felder mixed tracks at Henley and Frey’s respective studios with identical results? Certainly. Did I wholeheartedly concur with Felder and Walsh’s exasperation and desire to leap aboard cushy chairs in the studios, just to see whether Henley would spontaneously combust? Most definitely. However... the book inadvertently made clear that, if either Frey or Henley backed down, the other would not follow suit to keep the peace or maintain some semblance of familial comfort, instead gathering speed to not only feather a dominion but also enact suffering for prior transgressions, perceived or actual. Neither of them had anything to gain by backing down from the power struggle, and really no choice but to either fight or fold completely; clearly, they both cared enough to stay in the game, so folding was not an option. They had both backed themselves into an almost incorrigible situation that two women might have solved with a heart-to-heart but two men assiduously refused to or found themselves unable to acknowledge even existed.

Finally... “In between takes, Don had become a prolific letter-writer. In one he composed to the studio maid, he insisted that the floral toilet paper be put on the roll the other way around so it rolled off the top, pointing out that if it was meant to come off the bottom, the little pink flowers would have been printed on the undersides of the sheets. Where you would see them.”

I mean, come on. I cannot be the only one who finds this indubitably hilarious. And, whether you agree with his actual expression of the opinion or not, the guy does have a point.

AmarilloByMorning

09-14-2009, 04:11 PM

LOL! I would THWACK you if you cleared his throat!You and a minion of Eaglephiles! I can absolutely envision hordes of people chasing me down the street with burning pitchforks, eager to terminate me.

sodascouts

09-14-2009, 05:41 PM

I'd certainly never thought of it that way, ABM. Interesting perspective.

In other news, Felder's birthday is coming up and as I always do, I was preparing some treats for it. One of these was a British interview from 2008. The interviewer was a bit confused and thought Felder had left voluntarily. "Was it a survival move for you to leave? Any regrets about not staying in the band?" You can almost see Felder trying to figure out a way to answer that which doesn't include the sentence "Actually, I got fired." He says something like "Well, it was like a bad relationship you know should end but you keep it going for the sake of the kids - the 'kids' were our music - but looking back now, I'm glad I decided to get myself out."

Um, that was creative! lol

AmarilloByMorning

09-14-2009, 06:11 PM

Hah, nice move. Did I just accidentally flip over to Oprah? That's the best metaphor he could devise? A) The kids are always unhappy in these scenarios; B) the particular scion in question seem to be doing just fine with their stepparents.

Freypower

09-14-2009, 06:39 PM

Koala

09-16-2009, 01:10 AM

After the interesting discussion of the last days I also bought the book,
unfortunately, I could read only a few sides, for more was still no time!

AmarilloByMorning

09-17-2009, 01:33 PM

Koala keep us posted on your thoughts when you have time (life is so aggravating when you're attempting to undertake a truly productive activity, isn't it?). Clearly we're more than happy to debate anything/everything.

Koala

09-17-2009, 01:45 PM

Outlaw Man

10-12-2009, 03:04 PM

I heard the Fallsview Casino's ballroom was pretty full for his shows, so he can still sell tickets. I guess it's up to him how much time he wants to invest in touring.

Fallsview is a nice, cozy, comfortable place to see a show.

Felder will be returning for 3 nights - January 7-9. The Saturday performance will be on my agenda, preceeded by a fine dinner at the Skyline (got to plan ahead!) and hang out in the casino after the concert.

Expectations?

The good: IIRC, there were two shows last year. So, an extra is a positive sign that the demand exists. Earlier this year, there were plenty of people just walking up, but unable to acquire tickets. We were fortunate, last time, since the tour was only Niagara Falls, San Diego, Alberta and one other city.

The bad: it's being billed as "An Evening at the Hotel California" again. This leaves me a little skeptical, as it could end up being the exact same thing as last time around. Certainly, the playing will be strong, his singing is decent enough and the band is very capable and professional. It's just that if it's a carbon copy, then that means there's nothing new and/or different.

Obviously willing to give a try and hope for a fun evening. Meantime, will have a look at Felderfans.

chaim

10-30-2009, 12:14 PM

It seems that the guy can't even decide who gave "Victim of love" its initial title, "Iron lung"; or if it's offensive or not. In his book he says that it was HIS initial title, because the riff reminded him of his childhood illness. However, in a rather recent interview I just read he says that GLENN called it "Iron lung", and that he found it offensive, because it reminded him of his childhood illness. :?

sodascouts

10-30-2009, 02:53 PM

Welcome, chaim! I thought he said that it offended him in the book, too, but maybe I am remembering wrong. It wouldn't be the first time! ;) Hope you enjoy yourself on the Border!

chaim

10-30-2009, 03:05 PM

Welcome, chaim! I thought he said that it offended him in the book, too, but maybe I am remembering wrong. It wouldn't be the first time! ;) Hope you enjoy yourself on the Border!

Thanks! I've been hanging around here for ages, reading the posts, but only today did I register!
Yeah, I checked Felder's book before I wrote that. He indeed says in the book, "I'd called it 'Iron lung', reminiscent of my childhood illness, because it had a distinctive echo slap on it". In the book it's an interesting musical description of an illness, and in the interview it was suddenly Glenn's offensive nickname for the song. But the guy has been contradicting himself quite a bit recently, so maybe I shouldn't have even noticed that one anymore :-)

sodascouts

10-30-2009, 03:21 PM

Wow, Chaim! You really called that one! Sharp eyes and a good memory - two things I envy, lol.

It's true he's very inconsistent but a lot of times, you can argue it was because he was remembering things differently. In this "Iron Lung" case, though, you can't escape the fact that he is actively lying to make Glenn look bad since the book he wrote just a few months prior says differently.

Yikes.

chaim

10-30-2009, 03:27 PM

By the way...just in case someone is getting me wrong, I didn't register here just to bash Felder! :-D
It's just that I've found the guy's recent behaviour and statements, especially concerning Eagles, extremely interesting psychologically.

(Using the "edit" button I add the quotes to this post afterwards; rather than post a new one. These are the ones I'm talking about.)

"I'd called it 'Iron lung', reminiscent of my childhood illness, because it had a distinctive echo slap on it" (from the book ”Heaven and hell”)

”That song was originally nicknamed “Iron Lung” by Glenn, I believe. But I found that particularly offensive since as a young child I spent a summer in the polio ward in the hospital watching kids come into the hospital and be put in a polio iron lung chambers.” (from an interview, 2008 )

GlennLover

10-30-2009, 03:58 PM

By the way...just in case someone is getting me wrong, I didn't register here just to bash Felder! :-D
It's just that I've found the guy's recent behaviour and statements, especially concerning Eagles, extremely interesting psychologically.

Welcome chaim. I didn't take you as just a Felder basher :). However, I agree with you about Felder's behaviour. I think that being "let go" from the Eagles was a huge psychological blow to him & I too find his reaction to it interesting.

Ive always been a dreamer

10-30-2009, 08:17 PM

Yeah - I understand people can get confused and misremember things, but if you decide to write a book, I think you will be perceived as much more credible if you don't contradict yourself. This is just one more of Felder's inconsistencies that makes you wonder just how good his memory is about the good ole days. :shock:

And chaim, welcome from me, too. Glad you found us here on The Border, and glad you decided to join in. Enjoy!

chaim

10-31-2009, 07:49 AM

By the way, what is this thing in the book about Glenn calling him "Spot" because of his thinning hair? Felder has never looked exactly bald, still doesn't, neither at the back OR front. If his hair started to thin in the 70's, how can he still have perfectly healthy hair?

sodascouts

10-31-2009, 09:39 AM

Rogaine? lol

chaim

10-31-2009, 09:46 AM

Rogaine? lol

Never heard of that, had to google it. Yeah, that must be the case! :-D

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-01-2009, 11:48 PM

Felder should have just been a good foot soldier like Tim & Joe and signed the damn papers. He'd still be playing ball with Eagles Ltd,

Quite frankly, he's lucky he was invited back in '94. Bernie & Randy were not as lucky...

MikeA

11-02-2009, 08:41 AM

I'm not sure that "signing the papers" and staying with the band was an option.

sodascouts

11-02-2009, 11:15 AM

It was an option for a long time, but Felder refused to sign, holding out for a better deal. Finally, they took the option off of the table. That was when Felder suddenly wanted to sign - when he realized they were calling his bluff. By then, it was too late.

MikeA

11-02-2009, 11:26 AM

You Snooze...You Lose

chaim

11-02-2009, 04:51 PM

By the way, this is my favourite part of the book: "I make no excuses for my bahaviour." Then after one sentence, "The others would have been very suspicious of me if I hadn't joined in".

chaim

11-02-2009, 07:31 PM

Just remembered just about the only thing that actually BOTHERS me in the book (meaning that not only irritates, but bothers). Don talks about "I can't tell you why", and how it was a chance for him to play "some really sensual guitar". He also writes about saying to Timothy, "I'm gonna have some fun working out my guitar parts for this". But what he fails to say (for some reason) is that Glenn played the lead guitar parts in the song. I assume that by his own guitar work Don means the rhythm guitars, which DO work cleverly together, sort of a "call/response" thing between the one in the left and the one in the right speaker. But by leaving out the fact that Glenn played the lead parts, many people are led to believe that Don played the leads also; "confirming" the misconception started by the fact that Don mimed the solos in the video, and played them live, because live Glenn had to decide between lead guitar and electric piano, both of which he played in the studio version.
Of course it has been well documented; in the album credits and later by both Glenn ("the unique guitar stylings by yours truly") and Don Henley (who has praised Glenn's lead work in the track); that Glenn originally did the lead parts, but still...
Anyway, if it really doesn't bother Glenn's ego, that thousands of people don't know that one of Felder's most loved solos is actually his, it doesn't seem to me that his ego is as big as Don Felder suggests.

This post reminds of a funny thing Glenn once said in an interview (in the 80's or 90's): "The bass players...(laughing) The bass players always chose me to play lead in their songs". When you look at it, it's true :D (Take the devil, Tryin', Certain kind of fool, Is it true?, Try and love again, I can't tell you why) In "Too many hands" Glenn does only half of the lead work, probably because the bass player wasn't the only writer of the song :D

(whoa, I must have edited this a thousand times)

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-02-2009, 10:10 PM

I agree chaim that Glenn's lead guitar work is very underrated. My favorite Glenn solo is "Try and Love Again" which to me is absolutely sublime.

To me Felder owes his career to Bernie Leadon who was a loyal friend that continuously encouraged his playing and endlessly encouraged him to move out to L.A. When he finally did, things finally took off for him after Bernie introduced him to his inner circle, most notably the Eagles. Talk about knowing the right people! Once aboard Eagles Ltd, Felder's sense of entitlement gets really out of whack

Freypower

11-02-2009, 10:58 PM

Congratulations to both of you for those two posts. I could not agree more. :thumbsup:

Ive always been a dreamer

11-02-2009, 11:13 PM

:thumbsup: from me too on your comments, chaim and GLO - very good observations, IMO.

sodascouts

11-02-2009, 11:15 PM

Very true, chaim. You have to wonder why Felder felt the need to leave that out. Some people believe if they don't overtly tell a lie but simply allow others to believe a falsehood - carefully phrasing things in ways that will lead people to believe the falsehood without technically lying - that somehow it's OK. To me and to the people who are deliberately misled, though, there's no difference between that behavior and a lie.

GTLO, I think Glenn has a complex about his guitar playing by being surrounded by people like Bernie, Felder, and Walsh who could play with more expertise. He underrates himself as a result, I believe. I agree with you - he's a very emotive guitarist (I saw that with my own eyes in Niagara Falls when he played "I Dreamed There Was No War"). I don't think he gives himself enough credit, and I know he doesn't get enough credit from the outside.

chaim

11-03-2009, 08:34 AM

A little correction to my previous post. I said that many people are led to believe that Don played the lead parts ALSO. I'll take the "also" word out, and rather suggest that many people are led to believe that Don is actually talking about the solos. I mean, especially in the case of "I can't tell you why", when one says "a chance for me to play some really sensual guitar", which one would most people think he's talking about? The solos that everyone raves about, or some rhythm guitars that most people probably don't even notice?

chaim

11-03-2009, 03:39 PM

I still haven't read all the posts in this topic, but I just went through a few dozens more. There was a comment somewhere along the way about Felder deserving a credit for the bass part in "One of these nights", which he explains in the book to be his contribution. I just had to comment. The way I see it, with the same logic quite a few of the songs in which the players have come up with their own parts, should be credited to the whole group. There's a line somewhere between writing and arranging, which, of course is never very clear. In the old Stanley-written KISS songs the main guitar riffs are often Simmons' bass parts that Stanley and Frehley decided to play also. Black diamond, Firehouse, Love her all I can, Room service (chorus riff)....all those "big guitar riffs" are bass parts that Simmons added later, which eventually became the main riffs. Still, he isn't in the credits, because he's never felt that he cowrote the actual songs. To him they're just little bits added later. Simmons also wrote the whole middle section in Frehley's "Cold gin". Still, he didn't feel the need for a credit, because the actual song was Frehley's. It always amazes me how people sometimes want credits for even a tiny drum fill. (Of course, as far as I know, Don himself has never cried for an official credit for that bass part!) Having said that, I think it's highly possible that "Hollywood waltz" was one of those "change a word, gain a third" (in this case a "fourth") songs for Glenn. :-D

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-03-2009, 04:13 PM

chaim

11-03-2009, 04:39 PM

I think you're right that Felder is implying that he wrote the "sensual" guitar solo in ICTYW, another outstanding solo from Glenn and a song that he takes great pride in having co-wrote with Tim. I wish he'd play it live again instead of keyboards. Another classic Glenn solo is Witchy Woman...nice work Roach!!

and I agree that Glenn is much too modest about his guitar abilities. His slide playing isn't too shabby either, my favorite is his work on Randy's "Is it True?". I also miss the Leadon/Frey banjo/slide interplay on Midnight Flyer & Earlybird.

Yes, it would be nice to see him play it. If I was in Glenn's position, my ego would have forced me to play it live after Felder's firing, if only to show the world that "hey, I wrote the thing"! It bugs me when I see people bashing Steuart Smith's version of the solo and compare it to Felder's version. Most of these "YouTube commentators" don't even know that it was originally written and played by Glenn. Not that Felder isn't a great guitarist, but I actually prefer Glenn's original, and one big reason is that he doesn't overinterpret it, like to my ears even Felder did. There are a few bits where I love Glenn's way to play them; just straight, without trying to play every note with "divinely expressive interpration" (like playing notes a bit late).
Now that you mentioned the slide...I don't mean to make Glenn out to be the world's greatest guitar player, but an interesting thing happened when I watched Eagles' New Zealand gig from '95. The most spine tingling moment for me was when Glenn played slide in Smuggler's blues. I wasn't waiting for "Glenn the slide player", or even the song. The song just came and the playing took me away. Of course the effect may have had a lot to do with the fact that Glenn had been sort of "waiting in the weeds" guitarwise until that point. But it was amazing to hear him play that slide. There wasn't even one note out of tune that I noticed.
I 100% agree with you on that banjo/slide thing. And the slide playing at the end of "Midnight flyer" sounds AWESOME!

GlennLover

11-03-2009, 05:42 PM

Yes, it would be nice to see him play it. If I was in Glenn's position, my ego would have forced me to play it live after Felder's firing, if only to show the world that "hey, I wrote the thing"! It bugs me when I see people bashing Steuart Smith's version of the solo and compare it to Felder's version. Most of these "YouTube commentators" don't even know that it was originally written and played by Glenn. Not that Felder isn't a great guitarist, but I actually prefer Glenn's original, and one big reason is that he doesn't overinterpret it, like to my ears even Felder did. There are a few bits where I love Glenn's way to play them; just straight, without trying to play every note with "divinely expressive interpration" (like playing notes a bit late).

Chaim, you just stated my opinion exactly! On an interview that Don H & Glenn did for The Long Run when they were discussing ICTYW, Don complimented Glenn's playing by saying "he can play guitar". Glenn, of course, was very modest about it and downplayed his abilities. I'm glad to read comments about Glenn's guitar playing abilities from those who actually know guitar, as I know next to nothing. Most of what I do know I have learned from Mike & others that post on The Border. I appreciate the education!

As much as I like to see & hear Glenn play the keyboards on ICTYW, I would love for him to play his guitar solo in concert. It really bothers me too, that he usually doesn't take credit for writing it & playing it on the original recording, although I know he (self-mockingly) mentioned playing it in the The Very Best Of booklet.

chaim

11-03-2009, 06:06 PM

Chaim, you just stated my opinion exactly! On an interview that Don H & Glenn did for The Long Run when they were discussing ICTYW, Don complimented Glenn's playing by saying "he can play guitar". Glenn, of course, was very modest about it and downplayed his abilities. I'm glad to read comments about Glenn's guitar playing abilities from those who actually know guitar, as I know next to nothing. Most of what I do know I have learned from Mike & others that post on The Border. I appreciate the education!

As much as I like to see & hear Glenn play the keyboards on ICTYW, I would love for him to play his guitar solo in concert. It really bothers me too, that he usually doesn't take credit for writing it & playing it on the original recording, although I know he (self-mockingly) mentioned playing it in the The Very Best Of booklet.

I've never heard of that interview, but yeah, I can almost see Glenn saying, "Well, Don, you KNOW I can't play guitar". :grin: I don't think he REALLY thinks he's that bad. If he thought so, I don't think he would have played as much guitar on his solo albums (I'm glad that he DID!). Sometimes I feel myself that it's better to say that I'm lousy at something. When I've said so myself, no one can say that to me anymore, and if someone says I'm not that bad, it's a nice bonus. Gene Simmons always says that he's a lousy bass player, although everyone who's ever worked with him, says that he's great and extremely creative with bass. For him saying "I suck" is a way of avoiding having to talk about it. And whan someone says "You're an *******", he replies, "Yes, I know", although it's pretty clear that he's basically quite a sweet guy. When you say you suck, the guards are down and no one can hurt you.

MikeA

11-03-2009, 06:08 PM

I have really tried NOT to get back into this discussion <LOL> but I simply must.

Folks, you can bash Don Felder's character all you want. You can state Quotes and Misquotes (Felder's, not YOURS) to make your points and can form an opinion based on that.

You can praise Glenn Frey's guitar playing, vocals and genius for composing and arranging and not be out of line at all.

Glenn is a good guitarist. Far better than the average amateur and better than a lot of professionals. He's Good! Really. Not being sarcastic.

But Glenn is simply not in the same class on guitar as Felder, Walsh, Stu Smith or Bernie Leadon.

Glenn is a better all-round musician than are the others and as much as I dote on Joe Walsh, I don't exclude him. Glenn is a fantastic "arranger/producer" and vocally, he is in my opinion, superior vocally to the "other" guitarists who have been in the group.

I'd go so far as to say that if he WAS a superior guitarist that Eagles LTD probably would not have recruited Leadon, Smith, Felder and Walsh.

If you were in a band and wrote a song with great guitar in it, for the recording would you not choose the BEST in the group on that instrument to play it? And in performances (i.e. Concerts) would you not want the Best in the group to play the song?

Each of these guys does what he does best.

But it is satisfying to consider that if Glenn were to do that song in a Solo Concert, he could do a good job of playing it instrumentally himself!

chaim

11-03-2009, 06:15 PM

I have really tried NOT to get back into this discussion <LOL> but I simply must.

Folks, you can bash Don Felder's character all you want. You can state Quotes and Miss Quotes to make your points and can form an opinion based on that.

You can praise Glenn Frey's guitar playing, vocals and genius for composing and arranging and not be out of line at all.

Glenn is a good guitarist. Far better than the average amateur and better than a lot of professionals. He's Good!

But Glenn is simply not in the same class on guitar as Felder, Walsh, Stu Smith or Bernie Leadon.

Glenn is a better all-round musician than are the others and as much as I dote on Joe Walsh, I don't exclude him. Glenn is a fantastic "arranger/producer" and vocally, he is in my opinion, superior to the "other" guitarists who have been in the group.

I'd go so far as to say that if he WAS a superior guitarist that Eagles LTD would not have recruited Leadon, Smith, Felder and Walsh.

If you were in a band and wrote a great guitar song for the recording, would you not choose the BEST in the group on that instrument to play it? And in performances (i.e. Concerts) would you not want the Best in the group to play the song?

Each of these guys does what he does best.

But it is satisfying to consider that if Glenn were to do that song in a Solo Concert, he could do a good job of playing it instrumentally himself!

I certainly didn't mean that Glenn is a better guitarist than Don! :D I was only referring to that one solo, "I can't tell you why", which I think Don often "overdid" ( I HATE overinterpreting). And I DO realize than when someone is in the shadows for a long time, it's easier to shine when one is having a brief moment in the spotlight. (referring to the "Smuggler's blues" incident I mentioned earlier)
But still, to me there's a difference between saying than Glenn is not THAT bad and putting him on the same level with Felders and Walshes.
However, I do see your point. We people sometimes tend to take things from one extreme to another. I certainly do. All in all, I think Glenn is a bit underrated and Don is a bit overrated. To me Don is technically way above Glenn, but emotionally or melody-wise I can't place one above another. I've never understood personally what makes Don such a "guitar god" (being a guitar player myself), but of course he must be; otherwise his playing wouldn't touch so many people. And touching people is what music is all about.

GlennLover

11-03-2009, 07:21 PM

I, also, did not mean to infer that Glenn's guitar playing was on the same level as Felder. I was just interested to learn how those who know guitar rate Glenn's playing. Regardless of my opinion of Felder's as a person, I certainly admire & appreciate Felder's wonderful talent as a musician.

Obviously, Glenn is my favourite Eagle, so the more prominent that he is in concert the happier I am :hilarious:. He could play ICTYW now instead of Steuart.

Freypower

11-03-2009, 08:28 PM

I am also a technical ignoramus, but I agree about the slide guitar work on the Christchurch version of Smuggler's Blues. It rocks. As for Glenn playing the solo on ICTYW, he never has. In one way I am glad he plays keyboards during that song because that is one of the few chances he gives himself. If he didn't play that part, which is as integral to the song as the guitar solo, who would play it? So it seems to make more sense for Steuart to play it.

I would be interested to hear from our technical experts about their opinions of Glenn's guitar work on his solo albums (if they have heard them, of course..... :laugh:) so perhaps a topic could be started about this in his forum.

(*I'd still like him to sing a song during an Eagles show without any instrument. If Henley can, why can't he)?

sodascouts

11-03-2009, 11:38 PM

No, he can't stop playing keyboards on ICTYW! It's the only song left where he does so, and I love it. He still plays a guitar solo on at least one of the songs the Eagles do.

chaim

11-04-2009, 02:51 AM

I would be interested to hear from our technical experts about their opinions of Glenn's guitar work on his solo albums (if they have heard them, of course..... :laugh:) so perhaps a topic could be started about this in his forum.

I hope that I'm not making the final, crucial move to turn this into a "Glenn the guitar player" thread...
I'm certainly no "techical expert"; I'm more like a rhythm player, who can do some lead when I REALLY put my mind into it. But one thing that sometimes bothers me about Glenn's ROCK solos on his solo albums (nothing to do with techical ability though; I don't know about that) is the dullness of them rhythmically and melodically. No syncopation or "wrong notes", rhythmically always on the beat. Almost too smooth. I don't mean that his solos are always like this, but the ones that are, seem to be so all the way through. It seems like he's been improvising rather than planning them. When I compare them to his lead work in "Too many hands", there's no contest. Actually, his lead work in TMH is some of his best lead work, to me. It's biting and at the same time REALLY interesting. One of the weirdest licks I STILL don't know how on earth to play. Now, before someone says that I like the licks because I know they are Glenn, I have to say that I loved them before I knew which one was Glenn and which one Don. I find it a bit ironic, that in a "duel" situation the guy who's more of a rhythm player, beats the actual lead player to the punch. But it does sound to me like Glenn has planned what to play before recording, and Don is improvising. If it is so, it's no wonder than Glenn's playing is more consistent here, when it comes to fascinating licks.
I just arrived at one point that I think separates Glenn from Don. I think that Glenn can play great solos when he writes them beforehand, and he can play them well when he's familiar with the solos. Whereas Don can play a great solo just about anytime, any place, just improvising. Also, Glenn's touch seems more fragile, and Don's seems to have "more authority". Maybe he has larger hands :grin: It would have been nice to be hearing Don's work during that famous backstage session. Glenn has said that he became a Felder fan there and then.

(By the way, one of my all-time-favourite guitar solos is the one by Paul Stanley in KISS' "A world without heroes". And he is a RHYTHM player! Maybe that says who much I'm NOT a guitar freak...)

GlennLover

11-04-2009, 09:02 AM

No, he can't stop playing keyboards on ICTYW! It's the only song left where he does so, and I love it. He still plays a guitar solo on at least one of the songs the Eagles do.

Oh Soda, I don't mean for Glenn to drop the last song he plays on keyboards :worried:. If he was to play guitar on ICTYW he would have to play keboards on at least one other song. I wish that he would play more piano! I loved it when he played piano on Wasted Time & Desperado.

chaim

11-04-2009, 02:44 PM

sodascouts

11-04-2009, 05:28 PM

Freypower

11-04-2009, 06:12 PM

It seems that Don Felder had a way with words even back in the seventies. I just read an interview that was done after "One of these nights" came out. He says that there are basically two ways the band writes songs:
1) One guy has a lyrical line or a couple of bars of music, and they go from there as a band. (An example he gave was "One of these nights", where Glenn had the title, nothing more, and then Felder "grabbed the bass".)
2) Don Felder may work with just one member (examples: with Randy in "Too many hands" and with Henley in "Visions".)
Looks like there never was too much modesty to begin with! :grin:

If you believe that, that is all Glenn contributed to both One of These Nights and Life In The Fast Lane. I don't believe it. Simple as that. He may not have written the lyrics for those but he wrote at least some of the music. The 'word and a third' stuff is typical of the way Felder denigrates Glenn at every opportunity.

I don't believe that Glenn and Henley would deliberately have withheld all these songwriting credits from Felder. I believe he is trying to claim undeserved credit in cases like this. He may have made suggestions as I'm sure others did, but that does not mean he co-wrote the songs.

chaim

11-04-2009, 06:19 PM

Hmmm, interesting. Seemed Felder was always eager to establish that he contributed more than lead guitar parts to the band's albums. I think his concern about getting enough credit for his contributions is a big part of what drove him to push for more money.

He also says about the Eagles music: "He (Henley) and Glenn work really well on the lyric part of it, and Bernie and I work primarily on the musical end of it". (Bernie, who was leaving the sessions on a crucial moment to go surfing, was surely working on the "musical end of it" more than Frey) Either the guy is guilty of a "slight case of exaggeration", or the Henley/Frey tunes weren't as finished as I've always thought they were, when they were presented to the band. Anyway, what I wondered most about the interview was, that the only two examples he gave of band members working separately (and not writing as a group) were the two songs HE co-wrote. Somehow I doubt that tunes like "I wish you peace", "Journey of a sorcerer", "Take it to the limit", "Lyin' eyes", "Hollywood waltz" and "After the thrill is gone" were written by the group in a rehearsal room.

chaim

11-04-2009, 06:25 PM

If you believe that, that is all Glenn contributed to both One of These Nights and Life In The Fast Lane. I don't believe it. Simple as that. He may not have written the lyrics for those but he wrote at least some of the music. The 'word and a third' stuff is typical of the way Felder denigrates Glenn at every opportunity.

I don't believe that Glenn and Henley would deliberately have withheld all these songwriting credits from Felder. I believe he is trying to claim undeserved credit in cases like this. He may have made suggestions as I'm sure others did, but that does not mean he co-wrote the songs.

I'm still pretty sure that Glenn wrote most, if not all, of the music to "One of these nights". The bass line certainly is NOT part of the composition, even if it was written by Felder. I've never understood why he keeps raving about writing the bass line. Players in rock groups tend to write their own parts anyway. That's arranging, not writing.
Anyway, Glenn's guitar harmonies in the beginning are quite crucial too.

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-04-2009, 09:24 PM

Freypower

11-04-2009, 10:12 PM

We have no evidence that Felder wrote the bass riff for OOTN except his claim. I would like to find out what the credited authors, Henley and Frey, have to say about it. If he wrote it he should have been given a credit.

I think you're right about the guitars though - it's Bernie and Felder, because Glenn plays piano on the track.

sodascouts

11-04-2009, 10:48 PM

In Canyon of Dreams, Randy claims credit for the opening of One of These Nights - seems everybody wants it!

Maleah

11-05-2009, 02:41 AM

I'm sure this probably sounds horrible, but given their track records....I'd be more apt to believe Randy. lol

chaim

11-05-2009, 04:48 AM

I think Glenn wrote and played piano in the studio for One of These Nights as that's what he played live on the song in the 70's. And I dig that classic opening bass riff that Felder wrote, so I give the man kudos on that one.

And chaim, how certain are you that those guitar harmonies aren't Bernie & Felder?

Long ago I read an interview with Felder from this era. When he talks about this song, he says something like "after Glenn does the introduction...", and by doing the introduction I can't think of anything else but the harmony guitars. Don may even have mentioned specifically "harmony guitars", I don't remember. I think all the harmony guitars in the studio version are Glenn, because he was fond of playing that kind of guitars even before that.
My theory about the basic track is this: Glenn: piano, Don Henley: drums, Randy: bass, Bernie: the guitar part that Joe plays today (the slide to "e" and then the E minor chord on the 12th fret in the intro and verses, probably also chords in the chorus; should listen with headphones), Felder: the rhythm guitar that plays the actual chords in the verses and the choruses.
And then later Glenn added all the harmonies, at least some of which other people had to play in concerts, of course. Even without Felder's words about this, it would be very unlikely that any of the harmony guitars were played while cutting the basic track. So they could have been added later by anyone, and in this case they were, according to Felder, added by Glenn. It wouldn't be the only time Glenn played two different, but crucial things on one song, some of which other people had to help reproduce live ("I can't tell you why...).
There are three or more harmony guitars anyway, so the COULDN'T even have been played while cutting the basic track.

(of course by "basic track" I mean the parts that are recorded live in the studio, before people start to overdub stuff on it)

chaim

11-05-2009, 05:04 AM

In Canyon of Dreams, Randy claims credit for the opening of One of These Nights - seems everybody wants it!

Did Randy claim the credit for writing it also? Felder does say too that Randy played the bass parts, but that he wrote them.

sodascouts

11-05-2009, 10:19 AM

chaim

11-05-2009, 10:29 AM

Checking the book, I see that Randy doesn't say he wrote the bass parts (ironically), but that he wrote the first lines. Here's the quote from the book:

"I came home from the Troubadour one night and got out my acoustic guitar and all of a sudden I had the first few lines of 'One of These Nights.'"

Actually I wondered if this might be a mistake because they're talking about "Take It to the Limit" a couple lines before and Randy has no writing credit on "One of These Nights." Maybe Randy meant he wrote the opening lines of "Take It to the Limit" or the interviewer misquoted him?

Yeah, that is puzzling. Sometimes I've seen people describe the process of writing, and mentioning a song title, while it's clear from their talk that they're talking about ANOTHER song! Randy also has said that he had the first few chords of Desperado, which is weird since, as I understand, it was an idea Don had even before the band got together.
Incidentally, I had never even thought that the bass lick in the beginning of One of These Nights could be considered as part of the actual "composition", until I saw people talking about it here. I always thought, still do, of it as a great little bass lick added to a Henley/Frey song.

sodascouts

11-05-2009, 01:21 PM

Yeah, it's hard to tell what constitutes a co-write and what doesn't. Like you said, people in a band often add their own nuances to the parts they play - it doesn't mean they should get a songwriter's credit!

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-05-2009, 01:45 PM

Randy must be talking about "Take It to the Limit" because he's told the story before how he came home one night from the Troub and picked up his guitar and wrote "All alone at the end of the evening....". Apparantly Don and Glenn helped him finish it lyrically just in time to make it on the album.

And I don't think Randy had anything to do with Desperado (the song). Maybe he's taking about "Saturday Night" off of the Desperado album. Randy has writing credit on it and it always struck me as very Meisner-esque, a lot of soul with a tinge of forlorn sadness.

As far as the bass intro to OOTN, I still believe Felder wrote it and he taught the part to Meis as described in his book. But that song is pure Henley/Frey, probably the song they are most proud of (and rightly so).

Ive always been a dreamer

11-05-2009, 02:48 PM

This is yet another interesting discussion here. You know, I honestly thought that after Felder's book was released that we would do the normal things that fans do i.e. discuss and analyze the book at length for a few weeks until all the hype died down - and then after that, the discussion would die, and this thread would go dormant, and just be part of the site's archives. Well - how wrong was I! It's now been well over 2 years since the book was released, and this thread just won't die. Now, this is not a criticism - just an observation. There have been a few times when I thought it would, but then something or someone always revives it and it got me to wondering why we fans want to continue to discuss it. I guess part of the reason is the fact that some people are just now getting around to reading the book or this thread. However, I also think that some of it's based on the fact that Felder continues to make comments that contradict what he says in the book - or to quote Tim, he continues to "feed the fire". I mean - heck -this may be on purpose to continue garnering interest in the book for all I know. I, for one, don't mind a little controversy, but in this case, Felder's inconsistencies just seem to keep eroding away at his credibility - a prime example being his recent 'iron lung' comment that rekindled this thread. So the bottom line here for me is that while I don't wish to keep bashing the man, he should quit handing me more ammunition. :wink:

As far as all the discussion with regard to writing credits, what bothers me most is the hypocritical double standard that Felder applies. While he can almost eagerly bash Glenn with comments like "change a word and gain a third", it seems to me that he has no problem expecting credit for every single contribution he made to any Eagles song. While none of us here, obviously, knows exactly who wrote what on any of the songs, I think it must be safe to say that Don Henley and Glenn Frey are the main creative talents behind the majority of Eagles hit songs.

sodascouts

11-05-2009, 04:44 PM

As far as the bass intro to OOTN, I still believe Felder wrote it and he taught the part to Meis as described in his book. But that song is pure Henley/Frey, probably the song they are most proud of (and rightly so).

Indeed, Glenn has said that this song is one of his favorites! To quote him:

"We had Don Henley's voice, which allowed us to go in a more soulful direction, which made me exceedingly happy. [...] A lot of things came together on One Of These Nights -- our love of the studio, the dramatic improvement in Don's and my songwriting. We made a quantum leap with 'One Of These Nights.' It was a breakthrough song. It is my favorite Eagles record. If I ever had to pick one, it wouldn't be 'Hotel California'; it wouldn't be 'Take It Easy.' For me, it would be 'One Of These Nights.'" (Very Best Liner Notes 2003)

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-05-2009, 05:27 PM

As far as all the discussion with regard to writing credits, what bothers me most is the hypocritical double standard that Felder applies. While he can almost eagerly bash Glenn with comments like "change a word and gain a third", it seems to me that he has no problem expecting credit for every single contribution he made to any Eagles song. While none of us here, obviously, knows exactly who wrote what on any of the songs, I think it must be safe to say that Don Henley and Glenn Frey are the main creative talents behind the majority of Eagles hit songs.

Hi IABAD, I am a huge fan of both Glenn & Don and agree that they are the driving creative force behind the band but I am wary about giving them too much credit for all those hit songs. After all, they had a lot of collaborators....

sodascouts

11-05-2009, 05:55 PM

Very true, GTLO. A lot of their hits and lead singles were written with or by other people, starting with Take It Easy and continuing even now to How Long.... not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

Ive always been a dreamer

11-07-2009, 01:24 PM

GLO, I didn't mean to imply that all the credit should go to Henley and Frey. I'm not sure how to measure what is considered too much or too little credit. Of course, they had lots of help and collaboration with those songs. However, I do believe, as you stated, that these two are the driving creative force behind the band.

The main point that I was trying to make in my previous comments was about what I consider to be the hypocrisy of Felder's over-inflated ego. IMO, the impression I get throughout his book and in subsequent interviews is that he seems to be very eager to minimize other's roles in writing the songs while viewing his own role as much more important than perhaps others see it.

bernie's bender

11-07-2009, 02:34 PM

iirc, around that time they spent some time in Alabama at Mussel Shoals... it is where Glenn was really exposed to what he called 'chinese chords' or double stops and triple stops (listen to an Al Green record or Cornell Dupree style stuff and you can hear it) they are used a lot in r&b and soul music...

I think Tippy Armstrong (a session guitarist there) spent some quality time with Glenn hipping him to that stuff... like most people, whoever is influencing us at the time tends to be what we are interested in and what we rely on as we make new creations.... so, there are some songs on that record that have a soul influence and double stops are relied on heavily.

One of these nights is a soul song. That long ride up on the bass and with the guitar parts is very much the sound that came from that trip (if you ask me) kind of a variation on a theme. I do remember reading in Felder's book that he took some credit for a lot of that.... but, and the old saying 'the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree'... the Frey touch is all over that song.

I would never argue that Frey is a better guitarist than Felder... Felder's ability is undeniable etc... but Frey's solos and his panache were/are singular... I can't tell you why is about as pretty a solo as I've ever heard and that is Frey.... those same licks you can hear all over One of These Nights and while Felder plays one of the best solos of the era on that song... I'd bet money that Frey was part of the design of how it went.

One thing that is pretty easy to hear even with 'Coach's' great editing is that the solo had a whole bunch of punch ins... which implies that the solo was constructed rather than just an inspired moment in the studio.

As with lots of creative endeavors... in the aftermath, folks often jostle for what made what.... When I listen to Glenn's solo work... I hear those OOTN tones and riffs more than I do in Donnie's work.

bernie's bender

11-07-2009, 02:49 PM

Now, this is not a criticism - just an observation. There have been a few times when I thought it would, but then something or someone always revives it and it got me to wondering why we fans want to continue to discuss it.

The Eagles are a polarizing group. Much more so than even the Beatles.

There are probably 20 books a year released about Abraham Lincoln... a person would think that it had been talked to death... Someone very close to me had their fiancee pass away tragically (they were in the their 20's back then and now are coming up on 50) and at a reunion of sorts, the topic came up and someone said, "how do you get over something like that?" and the response was "I'll let you know when I do."

To that end, for Felder the whole thing shaped his life and it was probably the most important thing in the world. In effect, he was a jilted lover and so, he may never really get over it. In some ways, all we are as people is our experience, our emotions and our actions...

The Eagles played a large role as the 'soundtrack' for many lives. For some, they were around that scene and watched it develop. Lots of Gram Parsons fans hate the Eagles because they made it and he passed away. In many ways, history keeps getting changed and rearranged to fit the emotional needs of the people who rely on it to tell them a story that helps them make sense of their lives.

My kids watched some youtube videos of Michael Jackson and found that lots of his dance steps were clearly imitative of greats that came before him. They were appalled. "Thief!" they joked (but kind of seriously) "Fraud" "Stealer!" and then they went to the MJ movie at the theater this week (I was out of town) and my son told me, "That tour would have been the coolest thing ever... but, if Michael Jackson had lived, everyone would have hated it... how come things get so complicated? We kind of admire people once they are dead, but everyone hates them when they are alive?"

I read about a book that is about Joni Mitchell, Carole King and Carly Simon the other day (I'm gonna get it) and the comment was "I really like Carly Simon, some of the other ladies not so much after the book, and I really don't like James Taylor now."

And I thought, you don't know them by reading the book. You know about them. Big difference. There is a great JD Souther/James Taylor line from "her town too" (about the divorce of Taylor and Simon) "some of them his friends, some of them her friends, some of them understand."

And that kind of explains how a thread like this can keep running... some of us advocate for a side, some are just trying to understand...

either way, I like reading the posts in this thread a great deal.

sodascouts

11-07-2009, 04:14 PM

Well said, Bender. And thanks for the perspective on Frey's playing as well.

bernie's bender

11-07-2009, 04:45 PM

thanks soda,

one thing that I'm incorrect about is when they went to Muscle Shoals (spelled correctly this time--nice to get to my laptop where I can search faster)

anyway, Glenn says he went there the first time in 71... and in a note I found

"Well, what d'ya know? A happy song! In 1971, on my first trip to Alabama, a guitar player named Eddie Hinton showed me the fingering for what I call the Bobby Womack Chinese soul licks. I am ever grateful."

I disremembered (ha ha) a little, but the point remains...

listen to "hairy hippie" and listen for the sliding guitar parts.. tons of 'eagley' parts...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrYM_x37GU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHna6e7b82A&feature=related

pretty cool guitar parts and you can kinda see where Glenn and the guys got it... and Bobby doing a JT song... shows.. the musicians don't see color or style or 'cool'... they hear music they like and they learn it and let it inform their own music.... it is what really, honest to god makes music so dang cool.

GlennLover

11-07-2009, 04:59 PM

Thanks for the posts Bender. I think your analogy comparing Felder to a "jilted lover" says it all! :thumbsup:

Thank you also for your educated comments about Glenn's guitar playing.

GettheLeadonOut!!

11-08-2009, 02:41 AM

Thanks for bending an ear, double-b

chaim

11-08-2009, 01:44 PM

Great posts, Bender! Great observations and thoughts! I don't know what to say at the moment :grin:

chaim

11-10-2009, 01:14 PM

Another funny thing just caught my attention in the book. Felder says at one point: "Glenn was at his home in Hawaii, playing golf or doing some corporate show for big bucks-a lucrative new sideline of his".
I find this funny, because when Glenn is playing with the Eagles, I understand that DON is pretty much at the same time playing golf and "doing some corporate show for big bucks". So what's the big difference between them there?

sodascouts

11-10-2009, 01:58 PM

Dang chaim, Felder better watch out, you are spotting all sorts of things! And you are absolutely right. Maybe the difference is that Felder doesn't do it in Hawaii. lol

Scott

11-12-2009, 04:10 PM

GlennLover

11-12-2009, 07:21 PM

Is he ever!

sodascouts

11-12-2009, 08:32 PM

Amen!

Hmm, wonder if I should make a Glenn Guitar thread... but it would be hard to move posts around because they are about Felder too... I'll think about it.

pueblo47

12-06-2009, 10:15 PM

I've just finished reading this entire thread and have come to the conclusion that everything has been said that I might have said<G>so that leaves me with slim and none left to say. However, I read DF's book, saw several goofs in it but overall enjoyed it. I like all the guys, being a 60's teen and from CA back then, I remember the shaggy-haired, bearded look and the first "squeakings" of the beginning of country-rock bands, including them. To me, their early offerings were not indicative of what they would become. They were just another band struggling to make it. When they did hit it, it was like the shot heard around the world, and the echoes have never stopped. They, like the Stones, have endured and their music keeps adding generation after generation of fans. My daughter had been listening to Frey and Henley on their solo albums for years before she ever knew they were The Eagles, a band she had never heard of. She did know Hotel California, said it played endlessly on the radio and MTV till she was sick of it and still didn't realize GF and DH were IT till she watched one of their concerts on DVD at my place. Other than HC, she likes them now, lol. I have no problem with any of the guys, fame and power always corrupts, drugs and sex rule, money buys everything and hides things you don't want publicized. They are simply guys who had too much too soon at too young an age to be able to resist the temptations and all the excesses that come with it. Now they're in their 60's and all that's behind them. DF may never be able to deal with it but he's moving on, slowly. And for someone who said at the beginning of this post that I didn't have anything left to say that hadn't already been said, I guess I lied..........

sodascouts

12-06-2009, 11:54 PM

pueblo47

12-07-2009, 12:42 PM

Thanks for the welcome. I usually read the whole thread before jumping in so any contribution I may have won't be worried to death, lol. Years ago all my Eagle stuff was lost in a divorce and I've been re-building it and now it's even better with the advent of DVD's and the internet and ebay, Amazon, etc. Magazines from the '70's, concerts, radio programs on CD's and on and on. Don't have any particular favorite, they're just all-right guys, even Smith, who lives here in Nashville where I now reside. The country album, Common Thread that kicked off the 1994 reunion, is awesome, especially Travis Tritt's version of Take It Easy with the Eagles backing him. Country rock, long may it live!

Ooops, got to edit this and add something about DF's book. I enjoyed the book, like I previously said, there were a few flubs in it but overall, it depicted the life-style of the bands in the '70's quite accurately. The squabbling was the norm for all the groups(probably still is), the eternal power struggle to be the BIG DUDE over the others, money gets in the way of the music, etc. And for all that, doesn't it always end with the rebellious ones turning into their parents? Respected businessmen, family men. I have always found this hilarious cuz it always turns out that way. Now they know what they put their parents through<G>cuz their kids are doing the same to them and they're having a hard time dealing with it too. DF appears to be a nice guy, just too sensitive to handle the stress that came with super-stardom. He let all the little nit-picky comments build up over the years, mountain out of molehill syndrome. And since he was a blonde:grin:, most of the time he didn't seem to have a clue that what he perceived as an insult wasn't at all. Yeah, he comes off in spots as whiney but I still consider him an Eagle and one of the greatest guitarists they ever had. I need to shut up now:shh:....

sodascouts

12-07-2009, 06:15 PM

And for all that, doesn't it always end with the rebellious ones turning into their parents? Respected businessmen, family men. I have always found this hilarious cuz it always turns out that way. Now they know what they put their parents through<G>cuz their kids are doing the same to them and they're having a hard time dealing with it too.

So true! Now the Eagles perform in suits and grouse about those new-fangled things like social networks, MP3s, iPods, YouTube videos... youth going to hell in a handbasket, I tell ya! No respect for others! No respect for the law! It's like the freaking Wild West out there! ;)

chaim

12-12-2009, 09:21 AM

Welcome, Pueblo! You make a lot of sense.

As for reading this whole thread - kudos to you! Most people don't bother before they post their opinions about Felder's book and often they're repeating what's already been said.

Hmm, probably guilty. :) I was reading the old posts little by little at the same time as I was making my first contributions here.
Again, somone already said something like this earlier, but to me there's one thing so horribly wrong with autobiographies that bring up other people's mistakes and misjudgements, that I have to say it once more. Other people will be judged only by their actions, but the author gets the chance to explain (or possibly even invent) his/her thought processes so that even his/her weird behaviour will somehow become justified.
A tiny example from Don's book. As I recall, he heard that one of his old friends was in a wheel chair because of heavy drug use. Don doesn't say that he did anything for him, but he THOUGHT "I wonder if I still have his number, to call him and see if there's anything I can do". So even though he may have done nothing, he at least THOUGHT about it, so he sort of did the right thing.
Don says that he didn't receive a reply from Glenn when he sent him a "is there something I can do?" message after his divorce. However, it's always possible that the message made Glenn feel a bit better and he really THOUGHT about writing a warm response, but somehow he never got into it. Or maybe he was too depressed to answer. But because we don't know what Glenn thought, we only have his actions (or non-actions in this case) to consider.
I don't mean this as Felder-bashing, it's the same thing with any autobiography that brings up old wounds.

pueblo47

12-12-2009, 12:22 PM

Very true. It's difficult, if not impossible, to discern how someone else might react to this type of situation. And in DF's case, it's my opinion that he was overly-sensitive to his bandmates' apparent disregard of his good intentions. He wanted some kind of acknowledgement that the others didn't think was necessary, or in GF's case, might have been incapable of because of emotional issues.

Again let me say here that I'm really into DF's guitar work and the guy himself is way cool.

sodascouts

12-13-2009, 12:05 PM

Hmm, probably guilty. :)

Well, honestly, sometimes I find myself repeating things even AFTER I've read the threads!

Granted, autobiographies naturally favor the author, but Felder's list of petty wrongs and speculation as to the intentions, thoughts, and feelings of the other guys - such as speculating that Glenn was "bipolar" in an interview, or calling him psychologically "sadistic" in his book - really turned me off.

Glennhoney

12-13-2009, 04:21 PM

..hahaha...Don actually said that Glenn was bipolar??????....this is getting more ridiculous by the minute..:hilarious:

pueblo47

12-13-2009, 09:57 PM

Hope I don't ruffle any feathers. In defense of Felder...he was hurt and mad and probably harbors no good will toward the band, especially at the time of the lawsuit and preparing his book. He's entitled to his opinions, whether we think they're right or wrong. He preceived himself as a victim, though I think it was "business" and the others thought it was for the good of the group. Too much dissention was eating them up again. Kind of looks like things have settled down now, they all look like they're getting along with the addition of Smith, who is simply a sideman but a valuable asset to the guys. I can't help but like Felder, I have several dvd's of the concerts he was in and no one can hit the licks on the guitar like he can.

Yeah, here I am again, back to revise this. Stu Smith is a very good replacement for Felder, he and Joe seem to get along great and of course, it's my learned opinion that NO ONE can outplay Joe....NO ONE!!!

Eve

06-03-2010, 09:04 PM

I ordered the book for my Kindle and loved it. I'd bet the book is far more fact than fiction. The Marc Eliot book is pretty good too.

God I would have loved to see Bernie dump that beer...

tbsfan

06-03-2010, 10:41 PM

I ordered the book for my Kindle and loved it. I'd bet the book is far more fact than fiction. The Marc Eliot book is pretty good too.

God I would have loved to see Bernie dump that beer...

The Marc Eliot book was loaded with errors. I took both books with a huge chunk of salt although I do see Felder's book at least as his version of the truth.

bassgoddess

08-10-2010, 04:11 PM

Hello ... I'm new to the board, and am just learning my way around. I've been an Eagles fan for many years. I'm also a musician, and enjoy playing their music.

I've never seen the Eagles live, but my favourite DVDs are "Hell Freezes Over" and "Live in Melbourne."

I've just started reading Don Felder's book, so I'm not going to make any comments on that (yet). BTW, I'm going to see him at Niagara Fallsview Casino on August 26th. Looking forward to the show!

I'm enjoying reading all the comments so far.

:guitar:

GettheLeadonOut!!

08-10-2010, 07:04 PM

Enjoy the book bassgoddess. Curious to hear your feedback.

Eve

08-10-2010, 08:38 PM

I am so jealous you get to see Don Felder!!! I loved his book by the way.

sodascouts

08-10-2010, 11:19 PM

Welcome, bassgoddess!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the book, too.

Congrats on getting to see Felder in concert! I got to see him a little over a year ago in Windsor, Ontario and had a great time. I drove five hours to see him, but it was worth it! We have a spot for concert reviews once you see Felder so you can tell us all about it: Don Felder Concert Review Forum (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

miket156

10-26-2010, 09:57 PM

I was aware that Don Felder was fired by the "rest" of the Eagles, but I had no idea of why. As everyone knows, he was fired by Henley and Frey, who have been bullying others in the Eagles for years. Yeah, I've been an Eagles fan for decades, but telling the other members of the band that they will get paid a salary and the two kingpins get the rest of the $$$ soured me to the Eagles. I wish I would have read into this years ago. I won't be going to any of Henley and Frey's shows or buying any of their music, I hate thieves, and that's what they are.

That Hypocrite Henley has been "fighting" for a better deal for musicians for "years", unless it comes to his band. A...hole. Greedy sleeze-ball. He can't play drums anymore, he sucks. He can still sing and write, but he's a poor excuse for a human being.

Mike T.

MikeA

10-27-2010, 08:54 AM

Oh My! This is going to be "interesting!" <LOL>

WalshFan88

10-27-2010, 08:57 AM

Oh My! This is going to be "interesting!" <LOL>

:hilarious: Ya think?!

sodascouts

10-27-2010, 05:07 PM

Eh, I dunno how interesting this will be. After three years, this kind of post just makes me tired.

You are welcome to your opinion, miket, but please refrain from personally attacking a member/members of the Eagles on this board (ie, "a--hole," "sleeze-ball" [sic], "poor excuse for a human being"). See Terms of Service (https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1).

miket156

10-27-2010, 09:55 PM

Well Soda, I read the Terms and Conditions and my understanding is that personal attacks refer to other people that POST on this Forum. I don't see any Posts by either members of the Eagles I am talking about. I will refrain from name calling, but an Administrator that insists on people that post here to sweep the truth under the rug doesn't change the facts. Saying something negative about what they did to other members of what was once a great band is not allowed?

Mike T.

Freypower

10-27-2010, 10:17 PM

The Netiquette Guidelines state the following:

8. Be respectful of the band and individual band members. Since this is a message board for fans, you will not get a lot of sympathy here if you post solely for the purpose of trashing the band or one of its members. We are by no means saying that you can't criticize the band or any of the individual band members. Sometimes they are worthy of criticism. But again, follow the basic rules of common courtesy and respect when doing so. For example, even if you don't like a particular band (or former or supporting) member, be respectful of the band member and his fans when stating your opinion. Conversely, if you happen to love only one of the guys, be aware that not everyone may share your view. For those who join up simply to say that they hate the Eagles... go spend your time more productively elsewhere.

Hope this helps.

miket156

10-27-2010, 10:39 PM

I didn't join up just to trash Don or Glenn. I was looking for more information about the Law Suit that Don Felder filed against them and to read opinions about Felder's book. Every story has two sides, so I didn't want to accept everything Don Felder said about what led to him being fired from the band as Gospel. Some of the things I picked up were that Don Felder didn't want to tour as much as Don and Glenn, sometimes he didn't show up for rehearsal, and generally complained about a lot of things. Don and Glenn felt he was disruptive to the band. However, trying to get rid an original partner in Eagles Inc is a lot more complicated (legally) than just saying "Your Fired". That might work for The Donald, but not when all that money is being taken away for a stock holder.

I don't hate the Eagles. On the contrary, the Eagles have been my all-time favorite group. So I don't appreciate it when someone tells me to spend my time elsewhere. I've come to read what others have to say, learn some things I didn't know, and express my opinion. Gushing all over band members and over looking giving the other members the shaft is not exactly straight up, is it?

I posted a reply to the Moderator that I would tone down the name calling, but I have not changed my opinion.

Cheers,

Mike T.

sodascouts

10-27-2010, 11:12 PM

Mike, if you genuinely want to participate in discussions about the Eagles and you'll refrain from name calling - play nice, so to speak - you're welcome here.

miket156

10-28-2010, 03:41 PM

Thanks,

Mike T.

Koala

01-29-2011, 11:19 AM

Book Review: Heaven and Hell: My Life in the Eagles 1974-2001 by Don Felder

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-heaven-and-hell-my/

pueblo47

01-29-2011, 11:45 AM

Interesting review. I'd also like to hear the other members' versions, from their viewpoints. Frey has never, to my knowledge, said anything negative about Felder, has remained fairly silent on this particular topic, to his credit.

As for the "gods" remark we're all familiar with, Frey was and still is the undisputed founder and leader of the Eagles, along with Henley, both of whom were, and still are, the driving force that keeps them in the spotlight.

Ive always been a dreamer

01-29-2011, 12:16 PM

Yep - I think most all of us Eagles fans would love to hear any of the other members tell their side of the story (at least what they can remember :grin: ). It's a fascinating story to tell - that's for sure! I know I've got my fingers crossed that some of the others will decide to speak out one day, although I'm not really counting on it.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 02:12 PM

I'd also like to hear the other members' versions, from their viewpoints.Same here. Henley has talked about writing an autobiography and I sure hope he does. Glenn has also mentioned writing one, although not as often as Henley has. They have led fascinating lives and I would love to hear more about their experiences.

The reviewer mentions Fleetwood Mac. Mick Fleetwood wrote a book about the band back in 1990 that contained far more shockers than Heaven and Hell. The explosive fight that precipitated Lindsey Buckingham's exit from the band in 1987 makes Felder's firing look like a cakewalk. All Felder got was a letter. No one tried to choke him!

pueblo47

01-29-2011, 02:28 PM

The explosive fight that precipitated Lindsey Buckingham's exit from the band in 1987 makes Felder's firing look like a cakewalk. All Felder got was a letter. No one tried to choke him!
Heh heh, Amazon, here I come.....:smile:

And it's done....anticipation is making me wait.......

tequila girl

01-29-2011, 02:34 PM

Heh heh, Amazon, here I come.....:smile:

Just thinking that myself!!.... :hilarious:

GlennLover

01-29-2011, 02:53 PM

Same here. Henley has talked about writing an autobiography and I sure hope he does. Glenn has also mentioned writing one, although not as often as Henley has. They have led fascinating lives and I would love to hear more about their experiences.

I had never read or heard anywhere that Glenn or Don ever said that they might write autobiographies. I thought that Glenn in particular would not write one, but I don't know why I thought that. Very glad to hear that they both have mentioned writing one. So there is hope! :yay: Maybe they're waiting until the Eagles have retired.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 03:22 PM

Prepare to be entertained, guys, if you've ordered Mick's My Life and Adventures in Fleetwood Mac. Mick's life has been far more of a rollercoaster than Felder's - going from being the son of poor British solder to being filthy rich in the 70s to declaring bankruptcy in the 80s. Before we even get to Stevie and Lindsey there's already affairs and personal drama in the band, but once those two join, the fireworks really start. Plus, the band dynamics are much more complex, especially during the Rumours era - Mick is an originator and the leader of the band and thus has the final say in band decisions, Christine writes and sings many of the hits, Lindsey has an ear for production and a unique guitar genius, and Stevie is the dynamic performer that many people are drawn to and start to consider the "face" of Fleetwood Mac. As a result of this distribution where no one truly holds all the cards, the reader is the edge of his/her seat as to how stuff is going to go down. They all played vital roles and when Lindsey left, the band plummeted from a top-10 act to an opening band at rodeos. When he returned they shot back up (although, since this was written in 1990, we don't get to see that trajectory in the book). His story has much more passion and drama, a personal intensity that's just not found in Heaven and Hell (which is natural, I suppose, because none of the Eagles slept with each other :lol: - all the drama in Heaven and Hell centers around "they are mean and greedy").

And, to augment Mick's account of that 1987 fight, here's a bit from their Behind the Music with other perspectives:

Narrator:
Like Stevie, the rest of the band pursued solo projects in the mid nineteen eighties. They came back together in 1987 to record the album “Tango In The Night”, which proved a great success. But as so often in Fleetwood Mac, the guitarist was having problems.

Mick Fleetwood:
The album came out, and the rest of us go….."We gotta go out on the road….we’ve just made a good album….are we going to not push it?" And Lindsey agreed to [go out on the road] against his better judgment….and that all went wrong. We’d set the whole tour up and suddenly….boom… [Lindsey tells us at the band meeting at Christine's house] "I can’t do this….I can’t face it…" (Mick shakes his head).

Stevie Nicks:
Because of that guilt I’ve always had about not leaving Fleetwood Mac [because it was so hard for Lindsey to work with me]…. I flew out of the couch and across the room to seriously attack him [when Lindsey said he couldn't handle touring] And I did. I mean…I’m not real scary….but I can be fairly ferocious…..and I grabbed him…. y’know... which almost got me killed.

John McVie:
It got ugly…..physically ugly….(John mimes strangling someone).

Stevie Nicks:
He ended up chasing me all the way out of Christine’s maze like house and down the street….and back up the street….and he threw me against the car…and I screamed horrible obscenities at him……and I thought he was going to kill me……and I think he probably thought he was going to kill me too…..and I said to him…if the rest of the people in the band don’t get you….my family will….my dad and my brother will kill you.

John McVie:
And I said to Lindsey…why don’t you just leave……he left……but what I meant was why don’t you just leave the room (laughs)

http://www.fleetwoodmac-uk.com/articles/FMart60.htm

But they're all cool with each other now. Amazing! It's the whole passionate love / passionate hate thing I guess.

At the risk of appearing to derail this thread, I'm only writing as a comparative to Heaven and Hell.

Glennhoney

01-29-2011, 05:03 PM

....apparently on Don Felder's website or facebook site..(I haven't checked this out yet), but there's talk of a "Heaven and Hell" movie??????????

Freypower

01-29-2011, 05:39 PM

....apparently on Don Felder's website or facebook site..(I haven't checked this out yet), but there's talk of a "Heaven and Hell" movie??????????

All I would say to that is there would be absolutely no way Felder could get the relevant permission. I'm just shaking my head at the thought that he could even think such a thing could be possible. How would it be done? Change all the names?

As for Glenn & writing an autobiography he did mention it once. But then he mentions a lot of things in passing and nothing ever happens. I would prefer to see him exercise his creativity in writing songs.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 05:42 PM

....apparently on Don Felder's website or facebook site..(I haven't checked this out yet), but there's talk of a "Heaven and Hell" movie??????????

I can't imagine how that would work logistically - they wouldn't be able to use any Eagles sound recordings in it; at best, they could use covers with permission acquired under compulsory license. How can you have an Eagles movie with no Eagles sound recordings?

If they did decide to go ahead and do it without the songs though... shoot. That could get ugly.

I honestly think it's a pipe dream at this point that may get as far as vague talks but won't go all the way to production. We'll see whether or not I'll have to eat my words.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 05:44 PM

All I would say to that is there would be absolutely no way Felder could get the relevant permission. I'm just shaking my head at the thought that he could even think such a thing could be possible. How would it be done? Change all the names?

He wouldn't have to change names - you can make movies about someone without asking permission. Just ask anyone who's has an "expose" movie done about them!

Glennhoney

01-29-2011, 05:46 PM

...my thoughts exactly..can you imagien the court battles?....I must find that article..

whitcap

01-29-2011, 05:51 PM

He mentioned it in a radio interview he did recently:
http://www.felderfans.com/2011/01/don-felder-2011-canadian-shows-promotion/

tequila girl

01-29-2011, 05:58 PM

Glennhoney

01-29-2011, 05:59 PM

..ditto..I don't like the guy either...

pueblo47

01-29-2011, 06:01 PM

Please don't shoot me down............but I have to be honest here - I just don't like the guy and couldn't even force myself to listen to him for 15 mins (Sorry) but I really can't see it happening........I personally have no problem with that, ladies....:censored::enraged::argue::fight::sword: :armed::machinegun::cuss::saberfight:heh heh heh.....jk

pueblo47

01-29-2011, 06:05 PM

..ditto..I don't like the guy either...Henley is my least favorite of the present band but he's an Eagle and I read and listen to everything concerning him merely because I might find out something I didn't know. And he's very outspoken:thumbsup:....

tequila girl

01-29-2011, 06:05 PM

I personally have no problem with that, ladies....:censored::enraged::argue::fight::sword: :armed::machinegun::cuss::saberfight:heh heh heh.....jk

:hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious: You crack me up Judy!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

tequila girl

01-29-2011, 06:06 PM

Henley is my least favorite of the present band but he's an Eagle and I read and listen to everything concerning him merely because I might find out something I didn't know. And he's very outspoken:thumbsup:....
That's OK....you're allowed to have a least favourite! :hilarious:

Freypower

01-29-2011, 06:07 PM

He wouldn't have to change names - you can make movies about someone without asking permission. Just ask anyone who's has an "expose" movie done about them!

And that's all it could be - a low budget National Enquirer tabloid style thing. And it would be - how can I put this - rather one-sided.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 06:25 PM

Of course everyone has their favorites and those they like best (and least) of the Eagles. That's natural. Many of the Eagles have made choices or behaved in ways that have garnered disapproval from different quarters. It's fine to criticize those choices or behaviors, but let's stay away from personal disparagement of any of the seven men who have been a part of this band.

Eve

01-29-2011, 09:27 PM

Ive always been a dreamer

01-29-2011, 10:28 PM

Well - first of all, if any of the current Eagles do decide to write an autobiography, we will probably have to wait a while yet, 'cause the story is still being written! :partytime:

I thought Almost Famous was a great movie, but it was different because it was loosely based on various bands and characters. So it wasn't an autobiography like Heaven and Hell: My Life in the Eagles. I'm not sure how they could do a movie about Felder's life as an Eagle if the Eagles aren't in the movie? If it were made, I don't really understand why anyone here would hide it if they went to see the movie. I certainly would go see it and would want to come back here and talk about it. As far as Felder, I certainly appreciate his talent and contributions to the band and thought he really added energy to the band's live performances. Now, I'm basing that only on bootlegs I've seen since, sadly, I never saw him perform live. My personal opinion of him did change after reading his book.

sodascouts

01-29-2011, 11:59 PM

I'd probably wait 'til it comes on Netflix. ;) Of course I'd see it, though - how else would I be able to evaluate it?

I'm not sure how they could do a movie about Felder's life as an Eagle if the Eagles aren't in the movie?

I imagine that if they did it, they'd simply have actors playing everyone, including Felder. It would probably be like The Temptations miniseries, which was based on founding member Otis Williams' autobiography. It presented some of the other Temptations, most notably David Ruffin, in a rather unflattering light. Ruffin's daughter was filing a lawsuit before the miniseries even aired. She lost and it went forward, but they did delete some "dramatized" (read: made up) scenes portraying Ruffin on a drug-induced rampage at a picnic. A couple other lawsuits were filed by people who didn't like how they were portrayed in the miniseries - including Otis' ex-wife. They all lost as well and the miniseries still airs regularly in VH1, which is where I saw it. I think they just had the actors sing to avoid any problems with sound recordings.

Like I said, messy.

Freypower

01-30-2011, 12:08 AM

"Almost Famous" did pretty good. Change the names to protect the guilty/innocent. The people that bought the book would go see it as I am sure every one of the people here would as well. Whether they would admit to it or not would be another thing.

If I went to see it I would certainly admit to going to see it. I just very much doubt that it would work very well unless perhaps they focused less on the musical side & more on his personal life.

I honestly think it's time he moved on from this because he was fired ten years ago. I would be more interested in new music from him.

WalshFan88

01-30-2011, 05:35 AM

I just read the book for about the 2nd or 3rd time. My impressions haven't changed... I want to hear all sides of the story but to me Felder in some parts really tries to play the "victim" too much. I'm sure he made mistakes or said things too.

As far as a movie, I have no clue how that would or could happen. I'll watch it, but I really need to hear the other sides of the story, particularly "The Gods" version of it. :hilarious:
All in all, I'm glad I bought the book so I could read it and add it to my Eagles book collection but I'm not gonna say my final thoughts until I hear the other stories, which may never happen. I don't think we can piece this together to form what's true or false with just one guy's story of what happened.

I still think Felder is a great guitar player, no doubt, and is very talented, but I get a little tired of him playing the role of the "victim" all the time.

Ive always been a dreamer

01-30-2011, 01:42 PM

I'm not sure how they could do a movie about Felder's life as an Eagle if the Eagles aren't in the movie?

I imagine that if they did it, they'd simply have actors playing everyone, including Felder.

Well I just realized that I didn't make myself very clear here. I really didn't mean this in the sense that the real Eagles would be in the movie. Of course, we know that'll never happen -probably couldn't even use any video or footage of the real band. What I meant is that it wouldn't make sense to make a movie about the book and write the band out of the plot or use fictional characters since the book is primarily about the band.

sodascouts

01-30-2011, 08:20 PM

Sorry, dreamer, I did indeed misunderstand you. I agree that the "change the name" premise is unworkable. When you market a film by saying it's based on Felder's tenure with the Eagles, changing names would serve no purpose except to remove any vestiges of authenticity from the project. I can hear the trailer now: "Based on Don Felder's time in the Eagles, a new movie is being brought to you called The Beagles. Watch as Ben Rye, Ron Finley, Ernie Breadon, Andy Geisner, and Ron Pelder rocket to stardom, only to fall apart due to Rye and Finley's greed - aided and abetted by double-dealing manager Merv Tazeoff!"

MikeA

01-30-2011, 09:08 PM

Sorry, dreamer, I did indeed misunderstand you. I agree that the "change the name" premise is unworkable. When you market a film by saying it's based on Felder's time in the Eagles, changing names would serve no purpose except to remove any vestiges of authenticity from the project. I can hear the trailer now: "Based on Don Felder's time in the Eagles, a new movie is coming out called The Beagles. Watch as Ben Rye, Ron Finley, Ernie Breadon, Andy Geisner, and Ron Pelder rocket to stardom, only to fall apart due to Rye and Finley's greed - aided and abetted by double-dealing manager Merv Tazeoff!"

LOL :rofl:

pueblo47

01-30-2011, 09:27 PM

Ernie Breadon??? Blasphemy!!! And funny as you-know-what:rofl:. Everyone's on a roll today.....or is it a biscuit?:hilarious:We're all smarmily clever(I'm sure smarmily is a legit word)

Ive always been a dreamer

01-31-2011, 12:16 AM

EaglesKiwi

01-31-2011, 03:36 AM

That is too funny, Soda. But I can't believe that Moe Balsh and Jiminy P. Crick didn't get parts in the film. It won't be the same without them. Probably a decision by the film's country oriented producer, Lynn Thoms. :shrug:

:hilarious:

I have just been reading the book too. So much of it was about Felder's personal background and journey to Eagles-hood, plus his thoughts and opinions... I just can't see how they could make a movie out of that without including all the other Eagles' backstories and opinions - which they haven't all made public yet. It would be a bit like looking at a flower that only has one petal - I'd spend my whole time wishing for the rest of it!

WalshFan88

01-31-2011, 04:34 AM

Ive always been a dreamer

01-31-2011, 10:50 AM

Austin - I think you must have been reading my mind. :thumbsup:

GlennLover

01-31-2011, 01:56 PM

You guys are too much. Clever! :rofl:

Prettymaid

01-31-2011, 03:15 PM

Alrighty then, I do believe this movie has been cast! :grin:

Freypower

01-31-2011, 08:52 PM

:hilarious:

I have just been reading the book too. So much of it was about Felder's personal background and journey to Eagles-hood, plus his thoughts and opinions... I just can't see how they could make a movie out of that without including all the other Eagles' backstories and opinions - which they haven't all made public yet. It would be a bit like looking at a flower that only has one petal - I'd spend my whole time wishing for the rest of it!

Yes, but the book was written from Felder's viewpoint & any movie would have to take a similar approach. Your point is valid - it could not claim to be a movie about 'the Eagles' as a band.

chaim

04-11-2011, 03:42 PM

Oh, a movie could easily be made. Everything could happen in the movie like it was described in the book, including all the Eagles stuff. Then at the very end we see a grey Don Felder standing on a golf course, about to perform the swing of his life. Don just had a flashback!

Topkat

09-09-2011, 01:46 PM

As a newbie here, I don't want to ruffle any feathers, so I will keep my opinion of this book brief. My original interest in reading it is that I am writing a novel that takes place in the early 70's and one of the characters is a rock singer, so I am just trying to get the feeling of what things were like in a band during this time period. I have read a lot of Bios & as a fan of the Eagles, I decided to pick this up. I have to say I found it all quite an eye opener, but as you all stated, this is Felder's story, not the story of the Eagles. I was not really shocked by the drug use or the outragous behavior. I'm just going to say that I respect them all as musicians, and that they had a lot of personal differences, is pretty well documented.
I didn't lose respect for any of them. Times were different, we've all done things we aren't proud of. I'm sure the drug use exaggerated a lot of the behavior, as well as the recall of what happened. It's all settled now, so I'm sure they have pretty much put this chapter to bed. The band continues on.

Ive always been a dreamer

09-09-2011, 08:52 PM

Very well stated, Topkat.

And don't worry - no one ruffles any feathers on the board for respectfully stating their opinion. We love good-spirited debate and discussion here. You just have to make sure that if you give your opinion, there may be someone who will disagree and challenge you. As long as you are prepared for that, it's all good.

And the band continues on indeed! :thumbsup:

VAisForEagleLovers

09-10-2011, 01:46 AM

I just finished H&H and reading between the lines, I'll say this. He admittedly didn't care and didn't do well in school. In his entire life up to joining the Eagles, he never really did do one thing on his own. Look at the year or so he spent in NY eating zucchini, just waiting for someone else to do something for him. Then he joins the Eagles and his role, as he sees it, is to be a referee and to not rock the boat. In other words, he was perfectly content to have Glenn and Don do all the groundwork and think out the strategies, etc., then reap the rewards of the millions coming in. He didn't like the fact they made decisions without him having the opportunity to nod his head up and down and say 'whatever'.

He's a very talented musician, but he always took the path of least resistance. He never admits to actually talking to his wife about their problems, he just left. And it doesn't escape me that he didn't really push the money issue with Eagles Ltd until he saw half his earning disappearing to his soon-to-be-ex-wife. It stands to reason that the first time he ever stepped out of the path of least resistance, he'd mangle it.

As far as there not being much 'Heaven' to the story, that fault can probably be laid at the feet of the publisher. His co-writer and editor both did a very poor job. There are glaring inaccuracies. In one chapter, he says he had no communication with his parents and five sentences later he says they were trying to talk him into something. There are many literary do-not-do's in phrasing and editing. I'm sure if he had more 'heaven' glimpses in there, they'd have taken them out. It's the criticism of the gods that sells the book.

EaglesKiwi

09-10-2011, 02:58 AM

As far as there not being much 'Heaven' to the story, that fault can probably be laid at the feet of the publisher. His co-writer and editor both did a very poor job. There are glaring inaccuracies. In one chapter, he says he had no communication with his parents and five sentences later he says they were trying to talk him into something. There are many literary do-not-do's in phrasing and editing. I'm sure if he had more 'heaven' glimpses in there, they'd have taken them out. It's the criticism of the gods that sells the book.
VA, I pretty much concur with all your comments, but I thought I'd add to the writing/editing/publishing comments. I happened to get this book and Marc Elliot's "To The Limit" - published about 10 years earlier - out of the library at the same time. I felt Felder's book basically copied a LOT of stuff from the earlier book. Yes I realise they're talking about the same situations, but where I expected Felder to have personal commentary on these scenes, it just wasn't there.

VAisForEagleLovers

09-10-2011, 11:05 AM

I agree Kiwi, and I meant to mention that and it was late and I was tired, you know how it goes! But yes, in the intro, she even thanks Marc Eliot for providing details for 'when Don's memory failed'. You can tell where those sections are, the pacing and phrasing are all different. It's like a different voice speaking. So not even taking into account the actual content of what he had to say, it was a very poorly done book.

I just read Pete Sampras's book last weekend and that wasn't written well either (and the content somewhat worse, I lost a lot of respect for him after reading it). So I'm wondering why publishers are blaming the recession for poor sales. Their editors have fallen asleep at the wheel.

sodascouts

09-10-2011, 11:33 AM

How lame that a so-called "insider's perspective" uses crib notes from another book!

VAisForEagleLovers

09-10-2011, 12:09 PM

How lame that a so-called "insider's perspective" uses crib notes from another book!

Tell me about it. I saw that intro in the Amazon preview and still bought the book. I'm not sure what I was thinking, it should have been a clue.

After thinking about it overnight, I think he summed up the problem between he and Glenn when he mentions how ambitious Glenn was (and is). Felder was not ambitious. I've never met Glenn, so I certainly don't know him, but few ambitious people relate well to people with talent and skills that are not ambitious.

I hope any budding musicians out there will read this and see that Felder's 'barely getting by' in school did not serve him well later in life. He trusted those smarter than him and he admits he couldn't comprehend the documents he was given to read before signing.

It's a shame, but throughout the book, I can't see where he put much effort into anything.

Ive always been a dreamer

09-11-2011, 12:52 PM

Well - I'll just say that as one who has complained that 'heaven' doesn't get equal representation in the book, I know that the dirt and juicier 'hell' material is interesting to folks. However, I was disappointed that he basically rehashed what we already knew instead of giving us more insight about what went down.

As for the 'heaven' part, I believe a lot of folks would love to hear more about the times the band was really clicking - about some of the really fun memories. For example, I really enjoy listening to the Random Victims outtakes on Selected Works when all of the guys seem to really be enjoying themselves. As I've said before, I especially would have loved to have had more stories about the band after the HFO resumption. I know the dirt sells, but this is about the Eagles. I think there are lots and lots of folks out there that would buy pretty much anything related to the band.

GettheLeadonOut!!

09-12-2011, 01:50 PM

Brooke

09-12-2011, 04:31 PM

What intrigued me, as I've stated before, was how Felder owes so much of his career (and livelihood) to Bernie who encouraged him for 5 or 6 years to move to L.A. where the scene was really happening. When he finally comes out, Bernie hooks him up with his management (who got him gigs with David Blue) and then hooks him up with his band (who ends up making an equal parts member!).

And then Bernie left! I always wondered about that too! :headscratch:

sodascouts

09-12-2011, 05:45 PM

Bernie was the one who didn't think it was a good idea to make Felder an equal partner, despite the fact that Bernie was his friend. Why? The answer is simple. The sober Mr. Leadon had more good sense than the other guys, who were probably making these decisions over lines of cocaine. While they were concerned with feeling good, he was thinking seriously about the future repercussions of such a move and realizing it would lead to trouble. Regardless of his feelings of friendship for Felder, he knew a bad idea when he heard it. I'm sure Glenn and Henley have kicked themselves thoroughly and repeatedly for not heeding his advice. lol

Freypower

09-12-2011, 07:03 PM

Interesting point about Felder's general mallaise in his early years. What intrigued me, as I've stated before, was how Felder owes so much of his career (and livelihood) to Bernie who encouraged him for 5 or 6 years to move to L.A. where the scene was really happening. When he finally comes out, Bernie hooks him up with his management (who got him gigs with David Blue) and then hooks him up with his band (who ends up making an equal parts member!).

Don't get me wrong, he is an incredible guitarist and his work with Joe is amazing, but the dude is a whiner and an ingrate. I'm sure Glenn was sick of dealing with him. Wish he could be more graceful about it, like Bernie and Randy, but it took getting shitcanned to get the fire back in his belly.

I would disagree that he got the fire back in his belly after he was fired. What has he actually done? (I'm not talking about the book or lawsuit; I'm talking about the years since). He has played some corporate gigs, played a few solo shows which are prominently billed as 'an evening at the Hotel California', stolen Frey & Henley band members, and worked incessantly on an album which may or may not be released. If that is fire in the belly it is very slow burning. I know this is harsh; I would like to see some actual physical evidence of Felder's creativity.

sodascouts

09-13-2011, 03:04 AM

I think being fired from the band did inspire him creatively in the sense that he is making his first solo album in over 20 years. That's nothing to sneeze at, even if it is going slowly.

As far as "stealing" band members - come on! Those men make their own choices. Nobody forced them to leave off backing Henley or Frey in order to back Felder. It might be as simple as the fact that Felder plays more gigs on a regular basis.

Freypower

09-13-2011, 07:13 PM

Well I'm not sure if you mean ever since the beginning or just since he left the band but I'd say coming up with the music to the Eagles biggest hit is pretty creative. I'm sure you know the story about the beach house and how he came up with those opening chords and then came up with the fills and recorded both solos and then Joe did his own thing on it with the idea of the ending harmony leads. So he does have some creativity. And I'm sure he's contributed to other songs of the Eagles such as the One Of These Nights guitar solo, and other parts of Eagles tunes. He worked with Glenn on the harmony solos on "Already Gone". That was one of the first things he did with the Eagles, also playing slide on "Good Day In Hell".

Since his departure he has mainly done solo shows. He does have a solo album coming out soon so I guess we will see what he is capable of as a solo musician without the other guys helping him out. That will be a good indicator I think. I do think he's very talented. Maybe not a songwriter - but a great guitarist.

I'm not sure if I've published my thoughts on the book but I do respect him and admire him for his guitar playing. But he admittedly did come off a bit as playing the "victim" role a bit too much. But one cannot deny his talent or the fact he wrote the music to Hotel California. You couple that with Henley's brilliant songwriting and lyrical abilities (and the way his songs are like photographs and the way it's like a movie playing in your head, at least for me) and you get what I consider to be the best song ever written. Henley is the only one who can write songs to where when I listen to them I can visualize the story and it's like a movie playing. When I listen to HC or LITFL I can picture exactly what he is talking about and see it - it's spooky. I never questioned what HC was about. I knew it was the LA lifestyle. HC is a concept album about the LA life and the excesses. Just like Desperado is a concept album about Western.

Austin, please read my post again. I said 'since the book & lawsuit'.

Oh, and three people wrote Hotel California. Not two.

GlennLover

09-13-2011, 07:59 PM

Oh, and three people wrote Hotel California. Not two.

I'm glad you mentioned that FP! :thumbsup: I'm tired of reading that Don Felder wrote the music & Don Henley wrote the words. I don't know why, but I have read quite a few articles about HC in the last while that don't mention Glenn's contribution at all. I've heard Don H say that he & Glenn did research together for the song by visiting various hotels. I may be wrong, but from what Glenn says when he is asked what HC is about, it appears that he came up with the general concept for the song (as he has with many of the songs he has co-written).

Ive always been a dreamer

09-13-2011, 10:19 PM

I agree that Glenn is often given the short end of the songwriting credit for Hotel California. And to tie this back to Felder's book, even he unsurprisingly gives most of the credit to Don. Yet on the other hand, he states that Don and Glenn wrote the lyrics in secret, so if that's the case, I'm a bit confused about how he claims to know who wrote them. It is well documented by both Glenn and Don that they both wrote the lyrics for the song.

sodascouts

09-14-2011, 01:53 AM

As far as Hotel California - I'm not going to get into it too much but I'm afraid I can tell a Henley song from a Frey song by the way it's written. Maybe you can't. I'm well aware that Glenn came up with the concept but those are Henley's words. He AND only he has a way of making the words play out like a movie and the way they are constructed is classic Don Henley. I'll argue that to the death. I'm not just saying that because that is what Don Felder has said. I'm not taking his side in any of this. I'm just saying what I know & believe. Agree to disagree I'm afraid on this one. Those lyrics spell out "HENLEY" plain as day. Maybe since you aren't that into the construction of music you couldn't tell that - I don't know. But if you look at Henley's songs you can begin to see a pattern in the way they are constructed and his gift in the ability to make his lyrics into pictures in your head and a movie almost.

Sweetie, I sincerely do not want to upset you, but Glenn and Don themselves say they wrote it together! Glenn is listed on the songwriting credits of the album! So either they are lying and this is all an elaborate ruse concocted before the album was even released...or you are mistaken.

The Disco Strangler

09-14-2011, 04:58 PM

This is a great discussion. It took me a bit to read through it all. I'm new to the Eagles, so it was great to crack open a book from a former member's perspective.

EaglesKiwi

09-17-2011, 04:38 AM

+1

Those guys are what they call "session players". They bounce around from artist to artist backing them up. They aren't in any one particular band. They are sidemen. They basically go to whoever is going to pay them the most to play for a tour, and then when that tour finishes they go find someone else to pay them to play for them. Hell, they'd probably play for Justin Bieber if the money was right.
I would add: sometimes (often?) who they play for depends on scheduling. If somebody is doing a long tour far away that's a very different job prospect to somebody doing a handful of concerts near your home town. And that may be a bigger factor than money.

EaglesKiwi

09-17-2011, 04:46 AM

EaglesKiwi

09-17-2011, 04:58 AM

My third post - I'm being greedy! I looked for a more appropriate thread for these comments, but didn't find one.

Overall comments on Don Felder: very talented musician who contributed a lot to the Eagles. Would he have achieved as much if he had been with any other band? I don't think he would have, no matter how talented he is.

Two things I think are key to his success:

1. the very high standards demanded by the Eagles that I personally believe drove him to continually better himself - even if at the time he saw it as himself trying to get pats on the head from the gods...

2. a songwriting team that could take Felder's contributions and make something great from them. No matter how good your music may be, it's the combination of music WITH LYRICS that really makes a standout song.

And possibly something else he may not have had with other groups: he was allowed his moments to shine. He mentioned in his book that he had been doing session work for CSN before joining the Eagles. Would CSN - or anyone else - have allowed him to become a full band member? Would they have allowed him extended solos in the spotlight? I don't know... but I do know that for any of us to succeed we need more than just talent, we also need opportunity (whether we're given it or make it ourselves).

EaglesKiwi

09-17-2011, 05:00 AM

Scheduling does matter too but money is a BIG factor when it comes to these session players. I know from talking to a handful of them that they will pretty much play for any artist if the money was right.
Absolutely, for many of them. I was also thinking (& didn't actually put in my post, d'oh!) that there are probably scheduling conflicts too that drive their decision-making.

Topkat

09-17-2011, 05:12 PM

As for the part about Bernie objecting to the 5 way split. This was because Bernie said it wasn't fair because Don F. just joined the band & I believe only played on a few of the songs on this LP (On the Border). Irv then suggested a 1/5 of the cuts he played on for the "On The Border" album & then a 5 way split after that. Seems Glenn stood up for Felder on this deal.

Freypower

09-18-2011, 06:34 PM

I don't want to re-open a controversial discussion (oh who am I kidding!). My thoughts on HC are:

Don Henley probably wrote most - but not all - of the words.
Glenn probably contributed structure and completion. From what I have heard/read this seems to be one of the ways the partnership works often for them.

(And as a mother who has helped out on homework, I have to say that bringing structure and completion is a very significant role on any project!!).

I would think that both Joe and Glenn contributed musically too.

Going back to Felder's book: although he gives Henley credit when he first talks about HC in detail, he does refer at later times to himself having written HC - without specifying that he wrote the music but not the lyrics. I would have preferred him to say "when I wrote the music for HC" even if it has already been acknowledged earlier in the book. But maybe I'm finicky.

Joe is not listed as a songwriter on the song Hotel California.

This idea that Glenn brought the 'structure and completion' but didn't actually write any words (and yet you say you think Henley wrote most, but 'not all' the words) seems unfair to me where Glenn is concerned. He can write lyrics. He just seems never to be given any credit for them. He and Don have never claimed, as they have for The Last Resort, that Don wrote 100% of the Hotel California lyric.

EaglesKiwi

09-18-2011, 11:44 PM

Joe is not listed as a songwriter on the song Hotel California.

This idea that Glenn brought the 'structure and completion' but didn't actually write any words (and yet you say you think Henley wrote most, but 'not all' the words) seems unfair to me where Glenn is concerned. He can write lyrics. He just seems never to be given any credit for them. He and Don have never claimed, as they have for The Last Resort, that Don wrote 100% of the Hotel California lyric.
Sorry, I've re-read my post and it didn't quite come out the way I intended. I do think Glenn contributed to the lyrics - I just think DH wrote MORE of the lyrics. And if anything, I think people are unfair to Glenn when they undervalue the work involved in bringing structure and completion to a song.

Musically, I think there is a bit of input from everyone on many of the songs. How much input counts as a "songwriting credit" I'm not sure. The whole songwriting process - from initial ideas to completion - is one of the things I'd be interested in hearing/seeing if they bring out the 40th anniversary DVD.

Prettymaid

09-20-2011, 06:17 PM

Musically, I think there is a bit of input from everyone on many of the songs. How much input counts as a "songwriting credit" I'm not sure. The whole songwriting process - from initial ideas to completion - is one of the things I'd be interested in hearing/seeing if they bring out the 40th anniversary DVD.

I've often wondered this too. How does the process work? For example, in the case of HC, did they all get together and Glenn say,

"Okay, Felder has written a bitchin' riff and Henley and I worked out some lyrics. Just listen to it all the way through once and then we'll play it again and you fill in your parts, okay?"

Or does it go more like,

Felder: Okay Joe, while I'm playing this part (plays that part) you play this. (Plays Joe's part)

The latter seems sort of patronizing to someone of Joe's calliber; however if it happened more like the first one why wouldn't Joe have gotten songwriting credit? I guess just the process of figuring out ones parts does not warrent a s/w credit.

Scarlet Sun

09-20-2011, 07:28 PM

Legally speaking, the only copyrightable components of a song are the melody and lyrics. However, I would say that most songwriters definitely consider the creator of a song's chord progression as having contributed integrally to its composition. For example, Felder wrote the chord progression of HC. Some would say a riff is integral, especially if a song is built around it, like Joe's opening riff for LITL. Also regarding HC, I think I once heard Glenn saying in a vintage radio interview that his contribution to the song was that he helped write the chorus.

chaim

09-22-2011, 05:40 PM

Did Don (Felder) write the HC vocal melodies also? If Don and Glenn wrote the melodies, it is certainly wrong to say that Felder wrote all the music. The chorus melody, especially, who wrote that? It's probably the greatest hook in the song. Felder has said that he had melodic ideas for "Victim of love", but I haven't heard/seen him say that about HC.

Topkat

09-22-2011, 06:06 PM

I think it's been documented that Felder wrote all the music, including all the guitar parts, & the lyrics were Don & Glenn.

In the book see pages 171-172 where Felder describes the way it happened. They were listening to the stuff Felder had on his tape & when (HC-music) came on, they (I believe Frey/ Henley) both loved it. Frey came up with the idea that "This could be a fantasy of California. I can see this guy driving down a desert highway at night in a convertible and seeing the lights of LA way off on the horizon"
Henley took that image & expanded it to the guy seeing a hotel in the distance .....he ran with the idea that Frey came up with.
So lyrics were both Frey/Henley, with Frey starting the idea & Henley running with it.

perlmonk68

02-08-2012, 04:39 PM

I have just read this book and it appears that I am the last to do so. "Johnny Come Lately.."

I really felt as though I got to know Felder on a somewhat personal level in this book. The first part of the book was actually very enjoyable: from growing up in Gainesville, family life, how he got his first guitar, listening to holy roller music, how he met his friends, the friends he had who "made it" in the business, the famous people he met, how he met his wife, to form bands, to form Flow. I will never eat a zucchini again thanks to Felder. I have always liked Felder and have always enjoyed his guitar mastery. After reading this book, I will continue to like Felder and appreciate his music. I don't think less of any of the other band members.

When the book moves into his tenure with the Eagles, I guess my word of caution would be "Your Co-Workers are NOT necessarily your friends". In Felder's case, the last true friend he had in the band walked out in 1975 which was Leadon. From then on, like it or not, he was dealing with co-workers. Did his co-workers think of him as a friend? Maybe, Maybe not, or Maybe sometimes. In 1974 when he came to the Eagles, there were four founding members. When he was asked to join the band they almost had to offer him 1/5 stake in the band so he would know he was a full member. In reality, Felder hadn't struggled at the Troubadour with these guys. He wasn't there in 1971 backing up Linda Ronstadt when the four decided to go on their own and take that risk. That was mighty generous of the Eagles to give him 1/5. When Bernie and Randy left, Joe and Tim were NOT given the 1/5 Bernie and Randy disposed of. It ended up being two founders and Felder each owning 1/3. If I were Glenn, or Don H, no matter how much I liked Felder, I would have some resentment and some regret for agreeing to give him that stake. Did Felder upgrade the Eagles sound? Of course he did. Did Glenn and Don H like Felder's talent? Of course they did, otherwise they wouldn't have hired him. IMHO, I think Glenn and Don H even liked Felder as a person back then, otherwise they would have not given him full stake in Eagles Ltd in the first place... he would have been just a sideman. Perhaps it would have been easier for Felder if Joe and Tim would have had the 1/5 of Eagles Ltd upon joining the band. That way, they would have been able to relate to Felder's frustration. Unfortunately, it is what it is: Miscommunication and Frustration. Contracts that should have been redrawn and cleaned up by Azoff, but weren't until 1994. Glenn was right when he said that Felder should be dealing with Azoff on contractual inquiries. If Glenn had been the business manager, then by all means, but in this case No! Azoff handled those affairs.

As far as the "teasing", the "ignoring" and tour frustration: Try touring with the same folks for 11 months straight and see how you like it. I have been on summer breaks (which only lasted a week) with friends who have gotten on my nerves. Remember, in the case with the Eagles, we're dealing with Co-workers. People want privacy and may not want to be around co-workers all the time, or they may become bored with the same people. If I was working on a business trip and a co-worker wanted to show me his report (in this case Felder was showing Glenn a guitar lick), I may ask him to hang on for many different reasons especially if I was focused on my own project. Totally reasonable.

The book just solidifies the fact that Glenn and Don H had a professional relationship with Felder, not so much a personal one. It is not what I would give the definition of "friends". I'm sure they liked him and felt he helped the business. I'm sorry Felder got fired, but he didn't contribute what Glenn and Don H did and contracts should have been redrawn after Meisner left. Felder wasn't at the Troubadour, he wasn't at Dan Tana's wondering what the next move was. He joined an established band where, he should have seen, Glenn Frey and Don Henley were the leaders...emerging if not assumed by 1974. Maybe after a couple of years, Felder wore on Glenn and Don H to the point where they just tolerated him. Felder isn't going to tell you that... he may have not had the knowledge to tell you that.

Like I said earlier, I still like Don Felder as a person and I like his music. I hope to see him join up with an established 70s band that will make him more than just a sideman. I appreciated what Felder did for the Eagles and will miss him. I think Felder confused "co-worker relationships" with "friendship" and history shows he is not the only one to do so. Unfortunately, he felt he deserved the same money given to Glenn and Don H as part of an earlier contract that had never been dealt with properly by Azoff. I agree with Joe and Tim that Felder had the Eagles pedigree and good money and should have been happy with that. Remember: He was making a boat load of money. When he forced the contractual issues, he lost his membership with the Eagles...the only company he had known: His identity for 26 1/2 years. Do you think the Eagles would have postponed Hell Freezes Over if Felder held out? Of course not. When I think of the Rolling Stones, it's Jagger and Richards...when I think of the Eagles, it's Frey and Henley.

All of this coming from a Timothy B Schmit fan.

Be Well,

Perlmonk68

timfan

02-08-2012, 04:55 PM

Thank You Perlmonk for such a well thought out and reasonable post :) I totally agree with everything you've said!

I think you really hit it on the head with the difference between friends and co workers. It is error made by many and not just in the entertainment industry ;)

sodascouts

02-09-2012, 12:03 AM

You make perfect sense, pm68. Well said!

Scarlet Sun

02-09-2012, 12:55 AM

I think Joe and Timothy got a full share of profits when they joined, but not ownership. Is that correct?

edit: see second-to-last paragraph:

http://www.superseventies.com/sw_hotelcalifornia.html

EaglesKiwi

02-09-2012, 02:49 AM

PM68, thank you for such a thoughtful, thought-provoking post. And welcome to the Border. :rockon:

chaim

02-09-2012, 06:05 AM

An interesting post, perlmonk68. And indeed, welcome! Don talks about the guys in Chicago spending time together in their time off. It seems to me that that's more like an exception than a rule when it comes to relationships between band members. I'm sure most of them, like you said, are like any co-workers.

perlmonk68

02-09-2012, 11:51 AM

All - Thanks for the warm welcome.

@Scarlet - I'm going based on what Felder said in the book. Thanks for sharing that link. That was very generous of the Eagles to give Tim that kind of profit when he joined, especially since he didn't play on the album. As you know, Tim had a great track record with Poco: "From the Inside", "Restrain", "I Can See Everything", "Passing Through", "Just Call My Name", etc. Glenn and Don H. knew he could just step in and fill the empty spot Randy vacated. Randy is very talented and I don't want to take anything away from him, but IMHO, Tim was an upgrade. (I'm trying to reel myself back and be fair...I'm very Pro-Tim).

@Chaim - I'll try to be brief as this is a slight tangent off the thread subject. Life wasn't always so great with Chicago. Terry Kath accidentally shot himself in '77. I can see where members huddled together after that. Perhaps true friendships cultivated from such a tragic event. In the early 80s, members became resentful towards Pete Cetera. In fact promoters wanted to bill them "Peter Cetera and Chicago" when Bobby Lamm (the true founder) and others had contributed so much. It eventually resulted in Cetera's departure which I understand was mutual. In 1990, Bill Champlain and Jason Scheff (Cetera's replacement) wanted original drummer Danny Serephane gone. So Chicago isn't all about picnics.

Topkat

02-09-2012, 01:26 PM

PM68

The book just solidifies the fact that Glenn and Don H had a professional relationship with Felder, not so much a personal one. It is not what I would give the definition of "friends". I'm sure they liked him and felt he helped the business. I'm sorry Felder got fired, but he didn't contribute what Glenn and Don H did and contracts should have been redrawn after Meisner left. Felder wasn't at the Troubadour, he wasn't at Dan Tana's wondering what the next move was. He joined an established band where, he should have seen, Glenn Frey and Don Henley were the leaders...emerging if not assumed by 1974. Maybe after a couple of years, Felder wore on Glenn and Don H to the point where they just tolerated him. Felder isn't going to tell you that... he may have not had the knowledge to tell you that.

PM68; I agree with much of you have posted but the paragraph above is one I have some disagreement with.
There were times where Henley & Frey were not the best of friends, in fact not even speaking to each other. During "One of These Nights" Frey was more of the bands leader, but after this he & Henley battled for control of the band. After this Henley moved to the front, becoming the Eagles creative force. By the time they toured for "Hotel California" in Jan '77 the competition really heated up. During the rehearsals, they argued until one of them stormed off the stage. On the tour, all communications were done through the Roadie Captains. The crew called the tour "Prison California". Glenn & Randy were also fighting, which lead to Randy's quitting at the end of the tour.
I think fans would like to think of them as being friends, but the friendships were strained by the touring, the pressure they were under & the use of drugs that made it all worse.
My opinion is that maybe they did all start out as friends, but like many have said, I think that they became co-workers & business partners.
I don't think they spent much time together unless they were working.
The deal that was made with Felder, was made when they formed a corporation. No one knows what the terms of their contracts were, but when Felder had questions about the money, it all blew up.
Just because Don Felder wasn't an original Eagle, his contract was for the 1/5. I don't think he was confusing the friendships with the business part of their deal. Maybe the contracts should have been redrawn, but they weren't & that wasn't Felder's fault.

chaim

02-09-2012, 04:16 PM

All - Thanks for the warm welcome.

@Chaim - I'll try to be brief as this is a slight tangent off the thread subject. Life wasn't always so great with Chicago. Terry Kath accidentally shot himself in '77. I can see where members huddled together after that. Perhaps true friendships cultivated from such a tragic event. In the early 80s, members became resentful towards Pete Cetera. In fact promoters wanted to bill them "Peter Cetera and Chicago" when Bobby Lamm (the true founder) and others had contributed so much. It eventually resulted in Cetera's departure which I understand was mutual. In 1990, Bill Champlain and Jason Scheff (Cetera's replacement) wanted original drummer Danny Serephane gone. So Chicago isn't all about picnics.

Yeah I know that stuff about Chicago as I'm a fan, especially of Mr. Lamm's. I love his voice and the edge in his writing. I don't think he ever lost it, but it wasn't allowed to come through in the 80's. And obviously when Terry wasn't there anymore, Robert was alone musically in those surroundings. But anyway, that's what Don Felder saw and envied, because he wrote about it in his book.

Ive always been a dreamer

02-09-2012, 08:42 PM

EaglesKiwi

02-10-2012, 05:38 AM

Great post, PM68.

As far as the contracts for the band members, I really don't believe that Felder would have ever been happy with anything other than an equal share with Frey and Henley based on everything I have read and heard him say. When Felder's contract was renegotiated in 1994, he wasn't happy at all. Even though he signed it in order to rejoin the band for HFO, it seemed to be a constant source of conflict that was never resolved until he was ultimately fired. The terms of the 1994 contracts were: Frey and Henley got 2/7's apiece, and Felder, Schmit, and Walsh each got 1/7.
I personally think the 1994 split was reasonable. As valuable as Felder's contribution was (or Walsh's, or Schmit's) I don't feel they were equal with Frey's and Henley's contributions as songwriters, arrangers, musical directors etc. And let's be realistic - the Eagles would NEVER have gotten back together without both Frey and Henley - in which case, Felder's 1/5 share (or even his 1/3 share of Eagles Corporation) would have been worth diddly squat. He would have continued to earn royalties, but surely sales got a substantial boost after HFO.

WalshFan88

02-10-2012, 02:29 PM

As valuable as Felder's contribution was (or Walsh's, or Schmit's) I don't feel they were equal with Frey's and Henley's contributions as songwriters, arrangers, musical directors etc.

I agree.... Although I don't think they are replaceable either, at least not easily so as they have helped form that "classic rock" era Eagles sound.... As good as Stu Smith is, he's not Don Felder. And I can't imagine them trying to replace Walsh. While I totally agree Henley and Frey are the ones who are the songwriters and should therefore have a bit more profit, I don't think they are truly replaceable though either. I think those three were/are a huge part of the Eagles later 70s-90s sound. I'm not saying they can't be replaced, they obviously did that with Felder but what I mean is they can never "truly" be replaced as they will always be important and IMO there will always be something missing without them. All three of those guys had their own playing style and chemistry they brought to the Eagles and IMO it is hard to truly replace them. You can get someone to fill their spot, but it won't be the same.

In a way, it's like your pet dying. You can't truly replace them. Sure, you can get another pet, but it will never be (insert pet name here).

Hope that makes sense.

Brooke

02-10-2012, 03:16 PM

pm68, thanks so much for your thoughts here and I agree with you completely.

I'm one that hasn't missed Felder yet. Yes, I think he's an amazing guitarist, but Stu has filled the bill for me. Don't get me wrong, I loved his work when with the band and the fantastic songs he worked on and I've loved this band since the beginning and I first heard Take It Easy on the radio. And I wish him all the best.

But obviously, most people think the Eagles are still quite amazing when you look at their tour sales figures. We still have Glenn and Don H, who will always be The Eagles. Sorry Glenn! :wink: :shrug:

EaglesKiwi

02-11-2012, 04:56 AM

I can't imagine losing any of the current 4 Eagles. They all now have a place in my affections.

Felder is a fantastic musician, and made an incredible contribution to the Eagles. But the Eagles were great before he joined, and are outstanding now.

For all his comments about how he was the one who brought the most songs each time they got together for an album, I think it's telling that there are only about 6 songs that made it onto albums that he is a co-author of.

To all the people wondering - and it's a legitimate question - "Would the Eagles have had as much success without Felder?", I have to say, "Would Felder have had as much success without the Eagles?"

Topkat

02-11-2012, 10:04 AM

I am one of those who does miss Don Felder. When I watch the concerts with him & without him, I see the difference. He's not just a great guitar player, he's a phenomenal guitar player & his solos are just not the same. I also miss the jams with Joe Walsh. Go watch "Turn to Stone" for an example of the chemistry between these two. These two together were a rare combination of magic. Anyone who has seen it, knows that the songs had more depth & a harder rock edge with Felder.

I also love Joe & Tim, & they both add so much to the band. I do not consider the Eagles Don & Glenn. In the live shows....the audience just goes NUTS when Joe does one of his songs. As for Tim, well there is no better singer than him. Whether he's doing one of his few leads, or doing harmony vocals, he just makes every song better. It's no surprise that he is asked to sing on so many other artists recordings, because he adds something special to every song, no matter how subtle it is, it's there. I could never see replacing either of them.

I think the other Eagles have written good songs & brought them to the table & were tossed by Don & Glenn, which is what became battles over the control of the band. I think Felder brought in songs, that maybe Glenn & Don didn't want to do, so he never had the chance to have more of his songs on the albums.

I am interested to hear Felder's new album. The only down side to Felder is that his voice is not as good as the rest, which could be the problem with his solo work, but as a musician & guitar player, he is one of the best.

VAisForEagleLovers

02-11-2012, 12:07 PM

As Glenn said, most of the songs Felder brought to the table were a series of guitar solos with no room for other instrumentation, melody or lyrics. Kind of hard to use such a song without a major rewrite and if it's majorly rewritten, then might as well start from scratch.

As for the question on how well Felder would have done without the Eagles, according to his own book, he was stuck in a farmhouse in rural NY with no prospects and apparently lacking the gumption to go somewhere where he could get back on track. Then Bernie called.

chaim

02-11-2012, 12:08 PM

Perhaps even more than his guitar playing I miss Felder's smile. That warm smile was a great addition to Eagles concerts. I remember the first time I saw the band during the "resumption tour". They played Hotel California and Felder was smiling throughout the verses and singing the lyrics to himself as he played.

Ive always been a dreamer

02-11-2012, 02:16 PM

Well, I have said before that I do think Felder brought something to the live performances that is lacking now. Sadly, I never got to see him live, but in all of the video I've watched (which, yes, is a LOT), the way he and Joe played off one another was something special to watch. Steuart's stage presence is much more low key, but in fairness, that may be intentional since he is not an official Eagle.

I don't consider the band all Frey and Henley either, although I think it's safe to say the band would cease to exist without either of them. However, the analogy I've used before is that the Eagles are like a cake recipe. Some ingredients are more important than others, but if you leave anything out, you can tell the difference. And some ingredients can be substituted for others without much degradation in quality, but not all of them. At this point in the band's history, if is doubtful that any of the remaining four members would be replaced.

Regarding if Felder could have been as successful without the Eagles, I can only go by what he's done before and since he left the band, and, of course, the answer is no. But, again, in trying to be fair, I think that is true of all the band members. Even though Henley, Frey, and Walsh all were pretty successful on their own, they didn't have the success they had in the Eagles, which goes back the point that it's the combination of their talents that makes the Eagles so special.

As far as Frey and Henley tossing good songs that the others wrote, I can only say, look at their track record. Maybe the Eagles wouldn't have been as special if they had recorded those discarded songs instead of the ones that they did. It's hard for me to argue with their success.

Topkat

02-11-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote from VAisforEagleLovers:

As for the question on how well Felder would have done without the Eagles, according to his own book, he was stuck in a farmhouse in rural NY with no prospects and apparently lacking the gumption to go somewhere where he could get back on track. Then Bernie called.

In all fairness, this was in the early 70's & Felder had just gotten married to a girl from the east coast. Bernie called and told him to come to LA. I have no doubt that if he hadn't hooked up with the Eagles, he would have hooked up with some other band. There's no telling where he would have gone. Bernie was a friend of his, so he eventually ended up in the Eagles, but I think he could have been successful elsewhere. He also knew Tom Petty.

Lisa

02-16-2012, 08:14 PM

Don Felder's such a wonderful guitarist. That is a long time ago.

shanelle lee

04-06-2012, 01:25 AM

I finished reading Don's book last weekend. It took me half a day. I just couldn't put it down. I have read another couple of books about the Eagles and was interested to hear what Felder had to say. It's good to compare all the comments and articles that have been written about the boys and their music. I have to say I think no matter what, Don Henley comes across to me as being something of a gentleman. I think that Henley's lyrics say a lot about him. He is an educated person [I'm not sure that he graduated from University but I know he did a lot of study]. Also, I think he mustn't be too bad as a person because he wouldn't have been as successful as a solo artist. Karma?

I think that Felder's book presented a lot of sour grapes on his part and a lot of a victim mentality. The good thing is that we, the public, have this information now and can make some perhaps halfway accurate judgements about the Eagles by reading between the lines of Felder's story. What got me was that apparently Felder and Joe Walsh were going to form a band with Randy but after Randy left, Don and Joe backed off. Then, who is the first person Felder runs to after he's fired? Randy Meisner! I found that information very interesting. Something that won my ongoing respect for Don Henley [I always liked and respected him but more after this]. Don found out that Don Felder and Joe backed out of forming a band with Randy - Joe must have had a lot to do with this - Don called Joe a big trouble maker [not verbatim] but I don't think Don Henley is a fool or without compassion. I'm sure he and Glen would have been disappointed to lose Randy especially after everything they had been through over the years.

shanelle lee

04-06-2012, 01:35 AM

I really like the comments made in number 13 in this thread. I concur!

sodascouts

04-06-2012, 12:19 PM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Wow, I can't believe that in a few months, it will have been five years since Felder's book came out!

shanelle lee

04-06-2012, 05:33 PM

I only became aware of Don Felder's book a couple of weeks ago. The next door neighbours were playing The Eagles Greatest Hits and I thought I would search the web to see what the band has been up to the last couple of years. I lost interest when Hell Freezes Over resumption happened because I felt it was a big cop-out by the Eagles.

chaim

04-15-2012, 02:48 AM

I've been rereading this book again. I don't remember this being discussed, but once again I found myself wondering what Don's talking about when he mentions On The Border containing fifteen songs. Or was it fourteen? Anyway, he says that Don and Glenn were credited in nine of them.
I've only ever seen a ten-song version of the album. Has there been a version with more songs released?

Freypower

04-15-2012, 03:04 AM

I've just looked at the book & that is a major error, because there has never to my knowledge been a '14 track' version of On The Border (that's the number of tracks Felder quotes). He says that Henley sings 'five' tracks & Glenn 'four'. Henley sings lead or co-lead on four tracks, Glenn also four. Where he got this I have no idea.

And if you add up his number of lead vocals - Henley five, Frey four, Meisner two, Leadon one - guess what; that adds up to 12.

As for the writing credits on the actual album, Don & Glenn are credited on five tracks as writers either with others or in the case of GDIH just the two of them (interestingly that, my favourite song on the album, is the only song with the classic Henley-Frey credit).

Sadly this whole thing speaks volumes about the way Felder disregards basic facts in order to demonise Henley & Frey, despite the praise he lavishes on Henley's BOML vocal (there is of course, to counter this, not a word about Glenn's contributions).

whitcap

04-15-2012, 11:06 AM

chaim

04-15-2012, 11:24 AM

I know of four songs (Randy's Wait and See, Bernie's Georgia Peach, Glenn's Bad Man, and an unknown song written by Richie Furay) that didn't make the final cut of On the Border. Those songs would've made the album 14 songs long.

Maybe Don remembered that they were included? That still doesn't add up to nine credits "shared by Don and Glenn" though.

whitcap

04-15-2012, 11:38 AM

That's true. Even if he included those there would still only be 4 credited to both Don and Glenn. It's probably just an error on Felder's part.

Freypower

04-15-2012, 05:48 PM

I thought about Wait & See & Georgia Peach, but the fact is they are not on the album.

BramwenR

07-06-2012, 04:30 PM

I have just started reading Don's book. I'm still up to his teenage years and I have to say, I'm loving reading about his growing up. It takes me back and I especially loved reading about his parents..the bit about the Chevy I thought was hilarious!!

I am just at the bit where he plays on stage with his new guitar. Looked at all the photos.

Am keeping an open mind about this book because so far I am enjoying his storytelling. The thing that sticks out for me is, the fact that he kind of missed out academically the way his brother did meant that he was destined for bigger and better things.

I borrowed this from the library, I thought the opening chapter set the mood for what the Eagles became in their early days.

I read some flak went down over this book and in fact, there is another one on the guys, Eagles:An American Band that is in the library too.

So when I'm finished I'll share my thoughts :thumbsup:

BramwenR

07-09-2012, 01:36 PM

Topkat

07-10-2012, 11:09 AM

I don't know whether this link has been posted before but I just found it yesterday:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2008/11/17/don-felder/

I thought it was pretty candid and am I the only one who didn't know about the third encore?? However the reason I mainly posted it is because of some of the comments...some for, some against but a few against Frey and Henley! There's one towards the bottom of the page that is absolutely priceless (if however very colourful!!)

I knew that they had sex parties, but I didn't know they were called the 3rd Encore until I read one of the other books on them. Bram, if you look at some of the old Eagles photos from the late 70's, you can see that Timothy is wearing a 3E button on his shirt. I was pretty shocked to see that!!!

GlennLover

07-10-2012, 12:29 PM

A while ago somebody was offering a 3E button for sale on ebay. Don't think that there were any takers from The Border, but we had fun commenting on the subject! :censored::laugh: :wink:

zeldabjr

07-10-2012, 01:40 PM

Topkat

07-10-2012, 03:35 PM

very interesting article...no I had never heard the term 3rd encore before, but had heard things were pretty wild...TK why would you be shocked at Timothy...he was a young hot guy in the greatest band in the world...I'd be shocked if he didn't partake in the festivities!

Oh I wouldn't be shocked that he participated at the parties, but I didn't think he would wear the button. From what I understood, they were given out to the hot girls at the shows, as a pass to the party. Besides, I thought Tim was married at that point, but I guess he was divorced & in between wives! LOL, or maybe he was still married. I'm not exactly sure when he split with his first wife.

SallyGee

07-10-2012, 04:10 PM

I always heard that Timothy didn't really hang out with the rest of the band between shows. He actually had the knickname the wanderer because he would just wander around by himself. So I choose to believe that our sweet Timothy did not partake of those "festivities".:nope:

Freypower

07-10-2012, 06:28 PM

Oh I wouldn't be shocked that he participated at the parties, but I didn't think he would wear the button. From what I understood, they were given out to the hot girls at the shows, as a pass to the party. Besides, I thought Tim was married at that point, but I guess he was divorced & in between wives! LOL, or maybe he was still married. I'm not exactly sure when he split with his first wife.

Felder was married when all this was going on too. :twisted:

I have no idea whether Tim did the Third Encore stuff but he isn't a saint.

Topkat

07-10-2012, 06:50 PM

Felder was married when all this was going on too. :twisted:

I have no idea whether Tim did the Third Encore stuff but he isn't a saint.

I'm pretty sure they all were involved in those parties, married or not!!
What rock star hasn't cheated on his wife or girlfriend??? I think that would be NONE! Women throw themselves at rock stars. The 70's & 80's were totally wild & the amount of drugs going around. Please. There was lots of cheating going on:angel:

BramwenR

07-10-2012, 07:30 PM

I knew that they had sex parties, but I didn't know they were called the 3rd Encore until I read one of the other books on them. Bram, if you look at some of the old Eagles photos from the late 70's, you can see that Timothy is wearing a 3E button on his shirt. I was pretty shocked to see that!!!

I have two other books to read on them and man, these 3E parties werre about as wild as they come!! I noticed that Felder very deftly sidestepped mentioning Tim at all during these "events" and he was still married, I believe..in fact there is no dirt written about Tim at all..is that photo in a thread here somewhere TK?? But I agree...if a hunk like Felder eventually gave in I very much doubt whether Tim knocked some back...no man knocks it back (in such large quantities), so I'm told!! :fainted::dizzy::ziplip: Maybe the drugs and booze but yeah, a hot young guy in the middle of all that, walking away from some lucrative offers?? Hmmm...

Topkat

07-10-2012, 08:31 PM

612

613

Click on them to show larger picture. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are pictures of him with those white overalls on with the 3E button...
So there it is folks!

BramwenR

07-11-2012, 01:04 AM

Ah, well I have seen both of these before but never took much notice of those little buttons before..but I have now!! I'm sure I'll locate those other ones in all the other pages here I haven't looked at ..God, what a chore having to go through and look at all those other photos of him :jawdrop: :lie:

zeldabjr

07-11-2012, 05:35 AM

612

613

Click on them to show larger picture. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are pictures of him with those white overalls on with the 3E button...
So there it is folks!

Darn, TK ..I'm not getting the pics when I click on them!!!:brickwall:

BramwenR

07-11-2012, 06:39 AM

I have just finished Don's book.

It was one of the most interesting, enjoyable, mindblowing books I have ever read. This is a clear example to me of how mega dollars, egos and control freaking manipulates the music industry.

I intend writing a review on my blog.

Also, I have to say - I will be looking at the DVD's (and any other earlier press publicity) with new eyes, especially the HFO one. I think Don is a very good storyteller and was dealt some very demeaning blows during his time with the band before he was unceremoniously dumped for daring to question the PTB.

It is a very powerful book which in my opinion, was written for all the right reasons. And I am disappointed that two band members whom he regarded as friends didn't stand by him in the end. I find that rather sad.

On another note: did anyone else notice that either by coincidence or design, the release date was close to the release of LROOE?

Quite frankly, I think he had cause to air his grievances. Just my HO.

Topkat

07-11-2012, 06:40 AM

Darn, TK ..I'm not getting the pics when I click on them!!!:brickwall:

Zelda, go in the TimothyBschmitOnline section, Photo Gallery; The Long Run Era. These 2 pictures are in there.

Right now, I can't find the other ones, but I know I have seen him wearing the button in a few other pictures! The button is really small, maybe about 1 inch or 1 1/2 inches. A white button, with 3E in black. I suddenly one day noticed it on that shirt & I went " On, crap, Tim, what are you wearing?" I don't think I have ever seen any of the other guys wearing the button.

TimothyBFan

07-11-2012, 07:48 AM

I have no idea whether Tim did the Third Encore stuff but he isn't a saint.

Did someone say he was?

As for all the shock and awe over the 3E buttons, willing to wager bets that all of them partook in the "festivities". They were mega stars, and therefore, given license to pretty much do whatever they wanted. Who cares!!!! Shoot---back in those days, I would of gladly taken one of those buttons!!! Of course I was jail bait, so....... :hilarious:

And wasn't it Ticky who was going to make all the Borderers 3E buttons quite awhile back. :hilarious: I'd wear my proudly!!!
In case you didn't see the above links, here's a few of those pics of Timothy and I believe there might be a couple more floating around somewhere.

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/TSchmitHardware.jpg

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/TSchmit1980.jpg

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/schmittlr.jpg

And here's a collage from EOC where you can also see a 3E button.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/eagles/Eagleswallpaper5.jpg

BramwenR

07-11-2012, 08:32 AM

I see the buttons fine but in Don's book he described them as black background with yellow text..unless I am mistaken. Whatever, it delivers the same message.

Back in the day anything went, they did whatever the hell they wanted because they could. All that adrenaline has to go somewhere after the show..and another thing...at least we know that none of them were gay!!:thumbsup::partytime:

Topkat

07-11-2012, 08:52 AM

I guess they made them in different colors! Thanks for finding the picture with the overalls. I knew I had seen the button on one of those pictures.
I want a 3E button!:hilarious:

zeldabjr

07-11-2012, 09:02 AM

I guess they made them in different colors! Thanks for finding the picture with the overalls. I knew I had seen the button on one of those pictures.
I want a 3E button!:hilarious:

OMG me too...I'd love one!!!

zeldabjr

07-11-2012, 09:05 AM

zeldabjr

07-11-2012, 09:11 AM

Did someone say he was?

As for all the shock and awe over the 3E buttons, willing to wager bets that all of them partook in the "festivities". They were mega stars, and therefore, given license to pretty much do whatever they wanted. Who cares!!!! Shoot---back in those days, I would of gladly taken one of those buttons!!! Of course I was jail bait, so....... :hilarious:

And wasn't it Ticky who was going to make all the Borderers 3E buttons quite awhile back. :hilarious: I'd wear my proudly!!!
In case you didn't see the above links, here's a few of those pics of Timothy and I believe there might be a couple more floating around somewhere.

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/TSchmitHardware.jpg

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/TSchmit1980.jpg

http://timothybschmitonline.com/images/schmittlr.jpg

And here's a collage from EOC where you can also see a 3E button.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/williehoo/eagles/Eagleswallpaper5.jpg

OMG look at that face...He said in his solo show that he didn't hesitate when Glenn called and asked him to join the band...maybe he had already heard about 3E!!...I'd definitely wear one proudly!...God love all those women who got to partake in a little 3E with sweet TBS!!!

Topkat

07-11-2012, 09:16 AM

OMG look at that face...He said in his solo show that he didn't hesitate when Glenn called and asked him to join the band...maybe he had already heard about 3E!!...I'd definitely wear one proudly!...God love all those women who got to partake in a little 3E with sweet TBS!!!

Tim was a pretty big star when he was in Poco. I'm sure he was already pretty popular with the ladies! Yes, those were some lucky girls!!

Topkat

07-11-2012, 09:37 AM

We've gotten way off the topic here, so I'm getting back to Felder's book. I have to agree with you, BramwenR. I read the book about 2 years ago, but I really liked it. I did learn a lot about the Eagles, but this is his side of the story. The other guys haven't told their side, which I'm sure is a bit different. I always say there are 3 sides to every story. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I really loved Felder in the Eagles, & was very upset when I learned he was no longer in the band, but I guess the case is settled, & Felder was paid millions. It's an unfortunate & ugly story, but the Eagles go on. I wish he was still in the band, but that is never going to happen. Still love them. I really don't need to know all the details of how it went down.

How did this get to be about Timothy & the 3E buttons??? LOL:hilarious:

zeldabjr

07-11-2012, 09:56 AM

WalshFan88

07-11-2012, 10:31 AM

I read the book about 2 years ago, but I really liked it. I did learn a lot about the Eagles, but this is his side of the story. The other guys haven't told their side, which I'm sure is a bit different. I always say there are 3 sides to every story. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I really loved Felder in the Eagles, & was very upset when I learned he was no longer in the band, but I guess the case is settled, & Felder was paid millions. It's an unfortunate & ugly story, but the Eagles go on. I wish he was still in the band, but that is never going to happen. Still love them. I really don't need to know all the details of how it went down.

I completely agree and couldn't have said it better.... I liked the book - I found it to be very good and I have to say it's probably my favorite Eagles-related book I've read no matter how biased it may or may not be - it's just simply the one I enjoyed reading the most. Not because of Felder's viewpoints but just because it was exciting to read a story by a former Eagle who was in the band no matter how factual it is or isn't. It hasn't changed my views on the band or any of it's past or present members, FWIW, but it just was a good read and one I have re-read probably 2 or 3 times.

I was very upset when I first read/heard about him no longer being in the band too but it's over now and the past is the past and they have moved on. I like reading the books but other than that I don't really need to know what what down and so on. It's not like it's going to change the past or anything like that. He's still my 2nd favorite guitar player regardless and I will always admire him. And I still go see Eagles shows and want to see a Felder solo show if he ever comes to IL! But I obviously don't look for him to rejoin. I stopped wishing for that long ago. It's done and over and no use to worry or be upset by it any longer. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

Ive always been a dreamer

07-11-2012, 11:01 AM

Well said, Topkat and Austin. Those words "time passes but you must move on" really hold true here and it looks like that's what all the band members have done in this unfortunate case. I wish Felder much success with his upcoming album. As I said before, I hope it does well.

And how did this discussion turn to 3E? :lol:

Topkat

07-11-2012, 11:19 AM

You know I don't think any of them were prepared for the amount of fame & money that they received. They started like any band, as a bunch of regular guys with guitars & when the money & fame came rolling in, the pressure on them became huge. Add to that the drugs, the women, the power struggles. It all became an ugly mess. The music business is a business & few young guys in bands are aware of all that's involved. In the early days, many bands were taken advantage of by unscrupulous mangers and lost all their money. Go read the tragic story of the band Badfinger, who were literally starving, & working like dogs, & had hit records. They were so broke it lead to the suicides of 2 band members....The Eagles were one of the lucky bands that got it all, but the power had gone to their heads, & the drugs brought out some ugly sides to their personalities.

Now they can look back on it & see the mistakes they all made, but it was a long road. I'm just glad that they all managed to straighten out & still have the success they still have today. I'm sure they all appreciate the careers they have. They survived it all; the good, the bad & the ugly! We are all lucky to still enjoy them today! I would love to read the bios of the rest of the guys, I hope one day to read the life stories of each of them.