Songwriting vs production

[UndertheWire]

I nearly put this in the Press thread, but I thought it might be an interesting discussion. The blog is about good songs being stretched out during recording or in concert, but I think we could take it further by considering how much the arrangement contributes to the recording or performance.


I'm not a big fan of The Eagles but there are a few of their songs I quite like. I'd say my favourite is New Kid in Town. Quite a nice understated arrangement. Nice chords, nice vocals and some tasteful guitar and piano. A bit like something The Band might have done in one of their more laidback moments. But around three minutes and forty seconds something else happens. The song transforms into layers of vocals repeating a few phrases with a few variations here and there - and this all carries on for another ninety seconds - all oohs and aahs. By now I'm reaching for the fast-forward button. Everything I liked about the song is a distant memory. Why? Why did they have to do that?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/blogs/blog-on-the-tracks/12530251/Guest-Blog-Songwriting-vs-production

[chaim]

Although I consider chords part of the composition - not arrangement - I can see his/her point in regard to the vocal parts. New Kid In Town is one of the most perfect pop songs I have ever heard (composition, lyrics and arrangement), but the woohoo's at the end may go a bit too far. I have always felt that the ending is more "syrupy" than the rest of the song. Most of the arrangement is fantastic (Joe's keyboard parts, Don F's electric guitar) and the song itself is perfect.

In Take It Easy the woohoo's at the end actually bother me a bit. I'd prefer not to hear them. Perhaps a bit lead guitar could work better for me.

[UndertheWire]

I'm so familiar with Eagles songs, that it's hard to think of them being any different to how they are. I like the long fade-outs with all the "oohs".

For a non-Eagles example of a song that goes on too long, I think of an unreleased Max Carl track that was posted on the Glenn Frey youtube thread. Glenn is there in the vocals and he may have been the producer (it's from the mid-eighties). The song comes almost comes to an end at 2:30 and then again at around 3:29 but then it carries on to 4:12. When the song was recorded and released by someone else, it was done in 2:51.

Max Carl (with Glenn) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynVkl0_Mr70)

Jennifer Warnes (with Max Carl) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d-2ysDb6WU)

[chaim]

I don't think the NKIT fadeout is too long, but perhaps the vocal arrangement is a bit too "MOR" there.

I had a similar feeling with Joe's "One day at a time". Some of the background vocals ("ooooh, lalala" or something like that) went too far in the "nice, polished and utterly comfortable" direction for me. Although, unlike in NKIT, in that case it actually bothered me. It seemed to be a purely musical decision that cheapened the serious and important subject matter (IMHO).

Let me give another KISS example....

KISS had had four singers since the beginning, but in the 90's they seemed to really notice how well they can sing as a group. So they added a third harmony part to things that had originally a two part harmony. I can't explain this to those who don't know a bit of theory without using an instrument, but I give you an example you can listen to. Let's take the song Goin' Blind. There were originally two vocal harmony parts in the chorus, sung in 4ths. Sounding a bit Eastern even. (Or if there is a third part, I can't hear it)

Starts from 0:57 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZa6tpq6Wzo

KISS had NEVER played this song live, but in the the early 90's Gene and Paul performed it on MTV's Most Wanted. Here you can really hear how well the two part harmony in 4ths works in this song. Starts from 0:52 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSdEvGy-PXk

Since then whenever KISS has performed the song, they have added another harmony part (the 3rd, in terms of intervals). IMO this softened it too much, and it lost its edge. In this clip all three harmony parts can be heard very well. Starts from 0:36 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSzBBM58FK8

IMO bands sometimes do stuff because they can, although it may not always be what works best for the music.

[GlennLover]

I don't think the NKIT fadeout is too long, but perhaps the vocal arrangement is a bit too "MOR" there.

I had a similar feeling with Joe's "One day at a time". Some of the background vocals ("ooooh, lalala" or something like that) went too far in the "nice, polished and utterly comfortable" direction for me. Although, unlike in NKIT, in that case it actually bothered me. It seemed to be a purely musical decision that cheapened the serious and important subject matter (IMHO).

I agree about the "ooooh, lala"s on "One Day at A Time". They have always bothered me too. They sound too "bubblegum". However, I love NKIT the way it is.

[chaim]

I agree about the "ooooh, lala"s on "One Day at A Time". They have always bothered me too. They sound too "bubblegum". However, I love NKIT the way it is.

I love it too. The ending is "close to the edge" for me, but not quite there.
(I added quite a lot to my post after you quoted it)

[AlreadyGone95]

Count me as a fan of NKIT as it is, although it took several years to grow on me. (As a 10 year old, I thought it was boring. Now, I don't. )

I'm trying to think of some songs that I think go on for too long. Hole in the World is the Eagles song that comes to mind first. I love it, but the repeated chorus at the end is annoying at times.

[NightMistBlue]

Ditto for me what AG said; the song is perfect. Can one get enough of classic Eagles harmonies? No. That would be like saying it's too nice of a day outside, I can't take anymore.

[Funk 50]

I think the dragged out arrangements of songs is all to do with the album format. In the 60s, songs were short and snappy for the singles market. Short and snappy wasn't ideal for sequencing an LP or a 2 hour concert though, so tracks were extended. It got a bit silly when the 12" single became a popular format. The CD format only encouraged longer arrangements.

I presume songs will get shorter as the MP3 age takes hold and the 70s dinosaurs like the Eagles and Pink Floyd disappear. I prefer drawn out arrangements. The longest track I have is JM Jarre's ambient instrumental Waiting For Cousteau (46:54): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH2UxxdXAfg

Most of my albums are shorter than that. It's the "go to" track when I don't want any rhythm, melody or vocals. It has it's place. :)

Eagles tracks that drag on too long; Long Road Out Of Eden, Waiting In The Weeds, Busy Being Fabulous & maybe New Kid In Town
Eagles tracks that are too short; Outlaw Man, Tryin', Witchy Woman, James Dean, Doolin Dalton, Certain Kind Of Fool, Somebody, I Dreamed There Was No War, Business As Usual, Take It Easy, You Are Not Alone & The Long Run.
All in my humble opinion of course. :)

King Of Hollywood is about the right length but I can't believe they fade it out as Joe's taking it up a notch :sad:

Thanks for the topic UTW :thumbsup:

[NightMistBlue]

It got a bit silly when the 12" single became a popular format. The CD format only encouraged longer arrangements.

I think drum machines and other sequencers also encouraged pointlessly drawn-out songs. I loved the Eurythmics but there were times during say "Be Yourself Tonight" where it seemed Dave Stewart left the machines running while he went out for a coffee. That would apply to a lot of mid-80s records IMO.

I think electronica may be even worse, but to be honest I can't bear to listen for more than a few moments :)

[chaim]

Those are very interesting lists, Funk 50. I have never thought about this - that some Eagles tracks could be longer and some shorter. I have to say that I disagree on Waiting In The Weeds. For me the "finale" is bliss. If there was a long guitar solo, it probably wouldn't work, but as it is, there is something happening, but not much. So there's really this calm feeling of somebody actually "waiting in the weeds". :)

Oh, and thanks for the Jarre track.

[Freypower]

New Kid In Town, my favourite Eagles song, is the perfect length, although I know what the author means. However in my view the criticism would have been far better applied to One Of These Nights, The Long Run & Hole In The World with all the vocal ad libs I also think Best Of My Love is too long & too repetitious. Yes, these are all Henley vocals. I don't think any of the Frey leads go on for too long except perhaps for Already Gone. I do not agree at all about LROOE, BBF or WITW being too long, but I agree that Somebody & You Are Not Alone are too short.

Maybe a general topic on this would be a good idea to include songs by other artists. Much as it pains me to say it So Far Away by Dire Straits is too long. So is I Wish It Would Rain Down by Phil Collins. I love the man's voice but he overdoes it here. As for Van Morrison's Listen To The Lion...

[NightMistBlue]

So is I Wish It Would Rain Down by Phil Collins. I love the man's voice but he overdoes it here.

Remember "Take Me Home"? Great song, but the fade out or whatever you call the ending bit just goes on and on and on...

[NOLA]

I think the Beatles' "Hey Jude" may win the prize for the longest and most repetitive ending in song. I love the song - it's a classic - but damn, the "nah, nah, nah" end takes forever!

For the Eagles' catalog, TITTL has a similar ending, but not to the extreme of HJ.

[AlreadyGone95]

For non Eagles songs, I'm Your Captain/Closer to Home by Grand Funk Railroad is the one that I think of. I love the first 6 or so minutes,but nearly 3 minutes of repeating "I'm getting closer to my home" to end the song? Repetitive for sure! Also All Right Now by Free. The last 30-45 seconds of that song could have been left off.

I agree with NMB about Take Me Home.

I don't know if we can add songs that are musically too long. If so, Traffic's Low Spark of High Heeled Boys.

ETA: whoops, I meant NMB, not FP. (I've changed it)

[NightMistBlue]

I don't know if we can add songs that are musically too long. If so, Traffic's Low Spark of High Heeled Boys.

Or the freakin' synthesizer bits in The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" and the percussion frenzy on Chicago's "Beginnings" - it's great but it goes on for days.

Joe's "Life's Been Good" takes its time to get where it's going (8+ minutes - longer than the uncut version of "Light My Fire"!) but it's worth the ride.

[Brooke]

I thought TITTL, too, for an Eagles one.

[AlreadyGone95]

Or the freakin' synthesizer bits in The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" and the percussion frenzy on Chicago's "Beginnings" - it's great but it goes on for days.

Joe's "Life's Been Good" takes its time to get where it's going (8+ minutes - longer than the uncut version of "Light My Fire"!) but it's worth the ride.

Agreed with all of these. Another song by the Who that is a bit too long imo is Baba O'Riley, especially the beginning.

[NightMistBlue]

I thought TITTL, too, for an Eagles one.

Why? The album version is 4:48 - that's not bad for a seventies song! :) And it's not like there's a long organ solo or something, there's no fat or extraneous stuff. The fade out goes on for a bit, but it's emotional, building momentum while Randy is hollerin' back home to Nebraska.

[jms18222]

I think WITW is perfect!

[Freypower]

Remember "Take Me Home"? Great song, but the fade out or whatever you call the ending bit just goes on and on and on...

Yes, it does go on a bit. But it packs such an emotional punch that it doesn't matter. The same goes for his greatest solo song, In The Air Tonight.

[Freypower]

I think the Beatles' "Hey Jude" may win the prize for the longest and most repetitive ending in song. I love the song - it's a classic - but damn, the "nah, nah, nah" end takes forever!

For the Eagles' catalog, TITTL has a similar ending, but not to the extreme of HJ.

I hoped someone wouldn' mention Hey Jude. It's so iconic for me that it's hard for me to realise that others may not feel the same way about it.

As for TITTL I'm sorry but I agree that the repetition of the chorus is overdone. The song seems to be such a sacred cow that I hesitate to say it.

Back to other Eagles songs that go on too long:

Bitter Creek (the doo doo doo stuff is completely unnecessary)
You Never Cry Like A Lover (it must be me. Again, unnecessary adlibs)
Ol '55 (yes! One sung mainly by Glenn! Too much repetition at the end)
Try & Love Again (the chorus is repeated far too often at the end)
Guilty Of The Crime (the end of this song sometimes sets my teeth on edge).

[chaim]

I love the Bitter Creek fadeout, the "doodoodoo" stuff. I love how the lead guitar becomes more and more prominent while the doodoo's continue.
As for Guilty Of The Crime, it's torture for me from the very first note.

[Brooke]

Why? The album version is 4:48 - that's not bad for a seventies song! :) And it's not like there's a long organ solo or something, there's no fat or extraneous stuff. The fade out goes on for a bit, but it's emotional, building momentum while Randy is hollerin' back home to Nebraska.

Because they sing "take it to the limit one more time" like 20 times at the end. Jmo.

[L101]

I love 'Take me home' by Phil Collins - IMO he can sing it as much and as long as he likes (I also sing it sometimes on my way home from a night out :grin:)

As for the Eagles songs, I agree with TITTL - it goes on for too long at the end.
I don't mind You never cry like a lover - it's not as annoying as Guilty of the crime! That is torture for me to listen to, just like Good day in hell.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

First of all, of the Eagles songs that have been mentioned here, I love most of them including NKIT, TITTL, and TALA. While they may be repetitive, for me, they are just right. The first Eagles song that comes to my mind when I think of too repetitive is Journey of the Sorcerer. I always said that instrumentals get boring for me if they go on too long without some variation and this song is a good example. I personally would like it a lot more if it were a couple of minutes shorter. As far as One Day At a Time, I somewhat agree with chaim said about the "background vocals ("ooooh, lalala" or something like that) went too far in the "nice, polished and utterly comfortable" direction for me". I like the guitar-driven Analog Man arrangement of the song much better without the lalala's.

And as far as Hey Jude - I agree the ending is very long and repetitive, but it is so catchy that it doesn't bother me in the least.

[Funk 50]

Can you imagine the excitement, during the 60s, when the radio DJ introduces a brand new Beatles single. It's an instant classic, of course, then it doesn't end in under 3 minutes as expected, the singing goes on and on, longer than any record you've heard before. When it was over you wouldn't know when and how you'd hear it a second time.

That's how you engaged your fans when you're the most popular band in the world :)

[Funk 50]

I'm surprised to see that a lot of the Eagles songs that are mentioned as going on too long are the tracks that really let their harmony vocals soar.

The harmonies at the end of Take It To The Limit, Try And Love Again, Ol' 55 etc are my favourite parts of the songs. The Eagles soaring harmonies is a wonderful sound. I don't think they soar so high on the Long Road Out Of Eden album. The key change is my favourite part of New Kid In Town. :)

[GlennLover]

I agree with you Chaim. Love those harmonies!

I heard Aquarius/Let The Sun Shine by the 5th Dimension yesterday. That's one song that goes on too long. i like it, but the entire song is repetitious.

[OntheBorder74]

My favourite part ironically is the fade out on NKIT, the 'I don't want to Hear It' part etc.

Donovan Atlantis, half the song is talking that I skip then it repetes the same refrain for three more minutes its crazy, though it is inspired.

[Freypower]

I'm surprised to see that a lot of the Eagles songs that are mentioned as going on too long are the tracks that really let their harmony vocals soar.

The harmonies at the end of Take It To The Limit, Try And Love Again, Ol' 55 etc are my favourite parts of the songs. The Eagles soaring harmonies is a wonderful sound. I don't think they soar so high on the Long Road Out Of Eden album. The key change is my favourite part of New Kid In Town. :)

This is a valid point in that yes, you do hear the harmonies emphasised in these songs after the lead vocal has finished except for adlibbing.

I would add though that in my opinion a couple of songs where the vocal ad libs are overemphasised & go on for too long so that they overshadow the harmonies. These songs, as I mentioned before, are The Long Run, Hole In The World & I'm afraid, Take It To The Limit.

[Funk 50]

After listening to all the live versions so much, I was surprised how short and sparsely produced the studio version of The Long Run is.

It's the opposite with Take It To The Limit. If you're more familiar with Glenn's live and concise version of Take It To The Limit, Randy's original drags on forever. :)

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Well F50 - I gotta respectfully disagree with ya on that. Although I love Glenn's version and it is extremely well-received in the live shows, nothing will ever top Randy's version of the song, IMHO. Repetition only bothers me when it goes on for several minutes with no variation whatsoever. Most all Eagles songs where there is repetition also have little diverse nuances that keep them interesting for me - for example, at end of NKIT how Glenn sings something different after each "there's a new kid in town" and at the end of TITTL how Randy's voice builds and changes after each "take it to the limit".