US Election 2016 Poll and Disscusion

[WalshFan88]

since I've been on this board it's been an enjoyable political free place...I am disappointed that Nancy didn't choose to keep it that way...just my opinion...

First of all, I totally respect that....and now I think it should probably be closed, I suggested it a couple posts ago. I can't say I'm disappointed as I have posted in this thread from day one. And I respect one not liking political/religious discussion. I respect choosing when and where if ever to share it. Me, I only share it anonymously, or at least not with the majority of friends on Facebook. Me, I prefer the opposite. Clean social media accounts and forum discussion.

But it is something that is contained within this thread, I understand if it's spilling into other threads, but it is contained within one thread and one can choose to ignore it and not participate if they shall do so. As long as it's only in this thread, you could close it or delete it without it at all changing the atmosphere here. You can also do the same while keeping it open if you don't let it spill out or start getting hasty with each other. And so far that has not happened. It's been pretty mild compared to most discussions, IMO.

I feel this discussion has been mostly positive, and everyone has kept their cool unlike on Facebook or any other forum. I think everyone who's posted should be proud for doing so and keeping it respectful. I don't think we've crossed any boundaries with each other, and I feel we have been level headed so far.

That said, I respect your opinion and I respect Soda's decision for closing or not closing this thread and allowing or not allowing this discussion in the future.

[Glennsallnighter]

FDR is the only president to ever serve more then 4 terms. I thought that was universall knowledge?

Desperada and I are Irish and would not necessarily know all the ins and outs of the US political system. So thanks to the people who clarified her question. You probably don't know much about ours. Would you know without having to google how long an Irish presidents term of office is?

[UndertheWire]

Desperada and I are Irish and would not necessarily know all the ins and outs of the US political system. So thanks to the people who clarified her question. You probably don't know much about ours. Would you know without having to google how long an Irish presidents term of office is?
You shamed me. Not only didn't I know how long the term of office is, I couldn't even name the current president. But now I know that Michael Higgins is the first president since 1990 to not be called "Mary". I remember Mary Robinson partly because she was the first woman president at a time where there seemed to be big changes for the women of the Republic of Ireland.

For me, this thread gave a more personalised view of the US election. At times I found it shocking because of the strongly-expressed hostility towards Hillary Clinton expressed by a few but there were also well-expressed views from both sides.

[NightMistBlue]

I remember Mary Robinson too, because she is from Ballina, Mayo which is where my ancestors were from. I know of Enda Kenny because (again) he's from Mayo, he's quite handsome (IMO) and when he came over to visit President Obama a few years ago, many people misspelled his name as "Edna." A lot of Irish names are popular in the U.S., but Enda is not one of them.

I'm ashamed that this Michael Higgins fellow has been president since 2011, and I've never heard of him! Sorry. :shy:

I don't mind political threads On the Border because (1) I learn stuff and (2) it's relatively peaceful and civilized compared to other Internet sites, where the political content can be abusive.

[Glennsallnighter]

We're not too impressed with 'Enda' right now. Industrial unrest is tearing the country apart and he doesn't even notice. He's a good friend of my brothers though so I have to mind what I say. He is Taoiseach - head of government. But any laws made have to be signed in by the President (Michael D as he's known as) after they pass all stages. In theory he could challenge a law. In practice its rarely happened.

[DivineDon]

FDR is the only president to ever serve more then 4 terms. I thought that was universall knowledge?

Yeah, it is universal knowledge - so is what happened in Europe in the 1930s. Are you aware of that? If not I suggest you brush up on your history especially regarding Germany. You might find some familiar themes there.

[StephUK]

I don't want to comment on whether Trump is a good choice for the USA. I don't live there so I'm in no position to do so. However, I am worried about the effect he might have on us all, because of his views on global issues. I fear he is a man who could start WW3 on his own!

When asked what relationship he wanted with the UK he said 'they want to get back control of their borders and economy - why wouldn't we work together with people of the same mind?' I think he is forgetting that it is the VOTERS who want BritEx NOT the Government. Cameron resigned because the vote went against them! and parliament are currently trying to subvert the will of the voters. If Trump thinks he'll have the UK government eating out of his hand, I think he's wrong.

I am a BritEx supporter. My decision is a vote of no-confidence in our 2 main political parties because neither the Blair/Brown Labour government or the Cameron Conservative govermnent has acted to protect our NHS and Welfare state. Trump says the Chinese have been 'raping' the US. Immigrants from the EU have been 'raping' the UK. The problem has been brewing for a long time.
British working people pay for the NHS(it's not so dissimilar to paying a health insurance policy), they also pay in order to secure benefits from the welfare state, including help for disabled people. Immigrants who come to our country, without money or having first secured a job, should not receive or expect to receive healthcare or benefits(they cannot get them in any other EU country). The governemnt should have make this the law but did not. If they had done so there would have been no call for a EU referendum. No free healthcare & benefits = less immigrants.

I'm not anti-foreigners and would have preferred the UK to stay in the EU, but our population is now well above what the UK economy can support. The government gave me no other option but to vote for BritEx in order to close our borders.

Apologies to those who don't like political discussion and for going a bit off topic, as this thread is supposed to be about the US election.

[sodascouts]

I haven't closed the thread because it seemed people were still enjoying posting in it, but if it were to become unpleasant, I'd certainly have no problem doing so.

Steph, there's also an Brexit thread here: https://www.eaglesonlinecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6506 - I feel like I can't comment too much on that since I don't live in the UK, but it does appear nationalist trends are a global phenomenon.

[WalshFan88]

I totally get that Soda...

[WalshFan88]

This is something that scares me. This is indirectly about Trump, but more.

Today I landed in Florida on vacation and when we drove through McDonalds there was a big black truck with huge wheels and on the tailgate was PAINTED (not stickers) "TRUMP 2016" with his slogan. That's okay. A bit much, but okay.

What's not okay was the frog symbol of white supremacy, the KKK logo, the logo of two men in a sexual position with a circle and a cross through it, and the word "SAVAGE" above it. What was even more disgusting was a logo of God along with those logos. These were all PAINTED on his vehicle. It made me want to throw up. He's probably the guy who picks on black people, who assaults or insults LGBT people, who looks down his nose at foreigners, and who treat women badly.

See, not all Trump supporters are like this... I know that, of course. But they DO exist. The good natured Trump supporters like to brush the other side of his supporters under the rug and make it seem like not a big deal. It's a HUGE deal.

But TRUMP intentionally or unintentionally fuels the fire of these racist, homophobic, bigoted, xenophobic, misogynistic, bullying people like this man. It was going to be bad enough with him in the spotlight, it will be even worse with him getting the presidency. It sends the wrong message to people and says it's okay to be mean and judgmental and a bully. It is a disgusting, horrible thing.

I am anti-religion, but I am one who is not a hardcore atheist. Until this election I've never come forward for that. I will pray for people and myself but I don't pray as a Christian, Catholic, Baptist, Spiritualist. I pray to nature and I pray to an unknown higher power. I don't support bible thumping but I won't look down on those who do unless they use it as an excuse to tell others how to live THEIR lives. But IMO a lot of the christian people who are the things I said above use their political and religious beliefs for justifying their behavior. I don't care what the Bible says about homosexuality. In 2016, it's not okay to be against same-sex marriage. There are too many Kim Davis's out there. There are too many cops who are killing innocent black men because of the stereotypes. There are too many men forcing themselves on women. There are too many people bullying those who dare to be different or have a disability. And it will never be okay. It's also a person's choice on abortion. It's not the government's or other's business.

I DO respect Trump for saying he won't try to challenge the SCOTUS ruling on gay marriage, though Pence and other Reps want him to. It would be a disastrous step back for this country. I support a liberal, non-religion biased government and I support equality and equal opportunities for ALL. And I support those like me.

[Annoying Twit]

I'd like to hear more Americans saying what they feel about what has been happening in your country since Trump became President.

[NightMistBlue]

I'm very surprised, and a tad dubious, about the immediate and widespread protests over the so-called "Muslim ban." Are that many ordinary Americans so up-in-arms about visitors from seven countries receiving a temporary, 90-day stay from entering the country? So much so that they will camp out in a restricted area, such as an airport, for hours? It's a bit strange, IMO. The actual "ban" affected just over 100 people, who have all since been released.

I'm an environmental activist and have participated in a number of protests. It takes a lot of effort and organization to get people involved, to get them to turn out. Maybe that's why something doesn't ring quite true about these supposedly spontaneous protests.

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks NMB. From your environmental activist point of view, what do you think of what is happening?

[buffyfan145]

I'm very scared. Everything he's done this past week has been horrifying and I disagree with everything about the ban as our country was founded by immigrants and refugees and especially that it was done on the Holocaust Remembrance Day, that he's going to make scientists have to get their worked approved by the government before they can publish it, the dismantling of the ACA, their crazy relationship with the press, the hiring freeze on Federal jobs and that will trickle down to the state and city level and if that includes the post office where my Dad works as they are desperate for more workers, the way they are making it harder for women in other countries to receive healthcare, promoting Bannon when he shouldn't be anywhere near the government based on his pro-white views, and more. Most of the other countries don't like Trump and it's been made worse now after this. That's why I'm scared as I fully believe now we're heading for WWIII and it's just going to get a lot worse and a very scary world we're going to live in.

[NightMistBlue]

Thanks NMB. From your environmental activist point of view, what do you think of what is happening?

I'm very concerned that efforts will be made to weaken environmental regulations. But between you and me, they are already far weaker than most Americans realize. The group I co-founded has been fighting development that will destroy a very rare type of ecosystem that harbors several highly endangered species, both plant and animal. One of the species, the Miami tiger beetle, exists *only* on this parcel of land that is slated for development. You'd think it would be a cinch to get development stopped, if it will cause the extinction of a federally-listed species - but that's not the case. The interests of big money really rule the day in this country, that's the sad fact.

Having said that, I don't think Mr. Trump should be allowed to get away with silencing Environmental Protection Agency workers from speaking about climate change. As long as they stick to the facts and not start spouting their personal opinions, they should be able to speak freely.

He's going to spend his whole tenure fighting lawsuits unless he learns to tread more carefully. Just my opinion.

[Annoying Twit]

I think it's a very difficult position we, all of us in the world, find ourselves in. It's not just the US election, there are a lot of things all around the world that are going 'wrong'.

Part of what I see as being the problem, others may disagree, is the huge amount of wrong information which is spread around, and which people base their decisions on. It would be political to pick out an important myth/fact pair, but I think that there's an awful lot of myths out there that are believed by a huge number of people.

Believing something that is wrong can severely damage an individual when they make wrong choices on the basis of that information. But, in a democracy, much more damage can be done.

My posting here isn't for me to get on a soapbox. I can lecture people to 'check the facts'. But, lots of people lecture others to check their facts, without checking their own. Rather than assume what people in the US are thinking, I wish to ask, and listen to the responses.

[UndertheWire]

Nmb, as reported by the british press, the 100 (109?) were just those caught it transit. They boarded a plane with all the necessary documents for entry into the US but by the time the plane landed thery were no longer allowed in. There are others who have been turned away at check-in and who have had to cancel travel plans.

[NightMistBlue]

That's certainly unfortunate for those directly affected, but again I'm just skeptical that the plight of these 100-something people is enough to cause thousands of Americans to storm the barricades of their local airport to register their outrage. I understand the not-a-ban will affect many more than these 109 people in transit. Do most Americans care? Are many Americans crying out for more refugees? Not that I'm aware of, but if I'm wrong I'll learn.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but something just seems "off" about this.

[WalshFan88]

His "moves" since becoming POTUS are deeply concerning, but not at all surprising. I think it's troubling and I'm sincerely scared for the near future.

[sodascouts]

While I don't agree with all of the policies he has initiated since becoming President and I cringe at some of the unprofessional behaviors he's displayed, I'm confident that the balance of powers we have in our government will do their job. The US Constitution was designed to prevent any one person from holding too much power. That's why we have Congressional and Judicial checks on the Executive Branch; that's why a president can serve no more than two terms; that's why we have measures to impeach a president who abuses his/her power. Even if his policies have an overall negative effect, I don't see any global catastrophes occurring anytime soon.

I wish people would calm down. I've lived in Saudi Arabia. I know what a REAL authoritarian government looks like. Trump may not be the greatest, but those who think his executive orders limiting refugees are on par with the kind of oppression experienced there do not understand what is happening elsewhere in the world.

I say this as someone who doesn't even agree with his order (how can he say he's protecting us from terrorists with the order when most of the 9/11 terrorists are from Saudi, and yet that country has not been restricted?!) However, though I may not like Trump, I don't think he's the Anti-Christ either.

As for the protests, I think it's a good thing to become involved. I appreciate it when people take the time to contact their congresspeople and express their concerns. Protests can be effective if done well. However, it does seem some of the activists (on both sides) are ill-informed about the issues and are getting themselves worked up into a purple rage without actually knowing all the facts. They believe every meme they see on Facebook; they believe every partisan article that reinforces their beliefs (even the clickbait). They're being told the world is ending and they're running around frothing at the mouth in full-on panic mode 24/7... THAT scares me, honestly! I'm hoping that with time, once it becomes clear that the apocalypse has not occurred, they'll calm down and start focusing on constructive ways to make changes rather than waste energy raging on social media.

Also, when I saw some of the protest signs people were holding... full of vulgarity and tacky insults designed to get a nasty laugh and go viral on social media...it really turned me off. They need to go look at Martin Luther King and study what a meaningful, serious protest sign looks like.

Then:
https://tbmwomenintheworld2016.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/civil_rights_march_on_washington_d-c-_schools1.jpg?w=2100

Now:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/02/04/16/3CD40E1D00000578-4191186-image-a-142_1486227042801.jpg

Social media has been very destructive, I think, when it comes to the level of political discourse in the world today. It's all reductive, exaggerated, hashtag-friendly slogans and soundbites... where's the actual ARGUMENT and LOGIC?

[UndertheWire]

I disagree on the protest signs. The civil rights signs look like they were designed and printed by an organisation and just handed out to the marchers, whereas the recent ones are home-made and personal. "Walls suck. Trust Germans on this" shows a knowledge of history and the world outside the US. A cartoon potraying Trump as a puppet of a white supremisist cuts close to home given the story that Trump has signed at least one executive orders without knowing the content.

I hope you are right about the checks and balances. That is certainly being tested.

[travlnman2]

All the other side has is the Race card.

As for Jeff Sessions he is not a white supremacist as they say.

He put to death a KKK leader in Alabama and also desgegragted Alabama Schools. In 2009 he was also awarded The Alabama NAACP Chapter Award of excellence.

http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2017/02/08/naacp-gave-racist-jeff-sessions-award-for-excellence-in-2009-n2283209

Although I do disagree with him on the whole war on Drugs thing.

[travlnman2]

I also agree with Trump on education belonging to he states although I don't think Betsy Davos was a good choice for Ed Sec although why do we need it anyway. On Russia he needs to be more hard but we still need to work together to defeat ISIS then we can sort everything else out later

[travlnman2]

As for the wall thing I always joke well it kept the Mongolians Out of China for centuries lol

[NightMistBlue]

All the other side has is the Race card.

As for Jeff Sessions he is not a white supremacist as they say.

He put to death a KKK leader in Alabama and also desgegragted Alabama Schools. In 2009 he was also awarded The Alabama NAACP Chapter Award of excellence.

http://m.townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2017/02/08/naacp-gave-racist-jeff-sessions-award-for-excellence-in-2009-n2283209

Amen to that. It made me so angry to hear ill-informed people disparage him. Mr. Sessions is an intelligent person of integrity. Listening to the disgusting, pandering tactics during his confirmation hearings played a big role in getting me to change my party designation from Democrat (which I've been ever since I could vote at age eighteen) to Independent. It made me realize this is not my Party anymore.

[Annoying Twit]

One thing that the US election has done is encouraged me to learn how the American political system works. I can see the checks and balances. This puts the stress between Trump and the judiciary into context. What will make a difference long term is if Trump either maintains at least a cooperative relationship with Congress, or whether there will eventually be friction there too.

I think that in the political arena 'the truth will out'. People will be judged by their actions. It's not necessary to make immediate decisions about how people will act, and past behaviour is not a guarantee of similar behaviour in the future, though it is indicative.

One issue that affects many societies is that people make decisions, including important decisions, too quickly without properly investigating the facts. E.g. the are opinions about Sessions is an example of this. There are many people and media outlets characterising him one way or the other, but it appears that much of this is over-simple (on both sides), and the reality of how he is likely to perform in the job and what he will do does not appear clear to me.

A major concern is that there will be more war. I feel that people in the UK have fallen into the trap of dehumanising whole countries of people, different religions, etc. The same appears to be a risk in the US. Dehumanising others has been, in the past, often the first step to much darker actions. I'm concerned as to where the world as a whole is going. This again, in my opinion, is a symptom of oversimplification and a lack of motivation to truly understand facts and people.

[WalshFan88]

All the other side has is the Race card.

Now that is just not true. It's not just race. It's a lot of things that make him a dangerous person and make him repulsive to those of us who care. It's not just racism, xenophobia, misogyny, making fun of disabled people, being friends with Putin, narcissism, etc. It's all of them combined. If he weren't in the highest office he'd just be a narcissistic perverted bigot, and we'd write him off as such and move on. But he is now in the office of POTUS and he has to be fought as IMO he is a fascist.

I agree with Soda that there is checks and balances (and as such thankfully we've seen the travel ban go bye bye) but still, he has way more power than he ever should have. And he can still do things that are not good for us, dangerous even.

It goes beyond FUD, there are active reasons to be concerned in numerous different areas. If you think all we are concerned about is racism and using the "race card" you are highly mistaken. We are concerned about the future and from everything I've seen and many others have seen, it's a legit concern. That's all.

To each their own, but I couldn't just ignore that sentence. I'm sorry. But no.

[travlnman2]

IF and again a BIG IF Trump is all those things you said he was then why is that All of Middle America voted for him. All the left has is Insults and it did not work because the Democratic Party dig its own grave because all they focused was on the West and East Coast cities.

By the way he never mocked a disabled reporter that has been proven false.

If you don't agree with the left they attack and ostracize you.

[travlnman2]

By the way apparently the 1980s want their foreign policy back ;)

[travlnman2]

By the way the GOO are hypocritical to

[WalshFan88]

IF and again a BIG IF Trump is all those things you said he was then why is that All of Middle America voted for him. All the left has is Insults and it did not work because the Democratic Party dig its own grave because all they focused was on the West and East Coast cities.

By the way he never mocked a disabled reporter that has been proven false.

If you don't agree with the left they attack and ostracize you.

Well let's see, the audio of Trump and Billy Bush was on tape, so that is a given. Plus all of the comments he's made publicly about women. And he's against women's rights. He's called foreign individuals and groups names (Saying Mexicans are rapist, the hate against Muslims), he questioned Obama's birth certificate, on and on. He can try to deny he mocked a disabled reporter but the fact is the gesture he made represented the deformity of the man's hand. He and his cronies can try to deny it or look at it from a different angle. If he said those words without gesturing his hand like the reporters deformity, I'd definitely agree with you. But then we wouldn't discuss it. It's been shown that Russia helped or at least tried to aide in his election. And there is no doubting his narcissism. The man is full of himself and hates being told no. And his use of Twitter and the White House website for personal things is disgusting.

HRC won the popular vote AND it was the electoral college that got DJT in office.

The poor, redneck, country folk who think he is their saving grace are misguided at best. He would be the first he'd screw over. No matter what, he isn't a good ol boy blue collar type. He is a businessman who lived in mansions and flew in a private jet and had a rep of screwing over the little guy. But quite honestly his rough around the edges character is what they wanted but he's fooling them. I would feel sorry for them but the writing was on the wall if they looked long.

[WalshFan88]

By the way apparently the 1980s want their foreign policy back ;)

I'm NOT in support of Trump's foreign policy. I think a wall is a horrible idea and I'm so glad the travel ban was overturned. If that's "1980s", so be it. TEHO.

[travlnman2]

That was Obama who said that.

By the way those poor country rednecks keep your food stocked your water and power on.

You just proved exactly why Trump won and Hillary lost.

The electoral college was put in place because everyone gets a say and if it wasn't put in place California and New York would swing the votes for the Democears every time.


Trump has done more to create jobs for this country in 19 days then Obama in 8 years.

[travlnman2]

Hillary was the corrupt Wall Street endorsed cannidate.

[travlnman2]

Hillary also called Black Super Preadators and called half America Deplorabe Racists. I support who will do the best job and Hillary would not have done a good job. I guess she wasn't a feminist when her husband got impeached.


Screwing over the Little Guy is what The Clinton Foundation is for.


FYI I have nothing personal against you my sister and I get like this all the time. Th

[WalshFan88]

That was Obama who said that.

By the way those poor country rednecks keep your food stocked your water and power on.

You just proved exactly why Trump won and Hillary lost.

The electoral college was put in place because everyone gets a say and if it wasn't put in place California and New York would swing the votes for the Democears every time.


Trump has done more to create jobs for this country in 19 days then Obama in 8 years.

Hey I'm not saying I have anything against them. I live out in the country and everyone around me are redneck types and I'm just saying I think they have made a big mistake.

My dad works in the coal industry, my great grandpa was a farmer, and I have country folk as friends so don't judge or pretend you know me. I'm just saying it's sadly ironic the people that think he'll save them is the one who will screw them over. But I don't feel bad because they are smart enough to know better but choose to overlook the evidence he will NOT help them, actually anything but.

Trump hasn't done anything for jobs....instead he's busying bashing Nordstrom because his precious daughter doesn't like them. Or he's showing his xenophobia by fighting to save his precious travel ban. He isn't helping you. He's helping him.

My opinion will change the SECOND I see him doing something for greater good with no agenda.

[travlnman2]

If the Democrats actually cared about the poor then the poor would not be poor. But ALL the Hollywood Elite vote for the Democrats because that buys influence for the Celbeetoes and their Gated Communities.

Trump so far has create over 100,000 jobs negotiating with the Air Lines, Carrier, Ford etc. He is getting stuff done while the Democrats whine and complain. It's not Cenophobic to ban people forming coming over from FAILED GOVERMENTS if it was a full Muslim ban then Indosenia would be on that list. Well it's not because it has a Stable Government.

The stock market is also looking better because of tax cuts. No Obama did not make it better he made it worse from 9 Trilion dollars to 19 Trillon dollars in debt he made the economy worse.

[WalshFan88]

Republicans want a trickle down system that only supports those at the top. The way to do it is work from the middle class out in both directions. You can't tell me he isn't going to do things to make it better for himself and his family business.

[Annoying Twit]

The 'Trump has created 100,000 jobs' thing is an example of what I mean by people taking note of sound bites and not really finding looking into things in sufficient depth. As an example, I spent a bit of time looking further into those claims, which I noted are repeated very often on the internet.

The situation is far more complex, and it appears that many of those jobs (if not the vast majority) come from plans that were in place before Trump was elected. However, companies are presenting their changing job plans in such a way that Trump can take credit, as this gets the companies into Trump's good books. I read a number of articles, but this one seems to be the best I read: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/president-trump-job-creator/514466/ There are claims by conservatives that Obama didn't create jobs or created very few. That article also points out that job creation is a process that continues with or without presidents, and continued during Obamas presidency. E.g. by 2015 the 7.6 million jobs that had disappeared with the 2008 recession had been recovered. https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/economic-synopses/2015/03/27/jobs-more-slowly-created-more-slowly-destroyed/

As an example, Ford decided not to move some production to Mexico, and this has been portrayed as a win for Trump. However, Ford's plans are based on decreased demand for small petrol cars (some of which such as the Focus are made in Mexico), and increased demand for electric cars (which are made in the USA). The Ford example is presented as a win for Trump, but it's actually a result of simple economics. As it should be in a healthy economy.

Job creation and destruction in the economy is a complicated topic. For example, job destruction is a sign of health in a growing economy because much of that destruction will be people quitting because they have found another job. Job destruction in a recession is different.

Markets change, so closing factories is not necessarily a bad sign if a company is opening other factories that make different products, as it shows that a company is adapting to changes in the market. E.g. Ford noting the lessening demand for small petrol cars and the increase in demand for electric cars.

I've used this as an example, and I apologise to Travenlnman2 for any contrarianism. But I think it's important to note the oversimple and misleading way that stats and 'facts' are used in our society. I think it's necessary to do proper research before such complex topics as job creation can be understood and the causes properly attributed.