US Election 2016 Poll and Disscusion

[travlnman2]

Now that the primaries are over It would be interesting to see what peoples view points are. Who do you want. Donald J Trump or Hillary Rodham Clinton?

Or will you not vote,currently undecided or will you choose a third party candidate like Libertarian Nominee Gary Johnson or Green Party Nominee Jill Stein?

I want to get this poll started then I will state my own personal views. :). Right now I say everyone is just plain terrible this year which I can think that a lot of us can agree on.

[NightMistBlue]

I'm going to check the "None of the above" slot

[WS82Classics]

I've always wanted to see an insightful political discussion unfold here on this crazy race, as I think a lot of people on here( as evidenced by the Brexit discussion, as well as several archival postings to this site from 2008 ) would have interesting insights on the state of things.

While I generally myself shy away from bringing up the subject, I'll chime in. 'Undecided' was my vote, but I'm not 'undecided' in any conventional regard, as I am very much decided in the sense that I'm not going to be voting for Donald Trump come November 8. No way was I ever going to do such, but certainly not after that demagogic he||hole of a speech he gave Thursday Night.

I can see myself voting for HRC only if GA(the state in which I live) is in play and close enough to tip against Mr. Trump. I can also see voting for Mr. Johnson only if the awfulness of the other two ultimately trumps my disdain for the ideology known as Libertarianism. Jill Stein does not have ballot access in my state, but I wasn't supporting her anyhow. The likeliest outcome is that I'll cast a write-in ballot for Erin Burnett, consistently my favourite news lady through the years.

That's where things stand on my end as of right now.

[scottside]

As a lifelong Republican, I can't bring myself to vote for Hillary Clinton under any circumstances. After the past few weeks of news about her, I find it even more impossible. Donald Trump was far from my favorite candidate on the Republican side, but in a strange way, I can see how he ended up as the nominee. People are just plain furious now....it's everywhere I go and he's tapped into that.

I'm not sure what will happen in November. I've thought all along that it was Hillary's to lose and that may still be the case. The funny thing is that if Bill Clinton was able to run again, I've have no problem casting my vote for him. This is without a doubt the strangest election season I've ever seen and I've seen many of them.

[buffyfan145]

I normally don't talk about politics but it's never Trump for me. He scares me so bad and I'm totally scared for our country if he gets elected. So many bad things will happen if he does. He has no political experience and is using scare tactics to make people vote for him and no explanations of how he'll fix anything he says he's going to fix besides the wall. I have thought since President Obama got elected in 2008 that Hillary was going to be next to finally give the US a female president and I still feel like that's the case.

[WalshFan88]

I normally don't talk about politics but it's never Trump for me. He scares me so bad and I'm totally scared for our country if he gets elected. So many bad things will happen if he does. He has no political experience and is using scare tactics to make people vote for him and no explanations of how he'll fix anything he says he's going to fix besides the wall. I have thought since President Obama got elected in 2008 that Hillary was going to be next to finally give the US a female president and I still feel like that's the case.

Agreed 100%.

[thelastresort]

Surely the only option should be Joe Walsh for President? :D

In all seriousness, and I say this as a non-American looking in, it's an awful situation when you have tens of millions of people who could be president and you end up with a choice between Hilary Clinton and Donald Trump. I'm a deeply avowed libertarian (sorry WS82!), probably bordering on voluntaryist or anarchist so I'd probably go for Johnson if I had to.

Out of interest, when was the last time in a Presidential election that someone other than Republic or Democrat won the majority in any state? I remember something about it from college (UK edition!) but I can't for the life of me remember who or where...

[travlnman2]

I do NOT want Hillary Rotten Clinton to step foot in the White House ever again! I can't vote this year as my 18th birthday is a few weeks after the election so I am kind of disappointed . I describe myself as a Right Wing Libertarian leaning Republican. My dad is a legal Italian Immigrant so Donald's immigration policy speaks to me. My dad worked very hard to get to where he is today as successful insurance agent. So it INFURIATES me that all the Illegals get more benefits for cheating the system and start protesting when they are called out on it but its okay the Left will protect there safe space. I would post more but it appeals me how some would let this lying corrupt person back in the White House because Trump hurts their feelings.

Sorry if I seem harsh.

[EagleLady]

I do NOT want Hillary Rotten Clinton to step foot in the White House ever again! I can't vote this year as my 18th birthday is a few weeks after the election so I am kind of disappointed . I describe myself as a Right Wing Libertarian leaning Republican. My dad is a legal Italian Immigrant so Donald's immigration policy speaks to me. My dad worked very hard to get to where he is today as successful insurance agent. So it INFURIATES me that all the Illegals get more benefits for cheating the system and start protesting when they are called out on it but its okay the Left will protect there safe space. I would post more but it appeals me how some would let this lying corrupt person back in the White House because Trump hurts their feelings.

Sorry if I seem harsh.

Trump is no better making disgusting, racist, disparaging remarks, saying Mexicans are rapists, etc.

[travlnman2]

Trump is no better making disgusting, racist, disparaging remarks, saying Mexicans are rapists, etc.

He said IILEGAL IMMGRANTS NOT LEGAL IMMIGRANTS

San Fransico comes to mind like that Kate Steinle girl who was murddered by an Illegal immigrant who was deported TWICE and released from jail.

Some people dont know the diffrence between Legal Immigrants and Illegal.

Being the Child of a Legal Immigrant I think I understand what he is talking about. If my dad came to this country today he would get more benefits if he came here Illegally like overstaying his Visa. He is now a citizen

The immigration issue is very personal so I read as much as I can.

[AlreadyGone95]

Trump lost me when he made fun of a reporter with cerebral palsy because I have CP myself. Trump has only pissed me off more since then.

Clinton is the lesser of two evils, IMO. I really dislike her, but I would prefer her to Trump. Trump seems to be full of hot air and totally ignorant of how the American Government operates. He claims that he would overturn the Supreme Court's gay marriage ruling, which a president can't do.

I go for the screwed either way vote. I liked Bernie Sanders, but he won't challenge Clinton at the DNC.

I usually won't vote Republican because of personal reasons that I won't mention on a public forum.

[RudieCantFail]

Gary Johnson should consider making his campaign slogan: "When all of your presidential candidates are dicks, America needs a Johnson. Gary Johnson 2016"

I voted for Ted Cruz in the CA primary, even though I knew he already suspended his campaign. Anyways, the only thing that's totally preventing me from being all Never Trump are the Supreme Court picks. I might just either vote for Gary Johnson or write in Clint Eastwood because he was mayor of Carmel in 1986. Voting Republican doesn't make much of a difference in CA, so I don't care that much. Donald Trump doesn't care or value the Constitution as much as he should for a Republican. He didn't mention freedom, individual liberty, or the Constitution that much or at all during the RNC. It was all about what he would do for the people instead of saying what he'd do to empower Americans as individuals.

[WalshFan88]

Trump lost me when he made fun of a reporter with cerebral palsy because I have CP myself. Trump has only pissed me off more since then.

Clinton is the lesser of two evils, IMO. I really dislike her, but I would prefer her to Trump. Trump seems to be full of hot air and totally ignorant of how the American Government operates. He claims that he would overturn the Supreme Court's gay marriage ruling, which a president can't do.

I go for the screwed either way vote. I liked Bernie Sanders, but he won't challenge Clinton at the DNC.

I usually won't vote Republican because of personal reasons that I won't mention on a public forum.

I so agree AG95.

The mocking a guy with a disability, horrible comments towards women, racist comments, name calling, making fun of a candidate's wife, etc IMO goes farther than "hurting feelings". I think a president SHOULD be politically correct. And I think a president should not resort to such poor lame attacks. When I hear Trump talk I hear him outlying all the problems without offering real solutions to anything. Hot air is right. He makes me uncomfortable. People like to bag on Hillary, and that's fine (although I disagree with most of it, but she's not an angel I'll admit). But Trump is the real danger IMO. It goes beyond "telling it like he sees it" into complete rudeness and lack of class and is not in any way presidential material.

A funny comment I saw months back was "I like Trump because he speaks his mind". The response was "My drunk uncle isn't afraid to speak his either, but that doesn't mean he should be president!". I rolled. It's exactly the point. Speaking your mind does NOT automatically = good president. It's a poor reason to vote.

[sodascouts]

I can't support either candidate so I'm staying home. I suppose I could vote third party or write someone in, but it would just be a waste of time and effort.

I comfort myself with the fact that our government is designed to have a balance of powers between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. The President does not have unlimited power. There are checks and balances. This is not Hitler's Germany.

The country has survived lousy presidents before and it will do so again. There's always impeachment if it really gets bad. I'm not happy, but I'm not panicking either.

What dismays me most is the shrill rhetoric from both sides that demonizes those with opposing political views.

[DivineDon]

Speaking as an outsider I have to say I am completely astonished that Donald Trump is in the running for president - whatever about your allegiances re Republicans or Democrats some of his pronouncements have been downright inciteful and I dread to think of what his presidency will be like. I understand what you're saying, Soda about the government curtailing him but the very fact that he might be elected given his beliefs sends a very scary message out to the world about what the majority of Americans think about immigrants, world trade etc. and I would beg you to reconsider your position of not voting. Vote for a third candidate if you can't bring yourself to vote for the main two - but you must vote in the name of democracy. Sitting on the fence is not an acceptable position imo.

....and could you all explain to me why Hillary Clinton is so disliked? We here in Ireland anyway, are baffled as to how Bill can be so popular but Hillary hated? I'd genuinely like to know because even Don who's a good friend of the Clintons was backing Bernie Saunders.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

I'm probably going to get flak for this but I completely support Donald Trump although I won't be old enough to vote in November. Trump doesn't need the job. He is setting aside his business because he wants to fix the country and help people. He wants to cut corporate taxes so businesses will come back to America. Hillary's plan to raise minimum wage will only force businesses to lay off employees. Trump is focused on keeping America safe. Hillary cannot be trusted to keep America safe because she has already failed at that. She illegally put America's security at risk and did nothing to help the Americans in Benghazi. Then she lied about all of it. In fact, when asked about the American lives lost in Benghazi, she said, "What difference does it make at this point?" Do we really want someone who can't keep classified information secret and doesn't care about the loss of American lives to be president? Trump is not the perfect candidate but he is a business man who knows how to run things and he stands up for the people. At least he is not a lying, cheating, law breaker who wants to continue another 4 years of Obama's failed policies that are leaving Americans paying high Obamacare premiums and waiting for the next terrorist attack. Trump wants to get stuff done!

[scottside]

I'm probably going to get flak for this but I completely support Donald Trump although I won't be old enough to vote in November. Trump doesn't need the job. He is setting aside his business because he wants to fix the country and help people. He wants to cut corporate taxes so businesses will come back to America. Hillary's plan to raise minimum wage will only force businesses to lay off employees. Trump is focused on keeping America safe. Hillary cannot be trusted to keep America safe because she has already failed at that. She illegally put America's security at risk and did nothing to help the Americans in Benghazi. Then she lied about all of it. In fact, when asked about the American lives lost in Benghazi, she said, "What difference does it make at this point?" Do we really want someone who can't keep classified information secret and doesn't care about the loss of American lives to be president? Trump is not the perfect candidate but he is a business man who knows how to run things and he stands up for the people. At least he is not a lying, cheating, law breaker who wants to continue another 4 years of Obama's failed policies that are leaving Americans paying high Obamacare premiums and waiting for the next terrorist attack. Trump wants to get stuff done!

I couldn't have said that better myself! I am far from being one of Trump's biggest fans, but after years of the same old stuff from both parties and things not getting any better here, I'm willing to take the chance on him. That's how utterly fed up I am with the whole political system. Hillary will be 4 more years of Obama and in terms of both economics and foreign policy, I can't see how that will help us.

[travlnman2]

[QUOTE=DivineDon;337872

....and could you all explain to me why Hilary Clinton is so disliked? We here in Ireland anyway, are baffled as to how Bill can be so popular but Hilary hated? I'd genuinely like to know because even Don who's a good friend of the Clintons was backing Bernie Saunders.[/QUOTE]

Impeachment of Bill Clinton
Monica Lewinsky scandal
Clinton Foundation investigation
Whitewater Controversy
Benghazi Attack
DOJ Investigation and bribery of the FBI

those are just a few ;)

My dad is a legal Italian immigrant and a naturalized citizen who came to this country in 1971 so I support Trump because it infuriates me that illegals get more support then vets and citizens.

Also alot of people don't know the difference between Illegal immigration and Legal Immigration the latter of which Trump supports.

[sodascouts]

Another problem people have with Hillary is that she is corrupt. Bernie Sanders was the victim of her unethical sabotage during the primary. She is willing to lie shamelessly and takes a great deal of money from corporations. She is willing to compromise her beliefs without blinking to get more support or to please donors so that they keep supplying money. Many liberals are dismayed by how many progressive policies she has already abandoned - policies she used to support - in order to get money and win votes.

Hillary supporters will typically respond with "well, all politicians are corrupt" but Bernie Sanders didn't do any of that. That's why he had support from people Iike Don and the vast majority of the progressive liberals like most of my friends. The ill will towards her is not arbitrary.

IMO, she has only gotten this far by capitalizing on the goodwill people had towards her husband and the resulting name recognition. Even DD assumed we should like her because she was married to Bill.

Still, I think she would make a better president than Trump. With her, nothing will change; she won't make things any better, but I don't think she'd make them much worse. Trump would be an embarrassment.

[AlreadyGone95]

Another problem people have with Hillary is that she is corrupt. Bernie Sanders was the victim of her unethical sabotage during the primary. She is willing to lie shamelessly and takes a great deal of money from corporations. She is willing to compromise her beliefs to get more support without blinking. Many liberals are dismayed by how many progressive policies she has already abandoned - policies she used to support - in order to win votes.

Hillary supporters will typically respond with "well, all politicians are corrupt" but Bernie Sanders didn't do any of that. That's why he had support from people Iike Don and the vast majority of the progressive liberals like most of my friends. The ill will towards her is not arbitrary.

IMO, she has only gotten this far by capitalizing on the goodwill people had towards her husband and the resulting name recognition. Even DD assumed we should like her because she was married to Bill.

Still, I think she would make a better president than Trump. With her, nothing will change; she won't make things any better, but I don't think she'd make them much worse. Trump would be an embarrassment.

What Soda said here pretty much sums up my viewpoints towards Hillary Clinton.

[DivineDon]

Even DD assumed we should like her because she was married to Bill.

Fair enough I take your point but if she's so disliked why is she the Democrat forerunner? It can't all be conspiracy theories that she's bought people off etc. I just don't believe that...someone mentioned Monica Lewinsky, Whitewater and the Clinton Foundation but surely Bill is the culprit in these cases - why would they impact on Hillary now?


and I'm sorry to those who think that Trump will be their saviour. Trump looks after number one, and that's himself. He's great at platitudes and promises but what exactly are his policies? Telling people repeatedly that he's 'gonna make America great again' and build a wall to keep out the Mexicans is an insult to intelligence not to mention racist imo.

As I said I'm viewing this from afar so I'm only going by my own perception and I'm not trying to aggrieve anyone so please don't take issue with me.

[scottside]

[QUOTE=DivineDon;337890]Fair enough I take your point but if she's so disliked why is she the Democrat forerunner?

Hillary was the frontrunner because she really had no competition in the primaries. No one expected that Bernie would be anywhere near as successful as he turned out to be. When he started his campaign he was at 6% popularity (because most people had no idea who he was). Any other year where there was a full on competition in the Democratic party I think Hillary would've had a tougher time. Everyone expected her to beat Saunders easily and early on, but he sure gave her a tough time in the end. And much of that is because he's a straight shooter and a very likable guy. I don't agree with his politics at all, but of everyone running from both parties, he's way above all the others in terms of class and honestly.

[NightMistBlue]

and I'm sorry to those who think that Trump will be their saviour. Trump looks after number one, and that's himself.

I'm afraid he's going to let many people down and betray their trust, which sucks. The ghostwriter of Trump's autobiography The Art of the Deal says Donald is basically a born liar with an extremely short attention span.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all?mbid=social_twitter

[WalshFan88]

and I'm sorry to those who think that Trump will be their saviour. Trump looks after number one, and that's himself. He's great at platitudes and promises but what exactly are his policies? Telling people repeatedly that he's 'gonna make America great again' and build a wall to keep out the Mexicans is an insult to intelligence not to mention racist imo.

I agree DD 100%. I also believe the negativity directed towards Hillary and Obama, for that matter, is a bit much.

Trump has already told potential VPs they'd be in charge of "domestic and foreign policy", which is something HE should be doing if he were President.

[LuvTim]

I'm afraid he's going to let many people down and betray their trust, which sucks. The ghostwriter of Trump's autobiography The Art of the Deal says Donald is basically a born liar with an extremely short attention span.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all?mbid=social_twitter

Actually, I recently saw this guy on some clips from Bill Maher's show. If you're interested, you can find it on YouTube.

[Witchy Woman]

Jim Jefferies, one of my favorite comedians, on Donald Trump. One of the best political bits ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CceQISThDYQ

Warning - NSFW. If you are easily offended, do not click !!

[WalshFan88]

Jim Jefferies, one of my favorite comedians, on Donald Trump. One of the best political bits ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CceQISThDYQ

Warning - NSFW. If you are easily offended, do not click !!

LOL.

[LuvTim]

Jim Jefferies, one of my favorite comedians, on Donald Trump. One of the best political bits ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CceQISThDYQ

Warning - NSFW. If you are easily offended, do not click !!

Well that was just awesome.

[AlreadyGone95]

I'm curious about something. Am I the only one on here for whom this will be the first presidential election they're eligible to vote in?

I'm taking American Government in the upcoming semester. I imagine this election will provide a few topics of discussion in that class.

I watched some of Bill Clinton's speech last night. I know the focus of his speech was to make his wife look good and show the more personal, soft side of Hillary, but from the 8-10 minutes I heard, it felt like he was trying too hard to do that. I felt like he went overboard. To me, it sounded like he was talking to a friend or buddy and taking a stroll down memory lane. I admit that his speech was the first I've watched at all of either convention, so maybe my judgement isn't the best.

ETA: That comedic clip was :censored: great and spot on.

[RudieCantFail]

Jim Jefferies, one of my favorite comedians, on Donald Trump. One of the best political bits ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CceQISThDYQ

Warning - NSFW. If you are easily offended, do not click !!

His delivery and demeanor reminds me of Bill Burr (one of my favorite comedians), and I did like the "straight shooter" part. However, I think Jeffries needs another lesson in U.S. history. All 4 of my grandparents, as well as their siblings and cousins were interned in camps during WWII. In short, it was completely unconstitutional based on due process rights, since the Japanese, as well as their American kids weren't charged with a specific crime. The Supreme Court screwed up big time on that one w/ Korematsu v. United States. I'm not saying that the registration of Muslims and their American kids is an optimal solution, but it's not nearly as bad as internment. I think a better solution is just keeping a very close NSA watch on them because let's face it, we're all monitored by them at a certain extent. If we're already doing that, great. I don't care what the gov't does to maintain our safety, as long as they don't imprison them w/o due process. If they do that, then I will support them and strongly oppose it.

And you know what a majority of Japanese-Americans did during this time? They proved their loyalty by serving in the military, and they were the most decorated battalion/whatever term in U.S. military history. I do acknowledge that there were others who weren't supportive of military service, but what do you expect? I'm glad that a majority did, but you can't expect full support. Unfortunately, the Muslim Americans have to be the big man, just like how the Japanese Americans toughed it out. If people believe that Muslims are easily radicalized in this day and age, then there's a problem with how we push American values and patriotism. It also insults them as a people because that means that the implication is that they're too weak minded or willed to resist joining a violent political/"religious" group.

Sorry about the long post. I just wanted to show that there was some historical precedent for this. Also, don't feel sorry for my family, since the gov't did apologize and award reparations during Reagan's and H.W. Bush's years.

Anyways, AG95, you're not going to be the only one that could vote in their first presidential election this year. I turned 18 in February, so unfortunately, I have the privilege to vote for Donald Trump, Gary Johnson, or write in Clint Eastwood who was mayor of Carmel in 1986. CA is already lost to the Democrats, so I don't care too much.

[AlreadyGone95]

His delivery and demeanor reminds me of Bill Burr, and I did like the "straight shooter" part. However, I think Jeffries needs another lesson in U.S. history. All 4 of my grandparents, as well as their siblings and cousins were interned in camps during WWII. In short, it was completely unconstitutional based on due process rights, since the Japanese, as well as their American kids weren't charged with a specific crime. The Supreme Court screwed up big time on that one w/ Korematsu v. United States. I'm not saying that the registration of Muslims and their American kids is an optimal solution, but it's not nearly as bad as internment. I think a better solution is just keeping a very close NSA watch on them because let's face it, we're all monitored by them at a certain extent. If we're already doing that, great. I don't care what the gov't does to maintain our safety, as long as they don't imprison them w/o due process. If they do that, then I will support them and strongly oppose it.

And you know what a majority of Japanese-Americans did during this time? They proved their loyalty by serving in the military, and they were the most decorated battalion/whatever term in U.S. military history. I do acknowledge that there were others who weren't supportive of military service, but what do you expect? I'm glad that a majority did, but you can't expect full support. Unfortunately, the Muslim Americans have to be the big man, just like how the Japanese Americans toughed it out. If people believe that Muslims are easily radicalized in this day and age, then there's a problem with how we push American values and patriotism. It also insults them as a people because that means that the implication is that they're too weak minded or willed to resist joining a violent political/"religious" group.

Sorry about the long post. I just wanted to show that there was some historical precedent for this. Also, don't feel sorry for my family, since the gov't did apologize and award reparations during Reagan's and H.W. Bush's years.

Anyways, AG95, you're not going to be the only one that could vote in their first presidential election this year. I turned 18 in February, so unfortunately, I have the privilege to vote for Donald Trump, Gary Johnson, or write in Clint Eastwood who was mayor of Carmel in 1986. CA is already lost to the Democrats, so I don't care too much.

It's the opposite for me in my state. I can't picture Georgia turning blue this year. Actually, I can't picture it turning blue at all.

Something needs to be done to keep a closer eye on Muslims who have shown signs of or are thought to radicalized. I'm not sure what the best method would be. I believe that this is much more serious of a matter than the Japanese during WW2. Times have changed and so has technology and weapons. I feel wrong for judging an entire religious group like that, but how can you determine who the Ok ones are? It's impossible, so some type of system of observance is needed that is of better quality of the current system.

[NightMistBlue]

Mmmm... Simon Kirke. Sorry, got distracted for a moment.

There's an editorial in the local newspaper this morning called "The Loneliness of the Pro-Life Democrat." I could write one called "The Loneliness of the Immigration Enforcement Democrat." I'm not a single-issue person, I also care deeply about the environment, which puts me in a difficult position. Trump is a bit of a madman (not in the fun sense of the word either) but the Dems have gone so far left with this open borders policy that I'm not comfortable voting for them. The Green Party does not want borders enforced either, and instead recommends that the U.S. "improve economic and social conditions abroad to reduce the flow of immigrant refugees." Oh sure, why not give all our money away :roll:

[AlreadyGone95]

Mmmm... Simon Kirke. Sorry, got distracted for a moment.

There's an editorial in the local newspaper this morning called "The Loneliness of the Pro-Life Democrat." I could write one called "The Loneliness of the Immigration Enforcement Democrat." I'm not a single-issue person, I also care deeply about the environment, which puts me in a difficult position. Trump is a bit of a madman (not in the fun sense of the word either) but the Dems have gone so far left with this open borders policy that I'm not comfortable voting for them. The Green Party does not want borders enforced either, and instead recommends that the U.S. "improve economic and social conditions abroad to reduce the flow of immigrant refugees." Oh sure, why not give all our money away :roll:

Bolded part: :rofl: Simon's birthday is tomorrow, so I felt the need to honor my second favorite musician some. (Plus, he's releasing a new solo album soon.)

Back on topic: I'm torn on the illegal immigrants subject. Having grown up around farming, I know that illegal Mexicans are the ones who do the hard work out in the fields. Without them, farms couldn't operate, at least not here. There are some who are legal, but not many. Here illegal immigrants do the work that most legal Americans feel is beneath them. They do the dirty work, and they do it for less than the minimum wage. Think about it: how many Americans would be willing and eager to work 10-12 hours a day in the hot sun without getting paid well? IMO, most illegal immigrants do a valuable service to this country.

I do wish that they would come over the legal way, but without them, the farms and plantations in southwest Georgia would fail because of a labor shortage.

[NightMistBlue]

Sure, but that's why we have a guest worker program.

Where I live, illegal immigrants are not just field workers, they're professionals. My boss at a newspaper where I worked was illegal. Over 40% of illegal immigrants are visa overstays.

And when you have sustained (I would use the word "uncontrolled") immigration, both legal and illegal, it dramatically changes the culture and the quality of life in that place.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Soda, I don't understand how Trump would be more of an embarrassment than Hillary. I know he has a loud mouth and he doesn't always think before he speaks but at least he didn't break the law. He is a business man who can help with trade deals, the economy, and the national debt. To me, it would be more embarrassing for America to ELECT someone who repeatedly lies to the American people and doesn't even care about the loss of American lives. How stupid would we look if we put Hillary in power when she can't even be trusted.

I'm also not understanding how people are saying that Trump only looks out for himself. He has donated to multiple charities anonymously so that he wouldn't get all the credit. He takes the time to listen to the common person and helps with whatever he can.

[GlennLover]

Soda, I don't understand how Trump would be more of an embarrassment than Hillary. I know he has a loud mouth and he doesn't always think before he speaks but at least he didn't break the law. He is a business man who can help with trade deals, the economy, and the national debt. To me, it would be more embarrassing for America to ELECT someone who repeatedly lies to the American people and doesn't even care about the loss of American lives. How stupid would we look if we put Hillary in power when she can't even be trusted.

I'm also not understanding how people are saying that Trump only looks out for himself. He has donated to multiple charities anonymously so that he wouldn't get all the credit. He takes the time to listen to the common person and helps with whatever he can.

Do you really think that Trump doesn't lie and hasn't broken any laws? Reports of some of his business deals say that they are shady at best and often harm others while filling his pockets. As a Canadian it even scares me that Trump might be elected.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Do you really think that Trump doesn't lie and hasn't broken any laws? Reports of some of his business deals say that they are shady at best and often harm others while filling his pockets. As a Canadian it even scares me that Trump might be elected.

How can Trump be more scary than Hillary though? Hillary's negligence got Americans in Benghazi KILLED.

[WalshFan88]

Trump's comments today about Russia IMO just drives the point home that he is unfit to run our country and be commander in chief. To say he is a loose cannon is an understatement to say the least.

[WalshFan88]

And here's our Joe's opinion on the matter.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/joe-walsh-hillary-clinton-donald-trump/

[DivineDon]

Soda, I don't understand how Trump would be more of an embarrassment than Hillary. I know he has a loud mouth and he doesn't always think before he speaks but at least he didn't break the law. He is a business man who can help with trade deals, the economy, and the national debt. To me, it would be more embarrassing for America to ELECT someone who repeatedly lies to the American people and doesn't even care about the loss of American lives. How stupid would we look if we put Hillary in power when she can't even be trusted.

Do you really think Trump doesn't lie and can be trusted? This was shared by a reputable source on fb.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah228/deirdrekelly25/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/deirdrekelly25/media/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg.html)
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[UndertheWire]

I don't think I've ever (knowingly) met a Republican, so I'm interested in the views of you "lifelong Republicans". What does is mean to be a Republican? What makes you different from a Democrat? I'm looking for some balance compared to the rabid comments I often see on the internet.

[scottside]

I don't think I've ever (knowingly) met a Republican, so I'm interested in the views of you "lifelong Republicans". What does is mean to be a Republican? What makes you different from a Democrat? I'm looking for some balance compared to the rabid comments I often see on the internet.

As a lifelong Republican, I believe in the following:
1)Limited government. I don't want a nanny state.
2)Strong military
3)Lower taxes
4)Secure borders
5)Sanctity of life
6)Second amendment rights (ability to carry firearms although I personally don't own a gun)

I'm sure there are others, but these are the main tenants of the Republican platform.

[Houston Baby]

I read an article in The Washington Post this morning that discussed the 2016 candidates' Secret Service code names. The Clintons will retain their code names from their previous days in the White House which means Bill's is EAGLE. Should we take that as a sign?
:wink:

[NightMistBlue]

Remember the Clintons are Fleetwood Mac fans though! 8)

Like most of us, they probably like both bands.

[travlnman2]

Trump's comments today about Russia IMO just drives the point home that he is unfit to run our country and be commander in chief. To say he is a loose cannon is an understatement to say the least.

Shakes head

You know Russia already hcked the DNC right?

As soon as he said that I knew exactly what he ment.

He said among the emails the ALREADY HAVE that the Russians got in the hack the 30,000 Hillary Emails will be AMONG WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

Context Context Context:brickwall:

Richard Nixon deletes15 minutes of tape, looses his job. Hillary deletes 30,000 emails and gets nothing.

[travlnman2]

Do you really think that Trump doesn't lie and hasn't broken any laws? Reports of some of his business deals say that they are shady at best and often harm others while filling his pockets. As a Canadian it even scares me that Trump might be elected.

1448

Pretty nice guy if you ask me

[DJ]

Shakes head

You know Russia already hcked the DNC right?

As soon as he said that I knew exactly what he ment.

He said among the emails the ALREADY HAVE that the Russians got in the hack the 30,000 Hillary Emails will be AMONG WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE.

Context Context Context:brickwall:

Richard Nixon deletes15 minutes of tape, looses his job. Hillary deletes 30,000 emails and gets nothing.

Believe me when I say I despise Politics completely. But this is true, the Russians already did have all her Emails. I do not care who you are, if you are sent classified information, and do not secure it properly, you need to be in jail. If I did this sort of thing at my job, I would at the very least have been fired. My husband is ex military. He said anyone in the military would be court martialed . Enough said.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Do you really think Trump doesn't lie and can be trusted? This was shared by a reputable source on fb.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah228/deirdrekelly25/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/deirdrekelly25/media/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg.html)
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As far as I know, this quote is false. After doing research, I have found no such interview of Donald Trump with People Magazine where he said this.

Trump was actually being quite clever with what he sarcastically said about the Russians and the deleted emails. By saying this, he got the Clinton campaign to admit that there was classified information in the deleted emails. Originally, Hillary said that the emails contained her yoga schedule and wedding plans but in response to Trump's comment, she said that he was putting security at risk. By saying that, she is admitting that emails contained classified information because if they were hacked, American security would be at risk.

[UndertheWire]

So the choice is between someone who has been inept when using technology and someone offends large numbers of people every time he opens his mouth and who has maintained his personal wealth while taking his companies into bankruptcy on four occasions letting lenders, suppliers and employees take the hit?

One you can address by ensuring she has the support that will allow her to do her job without such errors in the future and with the other, the finances of the country are controlled by a different part of government but how do you gag a president?

[UndertheWire]

Fixed it for ya. @UndertheWire
I find it offensive that you are putting your words as if they are written by me. Please remove.

You are free to disagree with me and place your own views but to represent them as coming from me is wrong.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I find it offensive that you are putting your words as if they are written by me. Please remove.

You are free to disagree with me and place your own views but to represent them as coming from me is wrong.

I agree UTW. It is extremely bad netiquette to edit someone's post in that manner. Please edit or delete your post, travlnman2. If you don't, then it will be deleted.

[travlnman2]

I will delete it and apologize if it offended you but what I added was true but it not appropriate to add it in your quote. I should have said it in a original post.

[AlreadyGone95]

So the choice is between someone who has been inept when using technology and someone offends large numbers of people every time he opens his mouth and who has maintained his personal wealth while taking his companies into bankruptcy on four occasions letting lenders, suppliers and employees take the hit?

One you can address by ensuring she has the support that will allow her to do her job without such errors in the future and with the other, the finances of the country are controlled by a different part of government but how do you gag a president?

Trump has actually declared bankruptcy six times.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/21/hillary-clinton/yep-donald-trumps-companies-have-declared-bankrupt/

Most Republicans and some Democrats believe that Clinton knew what was doing with the emails. I honestly don't trust either of them.

[UndertheWire]

It's a bad situation when you have to decide who is least bad out of two bad candidates.

When I get despondent, I remind myself of how worried I was in the 80s when Reagan was elected and started his "Strategic Defence Initiative". It seemed like we were heading for a nuclear war and yet, by the end of the decade, we saw the end of The Cold War and the fall of the Berlin War.

[WalshFan88]

So the choice is between someone who has been inept when using technology and someone offends large numbers of people every time he opens his mouth and who has maintained his personal wealth while taking his companies into bankruptcy on four occasions letting lenders, suppliers and employees take the hit?

One you can address by ensuring she has the support that will allow her to do her job without such errors in the future and with the other, the finances of the country are controlled by a different part of government but how do you gag a president?

Exactly.

[travlnman2]

Exactly.

So what 6 times out of 5,000?

Hillary caused the death of 4 Americans in Bengazhi is paid illegally through a charitable foundation for speeches in foreign countries. She also can't handle classified information and can break the law and get away with it

To me that's more dangerous then someone who hurts your feelings.

My .02

Trump also ranks more in trustworthiness the Hillary who is the first presidenatal candidate to not pass a basic background check

As usual the media gives her praise unbelievable.

[MortSahlFan]

I was a Bernie supporter (anti-Hillary)... Out of a country with 330 million people, THIS is the best we can do?

[sodascouts]

Do you really think Trump doesn't lie and can be trusted? This was shared by a reputable source on fb.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah228/deirdrekelly25/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg (http://s1381.photobucket.com/user/deirdrekelly25/media/Donald%20Trump_zpsw8lxsxs4.jpg.html)
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I'm afraid your source fell for a lie.

http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/ (http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/)

I hate it when people make memes like this. If a person dislikes Trump, they can certainly find plenty of real reasons. Why do these meme makers feel they need to make up lies? It happens all the time. I've gotten to the point where I trust none of the political memes shared on Facebook - my default for "damning" quotes or statistics shared via photo meme is "probably made up or at least distorted."

DD, you are not the first - or sadly, the last - to believe that the quote was real. Several of my friends have shared it on Facebook. However, it's a good idea to double check whenever a quote sounds "too good to be true" (the reference to Fox News from a quote supposedly made in 1998 is a red flag; the channel was around then, but not very well-known). I use Snopes.com; they've very good about verifying memes.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I usually avoid discussing politics here, but this election season is unlike any I’ve seen in my lifetime. It is very sad that Americans do not seem to have a good choice of two qualified and credible candidates. I, for one, think the exchange of ideas between the left and the right are healthy conversation and ultimately make us a stronger, better nation when we are able to come together and take what’s best from each side. But, this kind of rational debate is sorely missing from our national conversation in this election.

I find Donald Trump’s fearmongering rhetoric to be offensive, ignorant, dishonest, and extremely divisive. To be honest, he was probably never going to get my vote because I have never been enamored with his huge ego or previous claims that President Obama was not born in the United States of America. So, if he doesn’t lie, then it must be true that Obama was never eligible to run for the office and is an illegitimate fraud???

But, early on in this election cycle, Trump could have gotten my respect by offering thoughtful and practical solutions to America’s problems. However, after listening to him for the last several months, I am outraged by most of what comes out of his mouth. But, out of all his ridiculous remarks and actions, and there are many, I think I was most offended and disgusted by these …


Making fun of a handicapped journalist
Saying that John McCain was not a war hero
Generalizing about Mexicans being rapist
Calling our military a disaster


To me, some of our president’s most important responsibility is to be a role model, to give us hope, and to lift us up - mission not accomplished by any of those remarks. I can say with conviction that Donald Trump does not represent conservative values of the Republican party as I know it, which, of course, is why many conservatives are not supporting his candidacy. As a matter of fact, he doesn’t represent American values as I know them either. With the exception of native American Indians, we are all descendents of immigrants in this country. If Donald Trump’s ideas on immigration had been in practice when this country was first founded, none of us would likely be here. Then when he proclaims that he alone can fix America’s problems, I am appalled. IIRC, we fought a war a couple of centuries ago to become independent of monarchy and dictatorship. There is no way that I want a man with these views representing my country and I absolutely would never trust him to decide whether or not to send one of my loved ones into combat.

I will share my views about Hillary Clinton in another post because this one is already a lot longer than what I usually like to write.

[WalshFan88]

To me that's more dangerous then someone who hurts your feelings.

To me, travlnman2 - this goes beyond "hurting your feelings". Not only is he rude and very un-presidential, he really is scary with some of his viewpoints and IMO, is unstable. I fear a lot more for America's future with him at the helm, than her. Again, she's not perfect but she has the experience and when it comes right down to it, I feel more comfortable with her having the nuclear codes than him. He truly is not only appalling, but he also really shows more and more every day why I think he's unfit to run this country (USA).

Obviously, we are polar opposites on this, which is fine. That's why we all can vote the way we want and support who we want. It's a beautiful thing.

[travlnman2]

Just going to post this here. Warning it is very long

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are in a bar. Donald leans over, and With A smile on his face, says, "The media is really tearing you apart for That Scandal."
Hillary: "You mean my lying about Benghazi?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "You mean the massive voter fraud?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "You mean the military not getting their votes counted?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Using my secret private server with classified material to Hide my Activities?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "The NSA monitoring our phone calls, emails and everything Else?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Using the Clinton Foundation as a cover for tax evasion, Hiring Cronies, And taking bribes from foreign countries?
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "You mean the drones being operated in our own country without The Benefit of the law?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Giving 123 Technologies $300 Million, and right afterward it Declared Bankruptcy and was sold to the Chinese?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "You mean arming the Muslim Brotherhood and hiring them in the White House?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Whitewater, Watergate committee, Vince Foster, commodity Deals?"
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "The funding of neoNazis in the Ukraine that led to the toppling of the democratically elected president and to the biggest crisis that country has had since WWII ?"
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Turning Libya into chaos?"
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Being the mastermind of the so-called “Arab Spring” that only brought chaos, death and destruction to the Middle East and North Africa ?
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Leaving four Americans to die in Benghazi and go to sleep?
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Trashing Mubarak, one of our few Muslim friends?"
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Encouraging and supporting the murders of Palestinians and the destruction of their homes, towns and villages by Israel ?"
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "The funding and arming of terrorists in Syria, the destruction and destabilization of that nation, giving the order to our lapdogs in Turkey and Saudi Arabia to give sarin gas to the "moderate" terrorists in Syria that they eventually used on civilians, and framed Assad, and had it not been for the Russians and Putin, we would have used that as a pretext to invade Syria, put a puppet in power, steal their natural resources, and leave that country in total chaos, just like we did with Libya?
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "The creation of the biggest refugees crisis since WWII
Trump: "No the other one:"
Hillary: "Leaving Iraq in chaos? "
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "The DOJ spying on the press?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "You mean HHS Secretary Sibelius shaking down health insurance Executives?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Giving our cronies in SOLYNDRA $500 MILLION DOLLARS and 3 Months Later they declared bankruptcy and then the Chinese bought it?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "The NSA monitoring citizens' ?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "The State Department interfering with an Inspector General Investigation on departmental sexual misconduct?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Me, The IRS, Clapper and Holder all lying to Congress?"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "Threats to all of Bill's former mistresses to keep them quiet"
Trump: "No, the other one."
Hillary: "I give up! ... Oh wait, I think I've got it! When I stole the White House furniture, silverware, when Bill left Office?"
Trump: "THAT'S IT! I almost forgot about that one".

[travlnman2]

To me, travlnman2 - this goes beyond "hurting your feelings". Not only is he rude and very un-presidential, he really is scary with some of his viewpoints and IMO, is unstable. I fear a lot more for America's future with him at the helm, than her. Again, she's not perfect but she has the experience and when it comes right down to it, I feel more comfortable with her having the nuclear codes than him. He truly is not only appalling, but he also really shows more and more every day why I think he's unfit to run this country (USA).

Obviously, we are polar opposites on this, which is fine. That's why we all can vote the way we want and support who we want. It's a beautiful thing.

So you are okay witth someone who can't even handle classified information and caused the death of FOUR Americans got ya. But at leat we are able to have elections

[WalshFan88]

So you are okay witth someone who can't even handle classified information and caused the death of FOUR Americans got ya. But at leat we are able to have elections

Ok, I'm going to bow out now but I'm going to say something:

We can disagree on this but please don't make it sound like I'm ok with what happened in Benghazi or with people dying. I obviously am not.

[travlnman2]

Ok, I'm going to bow out now but I'm going to say something:

We can disagree on this but please don't make it sound like I'm ok with what happened in Benghazi or with people dying. I obviously am not.

My apologies. I sounded way to harsh and condescending I will try to find a more healthy way of making opinons. At leadt one thing we can all agree on is that we are Eagles fans and that is our main purpose here. Cheers mate

[RudieCantFail]

I think it'd be much more productive to discuss their policies/whatever the heck they want to do to this country rather than their characters. Both of them are despicable, IMO. One's a loud-mouth jerk and the other is a shifty liar who has changed her stances a lot over the years. Trump has shifted a lot too. He's no true Republican Conservative at all.

Trump in summary: build the wall, monitor Muslims more closely/establish a registration, being a little more liberal on social issues, tackle ISIS by putting boots on the ground or something like that, the tax plan that I haven't read into yet. ignore the benefits of free trade by evoking "China, China, CHINA!" and bringing jobs back to America. There may be a few other things that I missed. EDIT: Free trade is what makes things affordable here. If manufacturing in another country is more cost efficient, then that's a step forward, not backward. Yeah sure, American jobs are lost, but who likes to pay more for stuff? I'm just saying, New Balance is one of the few shoe makers who manufactures in the US, but I think Nike has a bigger market share. Nike does its stuff overseas, so its stuff would be cheaper but tariffs are evoked. I don't think it's as bad to evoke tariffs to make US manufacturing competitive with foreigners, but it depends case by case. Economics is a tricky duck and there's always an "on one hand... but on the other hand..." Trump is just appealing to American factory workers, and if we constantly try to save them, then we're taking a step backward. It's regressive, instead of going forward.

Hillary in summary: free, free, free stuff for everyone! Ranging from: college education, paid leave for parents, expanding Social Security, and etc. But what she doesn't tell you is that this expands gov't and increases the Nat'l Debt. She then mentions equal pay for equal work, ignoring whether or not the same amount of output is achieved. Being for climate change laws that help stop it without being clear if pollution permits would be the way to go. Economically, using permits is more efficient b/c the firms get to distribute the permits efficiently based on how expensive it is to reduce pollution. Taxation and strong-arm tactics backfire/they come at a steep cost. Tax and strong arm the rich to redistribute the wealth.

Yeah, I know that I'm being unfair to both candidates by putting a spin on what I think, especially for Hillary. I added things to Hillary b/c she doesn't tell you the negative effects of what she wants. What the Democratic Party tends to push sounds great, but in the long run, it expands the power of the Federal Gov't, the Executive Branch, and increases the Nat'l Debt. Who cares about the debt if we're all going to be dead before we see it go down? It ain't my problem!

Heck, I'm not too hot on Trump either b/c he's just a motor mouth of seemingly conservative policies. His stance on immigration and nat'l security is conservative, but the execution is terrible. He's full of hot air and fluff without any real solutions. I could say the same for Hillary on some things.

Gosh, why didn't Ted Cruz win? He would have wiped the floor with Hillary and I would've loved it. Donald is probably going to look like a total buffoon in comparison during the debates, but the Trumpers are going to eat it up. I'll give him the benefit of a doubt though b/c I just vehemently disagree with Clinton but I dislike Trump heavily as the GOP nomination.

Plus, if you want to hear a conservative voice that criticizes both Trump and Hillary, I recommend Ben Shapiro's Twitter and Podcast. I'm just putting it out there, so I don't care if you look at it or not.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

For me personally, I feel l have to exercise my right to vote for love of country. Whether I like it or not, the fact is that either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump is going to be the next President of the United States, so those are my choices. I’m simply choosing the candidate who I believe has the more positive vision and plan for our country and who is better prepared to run and represent America both at home and abroad for the next 4 years.

Since I’ve already discussed my feelings about Donald Trump, I’ll now share some of my thoughts about Hillary Clinton. It seems from reading this thread that two of the major concerns about her are Benghazi and her email server, so that is what I am going to focus on.

With regard to the Benghazi tragedy, there have been investigations by ten (10) different Congressional Committees over a period of about 3½ years costing the American taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. And they all resulted in the conclusion that there was no wrong-doing on the part of Hillary Clinton. So, the fact that she wasn’t found culpable wasn’t for lack of trying, that’s for sure. Am I the only one that thinks this is extreme – I absolutely believe that this horrible incident should have been investigated, but I do not believe it really takes this kind of excessive inquiry to get to the truth. Just for a comparison, there was one (1) Congressional Committee investigation on the Iran Contra affair, which lasted about 4 months.

As far as the issue of Hillary’s emails, it is a definite concern that this happened. Unfortunately, she did what many others before her did, including Colin Powell. In spite of that, it was still a careless error on her part for sure, but it was based mainly on ignorance of technology rather than malice. It makes absolutely no sense that she would have operated this way intentionally to compromise our national security. This is not my account, but rather what the Republican FBI Director has testified under oath. He also said that no responsible prosecutor would bring charges in this case. But, was her error in judgment worse than her predecessors? Well, that’s something we will never know because none of them were ever investigated. So, I wonder how many more times and how much of our money Congress will spend investigating her over this? As far as I’m concerned, this has been thoroughly investigated and rightfully so. But, I think I know all I’ll ever need to know, so now I’m ready to move on. I’m going to trust that lessons have been learned and that this kind of thing would never happen again under her watch.

But, despite my distaste for these endless, futile, and costly investigations, they do seem to have been successful in painting the Clintons as unethical, corrupt liars who can’t be trusted. I guess the strategy was to repeatedly tell us how awful they are so that eventually it would permeate the American psyche. Usually, we say just because you keep saying something doesn’t make it true, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here for many Americans. Now, I’m not saying that the Clinton’s aren’t partly responsible for this perception because they have indeed provided some ammunition over the years. But, the intense scrutiny that Hillary Clinton has been under since she entered public life is unprecedented, and, yet, she has never been found guilty of breaking the law. She’s still standing and fighting instead to break the glass ceilings that still exist. To me, her perseverance has to say something about her as a person and her fitness to be president, and this is one character trait that I personally admire. I firmly believe that if she were as corrupt as her detractors believe, then they could have come up with something after all these years and years of ‘searching for the truth’. But NADA!

I hear time and time again, people say they would vote for Bill Clinton in a New York minute, yet they cannot bring themselves to vote for Hillary. Really? Now, I agree that she doesn’t have her husband’s charisma, but that aside, I just don’t get this. To me, the only reasonable explanation I can think of for this is called gender bias. This is a woman who is admired and respected all around the globe, yet, she is being vilified here in her own country. And finally, I’d like to throw in a good word for Senator Tim Kaine from my home state who I have had the pleasure of meeting on a few occasions. He is widely considered a man of high integrity, and I take him at his word. He knows Hillary and if he feels she is trustworthy and morally fit, then I am placing my faith in his judgment.


** My apologies for the length of this post. I tried shorten it, but it didn't work out too well. :cheers:

[WalshFan88]

My apologies. I sounded way to harsh and condescending I will try to find a more healthy way of making opinons. At leadt one thing we can all agree on is that we are Eagles fans and that is our main purpose here. Cheers mate

Absolutely!

[scottside]

I hear time and time again, people say they would vote for Bill Clinton in a New York minute, yet they cannot bring themselves to vote for Hillary. Really?

Hillary's politics are NOTHING like Bill's were. He ran as a moderate Democrat and was able to work with Republicans fairly well in the 90s. Hillary is way left of him and as a conservative, I find most of her positions offensive. She will get nothing done as President if the house and senate remain Republican.

[mimi g]

"Hillary is way left of him and as a conservative, I find most of her positions offensive. She will get nothing done as President if the house and senate remain Republican."

Sadly, I think this thread was not a good idea for the Eagles Board, but I have to respond to above.

As a proud liberal/progressive, it's ridiculous when a conservative opines on how "left" a candidate is---Hillary is not "left" of Bill--- you have no clue & let's leave it at that...

I find comments like yours offensive, as I find the Republican Congress offensive. Its only mission has been to obstruct & work against the President & this country for years. Lastly the kindest thing I can say about Trump & republican positions is that they're offensive, I pray to God that Republicans lose the stranglehold over this country.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

Hillary's politics are NOTHING like Bill's were. He ran as a moderate Democrat and was able to work with Republicans fairly well in the 90s. Hillary is way left of him and as a conservative, I find most of her positions offensive. She will get nothing done as President if the house and senate remain Republican.

I think your point is a fair one, ss. And I agree with you and RCF that it would be better to have a discussion of the issues in this thread. Regarding your comments, I think you are correct that the Democratic Party platform has moved more toward the left since Bill Clinton ran for president. However, the Republican Party has also moved more toward the right since the days of Ronald Reagan. In the eyes of many, Hillary Clinton is viewed as way too moderate, which is a big part of the reason that Bernie Sanders was so successful in the Democratic primaries. (Personally, I find Bernie very likeable, but I can’t support a lot of his views). I think your concern that Hillary will be unable to work effectively with a Republican Congress is a valid one. However, to me, Trump’s divisive politics and extreme proposals means he would be even less effective. I fear either candidate may lead to more of the same regarding getting anything done in Washington, which is why I wish we had better choices. But, while both candidates are divisive, I would submit that Hillary has a better chance of working with Congress because she is viewed as more of a centrist by Washington insiders – and after all, she can always leverage Bill to help out. In any event, it is what it is and I’m just hoping that whoever wins will find a way to get on with the business of running our country.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Dreamer, I understand your point about Trump's stance on immigration. But it's not like the wall Trump wants to build won't have a door. He welcomes those that want to work hard for their American citizenship. He's trying to keep out those that want a free ride from the government or could be dangerous.

mimi, I'm not seeing how the Republican Congress is offensive. Am I happy with every law they've passed? No. Do I wish they would pass more laws that are important? Yes. But it could be much worse. For example, if there was a Democratic Congress, our 2nd Amendment rights probably would be non existent or heavily limited right now. The right to keep and bear arms is very important to my family and me because we live on a farm with many animals that need to be protected mainly from possums, raccoons, and coyotes. Also, knowing that my family has firearms makes me feel much more comfortable in case of attack. I know I can defend myself if something happened and I'm not unarmed and helpless. That is another reason why I support Trump. He wants to preserve the 2nd Amendment. He's a member of the NRA himself! Hillary won't even admit that keeping and bearing arms is a Constitutional right. It seems that she doesn't respect the Constitution of the United States of America.

[RudieCantFail]

Welcome to California, where gun laws are so restrictive that San Bernardino still happened. Gov. Jerry Brown just signed a law to take away people's high capacity magazines that people bought from like the 1980s or before. People couldn't buy magazines that held 10 or more rounds since 1994. These laws hurt law abiding citizens by making them pay more money to the gov't. The assault weapons ban is a fluke, and you had to pay a fee to register your long rifle as an AW. You can't really use it anymore or transfer/sell it. An AR-15 is no more dangerous than a handgun, since all guns are dangerous. It doesn't matter what you get shot at with because guess what, the injury is going to be pretty serious most of the time. I find it reprehensible when Congress members pass laws to restrict gun rights, when they have no frickin' clue of how guns work, their classifications, and etc. I mean, Don Lemon on CNN thought that an AR-15 fired like a machine gun.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt-c5HiQ8-c (Don Lemon is the one that's mistaken, ignore the title)
He thought that it was an "automatic weapon" when it's not. It shoots one round per one pull of a trigger. It's extremely difficult to get weapons that fire multiple rounds with one squeeze of a trigger. There were laws passed in the 1930s to prevent such a thing. They still exist but in really small numbers. Some people are politically correct on mostly everything else, except on how guns work and their classifications. They're indiscriminate when it comes to guns. I'm not accusing any of you of being like this, but I'm just saying in general, esp. when it comes to the lawmakers and media people.

When the big earthquake happens and looters run amok on the streets, well uh, those anti-gun people might be saying sorry. Hope nothing bad happens to them, but sometimes, the worst happens. Also, when riots happen, a gun is very useful. The Koreans shop owners during the 1992 LA Riots defended their stores and shot at looters. They didn't kill anybody from what I've heard, but they only shot to scare them away. The police refused to go in those afflicted areas in the first days of the riots.

Also, gun sales have been going way up because people are afraid that the gov't is going to restrict them more and more. The price of an AR-15 was $700 2-3 weeks ago and now it's up to $900 because of high demand.

SoaringRockyMountainWay, I'm glad for you that Michigan isn't that restrictive, especially since you need it in the rural area. The police isn't going to shoot a possum for you, so good for you on that. I don't know how far away you live from Detroit, but I can only imagine that it would make you feel safer carrying one in the bad parts of that city.

[UndertheWire]

As a lifelong Republican, I believe in the following:
1)Limited government. I don't want a nanny state.
2)Strong military
3)Lower taxes
4)Secure borders
5)Sanctity of life
6)Second amendment rights (ability to carry firearms although I personally don't own a gun)

I'm sure there are others, but these are the main tenants of the Republican platform.
Thanks for this. I've been thinking on this and trying to put myself in the position of someone who would have a vote. If I had been born and raised in the US, I might feel differently but if I was to become a US citizen now, given my background, I would not be a Republican because I have different priorities (for example, universal healthcare and strong gun controls).

[travlnman2]

I am leaning towards Trump but Hillary has the media on her side. It is obvious that everything Trrump says even if it is not offfensive is used by the media to make look like Hitler etc



I am more with the Screwed either way camp

[Brooke]

I haven't posted here, but I must say I am a conservative Republican and will vote for Trump. I know he isn't perfect, but I think he is the only hope at this point for our country.

Please read this article. It helps explain the differences.

http://townhall.com/columnists/waynegrudem/2016/07/28/why-voting-for-donald-trump-is-a-morally-good-choice-n2199564

[scottside]

Brooke, I haven't seen this article before and it makes sense to me as I also consider myself a conservative Republican. However, I can see a lot of people being turned off by its Christian slant (I consider myself to be a Christian so I was not) which in unfortunate.

Trump was not my first, second or third choice in the primaries, but by the time they reached New Jersey where we live (the last primary day, by the way), he was the only one left in the race on the Republican side. I think he is deeply flawed and way too outspoken, but there is no way I could ever vote for Hillary, and that is what settled it for me.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

RudieCantFail, I live about 3 hours away from Detroit so I don't have to worry about the inner city. You never can be too careful though. Some people that live down the road from me had their house broken into. I'm sorry that gun rights are so restricted where you live. Stay safe! I'm seeing a pattern around the world that the places with the most gun restrictions are the places that have mass attacks. Being in a gun free zone, puts a target on people's backs because they can't defend themselves.

About the AR-15, it's funny how after the last attack where an AR-15 was used, Obama said he wanted to ban assault weapons but they're already banned and an AR-15 isn't even an assault rifle. That's why a Hillary presidency scares me. She wants to be Obama's third term. She probably wants to ban AR-15's. She and most of the media don't seem to understand that an AR-15 is not an assault rifle, it's less deadly than a shot gun, and it can be used for good things like shooting coyotes.

[mimi g]

I see by the majority of the comments I've read here that this is a conservative republican echo chamber with the usual, uninformed right-wing talking points.

I leave you to your darkness & ignorance.....

[travlnman2]

I see by the majority of the comments I've read here that this is a conservative republican echo chamber with the usual, uninformed right-wing talking points.

I leave you to your darkness & ignorance.....

Then why is Hillary in the lead? :stunned:. You clearly did not read the entire thread lol. So good luck with all the free stuff.

You are being offensive by calling Republicans uniformed and idiot racists.

[travlnman2]

It is not racist if I want people do come here the legal and fair way like my father did

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I see by the majority of the comments I've read here that this is a conservative republican echo chamber with the usual, uninformed right-wing talking points.

I leave you to your darkness & ignorance.....

Let's please be respectful of one another and refrain from name-calling. It doesn't help your argument any when you come across as rude.


Dreamer, I understand your point about Trump's stance on immigration. But it's not like the wall Trump wants to build won't have a door. He welcomes those that want to work hard for their American citizenship. He's trying to keep out those that want a free ride from the government or could be dangerous.

mimi, I'm not seeing how the Republican Congress is offensive. Am I happy with every law they've passed? No. Do I wish they would pass more laws that are important? Yes. But it could be much worse. For example, if there was a Democratic Congress, our 2nd Amendment rights probably would be non existent or heavily limited right now. The right to keep and bear arms is very important to my family and me because we live on a farm with many animals that need to be protected mainly from possums, raccoons, and coyotes. Also, knowing that my family has firearms makes me feel much more comfortable in case of attack. I know I can defend myself if something happened and I'm not unarmed and helpless. That is another reason why I support Trump. He wants to preserve the 2nd Amendment. He's a member of the NRA himself! Hillary won't even admit that keeping and bearing arms is a Constitutional right. It seems that she doesn't respect the Constitution of the United States of America.

Well, I am in favor of protecting our borders, but I object to the notion of building a wall. But, even more disturbing to me about Trump’s immigration policy is that he has said he intends to legally challenge the 14th amendment. He knows that he would never be able to get the amendment repealed so he will use the court system to try to deport immigrants that are already citizens in this country.

And as far as Hillary’s position on the 2nd Amendment, it is frequently misinterpreted by her opponents. Here is what she in her DNC acceptance speech:

“I’m not here to repeal the 2nd Amendment. I’m not here to take away your guns. I just don't want you to be shot by someone who shouldn't have a gun in the first place.”

So SRMW – you have absolutely nothing to fear because Hillary Clinton’ policies on gun control won’t affect people like you one bit. Even if it were true that she wanted to repeal the 2nd Amendment, it would be virtually impossible for her to do that. The framers of our Constitution made it extremely difficult to amend it and they did that on purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_amendment (Scroll down the the U.S.)

[RudieCantFail]

And as far as Hillary’s position on the 2nd Amendment, it is frequently misinterpreted by her opponents. Here is what she in her DNC acceptance speech:

“I’m not here to repeal the 2nd Amendment. I’m not here to take away your guns. I just don't want you to be shot by someone who shouldn't have a gun in the first place.”

If Clinton is referring to the no-fly list and/or terrorist watch list as a blanket gun ban for those that are on it, then there are some problems with it. Using the list to restrict constitutionally protected freedoms of the 2nd and 5th amendments isn't right. Although there are about 50,000 names on the no-fly list alone, only 1,000-2,000 of them are US citizens. Yeah, I know that number is minuscule in comparison, but I don't think it's right to ignore their rights without due process. It's an imperfect list that has on occasion mistakenly put people on it, like Sen. Ted Kennedy. I've heard it's hard to appeal to get off the list, if you think you shouldn't be on the list. I think Sen. John Cornyn put forward a bill that said that if someone on the no-fly list or the like tries to buy a gun, then a judge has a certain amount of time to decide whether the person gets to buy the gun. That method is legal and constitutional because a judge gets to clear it or not, rather than just a blanket ban w/ no questions asked.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

[QUOTE=Ive always been a dreamer;338573]
“I’m not here to repeal the 2nd Amendment. I’m not here to take away your guns. I just don't want you to be shot by someone who shouldn't have a gun in the first place.”

My reaction to this is that I don't need a crooked politician who knows little of nothing about guns to protect me from getting shot. That's why we have guns in the first place. We can defend OURSELVES from getting shot. I also don't believe that Hillary respects the 2nd Amendment because George Stephanopoulos asked her if she believed an individual's right to bear arms is a constitutional right and it's not linked to the service in the militia and her reply was, “If it is a constitutional right, then it–like every constitutional right–is subject to reasonable regulation.” She wouldn't even admit that it's a constitutional right. She just wants to regulate it.

Hillary may not be able to directly repeal the 2nd Amendment but she will appoint liberal supreme court judges who will likely vote against 2nd Amendment rights in court cases. The judges appointed will determine how US laws are interpreted. Trump will appoint judges that will vote for 2nd Amendment rights instead of jeopardizing them.

[UndertheWire]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

ETA: I posted this because in the talk about constitutional rights and feeling safe, something is getting lost. The US has a serious problem with gun deaths and those that support gun ownership should be helping whatever government is in power in their attempts to reduce these unnecessary deaths. It's not just about being able to defend yourself if someone attacks your home - it's about people with mental health issues being able to buy weapons that can kill many people in seconds, it's about your child playing at a friend's house and finding a weapon that has been stored unsafely. I'm sure you can think of other scenarios and although you might decide that you and your family are more careful than that, wouldn't you want other gun owners to have the same level of care.

I live in a country with strict gun control but I'm sure I could get a gun licence if I wanted. I know someone who owns guns that he uses at weekends for sport and pest control (local farmers call on him). He says it influences his behaviour in that he can't afford to drive when drunk or get into a brawl at the pub because he might lose his gun licence. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

[sodascouts]

I have no problem with gun control laws. I do think people should be allowed to buy guns, but if they have to jump through a bunch of hoops first and wait a bit, then so what? They'll get their guns eventually if everything checks out.

I have thought about purchasing a gun to keep in my apartment for self-defense, because I am a woman living alone. The only reason I haven't done so is that it would cost a lot of money and time to not only purchase the gun, but to get properly trained in using it and maintaining it. I'd have to take shooting lessons, practice regularly at a shooting range... it's not just buy a gun and off you go. Plus, there's always the fear that I would get something wrong; mistakes with guns can be deadly. Still, I haven't ruled out the possibility of buying a gun in the future if I move to a high crime area.

However, the argument that one should consider each candidate's potential nominees to the Supreme Court when voting is definitely a valid one, since so many judges like to legislate from the bench. An extremist Supreme Court could do a lot of damage.

[NightMistBlue]

Soda, I don't know that you'd need all that training. A gun range near me offers a one-on-one "First Steps" class for new gun owners that's $85 for 4 hours. I don't think that's rare, you can probably find something like that in your area.

My little gun was given to me by my brother. I've never fired it. I just keep it in case of a collapse of civilization and/or zombie apocalypse. It's peace of mind.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

I have no problem with background checks. In fact, I think it's a really good thing. The problem is that the government is already not doing a good job of running the background checks that are supposed to be keeping guns out of the wrong hands. People with mental health issues have been allowed to get a gun because the government systems that run the background checks haven't picked them out. Adding more gun laws isn't going to change that. It's not fair that the majority of the people, which are law abiding citizens, have to have their 2nd Amendment rights jeopardized just because of a few crazies. How about we get the mentally unstable people the care they need instead and not allow them to have a gun and get ISIS out of America instead of taking guns away from citizens that have good intentions. Also, even if all guns were completely banned, people would still find a way to kill each other. Look at the recent terrorist attacks. Knives, axes, bombs and even trucks are used for mass murder. Strictly regulating guns is not going to solve the problem. No matter what tool is used, the problem is that there are people out there who think murder is okay. You can't blame murder on the gun. Like I said, my family has guns on the farm and we never once randomly shot an innocent person. The problem is who is behind the gun, not the gun itself. Hillary Clinton doesn't seem to get that. I find it offensive that she wants to take away or at the very least restrict the American people's right to keep and bear arms while she is protected by ARMED guards.

[Brooke]

I have no problem with background checks. In fact, I think it's a really good thing. The problem is that the government is already not doing a good job of running the background checks that are supposed to be keeping guns out of the wrong hands. People with mental health issues have been allowed to get a gun because the government systems that run the background checks haven't picked them out. Adding more gun laws isn't going to change that. It's not fair that the majority of the people, which are law abiding citizens, have to have their 2nd Amendment rights jeopardized just because of a few crazies. How about we get the mentally unstable people the care they need instead and not allow them to have a gun and get ISIS out of America instead of taking guns away from citizens that have good intentions. Also, even if all guns were completely banned, people would still find a way to kill each other. Look at the recent terrorist attacks. Knives, axes, bombs and even trucks are used for mass murder. Strictly regulating guns is not going to solve the problem. No matter what tool is used, the problem is that there are people out there who think murder is okay. You can't blame murder on the gun. Like I said, my family has guns on the farm and we never once randomly shot an innocent person. The problem is who is behind the gun, not the gun itself. Hillary Clinton doesn't seem to get that. I find it offensive that she wants to take away or at the very least restrict the American people's right to keep and bear arms while she is protected by ARMED guards.

Good points, SRMW. I'm with you here.

[WalshFan88]

My view on the whole "No Bill, No Break" watch list thing is this:

IMO, someone on the "no fly" or TERRORIST list should NEVER be able to get a gun ever again. I don't care if it's going against the second amendment, IMO they gave up their second amendment rights when they did what they did to get on those lists. I am though, supportive, of letting them have them if they can prove they were on such lists in error and can prove that and go through testing and extensive background checks. But someone who is on those lists actively should never be able to own a firearm, second amendment or not. To me it's insane that someone who is on a national watch list could get a firearm!!! I absolutely detest Paul Ryan in this case (and in most cases, TBH). Their ties to the NRA are more important than national security it seems. :sigh: I support gun control in this case. I think it's not about taking away all guns, but controlling those who can get them. And for god's sakes, the ones on a terrorist watch list. I was fuming when I saw the whole thing with the house sit in and the fact that the Republicans were against it, for their own personal gain. I feel Hillary's comment sums it up (something to the affect of) "I don't want to take YOUR guns (the good people protecting themselves), I just want to make sure someone doesn't kill you with THEIRS (the bad guys)". I believe in that wholeheartedly. But that's just me.

[UndertheWire]

I have no problem with background checks. In fact, I think it's a really good thing. The problem is that the government is already not doing a good job of running the background checks that are supposed to be keeping guns out of the wrong hands. People with mental health issues have been allowed to get a gun because the government systems that run the background checks haven't picked them out. Adding more gun laws isn't going to change that. It's not fair that the majority of the people, which are law abiding citizens, have to have their 2nd Amendment rights jeopardized just because of a few crazies. How about we get the mentally unstable people the care they need instead and not allow them to have a gun and get ISIS out of America instead of taking guns away from citizens that have good intentions. Also, even if all guns were completely banned, people would still find a way to kill each other. Look at the recent terrorist attacks. Knives, axes, bombs and even trucks are used for mass murder. Strictly regulating guns is not going to solve the problem. No matter what tool is used, the problem is that there are people out there who think murder is okay. You can't blame murder on the gun. Like I said, my family has guns on the farm and we never once randomly shot an innocent person. The problem is who is behind the gun, not the gun itself. Hillary Clinton doesn't seem to get that. I find it offensive that she wants to take away or at the very least restrict the American people's right to keep and bear arms while she is protected by ARMED guards.

The recent event in London was a knife attack that killed one and injured 4-5. How much higher would these numbers have been if the attacker had used a gun? The difference is the efficiency of the weapon.

Do you think it acceptable that the US has a homicide rate that is so much higher than any other developed country?

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Walshfan88, with the whole House sit in thing I thought the Democrats were being childish in stopping all other legislation and just sitting there until they got their way. But I share in your frustrations of both sides not cooperating to actually get stuff done.

UtW, the amount of people killed with a gun would depend on the gun. A .22 caliber wouldn't have done that much damage while a shot gun would have been much worse. A shot gun is actually more deadly than an AR-15. As far as the homicide rate goes, it's sad that people have died but I don't think gun control will change it all that much. If there weren't as many gun free zones, people wouldn't be targeted and they could defend themselves. Also, if the government already can't handle the gun laws that are in place, how are they going to enforce new gun laws? In my mind, better use of the current gun laws and less gun free zones would help the problem. It would also be good to give people the mental or emotional help they need so they don't tend to do violent acts. Early release of felons and allowing ISIS to radicalize people is also part of the problem. Getting dangerous people off the streets and arming more good citizens should be the goal.

In the big picture, more people die from smoking and alcohol abuse than death caused by a gun shot. Yet know one tries to fix that issue. It's all blamed on the guns.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Preventable_causes_of_death.svg/277px-Preventable_causes_of_death.svg.png

[WalshFan88]

I just think that with the no fly list I'm a guilty-until-proven-innocent guy on this. Because, IMO, if we do it the other way, by the time they are proven guilty, it could be too late and lives potentially could already be lost. The goal is to stop it before it happens.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I believe the gun control issue is one very good example of why our political system is in dire need of reform. In spite of the fact that well over 75% of Americans support stricter gun laws, powerful lobbyist have enough influence over some elected officials so that the will of the people is repeatedly ignored. They also continuously frame the argument as if gun control proponents will repeal the 2nd Amendment and take guns away from those who legally own them. I find it offensive to use to these kind of deceptive scare tactics to misrepresent other’s opinions. Now, I don’t have a lot of knowledge about guns, but I think I certainly understand the problems they can cause. So, as a strong proponent of stricter gun laws, let me set the record straight about what I stand for …


Protection of the 2nd Amendment
Stronger enforcement of existing gun laws
Universal background checks for any purchase of a firearm
Universal waiting period for any purchase of a firearm
Federal ban on assault style weapons
Federal rationing laws to limit ammunition sales to an individual
Mandatory requirement for ammunition dealers to report bulk sales
Universal federal licensing requirements for all firearms dealers
Universal federal licensing requirements for all firearms purchasers
Modify mental heath laws to improve restrictions on gun ownership and sales for the mentally ill

Although my list goes beyond what either President Obama or Hillary Clinton have proposed, there is not one single item on this list that would threaten the 2nd Amendment or legal ownership of most guns. They would indeed make it more inconvenient to purchase a gun, but, to me, that’s a small sacrifice if it helps keep guns out of the hands of deranged individuals. Nothing we do will stop gun violence altogether, but a combination of these proposals will surely make more of a difference than doing nothing. For those who say stricter laws won’t change things that much, try telling that to the loved ones of victims who lost their lives to mass shootings at a school or university campus, a church, a movie theater, a nightclub, or a protest rally as a law enforcement officer there to protect citizens.

[MaryCalifornia]

I'm just really depressed and embarrassed about the whole thing. I can't believe these are our choices. I don't know what went wrong.

I'm registered as a democrat bc obviously I'm liberal on social issues and abortion, but I would vote for a moderate Republican who believes in equal rights for everyone.

Cannot envision Bill Clinton and his perverted ways being back in the White House.

I'm considering exercising my right to not vote this year. I'm not worried about Trump winning, I doubt he'll still be in the race in Nov, he may be out by next month. I actually think the whole thing is a farce and he entered to help Hilary. He can literally say and do anything and the non-college-educated white men still think he's the one for us!! It's like he's playing a trick, and some are actually buying it.

This entire episode is just mortifying.

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

Dreamer, assault style weapons are already banned for use by civilians. Those that manufacture, import, and sell guns in business already must be licensed. Sorry if you already knew that. I just wanted to make sure that you knew some of the things you support have been done. Also, I feel very sorry for the families of victims of mass shootings. It's a tragic thing that so many people died. I'm not trying to brush it off my shoulder. But look at the places you listed. With the exception of a rally, all those places are gun free zones. Therefore, all those people have a target on their backs because an attacker knows that those people can't defend themselves. They are unarmed and helpless. Let's hypothetically say that there was someone in the nightclub who was carrying a gun. The terrorist had a semiautomatic weapon so he couldn't blow off rounds extremely quickly and he would have to take the time to aim because he doesn't have a shot gun. So the person carrying the gun could have the opportunity to sneak up behind the terrorist and shoot him. That person's gun could have saved many lives. But that's a gun free zone so none of the people inside could have carried out that plan and saved lives. So think about telling the families of the victims that lives could've been saved if it wasn't a gun free zone. As far as the rally goes, that's a people problem not a gun problem. People need to respect the police and listen to what they tell them to do. I find it appalling that some of the people in Black Lives Matter call for death to the police and Hillary supports this group. If violence is promoted, guess what's going to happen. Violence. I don't think gun laws are going to change that. Whether it's at a nightclub or a rally, I think we should work on getting the terrorists out and stopping the promotion of violence toward the police. But I do think as well that existing gun laws should be enforced more strongly and the background check system should be updated. Instead of making everything about guns, let's work on all the problems to save lives.

Also, I disagree with your proposal of rationing of ammunition. My family goes through a lot of ammo just in target practice. In order to be accurate in shooting a raccoon, possum, or coyote, you have to be familiar with the gun. It can take a lot of target practice to get used to the kick of the gun, find a comfortable position to hold the gun, and know where to aim from different distances and elevations. Whenever you put new sights or a scope on a gun you have to sight it in. You have to find out if you're shooting too high or too low or too far left or too far right and dial the scope accordingly. It can take a lot of rounds to get the gun accurate. Of course when it comes time to defend the farm from wild animals or defend myself from an attacker, I want to make sure I have ammo. I don't want to be in a situation where there's a coyote about to kill my dog and I don't have any ammo. If ammunition was rationed, my family and I wouldn't be good marksmen, our guns wouldn't be accurate, and there would be raccoons running rampant on the farm.

[Scarlet Sun]

I actually think the whole thing is a farce and he entered to help Hilary. He can literally say and do anything and the non-college-educated white men still think he's the one for us!! It's like he's playing a trick, and some are actually buying it.

I wouldn't be at all surprised

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

I'm considering exercising my right to not vote this year. I'm not worried about Trump winning, I doubt he'll still be in the race in Nov, he may be out by next month. I actually think the whole thing is a farce and he entered to help Hilary. He can literally say and do anything and the non-college-educated white men still think he's the one for us!! It's like he's playing a trick, and some are actually buying it.


MaryCalifornia, I'm a female who will be a senior in high school in the fall so I haven't gone to college yet but I've had a 4.0 GPA for the past 3 years, got a 97% in government class, and a 96% in economics and I support Donald Trump. If you didn't see his recent speech about the economy, I encourage you to look it up. Everything he proposed makes sense. He wants to cut business taxes so that businesses will come back to America and therefore create new jobs. He also wants to cut income taxes so that individuals will invest in the economy. Then he wants to renegotiate trade deals so that we don't have trade deficits. With the money saved from not having trade deficits, he will build up the military and the American infrastructure. Hillary wants to raise taxes on the dwindling middle class. This is a disincentive to be successful so people will not want to work hard and do well for themselves when they're going to be penalized for it. Instead, there is an incentive to do nothing and live off the government. With the middle class disappearing, there will be no one left to support those living on welfare and the whole system will implode. Hillary wants to raise minimum wage. She has flipped back and forth on this issue but last I heard she still wants to raise it. If she does this, businesses will no longer be able to support the same amount of employees so they will have to lay off workers. This will make the unemployment rate go up. She also wants to keep Obamacare. Obamacare has caused businesses to lay off employees because they can't support them and it has starved out the middle class. Here's a real life story about Obamacare. My grandma and grandpa's insurance went up 60% for each person because of Obamacare. My grandpa can't even get a new truck even though his current one is literally falling apart because they can't afford it. My grandpa hardly ever gets excited about anything but he is excited about and believes in Donald Trump. He knows that Trump wants to repeal Obamacare and help the middle class that is struggling. Although he is eligible, my grandpa has never voted because he has never believed in a candidate enough to take the time to vote. Because of Trump, my grandpa registered to vote.

Just remember, by not voting you are giving the presidency to Hillary Clinton.

[WalshFan88]

My my, my concerns with Trump keep being more frequent.

His comments about the second amendment people, regardless of how he meant it (it was in the way he said it) are frightening. I think he's a loose cannon and is a scary, scary person.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-second-amendment/index.html

[Ive always been a dreamer]

SRMW – I think we are going to have to agree to disagree about the issue of gun control. In spite of your articulate post, these arguments are not convincing to me. It’s certainly nothing personal, but I’m just a strong believer that we need to take measures to control whose hands guns fall into.


Instead of making everything about guns, let's work on all the problems to save lives.

I don’t believe there is any one single answer to the problem, but a combination of all the ideas that have been suggested will help save lives, including gun control reform. As we’ve been saying, there is no cure-all. However, I personally do not want to live in a country where it’s up to individuals to protect themselves in a public setting. We are a country of laws, and I prefer to rely on trained law enforcement professionals to preserve law and order and public safety. I certainly don’t want to live in a police state, but neither do I think armed citizens in a potential shoot out is an acceptable solution. As you said, violence begets violence so volatile situations can easily escalate out of control. So … do away with gun free zones – uh, no thank you.


Dreamer, assault style weapons are already banned for use by civilians.

I do not believe that there is any ban of assault style weapons at the federal level. I believe a few states have banned them. To clarify, I am referring to assault weapons as defined by the law enacted in 1994 that expired in 2004.


Those that manufacture, import, and sell guns in business already must be licensed. Sorry if you already knew that.

I know there is a federal law that requires sellers of firearms to be licensed, but the law has so many loopholes that almost renders it useless. I believe we have to close those loopholes to include everyone engaged in the business of dealing in firearms.


Also, I disagree with your proposal of rationing of ammunition.

My proposals wouldn’t mean that your family couldn’t purchase the ammunition you need. It would mean that you may have to demonstrate a justified reason. It may also mean that you could only purchase so much at a time and/or that the seller would be required to report the purchases to the ATF. So, if you have a legitimate need, then it shouldn’t be a problem other than a minor inconvenience.


I find it appalling that some of the people in Black Lives Matter call for death to the police and Hillary supports this group.

Just because Hillary Clinton supports the philosophy that black lives matter, she has also stated that she believes all lives matter. As I said earlier, your posts are well-expressed, but it doesn’t help your case when you distort the views of others. Without being overly critical, your last post does this as well. I won’t address it point-by-point, but just a few examples: Both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are in favor of raising the federal minimum wage. Trump’s idea of cutting income taxes so that individuals will invest in the economy isn’t new. It’s commonly referred to as ‘trickle-down economics’- it’s been tried several times before and the only real result has been an increased national deficit. Hillary Clinton’s tax proposal is to increase taxes on upper income and wealthy individuals, not the struggling middle class. It is admirable that you are so passionate about your opinions, but the most effective and persuasive arguments are usually the ones that accurately and fairly support your position.

[RudieCantFail]

Dreamer, I'm afraid that we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well. I hope the quoted material looks alright, since I tried my best to make sure who said what in previous posts.


Dreamer:
However, I personally do not want to live in a country where it’s up to individuals to protect themselves in a public setting. We are a country of laws, and I prefer to rely on trained law enforcement professionals to preserve law and order and public safety. I certainly don’t want to live in a police state, but neither do I think armed citizens in a potential shoot out is an acceptable solution.
Unfortunately, in San Jose, CA, they've been cutting officers as part of their budget cuts. Estimated by June 2016, the SJPD would have "879 street-ready officers." This is short of the "more than 1,200 were in the field [in 2008] at the start of a series of budget cuts and ensuing pension reforms that led to layoffs, early retirements and resignations from the department." Also, police recruits are looking at other PDs b/c they pay better than SJ, so that's not helping the shortage. (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_25387775/san-jose-police-will-lose-another-100-officers) SJ has a little over 1 mil people. I'm afraid that the PD is getting too spread out. They're behind on their reported calls and they take up to 30 min or more for backup to show up if necessary. Plus, cops are only good after the crime has been committed. They can't show up as fast as we would like, so that's why people feel compelled to defend themselves with a firearm. As I've mentioned before, the cops didn't dare to enter South Central LA in the first few days of the riots, so the Korean store owners defended their property with guns. I don't know why my city screwed up their police and fire budgeting, but we'll eventually pay for the ramifications. Open carry is heavily restricted in CA. Because CA is heavily liberal in the most populated areas, even if open carry wasn't as restricted, I doubt that tons of people would even use it. The culture here is very left wing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoaringRockyMountainWay
Dreamer, assault style weapons are already banned for use by civilians.

Dreamer:
I do not believe that there is any ban of assault style weapons at the federal level. I believe a few states have banned them. To clarify, I am referring to assault weapons as defined by the law enacted in 1994 that expired in 2004.
I think SRMW may be referring to Assault Rifles because those are military grade and can go into automatic and burst fire modes, which makes it NOT semi-automatic. The terminology is confusing b/c people in the news interchange assault rifle and assault weapon.


Originally Posted by SoaringRockyMountainWay
Also, I disagree with your proposal of rationing of ammunition.

Dreamer:
My proposals wouldn’t mean that your family couldn’t purchase the ammunition you need. It would mean that you may have to demonstrate a justified reason. It may also mean that you could only purchase so much at a time and/or that the seller would be required to report the purchases to the ATF. So, if you have a legitimate need, then it shouldn’t be a problem other than a minor inconvenience.

Personally, I don't think the ATF needs to know how much ammunition each person buys at a point in time. People buy ammo in bulk because buying in small quantities can be expensive and it can be cheaper to buy in much larger quantities. I was shocked to see how much they cost for maybe 30-50 rounds in a box. It was like $25. But if you really wanted to restrict large ammo purchases, then I'd prefer to see a tax on large purchases. I know that this doesn't sound that conservative, but I'd rather see a tax instead of more gov't surveillance of people's activities and restriction of ammo purchases.


Originally Posted by SoaringRockyMountainWay
I find it appalling that some of the people in Black Lives Matter call for death to the police and Hillary supports this group.

Dreamer:
Just because Hillary Clinton supports the philosophy that black lives matter, she has also stated that she believes all lives matter. As I said earlier, your posts are well-expressed, but it doesn’t help your case when you distort the views of others. ... Trump’s idea of cutting income taxes so that individuals will invest in the economy isn’t new. It’s commonly referred to as ‘trickle-down economics’- it’s been tried several times before and the only real result has been an increased national deficit.

I think some BLM supporters say, "Of course, all lives matter, but black lives are being ignored." I know that you pointed out that she supports the philosophy of BLM and believes that all lives matter. To me, it doesn't matter if you say "all lives matter" and then support BLM in any degree because their rhetoric has been taken too far. I don't think BLM is a healthy protest group at all, and I think their rhetoric has heavily influenced these recent attacks and deaths of officers. Their intentions are probably not as radical as what's been happening in the last month, but these attacks are hurting their cause. I acknowledge that they have every right to state their cause and protest, but it may eventually reach the tipping point of the imminent lawless action test. I don't remember seeing this much violence inflicted upon the police. All it's going to do is put more people on the side of the officers rather than BLM. I think it's sad that bad things are going on in some of their communities, but they need to be the bigger man in this case.

To address "trickle-down economics," it's true that the deficits did go up, but Reagan wanted the Democrat majority Congress to cut spending on the social programs. If you're going to do a tax cut, you need to cut gov't spending otherwise, yes, there will be increased deficits. Note: during W. Bush, the deficits went up b/c he did tax cuts and was paying to engage in two overseas wars. Reagan wasn't going to allow the military to be cut b/c of the Cold War, but the social programs could go. As far as I know, social programs weren't cut, but the economy did improve. The economy was in the tank under stagflation during the Jimmy Carter years. Keynesian economics was bad b/c it only solves unemployment or inflation, not both. It's hard to get out of stagflation, unless you implement supply-side economics. The latter requires tax cuts, deregulation, and tightening the money supply. It wasn't successful from the get-go, but in a matter of a few years, it got the economy out of the funk. I acknowledge that tax cuts aren't used wisely in the sense that cutting gov't spending hardly ever comes true. It's easy to cut taxes, but it's harder to cut spending. Trump has said that he wants to cut spending, but I'm not going to address that. I don't follow Trump enough to defend him.

As mentioned in a previous post, I acknowledge that Bill was alright with a Republican congress that kept him in check. They cut welfare and put a time limit on it, which I think is good. If Hillary is as moderate as he was, then it won't be as bad. However, I don't know what the heck is going on in Congress, so uh, yes, I did vote that we would be screwed either way.

[buffyfan145]

My my, my concerns with Trump keep being more frequent.

His comments about the second amendment people, regardless of how he meant it (it was in the way he said it) are frightening. I think he's a loose cannon and is a scary, scary person.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-second-amendment/index.html

I totally agree. Again I normally don't talk about politics but what he said yesterday was horrifying. Proves again why he shouldn't be running in the first place.

[AlreadyGone95]

My my, my concerns with Trump keep being more frequent.

His comments about the second amendment people, regardless of how he meant it (it was in the way he said it) are frightening. I think he's a loose cannon and is a scary, scary person.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/09/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-second-amendment/index.html

When I first heard this comment last night, I wasn't sure what Trump meant by it. I'm still not sure what he was trying to say or imply. :headscratch:
I seriously hope that a presidential candidate would never advocate violence against an opponent. If Trump was only referring to his supporters voting in November, he should have said that more outright. The "I don't know" at the end is what leads me to think that he wasn't talking about voting. Given his boisterous personality, that doesn't seem like how he would talk about beating Clinton. People misinterpret other people's words all the time. I'm afraid that one of his supporters might misconstrue that comment and decide to talk matters into their own hands.


On the gun control matter, I only want a few things to be done.

1. Required gun safety classes for kids in school.
By starting with basic safety rules when they're young, this would cut down on the accidental gun deaths.

2. Require some training with the gun a person wants to purchase if he/she hasn't bought a similar gun in the past.
Every gun handles differently. For example, the recoil from each type and style of gun varies. The heavier the caliber of bullet, the bigger the recoil. I would like for a person who's new to purchasing a type of gun ( or at least a gun in general) to have to do some shooting with it, so that they can be sure that they want it and can safely use it.

3. More intensive background checks.
I shouldn't have to explain this point.

I'm pretty much in favor of guns because of farming and hunting. Like SRMW has said, guns are needed to kill pests around farms. Plus, they help to put fresh meat on the table in fall and winter.
I know that it's impossible to cut down on illegal guns, but with those 3 things(or at least the first 2 things), I think it could be possible to cut down on accidental gun deaths, which are somewhat common occurrences here.

[GlennLover]

Another instance of a gun owner reportedly taking the law into his own hands with a fatal result: http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/09/us/raleigh-north-carolina-man-shoots-african-american-outside-home-911-calls/

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

RudieCantFail and AG95, I agree with you both.

WalshFan88, Trump never said anything that stirs up violence. I think people are blowing his words out of proportion just so they can nitpick him. When I heard what he said, my first thought was that he was talking about the NRA because they do a lot to protect the 2nd Amendment. I don't understand how Trump is more scary than Hillary. Hillary wants to have open borders, raise taxes, restrict 2nd Amendment rights, put coal miners out of business, and keep Obamacare. Not to mention she got people killed, put national security at risk, and lies to the American people repeatedly. In no way will America be safe or prosperous with her as president.

Dreamer, Hillary does want to raise taxes on the middle class. I watched one of her speeches on live TV and she said, "I am going to raise taxes on the middle class!" I heard her say that with my own ears. Also, I am not trying to distort people's views. I am telling the truth in what I see happening around me. I see that Hillary Clinton supports a group that has had some of its members promote violence and death to the police. That is not okay in my book.

[WalshFan88]

People can support Trump, but I just don't get it. Obviously you feel the same about Hillary but I personally think they nitpick her too much. So there's that.

Me, myself, I'm a liberal who probably is a bit on the agnostic side of things. I do pray or ask for help or send well wishes and prayers, but I don't personally believe in any one religion specifically due to reasons I wont elaborate on.

For me, I personally believe that Hillary having a "kill list", or that they (her and Bill) are any more corrupt than any other Washington politician is hogwash. Yes she messed up by going with a private self-hosted email server. I think I put most of that down to just a bad mistake that I don't think she herself would do again regardless of the outrage. The Benghazi thing was a horrible tragic event but I can't put all of that on her back or that she somehow doesn't care about America. She's been investigated, and no I don't think she was cleared because of money or "threats" or intimidation. The Hillary campaign has already said the Orlando terrorist's father was NOT invited, and I think it was a slip up on the part of her security team that vets everyone.

Obviously some will disagree, much like I disagree that having Trump as a president is in any way a "smart idea". Now Trump says Obama and Clinton "founded ISIS". I don't care what he meant, again, much like the 2nd amendment comment or any of his other off-the-wall comments, it's the fact he said them the way he did or better yet, just keep them to hisself. People make too many excuses for his spewing vile comments and I don't care for it. I feel Obama has done a good job overall, and while there are a few things that need fixing, I feel a Trump presidency would be a step backward for the USA, and I feel he would encourage violence and/or discrimination with some of his following that are just that way. And even if he personally didn't incite it, I feel they would feel less repercussions with him in office or that they just feel like they can because he's in the White House. Certainly not all of his supporters, but they exist (a few). I don't support that almost cult mentality with the chants and the crazy behavior at times and a lot of their beliefs. Just like the young kid who yelled "lock the b!#ch up". It's saddening.

We now have more and more of the GOP not supporting Trump and urging others to do the same to keep control of the house and senate. They realize Trump is a loose cannon and is losing support from more and more.

I'm watching the news now and there is a guy at a Florida Trump rally with a CONFEDERATE flag. Disgusting. I believe that black lives definitely matter, and all lives definitely matter. I have a problem with the police brutality towards black people. I also have a problem with cops being killed. Look, I like southern rock music and I have friends from the south but to me, that flag is so inflammatory that even Lynyrd Skynyrd themselves have replaced it in their shows with the American flag. I don't like bigots, and those who don't support gays or people of different races or in any way discriminate. Discrimination is discrimination no matter the reason. Just like that clerk who wouldn't help the gay couple with the marriage license. She had a public office job and she needed to leave her bigoted opinions to be said when she wasn't on the clock. I realize that is a "sticky" topic and so I'll leave it at that.

[UndertheWire]

I find some of the posts here a bit scary because they appear to show a different and far more dangerous world than I'm used to. Then I read a post like Austin's and I'm reminded that there are americans who are thoughtful and moderate in their views. Thanks, Austin.

[WalshFan88]

I find some of the posts here a bit scary because they appear to show a different and far more dangerous world than I'm used to. Then I read a post like Austin's and I'm reminded that there are americans who are thoughtful and moderate in their views. Thanks, Austin.

Thanks, UtW.

I'm not about to say they are the best views, but they are mine nonetheless.

At the end of the day, if we all just love a bit more, hate a bit less, and encourage one another rather than bringing everybody down or judging one another, it'd be a better place, and not just America but for the world. I personally feel Donald Trump's campaign is in another space and one I cannot support with good faith.

[MaryCalifornia]

MaryCalifornia, I'm a female who will be a senior in high school in the fall so I haven't gone to college yet but I've had a 4.0 GPA for the past 3 years, got a 97% in government class, and a 96% in economics and I support Donald Trump. If you didn't see his recent speech about the economy, I encourage you to look it up. Everything he proposed makes sense. He wants to cut business taxes so that businesses will come back to America and therefore create new jobs. He also wants to cut income taxes so that individuals will invest in the economy. Then he wants to renegotiate trade deals so that we don't have trade deficits. With the money saved from not having trade deficits, he will build up the military and the American infrastructure. Hillary wants to raise taxes on the dwindling middle class. This is a disincentive to be successful so people will not want to work hard and do well for themselves when they're going to be penalized for it. Instead, there is an incentive to do nothing and live off the government. With the middle class disappearing, there will be no one left to support those living on welfare and the whole system will implode. Hillary wants to raise minimum wage. She has flipped back and forth on this issue but last I heard she still wants to raise it. If she does this, businesses will no longer be able to support the same amount of employees so they will have to lay off workers. This will make the unemployment rate go up. She also wants to keep Obamacare. Obamacare has caused businesses to lay off employees because they can't support them and it has starved out the middle class. Here's a real life story about Obamacare. My grandma and grandpa's insurance went up 60% for each person because of Obamacare. My grandpa can't even get a new truck even though his current one is literally falling apart because they can't afford it. My grandpa hardly ever gets excited about anything but he is excited about and believes in Donald Trump. He knows that Trump wants to repeal Obamacare and help the middle class that is struggling. Although he is eligible, my grandpa has never voted because he has never believed in a candidate enough to take the time to vote. Because of Trump, my grandpa registered to vote.

Just remember, by not voting you are giving the presidency to Hillary Clinton.

Of course there is the occasional young female who supports Trump. The reason I called out the demographic I did is based on local and national polls that show where the bulk of his support comes from. I'm sure there are some African-Americans and gays who support him too.

SRMW, all I can say to you as you approach voting age (if you're not 18 already) is that I'm very sorry that Trump is the candidate that you are presented with. With a normal Republican candidate, you and I could very easily have been supporting the same person. This is a horrible position for you to be put in.

You are an angel and I'm so glad you're on the board! xoxo MC

[SoaringRockyMountainWay]

WalshFan88, watch this speech and then let me know if you think Hillary is a good move for America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOlgAK5iAtI
With the whole private server thing, I don't believe that she would not do something like that again because she still won't admit that she screwed up. She keeps lying to the people about it and contradicts what the FBI Director said. I just can't give her the benefit of the doubt anymore. Can you explain why the confederate flag is disgusting to you? Since I live out in the country I see a lot of them flying and I guess I never thought anything of it. Also, I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but that doesn't mean I discriminate against or hate gay people. I just wish that society wouldn't shove that lifestyle in my face instead of letting the gays live their way and letting me live my way. I will be showing my horse at my county fair all day every day next week so I don't know if I'll be able to get on here but I will try to see your response.

MaryCalifornia, thank you! I appreciate your support.

[WalshFan88]

WalshFan88, watch this speech and then let me know if you think Hillary is a good move for America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOlgAK5iAtI
With the whole private server thing, I don't believe that she would not do something like that again because she still won't admit that she screwed up. She keeps lying to the people about it and contradicts what the FBI Director said. I just can't give her the benefit of the doubt anymore. Can you explain why the confederate flag is disgusting to you? Since I live out in the country I see a lot of them flying and I guess I never thought anything of it. Also, I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but that doesn't mean I discriminate against or hate gay people. I just wish that society wouldn't shove that lifestyle in my face instead of letting the gays live their way and letting me live my way. I will be showing my horse at my county fair all day every day next week so I don't know if I'll be able to get on here but I will try to see your response.

MaryCalifornia, thank you! I appreciate your support.

I haven't had time to watch the speech (that'll be a separate post) but the confederate flag promotes a certain redneck southern viewpoint and most of those that fly them and post pictures of them are racist. There is still a racist bunch of people who support that flag and wave it. And it makes me mad. I believe black lives matter, and I believe it's very inflammatory in the modern era.

ETA: I need to clarify. I know the South has come a long way from it's roots. And it's not so much the flag itself (but I still don't like it), it's really the mentality the people who push it so much carry. Not all southerns, country people, or "rednecks" are racist. Not by a long shot. But most of those people KNOW that the flag is a problem and the people who post pics with it or have it on their trucks or homes, I feel are still stuck in a time that was absolutely horrible. I don't like bigots, flag or not. But the flag to me, indicates one supports how the South used to be and they are racist or at least are ok with how upsetting it is.

[RudieCantFail]

In response to the last two previous posts made by SRMW and WF88 respectively, I don't like the Confederate flag either. I think those who do wave the Confederate flag that aren't from the Confederate states do it in bad taste. In my opinion, they don't have a great reason to wave it, other than the 1st amendment right that they have to do so. Some may say that it's not a racist flag, but it's a historical one that shows southern pride. I'm an Asian-American, and I know that the flag isn't directed at me. However, it makes me uncomfortable as a minority.

I don't have as much of a problem with those touting the flag and they're actually from the Confederate states that fought in the Civil War. Am I comfortable with someone who falls under that category? Still, no, because this summer, I saw someone in a hot tub in Hawaii with a small Confederate flag tattoo on his arm with a bald eagle. It made me uncomfortable and unsure of whether or not I should go into the hot tub. Fortunately, there were two tubs, and I chose to go in the one where that person wasn't in it because I was afraid of harassment of any sort. I didn't think the person would do anything in the first place, but I didn't want to put myself in a situation where it could.

I'm not trying to bash anyone on here that's from the south, and I know that those who do wave the flag aren't representative of all southerners. I know that it also doesn't mean that a person who waves it is a bad person. It's just that if I see it on anyone, I will feel uncomfortable.

[WalshFan88]

In response to the last two previous posts made by SRMW and WF88 respectively, I don't like the Confederate flag either. I think those who do wave the Confederate flag that aren't from the Confederate states do it in bad taste. In my opinion, they don't have a great reason to wave it, other than the 1st amendment right that they have to do so. Some may say that it's not a racist flag, but it's a historical one that shows southern pride. I'm an Asian-American, and I know that the flag isn't directed at me. However, it makes me uncomfortable as a minority.

I don't have as much of a problem with those touting the flag and they're actually from the Confederate states that fought in the Civil War. Am I comfortable with someone who falls under that category? Still, no, because this summer, I saw someone in a hot tub in Hawaii with a small Confederate flag tattoo on his arm with a bald eagle. It made me uncomfortable and unsure of whether or not I should go into the hot tub. Fortunately, there were two tubs, and I chose to go in the one where that person wasn't in it because I was afraid of harassment of any sort. I didn't think the person would do anything in the first place, but I didn't want to put myself in a situation where it could.

I'm not trying to bash anyone on here that's from the south, and I know that those who do wave the flag aren't representative of all southerners. I know that it also doesn't mean that a person who waves it is a bad person. It's just that if I see it on anyone, I will feel uncomfortable.

Exactly RCF...I cringe every time I see it, and I'm a caucasian. I feel for those who it makes feel even worse.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I agree with you both RCF and WF88 and the Confederate flag makes me uncomfortable no matter what state I'm in. I’d also like to address some other comments that have been raised in this discussion:

First of all to RCF – I agree in theory with your comments about "trickle-down economics, "If you're going to do a tax cut, you need to cut gov't spending otherwise, yes, there will be increased deficits”. But, as I see it, therein is the problem – it’s a great concept, but it never turns out to be very practical. It’s like if I decide I’m going to switch from full-time work to part-time. – I know I won’t have as much money so I won’t be able to spend as much. But, it’s very hard to reduce spending in real life when I discover termite damage in my home, or if I unexpectedly get sick and incur lots of medical expenses, or my old car needs repairs, or I have to pay for my own benefits once I terminate my full-time employment, etc., etc., etc. I either have to get that money from my savings or borrow it. The government works pretty much the same way, which is why tax cuts traditionally result in higher deficits. Even when spending is cut, we don’t really save because the reality is that we end up with situations such as the one you described with the San Jose police department.

Secondly to SRMW – It is simply not true that Hillary Clinton stated she was going to raise taxes on the middle class. Here is a video of the remark she made:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/05/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrongly-says-hillary-clinton-wants-ra/

The claim is that she stated “…we are going to raise taxes on the middle class” when in fact she said “we aren’t going to raise taxes on the middle class”.

If you listen to her remarks in context, the first statement does not make any sense. So even if you want to believe that’s what she said, then she obviously misspoke. I agree she didn’t enunciate very clearly, but I don’t think this is the issue. The important part is what she intended. She released the written transcript of her remarks to the press and it included the word ‘aren’t. Since then, she has repeatedly reputed any notion that she would raise taxes on the middle class. You are free to believe what you want, but there is zero evidence that Hillary Clinton has ever been in favor of a middle class tax hike.

With regard to claim that Donald Trump never said anything that stirs up violence – here’s one of many examples … the incident when he said he may help pay legal bills for a supporter who punched a protestor:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/trump-will-look-in-to-paying-legal-bills-for-man-who-sucker-punched-protester-220685

And lastly, my reaction to RNC speech about Benghazi that you posted is that it is a very moving, powerful account. However, it is also obviously partisan. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that, however, I choose to believe the results of the 10 congressional committee investigations that found no proof of wrongdoing on the part of Hillary Clinton.

[WalshFan88]

SRMW-

I just watched the speech in full. I have to agree with Dreamer here. It IS very moving, but also very biased and obviously so, it's at the RNC with support for Donald Trump.

I trust the government's investigators and committees than have done a LOT of investigating and cleared her in every case. I feel that the whole thought she is "evil" or doesn't care about Americans is false. I feel she didn't do anything on purpose, and I'm not even convinced it was all her fault. People that call her Killary and everything else are way over the top and nowhere near reality.

Hillary Clinton has more experience, self-control, and even class than the Donald could ever hope to have. Now he's saying the media is against him and that if he doesn't win PA, then it's rigged and watch for the same person voting 5 times. Really Trump? Is he that stupid? Obviously that won't happen. It is crazy talk.

[EagleLady]

The flag is not racist at all, it is representing Southern Pride and what's wrong with that?

[travlnman2]

I agree the Flag is not Racist Lynyrd Skynyrd can tell you that.

Anyone here about the latest Email hack lol
I live in a very Liberal state. Connecticut travling through Hartford,Bridgeport,New Haven are perfect examples of how the Democrats have failed us. I would rather have some guy who can't stop talking(who judging by his behavoir has the same issues as me.) Over a lying, corrupt lady. The Taxes in my state are among the highest in the state and we lose jobs every year from buisssness leaving. Also I hate how the mainstreem media and Public Schools treat Republicans. I wore a ,Trump/Pence shirt to School before it ended and my god I thought I was going to get beat up. I was called down by a teacher and ask to remove it and I said. Hell no I am not going to remove it! You teach repsecting peoples belifes and hate speach etc. I am not going to remove something that I belive in 100% and know much more about then you do. I also take offfense calling someone Racist and Ignorant because I support LEGAL IMMIGRATION as my father did all the steps from a poor Italian kid leaving his home at 11 to the sucessful Insurance aget he is today.


Haven't had a problem since Got a 3 day detention though for some language I used but the Principal applauded me for telling my views.

Most of my friends are GOP(includeing two black guys) except for a few who are moderate democrats. My sister was turned into a hardcore Democract by Her college. I tole her don't believe everything ur Professors tell you.

As you can see by this disscussion I have no problem with diffrent oppinons as long as there is a good debate. Which unlike 99.99% of them on the internet decend into anarchy,chaos and insults

[travlnman2]

By the way quick history lessson. The Flag and Confederacy were originally founded by Democrats and the Republicans were Anti-Slavery. But it somehow changed in the 60s. George Wallace was also a Democrat.

My problem with calling someone a bigot is because the deffintion of Bigot is

big·ot
ˈbiɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.


So by calling someone a Bigot you are being a Bigot. Classic irony.

[WalshFan88]

As I've said, a lot of the South WAS racist, and from what I've seen the ones that post the flag or wave it all the time are very likely to be racist. I never said the Republicans had anything to do or not with the flag, that was separate.

You can call it whatever you want but racism is wrong and discrimination against homosexuals is wrong.

Again, I'm not saying it's all of the south but Skynyrd DID stop using it BECAUSE it was inflammatory. They may not think so themselves, but they know other people do. They themselves KNOW that. But it's the skinheads and groups like the KKK and the ones who are still in that mindset that have made it something else.

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/21/lynyrd_skynyrd_decides_its_finally_time_to_stop_us ing_the_confederate_flag/

Again, it's not so much the flag as it is the mentality of those who wave it so proudly tend to be bigoted and racist and proud of it and when I see that flag, it pisses me off. No one can deny the South WAS racist and there are some "rednecks" that still are very much so and are not very forward and modern thinking. I support a more modern viewpoint in that equality is number one today. You have to move with the times and it's inappropriate IMO to be against that in 2016. I like to think that most country folk/rednecks and southerners are against racism and use it for southern pride. But the "bad" ones have ruined it and most people view it in a bad light.

[AlreadyGone95]

Ah, the flag. I've grown up surrounded by it. My dad supported it, and he was one of the kindest people I knew. My paternal 5th great uncle fought for the Confederacy, so that's why my dad supported it, family heritage. Both sides of my familiy can be traced back to the south during the Civil War.

I support it to a certain degree. I see it as being proud to be southern. I do understand people, especially blacks, being offended by it. I do know and have personally seen racists use the flag as a symbol of hatred. Racist rednecks are very common here, and I even have some in my own family. It's my right or anyone else's right to do what they please with the Confederate flag, whether that be fly it, burn it, wear it, or stomp all over it.

I'm very pro- LGBT. There is no "gay lifestyle". The only difference between gay and straight people is who they sleep with. I don't want to see too much in a public forum, but I fall under one of the letters of LGBT. I'm also agnostic, which has caused me some trouble living in a predominantly Christian area. I don't know if there is a god or not, and I really don't care. I grew up going to church, but I started questioning Christianity as a teen, and I eventually left the church. I just know that I don't want religion and government to mix together. A person's religion doesn't matter to me, but it should cease to exist beyond their homes and places of worship, IMO.

[RudieCantFail]

Oh great, now we are on the social and moral issues. I'm not a very religious person (Buddhist, here), but I can appreciate what Christians have done in the history of the world. The people that founded the United States were either Deists or some sort of Christian. You can correct me if some were in fact proven agnostics or irreligious people. I'm not trying to put Christianity on a pedestal, but I'm just saying that it's a decent religion with some imperfections. It's been pretty good for democracy. I know that the U.S. is not a Christian nation, but the people that founded as I stated before had believed in some degree of it. The U.S. gov't cannot and should not impose or promote a religion. I think Israel is a democratic country, but unfortunately, Islamic countries don't practice democracy that well. They missed out on the western ideas of the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment. I don't know a lot about Islam, but there needs to be some sort of Reformation and/or Enlightenment.

As a minority, when I see the Confederate flag, the first thing that comes into my mind isn't that it's a sign for southern pride. If you fly it in California, it will probably be seen as disrespectful, unless you're actually from the South. Even then, how are passersby going to know that you're just full of southern pride? They'll probably think you're a racist redneck or a white supremacist, due to the diversity in my state, esp. in the Bay Area. Once again, I'm not accusing anybody of being a racist, a redneck, a white supremacist, and/or a combination of the aforementioned. It's just that feeling that comes into my head if I see the flag. Here's an article of what the Confederate flag means outside of the US: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-the-confederate-flag-flown-outside-the-us-2015-6 Some countries have thought of it as a flag of rebellion, but the Neo-Nazi Germans have used it instead of the swastika. The swastika is prohibited in Germany, so they use the Dixie for their purposes.

[EagleLady]

Oh great, now we are on the social and moral issues. I'm not a very religious person (Buddhist, here), but I can appreciate what Christians have done in the history of the world. The people that founded the United States were either Deists or some sort of Christian. You can correct me if some were in fact proven agnostics or irreligious people. I'm not trying to put Christianity on a pedestal, but I'm just saying that it's a decent religion with some imperfections. It's been pretty good for democracy. I know that the U.S. is not a Christian nation, but the people that founded as I stated before had believed in some degree of it. The U.S. gov't cannot and should not impose or promote a religion. I think Israel is a democratic country, but unfortunately, Islamic countries don't practice democracy that well. They missed out on the western ideas of the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Enlightenment. I don't know a lot about Islam, but there needs to be some sort of Reformation and/or Enlightenment.

As a minority, when I see the Confederate flag, the first thing that comes into my mind isn't that it's a sign for southern pride. If you fly it in California, it will probably be seen as disrespectful, unless you're actually from the South. Even then, how are passersby going to know that you're just full of southern pride? They'll probably think you're a racist redneck or a white supremacist, due to the diversity in my state, esp. in the Bay Area. Once again, I'm not accusing anybody of being a racist, a redneck, a white supremacist, and/or a combination of the aforementioned. It's just that feeling that comes into my head if I see the flag. Here's an article of what the Confederate flag means outside of the US: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-the-confederate-flag-flown-outside-the-us-2015-6 Some countries have thought of it as a flag of rebellion, but the Neo-Nazi Germans have used it instead of the swastika. The swastika is prohibited in Germany, so they use the Dixie for their purposes.

Again its a sign of southern pride, not racism. Please get your facts straight

[Ive always been a dreamer]

What’s wrong with the Confederate flag? Okay – the short answer is it’s the flag of the Confederacy that was formed for the purpose of protecting the institution of slavery.

Quite honestly, I’m not sure what southern pride even is and I’m from Virginia. Personally, I would never be proud to display or support anything that is symbolic of slavery. I also have ancestors that fought in the Civil War and I’m sure they deeply believed in the cause they were fighting for. I don’t think they were bad people, but I do think they were wrong. Surely, over 150 years after the end of the Civil War, most people agree that enslavement of human beings was a dark stain on American history rather than something we should be proud of.

[WS82Classics]

I will say regarding the Confederate flag that i used to ill-informedly hang flag dice from my rear-view mirror. Southern pride and all. I went to a car dealership to have my front bumper replaced a couple of years back(after dropping a wheel off the road and spinning into a guard-rail), and, while they were repairing my car, one of the workers tore the dice down, decimating the connecting string. I consider myself fortunate that's all I got as a response to that, and I regret having ever purchased the dice in the first place.

My ancestors fled across state lines to fight for the Union in the war. It is interesting to see how the Civil War is being re-litigated by certain elements of society. One side says the Confederacy fought over slavery and the other says they fought for 'States Rights'. Both of them are right—The fight was waged over the right of the states to have slaves. One can argue over the soundness of some of the policies undertaken on the way to the Union victory and the dissolution of slavery(jailing newspaper publishers who supported the Confederacy, for example), but no sane person can argue that the ultimate ending of slavery was a bad thing, which is what Trump's core base of supporters(the ones who LOVE him as opposed to ones who support him by default) seems to be promulgating.

Regarding Trump's voter fraud comments, he's probably teeing off of the fact that voter turnout in some Cleveland and Philadelphia-area precincts had something like 108% turnout in 2012, which can be easily chalked up to the fact that such percentages are used to describe turnout increases from previous elections(if turnout jumps high enough, you could ultimately see 1,000% or higher increases). It's a misconstrual on the part of people paranoidly propagating this, though Trump himself probably couldn't tell the difference between voter statistics and the IHOP menu.

All I will say about the religious angle that was hinted at earlier is that Christians like myself have just as much right to discuss their views in public as do agnostics/atheists. Contrary to Mr. Trump's bleating, all religions(or lack thereof) are equal under the law and no one should be subjected to preferential treatment or discrimination.

The gun issue is a subject that needs to be wholly debated. “Don't politicize” is not an acceptable response at this point, which I say as a Conservative supporter of basic gun rights. Military weaponry and armory need to at the very least be re-classified for strictly military and law enforcement usage. I wrote more about this on my own personal site a couple of months back in the wake of the two shootings in Orlando, laced with a lot of my own very, very personal thoughts: http://ridersonthestorm101.blogspot.com/2016/06/to-politicize-or-not-to-politicize.html

There's no possible way I could condense all I feel about this election. The best and the brightest have been passed over in favour of the Dirty Don(Clinton was the only good option Democrats had, which is itself depressing). I can only hope that this is a bottoming-out point and that we can bounce back as a country. Unlike most, I do hold out hope on that end.

The comments on here have been very informative, and I thank you all for your insights.

[WalshFan88]

All I will say about the religious angle that was hinted at earlier is that Christians like myself have just as much right to discuss their views in public as do agnostics/atheists.

But of course....

[WalshFan88]

More weeks have passed by and I still hold the same feelings towards the candidates. Now we have the whole health debate about both parties.

The Trump campaign started out saying they wished HRC well and all of that jazz, and then Trump said she couldn't have the stamina to stand in the heat anymore and couldn't do it. He simply cannot keep true to what he says.

I think HRC did have pneumonia and it is easy to overheat, doubly so when sick. The talk of her having some kind of neurological condition that would impair her as POTUS is a bit OTT. I think she will recover fully and she's already back out on the trail.

I really wish Trump would listen to his handlers more and learn to restrain his thoughts as I think that would help his case. I think the statement wishing HRC well was likely from his team, and he just chose to make himself very inconsiderate and totally put out more bad vibes with his comments.

[Annoying Twit]

Can someone in the US reassure me that the US presidential race isn't as much of a farce as it appears to be? It's like the "Leave" referendum in the UK all over again.

I've read an article which is concerned about conservatives making political gains in Iran. It said, wait for it, that some of the statements by Iranian conservative figures are so extreme that they sound similar to pronouncements by Donald Trump. This was said seriously, and with concern.

[NightMistBlue]

It's very much like the "Leave" referendum, but with far less dignity. You do know that Trump had Nigel Farage speaking at a rally not long ago?

[Annoying Twit]

It's very much like the "Leave" referendum, but with far less dignity. You do know that Trump had Nigel Farage speaking at a rally not long ago?

Yes, I do know. I think you'd prefer me not to say what I thought when I saw that.

EDIT: Wait a second, even less dignity? How is that possible?

[NightMistBlue]

I can't imagine any British politician going about in a baseball cap and insinuating that a feisty female journalist must be having her period.

[Annoying Twit]

I can't imagine any British politician going about in a baseball cap and insinuating that a feisty female journalist must be having her period.

Nigel Farage!!!!

[WS82Classics]

At the risk of torpedoing this thread once again, I will chime in and personally attest, as an American, that this election is in fact a total farce, one which makes the nastiness of 2012 look like the Cub Scouts by comparison.

As one who voted Marco Rubio in the Primaries and would have probably come to make peace with any of the other Republicans against the awful Hillary Clinton(even Jeb Bush, who was my very last choice for a while), I stare with incredulity at what I'm seeing on a day-to-day basis. Clinton is evasive, probably corrupt, and Trump is a downright frightening choice. There is no good choice, and Clinton's awfulness and flat out dishonesty rates as a lesser evil between her and Trump(I also can't stand Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate). Not someplace I ever thought we would be a year ago, though I did always think Trump would have staying power.

At least the 'Leave' people, like proper Englishmen, knew how to properly dress and how to frame their arguments in something resembling an intelligent way. The average Trump supporter...does neither of those things.

I'm leaning towards a write in vote for either Erin Burnett or Curtis Sliwa, though I could easily see voting Clinton/Kaine if I felt it was absolutely necessary(I live in a swing state, which increases the stakes considerably). The latter will make me a lot of enemies in the part of Georgia where I live, but I'm almost to the point of not caring at all. After all, while my distaste for Clinton is purely ideological, my distaste with Trump is moral. The former can be remedied by Republican retention of Congress. Aside from intervention of the Divine, I'm not sure how the latter can be helped.

BTW, a good piece on the latest Trump flap, the one regarding Skittles and Syrian refugees--Sinister is the word: https://theintercept.com/2016/09/20/nazi-who-originated-donald-trump-jr-s-skittles-metaphor-was-hanged-at-nuremberg/

[UndertheWire]

Nigel Farage!!!!
Like this?


When a member of the audience asked the Ukip leader to explain his recent comments claiming staying in the EU may lead to more women being raped in Cologne style attacks.
Farage told her to ‘just calm down’.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/07/eu-debate-woman-asks-farage-about-linking-rape-to-immigration-he-tells-her-to-calm-down-5930274/#ixzz4KpQoCGIj

[NightMistBlue]

Still, though: compared to a certain braying jack-a$s who is currently running for president of the U.S., look how measured Mr. Farage's tone remains. The clip is brief, but he has a professional bearing.

WS82, I was thinking of writing in Lynda Carter's name; she played Wonder Woman on tv back in the 70s. She's going to be playing the president on the upcoming season of Super Girl, so I figure why not?

[WS82Classics]

Wow, NMB! Thank you so much for bringing her to my attention. I hadn't thought of her in years. First time I saw her was in an episode of "Starsky and Hutch." I was 17 at the time, and she just blew my mind. Loved looking through Google Images' photo selection. Really made my day! :inlove:


She's a good choice, but as far as female Presidents from TV go, I'd probably much sooner write in Julia Louis Dreyfuss from "Veep." I have strict criteria for my write in votes, and one of them is someone I can actually see serving in office in a competent way(I also don't vote for dead people). I would probably have to see Lynda Carter in her new role to make a determination on that end. I have given thought to voting for The Fonz or Spongebob Squarepants, but my desire to be serious about these things over-rides my urge to write in a name at random, hence my name-dropping of Burnett and Sliwa. I try to not be the same person I was two years ago, when I cast some write in votes for Bugs Bunny and Steely Dan for statewide office.

This will be the first time in the three election cycles in which I've voted that I'll not take advantage of early voting. Usually I'll do the early thing in case I'm dead by Election Day, but this year I want to take extra time just to make sure I get my vote exactly right. I don't understand these states that have 1-2 months of early voting. One of the reasons Donnie Dangerously did as well as he did in the early Primaries was because of people doing early voting prior to their seeing his atrocious debate performances and changing their minds.

[AlreadyGone95]

I honestly can't believe that Georgia is a swing state. It's normally dark red. My American Government professor is pretty certain that it'll be red in the end.

I'm honestly interested in the first debate Monday Night. My college is showing it live to students and the public, and my government professor is offering extra credit to those of us who attend, so I'll definitely be watching it.

[NightMistBlue]

Wow, NMB! Thank you so much for bringing her to my attention. I hadn't thought of her in years.

Ms. Carter has a Facebook page; she seems like a lovely lady. When she announced she'd be playing the president on tv, lots of people expressed that she was a far more appealing choice than the current candidates.

I think her husband was in political office. Maybe she will run some day.

[travlnman2]

Here is what I think.

Hillary-Liar-Corrupt-Caused The death of Fournamericans.- Hypocrite-Nasty-Deplorable-Divider-Third Term Of Obama-Unhealthy-Two Faces-Criminal

Trump-Says mean things.



Voting for Trump(if my 18th birthday wasn't a week after the election.)

Hillary is a criminal she should be in jail plain and simple.

[travlnman2]

Hillary is far more dangerous then Trump and the facts prove it.

[Annoying Twit]

Can anyone put these rulers and candidates into an order from worst leader or potential leader to best?

Hillary Clinton
Donald Trump
Barak Obama
Ronald Regan
Theresa May
Tony Blair
David Cameron
Hassan Rouhani
King George III
Genghis Khan
Kim Jong-Un
Mikhail Gorbachev
Vladimir Putin

[WS82Classics]

Can anyone put these rulers and candidates into an order from worst leader or potential leader to best?

Hillary Clinton
Donald Trump
Barak Obama
Ronald Regan
Theresa May
Tony Blair
David Cameron
Hassan Rouhani
King George III
Genghis Khan
Kim Jong-Un
Mikhail Gorbachev
Vladimir Putin

Worst to best: Trump, Putin, Kim Jong-Un, Obama, Rouhani, Clinton, Reagan, King George III, Cameron, Blair, May, Gorbachev, and Khan.


Here is what I think.

Hillary-Liar-Corrupt-Caused The death of Fournamericans.- Hypocrite-Nasty-Deplorable-Divider-Third Term Of Obama-Unhealthy-Two Faces-Criminal

Trump-Says mean things.

As to Benghazi, there's some chance it might have still happened if she hadn't been SoS or if McCain had been President in place of Obama. It seems there was more to it than just the after-effects of the President's Libya policy, though it certainly did play its role. We'll never truly know.

As to Trump, I might vote for him if it were just the Junior High insults he's levelled. However, he is entirely too cozy with Vladimir Putin's Communist regime and also openly fantasizes about doing...certain unsavory things with his eldest daughter.

There's also all this horridness: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/30/the-billionaire-pedophile-who-could-bring-down-donald-trump-and-hillary-clinton.html
http://www.inquisitr.com/3367307/why-the-new-child-rape-case-against-gop-nominee-donald-trump-should-cost-him-the-2016-election/
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/a-third-woman-alleges-she-was-sexually-assaulted-by-donald-trump/

And that's just scratching the surface with Trump. I would pity our country if he won.

[thelastresort]

Worst to best: Trump, Putin, Kim Jong-Un, Obama, Rouhani, Clinton, Reagan, King George III, Cameron, Blair, May, Gorbachev, and Khan.

Blair and Cameron make the top three? One should be in jail (or hanged, I don't mind either) for war crimes and the other will forever go down in history as the bloke who made a right mess of it (and that's from a Leave voter!). Whilst half of those on the list aren't desirable and the other half are a lot worse, I genuinely can't see why Reagan or even Obama (as much as it pains me to type that) are worse than either of the British two.

[travlnman2]

Regan was a great president.

[travlnman2]

Can anyone put these rulers and candidates into an order from worst leader or potential leader to best?

Hillary Clinton
Donald Trump
Barak Obama
Ronald Regan
Theresa May
Tony Blair
David Cameron
Hassan Rouhani
King George III
Genghis Khan
Kim Jong-Un
Mikhail Gorbachev
Vladimir Putin

Worst To best
Kim Jong Un
King George 3
Gengahs Kahn
Hillary Clinton
Hassan Rouhani
Gorbachev
Putin
Barack Obama
Trump
David Cameron
Tony Blair
Theresa May
Ronald Regan

[GlennLover]

Regan was a great president.

Glenn certainly didn't think so.

[travlnman2]

Glenn certainly didn't think so.

Not to mention every celebrity in Hollywood.

If they were asked to forgo all their money and lavish lifestyle they would not do it,

[RudieCantFail]

Can anyone put these rulers and candidates into an order from worst leader or potential leader to best?

Hillary Clinton
Donald Trump
Barak Obama
Ronald Regan
Theresa May
Tony Blair
David Cameron
Hassan Rouhani
King George III
Genghis Khan
Kim Jong-Un
Mikhail Gorbachev
Vladimir Putin

Sorry that I didn't exactly rank these people. I honestly can't.

I didn't know who Rouhani was until I Googled him, but I would put him above Obama for tricking him into doing that Iran nuclear deal, which I thought was rubbish. I don't know a whole lot on that deal, but if the basic premise was to allow Iran to have nuclear production of some sort, then that's foolish. They've got oil, so they don't need nuclear energy. I don't trust them in not making nuclear weapons. You can correct me on this topic, though. I don't mind, but I'd like to hear from both the conservatives and liberals on this board. British and other foreign opinions are welcome too, since I think the aforementioned terms may have slightly different definitions.

I'd say that the worst is definitely Kim Jong-Un for just how ridiculous North Korea is. From the nuclear program to how backwards and not up-to-date things are over there, he's the worst.

I can't comment on British PMs, since I don't know enough of what's going on over there. All I have to say is, good luck on leaving. Hope things turn out. Hope it's not too unstable. After a while, things should be alright. I mean, hopefully Britain can come up w/ some labor and other trade agreements to try to salvage what the EU had in terms of free trade.

King George III was just terrible at handling the American colonies. He got too greedy with the taxes and just treating the colonists as equal Englishmen. I don't know how he handled things in England though.

Gorbachev was alright and he was at least a reasonable Soviet. I don't know what Putin's been doing other than trying to recreate the USSR.

I could care less about Trump and Hillary. I don't like either of them, and I'm only possibly voting for the former just for the Supreme Court seats. If Scalia hadn't died, then I wouldn't care about who fills it. Like if a liberal judge had passed, I wouldn't care if the Dems picked what they want.

In the future, I think Obama will go down in history as ineffective as Jimmy Carter. Poor foreign policy decisions and left a country more divided than ever. He's the great divider, not uniter. I don't remember having as many shootings and racial tensions during the W. Bush era, even during Katrina. At least Bush was more gracious when he handled tragedy. 9 times out of 10, Obama just politicizes whatever he touches to further his own agenda. His remarks at the Dallas police funeral were in bad taste, IMO. I mean, he doesn't need to say anything political at a memorial service. Do the families of those cops really want to hear that? Probably not. He shifted his party to the left even more, and it brought up the rise of the Tea Party movement. Say what you want about what he did to "recover" the economy, but we're at 2% GDP growth. My history prof last week said that we were at like 5% during Reagan and Kennedy.

I know I'm biased, but my favorite was Reagan. He helped the economy out of stagflation, even though it took a few years. He took it out of the Keynesian death spiral of more gov't spending which equaled more inflation and more unemployment during the Ford and Carter years. Keynesian economics doesn't solve unemployment and inflation at the same time, but it solves one or the other. Reagan's advisers told him that using classical or supply-side econ could fix it. He made Carter look like a chump. I know Reagan had faults in foreign policy, but it turned out alright as he learned from mistakes. I wish I could do Reagan's profile more justice, but this is just stuff that's coming from the top of my head. I recommend CNN's The Eighties for more info on him.

I'm open to hear why exactly Henley and Frey don't like Reagan. Like, what makes Reagan and HW Bush chumps compared to Bill Clinton?

[WS82Classics]

I'm open to hear why exactly Henley and Frey don't like Reagan. Like, what makes Reagan and HW Bush chumps compared to Bill Clinton?

Both men were/are Liberal Democrats, so I assume they opposed him on standard fare matters of principle(environment, taxes, war, etc). I'm sure a guy like Bernie Leadon has more personal misgivings with America's 40th President, as he had sort of a common-law relationship with Reagan's disowned daughter Patti(with whom he co-wrote "I Wish You Peace").

I personally think Reagan was no better than an average President of the United States. His policies helped bring about the end of the Cold War and his tax cuts did spur economic growth, but the rather incendiary rhetoric he took on in his political career(inciting the "Silent Majority" to launch a bloodbath against the Hippie movement) was a bit much. That said, Conservatives over-hype him to such a dizzying degree that it is hard to take those historical perspectives seriously anymore.

I like Bush 41 a whole lot(Bush 43 not so much), and I think he is probably going to be our last good President for at least 4 more years. Ford was also very under-rated as a President. As to Nixon, I think if one switched out the scripts for one of his speeches, a Dan Quayle speech, and a Donald Trump speech, give each man a different script and put them in front of a camera, it is doubtful that the average observer could tell the difference between the three.

[Annoying Twit]

I think that people are under-rating Barak Obama. He's far from perfect. While I understand the feelings behind it, I found it macabre that he was watching the attack on Osama Bin Laden's house. However, I think he's done a very good job. It does make a difference that some of his actions are things that I support independently, e.g. socialised medicine for all.

I didn't know much about Hassan Rouhani until recently. However, again I think that while there is much I disagree with, he is doing an interesting job in a difficult environment. He has publically taken on the hard-liners in his government (compare to Obama) and has said many interesting things. E.g. "Our first duty is to respect people's dignity and personality. God has bestowed dignity to all human beings and this dignity precedes religion." This was being critical of Iran's morality police. I can't find the quote where he says that the morality police shouldn't be interfering in people's lives. I've been studying Iran a bit recently as I'm going to do a long foreign trip, and want to break it on the Asian continent. One thing that surprised me is how liberal and pro-Western the youth, in particular, of Iran are. If there are disputes between the countries, it appears to be at government level, not at the level of the peoples. It's an hour long, but I found this revealing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYoa9hI3CXg As the generations change in Iran, what will happen when there is an increasingly liberal (and secular) populace ruled by a theocracy? History does not suggest that things will change smoothly.

If the US government was made of Obama clones, it would in my political view be much improved. There might be more gun laws etc. Similarly an Iranian government made of Rouhani clones without the hard-liners would in my opinion be much improved. In both cases, however, I don't know huge amounts about them and it's possible that I could learn things considerably not to my liking.

However, things can get worse. Trump could win in the US and hard-liners seem to be making political gains in Iran. If both come to be, who knows what could happen.

As far as Iran and nuclear weapons go, they have hundreds of nuclear weapons pointed at them. I would much, much, prefer that the solution would be to find a way for Iran to NOT have nuclear weapons and for there to be no such weapons pointed at them (or exist in the world at all.) I'm not so innocent that I believe that this can easily happen.

For the UK, Theresa May actually appears to be a skilled leader, better in that way than several recent politicians. However, the problem is that her politics differ greatly from mine, and she appears to be effectively putting things into action that I disagree with. Seasoned with things I fully support, e.g. the potential pardon for those convicted of same-sex love when that was illegal (e.g. Alan Turing) which I am fully behind.

One thing I don't know: previously I thought Clinton was reasonable. Her husband was a relatively good president in some ways. I don't know how much of the mud thrown at her is BS, and how much is honest. Bernie Saunders is much more my sort of person, but that isn't going to happen.

[UndertheWire]

I just rewatched some of the Spitting Image Reagan sketches. I'm not sure to what extent they influenced (the british) public opinion of Reagan about much they were just reflecting what was already out there. I remember being somewhat scared that that kind of man could become american President and worrying that he could start a nuclear war. Alongside this, there was a perception that he was a puppet with good speaking skills but small intellect and going senile. Alongside this, was concern about his VP with one of the jokes running along the lines of "What are the scariest words in the english language?" "Dan, I don't feel well."

By the end of the decade, the Berlin Wall had come down and the Cold War was over. Ray-gun and Gorby seemed to be getting on fine.

Of course, it turns out that Reagan probably was suffering from a certain degree of dementia in the later years of his presidency. That has to be a concern with both Clinton and Trump.

[WS82Classics]

Here's hoping tonight's Presidential debate yields something sensible in the way of results.

[travlnman2]

"It could be Russia could be China or a 400 pound man on his bed":rofl:

[NightMistBlue]

That was a nice moment of levity.

Mrs. Clinton did very well, as expected. As much as I like her as a person and think she's more than competent to be president, I just can't vote for someone who is not going to enforce the immigration laws.

I don't think I can vote for Trump either, he's unstable. Gotta be Lynda Carter then. Only Wonder Woman can save us.

[RudieCantFail]

I'm only catching bits and pieces of the VP debate, but I'll probably get the highlights later. Geez, I wouldn't have as much of a problem voting Pence for President. He can actually articulate his thoughts with coherent sentences and responses. I couldn't imagine hearing a State of the Union from Trump.

[WS82Classics]

There was never much doubt that Pence would be a better debater than Trump(it helps that Pence is an actual Conservative). Kaine, however, is quite underwhelming as a debater, and makes Clinton look like one of the debating greats by comparison.

My guess is Trump gains about a point or two nationally from his VP's performance, only to drop by margins greater than his gains after Sunday's town hall debate with Clinton, where he has already indicated he will bring up Bill Clinton's infidelities(that'll go over well with the average voters who comprise the debate hall audience).

[WalshFan88]

I thought Pence did an ok job but ultimately favored Kaine. I agree though that Pence has way more self-restraint (and IMO common sense) than Trump.

[WS82Classics]

In a campaign that has withstood attacks on Hispanics, prisoners of war, female journalists, disabled people, Muslims, the military, among many others, this new audio of Trump talking about how he, as a star, can grope anyone he likes should finally mark the end of him, his campaign, and his brand.

I'm glad this is finally out there--Confirms everything I've suspected about him and then some. For the next 4 1/2 weeks, I won't be worrying a bit about the prospect of a President Donald J. Trump. Much as I disagree with Clinton, I'll be glad for the country that we can finally be able to call someone "Madame President."

[WalshFan88]

Just catching up on the latest on Trump...

A leaked video shows him off camera making very vulgar, rude, lewd comments about and towards women and is really disgusting. Yes it's locker room guy-to-guy talk, but much like you leave the school that has locker rooms, you'd like to think you leave that mentality in your early adult/post-adelescent years in said locker room.

I think he is a vile person and there is no way I'd ever vote for him. And I've felt that way for a long time. This was just icing on a already heavily iced cake. This wasn't the deciding factor for me, but I'd bet dollars to donuts it is for some. He's always been known as a misogynistic guy and the comments he's made more publicly are disgusting and this was just a glimpse into what he's really like behind closed doors (not saying his public behavior is much better).

I don't think for a minute he has grown up or feels sorry for the comments he made. I think he's sorry this got leaked and was caught when we are not far at all from election day. It couldn't have come at a worse time for him. Boo hoo. This next debate ought to be pretty darn interesting. I certainly will be watching. ;)

[WS82Classics]

Republicans are dumping Trump en masse. Pence is now rumoured to be considering abandoning the ticket, marking the first time since Democrat Thomas Eagleton in 1972 that a VP has abandoned a major party ticket. My personal expectation is that Trump loses in a landslide similar to George McGovern's '72 loss. My guess? Clinton wins the Electoral College 511-27 over Trump, 54-36 in the popular vote(Johnson takes around 10%).

Have spent over a year considering which song sums up the Trump phenomenon. While I'm not any closer to figuring that part out, I do have a song that sums up Trump himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOqblSqx_VI

Donald Trump: Nearly a laugh, but really a cry.

[WalshFan88]

So now old Trump has Bill Clinton's "accusers" at the press conference with him on each side and they will be in the audience when Chelsea and Bill will be watching Hillary. That's just low and dirty. Hillary and Bill (and Chelsea) don't deserve that.

I think it's only fair they play the ENTIRE bus tape before this shindig starts. And I think they shouldn't censor it at all. Start with a disclaimer for kids in the room about the language and then play it in full without censors. The world needs to hear how dirty, low, and unpresidential Donald J. Trump is. It's sickening.

Go Hillary, I hope you take him to the cleaners yet again. This will not knock her off of her game, as much as "the Donald" would like to think it will. I'm sure Trump supporters and Hillary haters will love it, but it is not the right thing to do.

[travlnman2]

Trump won the debate with this line.

"Honest Abe never lied that's why he was honest and that's the difference between him and u.":rofl:

Every time he took Hillary to the cleaners she smiles.

[RudieCantFail]

I think Trump did a better job at debating this time around, but that's not saying much, considering the laughable disaster of the first presidential debate. It's a better sign that I didn't laugh as much at his comments this time around, and I didn't think it was like an SNL skit too.

I honestly can't trust or believe what comes out of Clinton's mouth. It's a little less so with Donald to an extent, but it's almost the same amount of disdain. These are just instincts rather than using rational thought because there's hardly any this election cycle.

ETA: @travlnman2, I'd have to agree with you on the smiling at some points. I think she just smiles to avoid looking wrong and to fool us into thinking that Donald is a complete fool. He is a fool, but he didn't do as bad this time around. I mean, why would you even act like you lost your cool. If you smile, then it's a nervous tic or you're trying to look superior. People that like her take the smile as a victory, but people that don't like her take it as a sign of weakness or trickery.

I don't think he necessarily won with your line of choice, but he did a better job in this debate. It was a good line though, and I liked how he snapped back at her. He needs to act like this in the subsequent debates and not lose his cool.

[WalshFan88]

I thought Hillary did a remarkable job and I thought Trump was a sniffling, babbling mess. I thought his diversion from his bus tape comments to "fighting ISIS" was disgusting.

As far as trusting Hillary, I do trust her and the results of the investigations done on her make it even moreso.

It comes down to the lesser of two evils for some. For me it's no contest.

[RudieCantFail]

@WalshFan88, whatever happened with Benghazi didn't come into my mind when she spoke. I think that she's just full of it and she just says stuff to look good, just like how Donald says stuff to energize his base. She's too slick and I don't like how she tries to come up with a "good" answer for everything. I retort a lot of the things she says, since she just thinks that she's so right. You could actually apply this to anybody, but like I said, I think she's full of it, just like Donald, except w/ more political XP.

Whenever she brings up her qualifications and yada yada, it always comes to my mind that she would be nothing if Bill wasn't her husband. I don't think she could become Senator of NY and all those positions of power if she didn't have the name recognition. This isn't discrediting her intelligence because although she failed the DC bar, she at least passed it in Arkansas. All I'm saying is, the name recognition of her husband was the catalyst for her position now. Heck, to some people, there's really nothing wrong with this b/c why wouldn't you just use the name recognition of someone close to you for your own personal and professional gain? Donald sure did, since his dad was pretty well off and he expanded his father's wealth.

As for Trump's comments, I don't blame him for avoiding the question like that. There are more important things to worry about other than his conduct, but I do understand that it's a question affecting his character, which also affects how we perceive any possible actions from him.

I think it's a little funny that in 1992, a bigger deal was made about Bill being a draft dodger instead of reports of his philandering. But now, a bigger deal is made about Trump's lewd comments rather than him avoiding Vietnam through college deferments and bad feet. (I actually don't mind the bad feet part if it was legit, since my grandpa had flat feet and was told that he couldn't be drafted in the 442nd during WWII.) Boy, times have changed.

If she does win, I expect a recession to hit as a result of a continuation of Obama's policies. If it doesn't, then the economy is still going to remain at the sluggish 0.8 to at most 2% rate of GDP growth, like it has been for the last four quarters.

To me, the best case scenarios would be: Donald Trump gets a stroke, the 25th Amendment is invoked and Pence becomes president OR Hillary is just a one-term president. I highly doubt that she could go on for two terms, or we are really crazy.

Sorry if this last line or any of my previous statements are a bit harsh or offensive.

ETA: It comes down to who can hide the fact that they're just terrible, since a lot of candidates have flaws.

[WalshFan88]

As for Trump's comments, I don't blame him for avoiding the question like that. There are more important things to worry about other than his conduct, but I do understand that it's a question affecting his character, which also affects how we perceive any possible actions from him.


I mostly agree with your post RCF except this part.

His conduct is a big deal. And yes, I do have high standards for a president. His character is very poor. Making fun of a disabled journalist, calling Mexicans rapists, banning all Muslims, the comments about women from the Megyn Kelly thing to Miss Universe, the bus tape was just icing on a cake with enough icing already.

I expect better of my president. I expect them to have self-restraint, a controllable temper or none at all, and one that doesn't discriminate ANYONE. I hold them to a higher standard than myself at times, but you don't see me running for the highest power of the United States and never will even if I could.

Is it as big or important as ISIS, of course no. But neither are the comments about Bill Clinton or comments about what Hillary has or hasn't done especially when she's been proven innocent. Those aren't as severe either, but Trump supporters and Trump himself have no problem bringing them up AGAIN and again. I have a problem with that. People have no problem ignoring Trump's conduct but seem to get all hot and bothered about something Hillary did that is just as minor (or major).

But I did expect him to answer the question and then and only then when the moderator changed the subject, stop talking about it. Instead of trying to slyly distract people with something that gets people worked up. He should have apologized like a man and admitted that he couldn't backpedal out of this and moved on. And he didn't do that, at all. He was grasping for straws. "But ISIS!!!".

Likewise, I'm sorry if it's harsh but it's the way I see it and I know I'm not alone.

[RudieCantFail]

That's totally understandable WalshFan88. I think Trump is a deplorable jerk beyond belief and his conduct absolutely sucks. If anyone can name a worse presidential candidate based on their behavior and what they've said, I would love to hear it. I abhor the fact that he's the guy who's representing the GOP's bid for the presidency.

He would have been okay if he stopped at the apology and didn't mention ISIS, but he can't keep his mouth shut. Because he can't shut up, it's why I said I don't blame him I know you don't agree with that statement, but let me elaborate on this. It's a standards thing and mine have been lowered for him, which is really bad b/c he's vying for the highest job in the US. Let me be clear, it's pathetic that my standards have been lowered and I don't find the things he says shocking anymore. I'm just way done with this circus.

[WalshFan88]

That's totally understandable WalshFan88. I think Trump is a deplorable jerk beyond belief and his conduct absolutely sucks. If anyone can name a worse presidential candidate based on their behavior and what they've said, I would love to hear it. I abhor the fact that he's the guy who's representing the GOP's bid for the presidency.

He would have been okay if he stopped at the apology and didn't mention ISIS, but he can't keep his mouth shut. Because he can't shut up, it's why I said I don't blame him I know you don't agree with that statement, but let me elaborate on this. It's a standards thing and mine have been lowered for him, which is really bad b/c he's vying for the highest job in the US. Let me be clear, it's pathetic that my standards have been lowered and I don't find the things he says shocking anymore. I'm just way done with this circus.

I think the GOP have to be very upset at this point. He's bringing them down with him and I don't think that's ok, and I'm a Democrat. I think this election is historic for all of the wrong reasons...

[travlnman2]

I think Trump did a better job at debating this time around, but that's not saying much, considering the laughable disaster of the first presidential debate. It's a better sign that I didn't laugh as much at his comments this time around, and I didn't think it was like an SNL skit too.

I honestly can't trust or believe what comes out of Clinton's mouth. It's a little less so with Donald to an extent, but it's almost the same amount of disdain. These are just instincts rather than using rational thought because there's hardly any this election cycle.

ETA: @travlnman2, I'd have to agree with you on the smiling at some points. I think she just smiles to avoid looking wrong and to fool us into thinking that Donald is a complete fool. He is a fool, but he didn't do as bad this time around. I mean, why would you even act like you lost your cool. If you smile, then it's a nervous tic or you're trying to look superior. People that like her take the smile as a victory, but people that don't like her take it as a sign of weakness or trickery.

I don't think he necessarily won with your line of choice, but he did a better job in this debate. It was a good line though, and I liked how he snapped back at her. He needs to act like this in the subsequent debates and not lose his cool.

Agree. If Hillary OR Trump wins this is how we are going to end uphttps://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_whfIcdg--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1813aqov5wc2jjpg.jpg

That saying. Someone needs to respect Abe Lincoln quickly

[travlnman2]

Also has anoyone noticed that If Hillary is elected this country would have had 27 years of Bus/Clinton's in the white house?

We need new people.

[UndertheWire]

I'm thinking that Trump's conduct is the most important thing, at least in the long term. If he gets elected, the message being given to all americans is that it is acceptable for a powerful man to disrespect the majority of the population. As President he's a role model and he's demonstrating how you can be sucessful through bullying.

[WalshFan88]

I'm thinking that Trump's conduct is the most important thing, at least in the long term. If he gets elected, the message being given to all americans is that it is acceptable for a powerful man to disrespect the majority of the population. As President he's a role model and he's demonstrating how you can be sucessful through bullying.

Absolutely UtW'

[Annoying Twit]

Also has anoyone noticed that If Hillary is elected this country would have had 27 years of Bus/Clinton's in the white house?

We need new people.

Like the UK, politics in the US appear to have been taken over by a political class who only allows the choice of their left or right hand.

What would the polls be like if Bernie Saunders had won the Democratic nomination? How would the media have reported on a Saunders/Trump election and its run-up?

These are no rhetoric questions.

[NightMistBlue]

I would say that politics in the U.S. has gotten more polarised and extreme: the Dems have been pushed very far left IMO. There's no center anymore. For example, during Bill Clinton's presidency he passed welfare reform (requiring people to work for their benefits) and restrictions on not only illegal immigration but also legal immigration. His wife will be burned in effigy as a racist if she attempts to do anything like this.

The Republicans seem to have a deeper crisis on their hands in terms of what the elected leaders and politicians in the party want (pro-business, largely globalist agenda) with what their constituents want. Trump has succeeded with a populist agenda: whether he actually intends to/will be able to implement any of it is anyone's guess.

To answer AT's question, which I may well have misunderstood, "would the media have reported on a Sanders/Trump election and its run-up?" Yes, certainly: Bernie is a likeable figure and popular among the media, young folks and lots of other people. I don't agree with a number of his positions, but I like him as a person and believe he has integrity. He's a very good speaker too.

[scottside]

[QUOTE=NightMistBlue;345081]

The Republicans seem to have a deeper crisis on their hands in terms of what the elected leaders and politicians in the party want (pro-business, largely globalist agenda) with what their constituents want. Trump has succeeded with a populist agenda: whether he actually intends to/will be able to implement any of it is anyone's guess.

I am a lifelong Republican and will make no apologies to anyone for it. Trump wasn't one of my choices in the primary, certainly not as a candidate, although I did find many of his policies refreshing from the usual establishment Republican platform. If another candidate among the 16 losers had come up with some of these ideas, Trump would never have gotten the nomination, but alas, no one learns that the country is just plain sick of the status quo. He picked up and ran with it. Now, we are left between choosing him or Hillary who I could never go for. I haven't decided if I'll vote or not this time, but if I do, it'll only be because I can't fathom having her as commander in chief. However, it would be difficult for me to pull the lever for him too.

[travlnman2]

[QUOTE=NightMistBlue;345081]

The Republicans seem to have a deeper crisis on their hands in terms of what the elected leaders and politicians in the party want (pro-business, largely globalist agenda) with what their constituents want. Trump has succeeded with a populist agenda: whether he actually intends to/will be able to implement any of it is anyone's guess.

I am a lifelong Republican and will make no apologies to anyone for it. Trump wasn't one of my choices in the primary, certainly not as a candidate, although I did find many of his policies refreshing from the usual establishment Republican platform. If another candidate among the 16 losers had come up with some of these ideas, Trump would never have gotten the nomination, but alas, no one learns that the country is just plain sick of the status quo. He picked up and ran with it. Now, we are left between choosing him or Hillary who I could never go for. I haven't decided if I'll vote or not this time, but if I do, it'll only be because I can't fathom having her as commander in chief. However, it would be difficult for me to pull the lever for him too.
Preach it :).

[UndertheWire]

Michelle Obama:

“In our hearts, we all know that if we let Hillary’s opponent win this election, then we are sending a clear message to our kids that everything they’re seeing and hearing is perfectly O.K. We are validating it. We are endorsing it,” Mrs. Obama said. “We’re telling our sons that it’s O.K. to humiliate women. We’re telling our daughters that this is how they deserve to be treated. We’re telling all our kids that bigotry and bullying are perfectly acceptable in the leader of their country.”

[sodascouts]

When I watched the debate, I realized to my consternation that it wasn't about who had the best answers to questions. It wasn't about staying on point or addressing the issues. For most people, it was about who had the best one-liners. In that regard, Trump won. However, it's a sad statement.

I've been the recipient of men grabbing me when I didn't want it. One case it was a stranger at a bar who was drunk and was trying to hit on me, apparently thinking putting his hand up my skirt would "turn me on." I was able to smack him away and he left me alone after that, thankfully. Another time, on a date, I actually said no to the guy and told him I didn't want to have sex, and he STILL stuck his hand up my dress. I had to shove him off of me. Needless to say there were no more dates. These guys tell themselves that if they push hard enough, the girl will give in. They tell themselves that we secretly want it and are just playing hard to get. That's Trump's attitude as well. He doesn't believe it's sexual assault to grab a woman because surely the woman secretly wants him - he's a star. This is an attitude nurtured by our society, unfortunately, and one I have seen up close.

My own father and mother, however, are still voting for Trump, for the simple reason he is not Hillary. Regardless of his character, they believe he will enact policies that are better for America. I asked my dad if there were ANYTHING Trump could do or say that would lose him dad's vote and he said "No." As long as Trump keeps his promises to nominate conservative Supreme Court justices and enact conservative policies in other areas, they are on Team Trump.

I see their logic, but although I don't respect Hillary, at least she wouldn't be a worldwide embarrassment. At least she understands how to behave in public. It's a real issue, folks. This person is representing our country!

I understand the conservative fear of Hillary. I used to be a gung-ho conservative (member of the College Republicans and everything). I still am conservative on most issues. I recognize that she has a lot of problems, has behaved unethically in the past, and flip-flops a lot, but flip-flopping can be a good thing in a way. It means she changes her views to please the public, so at least for the first four years, she'll be adjusting her viewpoints as needed to gain popular support. She won't do anything so extreme that it would alienate enough moderates to jeopardize a second term.

Also, with the Republicans in control of Congress, she can be checked. If she does damage through executive orders, the country can vote her out and a new person can come in and fix things up. Everything can be reversed. It's not Doomsday if Hillary Clinton gets elected. Even the Supreme Court everyone keeps harping about... they only get to decide on cases brought before them, and even those decisions can be superseded by a future Supreme Court if need be. So, I say even if you don't like Hillary, enduring her for four years is better than Trump humiliating us.

[travlnman2]

Honestly I am giving up at this point.

Doesn't anyone find it coincidental that Trump was never called a racist etc accused of groping untill he started running for office? Everytime Hillary has a wikileaks dump they fake a Trump problem . I don't think any of those ladies are telling the truth. The timing is just to coincidental. Also why would Trump fly commercial when he has a private jet? and wouldn't any Flight Attendants have seen it and reported it at the time? Finally I have never flown First Class but I researched and seat rests never move up.

My stance is I hate Trump but I despise Hillary and I might destroy all my electronic devices and hide in the woods for the next 24 days,

[Ive always been a dreamer]

This latest Trump debacle literally turns my stomach, although I can’t say I’m at all surprised by these revelations. I would also expect there could be more to come. Lots of information can come out when you are a candidate for POTUS. However, I have seen him weather so many controversies that no one else could survive, so I don’t take anything for granted as far as the outcome of this election.

As I said earlier in this thread, I believe the ideological differences between the left and the right make us a stronger nation when we are able to come together and do what’s best for America. However, in recent years our country has become too polarized for us to accomplish much of anything, which makes me really sad. It seems like there is no longer any respect for our differences and there are some who will support a candidate on either side no matter what happens. But, I wonder at what point does love of country become more important than party loyalty? IMO, Donald Trump is the epitome of the extreme divisiveness that permeates our nation today and I do not believe he has the character, temperament, or judgment to be President of the United States. I sincerely feel very bad for the huge number of staunch conservatives who feel they have no choice but to stay away from the voting booth in November, and I empathize with their decision. I cherish my right to vote very much and I would hate to be in their position. Even though I don’t think Hillary Clinton is a flawless candidate, I feel she is moderate, qualified, and trustworthy enough to effectively lead our nation at home and abroad. So I feel very lucky that I can cast my vote for her in good conscience. I also totally respect that others may disagree with me.

I know it is hard for a lot of us, including myself, to understand what is going on here, especially in this election. But, I truly hope that on November 8th that our nation will demonstrate that the most of us are moderate and reasonable people, not extremist. I believe most of our posts in this thread show that we are capable of disagreeing over philosophy without making personal attacks on each other.

[WalshFan88]

I agree Soda and Dreamer.

[Glennsallnighter]

I will be honest and say that as far as I can see the majority of Irish people (and this is represented across much of Europe, particularly European heads of State)would prefer to see a Hillary Clinton led government. The General consensus is that she may not be perfect but at least she can hold herself. They fear Trump

[StephUK]

I will be honest and say that as far as I can see the majority of Irish people (and this is represented across much of Europe, particularly European heads of State)would prefer to see a Hillary Clinton led government. The General consensus is that she may not be perfect but at least she can hold herself. They fear Trump

I think you're right GA. I don't think many people here in England would want to see Trump as President. He is a vile, uncouth man. His attitude and behaviour is a disgrace, and out of line with accepted European standards. A recent news report said that some countries(no names given) think that the US is becoming politically unstable. Their choice of president is going to be under even more scrutiny than usual.
I can understand US citizens wanting action on their border issues (as did UK citizens) and Clinton is falling on this.
It's certainly going to be an interesting election.

[GlennLover]

I will be honest and say that as far as I can see the majority of Irish people (and this is represented across much of Europe, particularly European heads of State)would prefer to see a Hillary Clinton led government. The General consensus is that she may not be perfect but at least she can hold herself. They fear Trump

I think most Canadians feel that way as well.

[NightMistBlue]

She won't do anything so extreme that it would alienate enough moderates to jeopardize a second term.

Good point but she also "owes" a lot of people - interest groups if you will - who helped get her elected. She's on record as saying she "won't break up families" (code for won't deport anyone unless they're serial axe murderers) and favors open borders. I just can't go there, as much as I like and respect her as a person.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

With regard to immigration/deportation, it probably not widely known in the general public that President Obama has had the toughest deportation policy of any president in U.S. history according to the Department of Homeland Security. Hillary Clinton has said she will adopt a similar policy as President Obama.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661)

How many people have been deported under Obama?

President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief."

Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).


How does he compare to other presidents?

According to governmental data (https://www.dhs.gov/yearbook-immigration-statistics), the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history. In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.

President George W. Bush's administration deported just over two million during his time in office; and Obama’s numbers don’t reflect his last year in office, for which data is not yet available.

[WalshFan88]

Agreed Dreamer.

As far as Hillary having interest groups, I think all politicians do to varying degrees. However DJT's potential ties to Russia concern me way more than the possibility of Hillary having interest groups that have supported her. I don't think she'd do anything to favor them by hurting us. Donald, I'm not so sure. He shrugs off the fact he's supported Putin. I think there's more to that but that's JMO.

[RudieCantFail]

I'm going to vote for Evan McMullin w/ his VP Mandy Finn, since he has a chance in Utah. I think he's a better choice than Gary Johnson. As a Republican, I feel that is my best option. He's a write-in ticket in California, and if both candidates don't reach 270 and he wins Utah, then I think the GOP-controlled House and Senate would go for McMullin over that son of an orange. I thought to myself earlier that I felt that my name might get pulled more frequently for jury duty if I vote for Trump based solely on party solidarity, not that I like him.

I know that this last thought sounds ridiculous, but hey, you never know. I live in a Democrat-controlled state that just passed more gun laws and now it allows illegal immigrants to buy Obamacare thanks to Governor Moonbeam (Jerry Brown).

[NightMistBlue]

With regard to immigration/deportation, it probably not widely known in the general public that President Obama has had the toughest deportation policy of any president in U.S. history according to the Department of Homeland Security.

I'm sorry but that's a deliberate deception - they're playing games with the numbers. Even President Obama has admitted the administration's claims of record deportations are "a little deceptive."

A couple of years ago, they started counting people turned away at the border as "deportations" - i.e., they're padding the numbers by taking credit for removing tens of thousands of people who were turned away by Border Patrol. These cases (which were counted as "voluntary departures" before) represented about half of all "deportations" in the supposedly record counts of the Obama administration.

This is how they're able to give the false impression that they are vigorously enforcing immigration laws. In 2013, ICE agents encountered more than 700,000 aliens who could have been removed. Most were found in jails. But they took action against fewer than 200,000; meaning that ICE is now releasing more illegal aliens — including criminal aliens — than it is arresting (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, URL: http://cis.org/node/5082).

This op-ed in the Washington Post gives a clear explanation of the shifting terminology and dicey claims: "Lies, Damned Lies and Obama's Deportation Statistics" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/

[Philh]

As an English guy with an American sister, I am watching the US Election with interest.

Here is an opinion from Bruce Springsteen.

Bruce Springsteen: 'Trump is a conman'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-37696852

[NightMistBlue]

I live in a Democrat-controlled state that just passed more gun laws and now it allows illegal immigrants to buy Obamacare thanks to Governor Moonbeam (Jerry Brown).

How did you feel when the Gov called your state "the other Mexico" and said to undocumented people, “You’re all welcome in California”? As if your state - or any place - can absorb millions and millions of people with no decline in the environment and quality of life. That's magical thinking, a denial of reality IMO.

I checked out this McMullin guy's web site; I like his views.

[RudieCantFail]

I didn't catch Brown saying that in the news, but I'm not surprised that such a statement like that would come from him. We're in a drought and traffic sucks. We don't need more people in my state. I've heard that traffic is much worse in Southern CA than here in Northern CA, and I can't really imagine how bad it really is over there. If I wanted to live in Mexico, then I would go there but I don't. Mexico doesn't have that great of a government, since they can't control the drug war as well as they should among other things. This isn't a race thing. It's just that Mexico is really close to the US and it's much easier to get in here illegally versus someone from Europe, Asia, or Africa.

I don't blame illegal immigrants for wanting to come here, since it's much nicer here than where they came from. However, just because it's nicer here, doesn't mean we have to let anyone who feels entitled to come in here. I agree with your statement, NMB. If the immigration was done legally, I don't have a problem with it.

[WalshFan88]

Just finished watching the 3rd and final debate.

I felt Hillary took him to the cleaners for a third time and DJT continued to make a @ss out of himself and showed just how unfit he is to be President. She was prepared, and she had many quips that were true and I feel she pretty much dominated this debate.

I feel the closing statements were also quite telling. And the fact Trump acted like he wouldn't accept a loss is SCARY. I feel that he is truly a loose cannon and if he does lose, his followers who have even less morals and restraints than him might do something crazy and that worries me.

I felt Hillary Clinton did an amazing job and didn't back down and handled herself like a true POTUS.

[travlnman2]

Hillary did a horrible job. She hanged herself on Syria on The Foundation if your under investigation by the FBI you should not be able to run just like if your on the no fly list you ahould not be able to by a gun.

[travlnman2]

How can a woman say she supports children but yet approves of Late Term Abortions.

[Ive always been a dreamer]

I'm sorry but that's a deliberate deception - they're playing games with the numbers. Even President Obama has admitted the administration's claims of record deportations are "a little deceptive."

A couple of years ago, they started counting people turned away at the border as "deportations" - i.e., they're padding the numbers by taking credit for removing tens of thousands of people who were turned away by Border Patrol. These cases (which were counted as "voluntary departures" before) represented about half of all "deportations" in the supposedly record counts of the Obama administration.

This is how they're able to give the false impression that they are vigorously enforcing immigration laws. In 2013, ICE agents encountered more than 700,000 aliens who could have been removed. Most were found in jails. But they took action against fewer than 200,000; meaning that ICE is now releasing more illegal aliens — including criminal aliens — than it is arresting (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, URL: http://cis.org/node/5082).

This op-ed in the Washington Post gives a clear explanation of the shifting terminology and dicey claims: "Lies, Damned Lies and Obama's Deportation Statistics" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/21/lies-damned-lies-and-obamas-deportation-statistics/

NMB - Like most things these days, if you search the internet, you will get many conflicting reports of the accuracy of the numbers and much of it depends on who is doing the counting. As we always say, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I don't know this, but it would seem that the Dept. of Homeland Security would use the same method to calculate their numbers for all the administrations or, if they changed the formula, at least notate that. In any event, until the numbers for this year are calculated, of course, we don't have an accurate count of this administration's final numbers.

However, the point I was trying to make in my post was to illustrate that the Obama administration is not nearly as soft on deportation as they are perceived to be by a lot of their detractors. So, no matter what the final numbers turn out to be, I believe they will probably bear out that point. JMHO

And on another note, I am soooo ready for this election to be over! ;-)

[Annoying Twit]

I've seen the third debate now. It wasn't as bad as I feared. Clearly it's very Republican versus very Democrat politics. They did go off the central plot at some times, but it wasn't the extreme farce that I expected.

[WalshFan88]

I feel like the third debate was probably the best one. Going in, I was worried that a FOX News (or Faux News, as I like to call them! :hilarious:) moderator would favor Trump and therefore, be unfair to HRC. That said, that moderator did a good job not only of being fair but keeping things on topic and trying to control the negative parts. So I was pleasantly surprised. I also thought DJT started out very well mannered/restrained, but then it didn't take long for that to go away.

And another thing:

I normally am someone who has been a bit more on the sensitive side of things and tends to not say how I truly feel, especially things that are controversial but if there is one thing I've learned, even up until now is that you have to stand up for yourself and what you believe in and become a little less eager to please others for the sake of lack of conflict in order to truly be happy with yourself. Even just a couple years ago I wouldn't have ever posted in a thread like this, I've always been opinionated and more so online than IRL, but that's changing. I feel that trying to please everyone and putting on a nice facade is not the way to go about it. So yes, I feel strongly about this and I feel it's only right to stand up for what I believe in and what my values are, and I think everyone should do so as well. And if you can do it without demeaning the beliefs of others, it is truly the definition of someone who can have a "I don't give a crap" attitude, yet still be respectful of others yet be able to not be afraid to make your feelings known. It's called dignity. You can be respectful of people and want to make them happy without losing priorities or letting them walk all over you. It's truly a balance. You go off one way and you are never respected as you never state your beliefs, you go off another and you seem uninterested in the thoughts of others if not downright arrogant. Learning to walk that balance has led me to slowly peel off the shell of someone who is socially anxious. I'm still on the shy side but better. Flipping from one extreme to the other is not helping you. And I've done it.

No one should ever feel like they have to tippy toe around somebody or censor themselves (unless it's needed and you know it's better off not to say anything if you can't be nice or at least respectful), but in the same respect, that doesn't give someone the go ahead to be rude or cruel or insensitive of other's feelings, beliefs, or opinions. Positivity, while still maintaining a sense of dignity is truly the best way to go. It's ok to have an opinion that others may not agree with, as long as it's not hurting anyone. It's never right to have to walk on eggshells, but it's also never right to throw out spikes under others' feet either that trip them.

I think this thread has been very insightful, if not thoughtful and well handled. I guarantee you there are a TON of forums who either allow political discussions and it gets nasty down to personal attacks, OR they ban it altogether. If they could all be more like this thread, it would allow for tasteful debate and discourse without either being too afraid to say how you feel OR be out of control and nasty.

Kudos to everyone who's posted in this thread...I may not agree with all of you, and some of you may not agree with me. And you know what - that's totally ok!

[RudieCantFail]

I hope that this doesn't get taken too seriously or offensively. Rag on Fox News all you want, but IMO, MSNBC or MSLSD is just as bad on the left. I don't watch either network, and I've only seen a few episodes of Fox coverage. Most of the time, I go to CNN. I'm glad that Melissa Harris-Perry is no longer on MSNBC b/c she's maddening. She took Alfonso Aguilar's comment about Paul Ryan being a hard worker way too sensitively and she said that it was a wrong word choice b/c of slavery.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdtAxXGh-Y

She also said that Star Wars was racist b/c she interpreted Darth Vader being representative of a black person. (Sorry about the ending part, but this is the only short clip that I could find).

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDFnrNtqAjo

All I'm saying is that MSNBC doesn't get the crackdown that it deserves in comparison to Fox. They're both biased networks, so they should get the same amount of criticism. However, that's not the case, and Fox gets ridiculed more often.

NOTE: Any dumb thing that Fox does deserves to be ridiculed and criticized, BTW. It's just that I don't see it happen to MSNBC that often. I mean, people were making fun of CNN for going overboard with the missing Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, but I don't blame them. If you bring up black holes appearing all of a sudden in the ocean, you're opening yourself up to anything.

Anyways, I'm glad that you, WalshFan88, aren't sensitive to the opposing viewpoint. You stand your ground and you don't just ignore or write insults. I commend you for that. On Twitter, whenever I try to debate with facts and links, those people block me. They're like ostriches that stick their heads in the sand, and it gives me an unfavorable view of liberals. I'm glad that the liberals on here don't back down and have a legitimate and calm response. I know that some conservatives online use the block button as well, and I think that's wrong. You all are quite reasonable, unlike the other social media platforms and comments sections of news articles and blog posts.

[MortSahlFan]

Both candidates are the worst.

[WalshFan88]

I hope that this doesn't get taken too seriously or offensively. Rag on Fox News all you want, but IMO, MSNBC or MSLSD is just as bad on the left. I don't watch either network, and I've only seen a few episodes of Fox coverage. Most of the time, I go to CNN. I'm glad that Melissa Harris-Perry is no longer on MSNBC b/c she's maddening. She took Alfonso Aguilar's comment about Paul Ryan being a hard worker way too sensitively and she said that it was a wrong word choice b/c of slavery.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdtAxXGh-Y

She also said that Star Wars was racist b/c she interpreted Darth Vader being representative of a black person. (Sorry about the ending part, but this is the only short clip that I could find).

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDFnrNtqAjo

All I'm saying is that MSNBC doesn't get the crackdown that it deserves in comparison to Fox. They're both biased networks, so they should get the same amount of criticism. However, that's not the case, and Fox gets ridiculed more often.

NOTE: Any dumb thing that Fox does deserves to be ridiculed and criticized, BTW. It's just that I don't see it happen to MSNBC that often. I mean, people were making fun of CNN for going overboard with the missing Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, but I don't blame them. If you bring up black holes appearing all of a sudden in the ocean, you're opening yourself up to anything.

Anyways, I'm glad that you, WalshFan88, aren't sensitive to the opposing viewpoint. You stand your ground and you don't just ignore or write insults. I commend you for that. On Twitter, whenever I try to debate with facts and links, those people block me. They're like ostriches that stick their heads in the sand, and it gives me an unfavorable view of liberals. I'm glad that the liberals on here don't back down and have a legitimate and calm response. I know that some conservatives online use the block button as well, and I think that's wrong. You all are quite reasonable, unlike the other social media platforms and comments sections of news articles and blog posts.

I agree that MSNBC is very biased to the left. I also think FOX is very biased towards the right.

People like to say CNN stands for Clinton News Network but honestly they are the least biased out of the three.

For the record, I don't think media should be biased either way. I've long been a fan of CNN and I will likely always be a fan of CNN. Sometimes I flip on FOX to see how ridiculous they are getting, but I have to fairly admit that MSNBC is very biased. I watch their channel sparingly but I'm mostly a CNN guy.

[travlnman2]

I appreciate Walshfans views. I am more of right leaning Libertarian. I am most effected by the illegal immigration policies of HRC because it pisess me
off that she wants to give amensty to Illiegal Immigrants when my dad came here legally and did mot recive or want support and worked his way up to where he is now.



If you want unbiased media watch cspan :D

[WalshFan88]

And here it is folks. Election day. I hope everyone that could vote, did so.

I really am hoping that the majority of America realizes how unpresidential DJT truly is. The poor, in need in of help people would be the first he'd screw over. The redneck/country folk - same thing. He is a rich businessman who pretends to care about the little guy to sneak his way into the White House for personal gain.

The email investigation reopening was ridiculous, just to please the GOP. It's been proven again and again that while it was a mistake, it was not done with malicious intent. Those who say people are afraid to talk because of the Clinton body count is truly ridiculous. That fact is, they don't like the answers. Still, it couldn't have come at a worse time for us and a better time for them. By the time she was cleared yet AGAIN, early voting was underway. It makes me sick.

I still believe HRC will prevail and I am proud to say I support her. Go Hillary!

[thelastresort]

I think this whole debacle is proof if it was ever needed that the lesser of two evils is still evil. What a depressing situation all round. 300,000,000 citizens and those are the best two they find. Heaven help us.

[WalshFan88]

Fair enough, TLR...

But to me and most around me, Hillary isn't as bad as some say she is, and Trump is a lot worse than some say he is.

But it would have been nice to have more selection. In all honesty, I'd still probably side with Clinton and definitely democratic.

[RudieCantFail]

This is probably going to bring out the nasty side of me, but I get irked when people say it was done without malicious intent. You can do a lot of things without malicious intent, make a mistake, or call it an accident, but it doesn't change the fact that you did it. I would have liked to see some punishment for being negligent.

Then again, law is subject to interpretation and the degree of how severe the punishment should be will vary. On the extreme side of things, there are different degrees of murder. I'm not going to go through the 4 degrees, since the 2nd and 3rd are a little confusing. It either goes by intent or no intent. Vehicular homicides are often unintentional, but the fact that you did it means you get punished under a court of law.

I realize that no charges were pressed against her and she probably cackled for a while about it. However, she deserves some sort of punishment as a sign that not even the political elite gets away with things like that. If you break the law, you break the law. I don't care if it's intentional or not.

I know that this will not change your mind, WalshFan88, and that's fine. I didn't vote for Trump in CA. I wrote-in vote Evan McMullin. I just think that it's wrong that someone who makes a mistake whether it's intentional or not doesn't get further punishment. I know that the alternative is that son of an orange, so fine. She gets away with it because the alternative is quite unappealing.

[WalshFan88]

Oh boy, well this isn't at all related to the election other than this. I think she made an accident yes. Should they have taken action? Maybe. Do I think she should have been punished to the extent of being out of the running of POTUS, heck no.

As far as vehicular homicides, for me there are fine lines between negligence and accident, and intentional.

For negligence (drinking, texting, not following the rules of the road, driving recklessly, distracted, falling asleep, drug use, etc), yes they should get that title and be punished appropriately. Done intentionally, absolutely to the fullest extent of the law. But for a true accident that was out of their control and they did no wrongdoing, I don't feel they should go to jail for it. Like I said, if it wasn't negligence or intentional, and was a true tragic accident, I don't think those people should be punished. Nor do I believe they should be sued if it was out of their control. If it was out of their control, punishing them to me seems like punishing a kid for accidentally tripping over another kid at school. Yes, it's a lot less severe, but again if it wasn't their fault, it wasn't their fault and why should they give up THEIR freedom for a honest accident. The grief and mental trauma should be enough punishment, and even that isn't deserved IMO.

I know a family where a guy with epilepsy had permission from his doctor to drive (big difference if they do it without permission or a license, that's punishable) and thought it would never be a problem and the guy passed out and had a grand mal seizure. He hit and killed a pedestrian. Not only was he punished for negligence, he lost his license (which is fine considering his condition), and he was sued by the victims family. The victim's family should sue the doctor for making the wrong decision if sue at all. Now the guy has legal issues along with obvious remorse and PTSD. I don't like that at all.

[travlnman2]

I honestly am SHOCKED. At these results. Right now 183-131.

[RudieCantFail]

I can't believe that Trump did it against all odds. I think it's a disservice to believe that this election was simply based on discrimination. The Rust Belt would probably have voted Democrat, if Democratic policies worked for them. The GOP had a terrible candidate and had no faith in him, yet he still won. I don't think this was a matter of that he was the best candidate. Clinton was seen as the continuation of 4 years of Obama's policies and Democrat control, and the Rust Belt had enough of that. Usually after 8 years, voters will switch the party that controls the presidency.

[WalshFan88]

I'm so disappointed in America...

One thing is for sure now, they have made their bed and they need to lie in it. They will realize how they have fallen for the man's BS in thinking he will help the working man. He will do no such thing, I'd bet money on it. I'm only lying in the bed as a result of too many people falling for his lines and thinking he will provoke change. Hillary would have kept this country on the right track IMO.

I fear (and with reason) a very dark 4 years. The economy is already being effected. What's going to happen when Trump throws a tantrum over something he doesn't like instead of trying to come up with solutions? What's going to happen when Trump and his classic lack of self-control is going to say the wrong thing to the wrong foreign leader (Though Putin is exempt as he is his puppet at this point)? What's he going to do when his arrogance keeps him from making peaceful negotiations that will affect many? What is he going to do when he recklessly makes decisions? I'll tell you - we will take the blunt of it. WE. People think his rough nature is just an act to rile people up. The bus tape unknowingly to him being recorded is proof that he truly is that way and you need to believe it.

Of course there is checks and balances but he and he alone can do a lot of damage and I don't think people realize(d) that. They will soon learn and then will backpedal like they always have. And I will have no sympathy for them. None.

I can promise you one thing. I've never posted ONE political thing to my Facebook but others do. It's one thing to share your views but calling Hillary and Obama names, calling liberals names, hurtful memes, all of it. It can all go right back on them. I'm not saying every Republican does this. I find it is the classless people of the world and some (not all!) of the "redneck" type that is a lot like Trump himself and make racial slurs, misogynistic comments, homophobic insults, bullied special needs kids in school, perhaps even made off color comments about disabled people. The people like the people at Trump rallies making comments. Even getting their kid to cuss and make nasty comments about HRC. Those people are of course, voting for Trump. It's been proven that the number one demographic for a Trump voter is an uneducated white male. They are a lot of his supporters unfortunately. I feel like every time Trump screws up to post about it like they did for Obama, but I'm better than that and won't let it get to my head.

IMO the two biggest Trump voter groups are those who don't know any better, and those that are as low and as classless as he is. There are people who truly think he is what America needs. But most people are uneducated and/or see a loudmouth and think "yeah, that's what we need - he thinks like me!". Yawn.

This, if not directly, is sending the message to our youth that it's ok to be racist, homophobic, misogynistic, bullying, insult-slinging, and classless. I mean if our PRESIDENT is, why not us?! It must be okay, he got into the highest power of office saying and doing those things. It must be okay. It is never okay to do that.

I feel this election and presidency will move America back, not forward. Equality is a must for all genders and all races and all sexual orientations. Respecting those who have different views and loving what we all share is so important. Knowing it is NOT ok to defriend, bully, insult, threaten those who have different views. Knowing it is NOT ok for anyone, especially a president to make comments and actions like DJT did and will do. Knowing that, and following that is progress.

All in all, it's been a crazy election and I hope I never have to witness this again in my lifetime. I've never seen so much hatred, rampant narcissism, and division that I have this year. It's sickening, frightening, and needs to change. When you feel like you can go on a news page on Facebook and threaten a guy or make off colored jokes because he supports the person you are against, YOU are the problem. When you feel like you should defriend someone simply for not sharing your views and not liking their opinion and respecting it, YOU are the problem. When you feel it's okay for a president or candidate to do these things, YOU are the problem. This election not only sends a bad message, but will be historic for all the wrong reasons. I feel we have moved two steps back tonight and my heart breaks for those who wanted better whether they knew the right choice or not. And my fists curl for those who support Trump's hateful behavior, and more so for those that resemble him. I think those people are truly the lowest form of life, not far behind murderers and thieves. It may not be a commonly shared belief but it's mine nonetheless. I feel if anything this election has given me newfound confidence to state my opinion even if it isn't accepted by people, even the majority. I'm ok with being different, after so many years of not being so.

For those DJT supporters who are truly good, smart people and don't resemble his behavior or stereotype but felt he was the answer, I respect you and know that those comments are directed at a different, but very prominent audience.

For those who didn't vote at all, I respect your decision. I feel like everyone should vote, but if you don't want to, I don't judge. Because judging is something DJT would do, and I want to spend my life distancing myself from that persona.

For those HRC supporters who fought tooth and nail against people who were supporting knowingly a subhuman individual, or just didn't know any better - I applaud you. When people are attacking you and even threatening you it takes a lot to keep going and fighting the fight. You did and you should be proud. She is.

My heart and respect goes out to Hillary Rodham Clinton for sticking it out among hateful, disrespectful people wishing bad on her, calling her names, and for not buckling under Trump's hidden hateful message that is so easy for some to latch onto. I also applaud her for trying to enlighten people who are good, but didn't know any better. I feel she did her best and deserves not only our respect but our congratulations for running a great campaign. I will be a lifelong supporter.

After it all, all I can say is hope for the best, pray if you pray, and lets be nicer to each other and examine ourselves after this emotion and hate-filled election. Lets perhaps reach out to those we've treated badly or shunned because of opposing views. Let's try to cut down on the gloating/hateful behavior post-election. Let's get back to sharing cat pictures and talking about the weather. While boring to some, to me I'll take ordinary and boring over an stressful dividing long event.

And specifically for the participants on this thread, I applaud you for keeping this as peaceful as possible but not being afraid to make your point. As stressful and as disappointing as this election has been, it's taught me to stand up for things I believe in, but not lose sight of others views or become like Trump - haughty and unwilling to consider others opinions and at the very least, respect them. Thanks!

I feel that after everyone has gotten their final words in, it might be a good idea to lock but not delete this thread. It's all over folks. I think it would serve to be a reminder and informative, but I think eventually it's good to get out of politics mode and don't let this thread become a general politics section and start discerning right from wrong. I am a fan of ending things on a good note. If not the election, then at least this wonderful discussion. It's just my opinion though.

[UndertheWire]

I'm so disappointed in America...
After it all, all I can say is hope for the best, pray if you pray, and lets be nicer to each other and examine ourselves after this emotion and hate-filled election. Lets perhaps reach out to those we've treated badly or shunned because of opposing views. Let's try to cut down on the gloating/hateful behavior post-election. Let's get back to sharing cat pictures and talking about the weather. While boring to some, to me I'll take ordinary and boring over an stressful dividing long event.

Thank you fo those positive thoughts.

My husband rationalised it by pointing out and observation that he read in a financial magazine - out of eight elections that have been preceded by 6 months of falls in the financial markets, seven have seen a change in the winning party. I'll add my own observation that it is very rare for three elections in a row to be one by the same party. There was Reagan+ Bush and before that, you have to go back to the 1930s-40s. If you view it as a vote for change rather than a vote for Trump, it's easier to understand the american electorate.

At a symbolic level, I find this result disappointing, To have the first non-white american president followed by the first female american president would have signalled that neither race nor gender should stand in your way in the modern USA. However, the american people have chosen an old, rich, white man who shows little respect for people who are not like him.

Maybe there's an upside and that both political parties and many americans will be so appalled by this last election that they will work to do better next time.

[AlreadyGone95]

Apparently, over half of Americans, or at least over half of those who voted, want to be transported back to the 19th century.

I wouldn't feel quite as bad about this outcome if all 3 branches of federal government weren't Republican controlled. (I know the Supreme Court isn't at the moment, but it will be soon.). Republicans have a monopoly on our government. Think about that for a minute. One party will control everything that happens in this country for the next 2 years at least. Checks and Balances won't exist at all because there won't be a need for it. These are scary and uncertain times we live in.

I didn't want Trump, but he's what we chose. I think that he'll be a horrible president because of his brash personality and also because of his lack of any kind of political experience. He'll be in over his head.

I understand that some people didn't like Obama. Those people think that our country is too liberal or progressive, but under Obama, we've had effective checks and balances for the past several years: Republican controlled Congress, Democratic President, and a split Supreme Court. Now, it's all Republican controlled. Too much of anything is bad, and I'm afraid that this will ring true for our country.

[travlnman2]

One thing we can all agree on is......THANK THE LORD IT'S FINALLY OVER

[travlnman2]

Apparently, over half of Americans, or at least over half of those who voted, want to be transported back to the 19th century.

I wouldn't feel quite as bad about this outcome if all 3 branches of federal government weren't Republican controlled. (I know the Supreme Court isn't at the moment, but it will be soon.). Republicans have a monopoly on our government. Think about that for a minute. One party will control everything that happens in this country for the next 2 years at least. Checks and Balances won't exist at all because there won't be a need for it. These are scary and uncertain times we live in.

I didn't want Trump, but he's what we chose. I think that he'll be a horrible president because of his brash personality and also because of his lack of any kind of political experience. He'll be in over his head.

I understand that some people didn't like Obama. Those people think that our country is too liberal or progressive, but under Obama, we've had effective checks and balances for the past several years: Republican controlled Congress, Democratic President, and a split Supreme Court. Now, it's all Republican controlled. Too much of anything is bad, and I'm afraid that this will ring true for our country.

The Democrats have controlled my state for over 40 YEARS. We are basiccly the shittiest in the nation. The Democrats controlled the House and Senate for ALL of George W Bush's term and they lost in 2014. We would have had a bad POS even if Killary won. THANK GOD ITS OVER

[travlnman2]

Noticed how I said POS instead of POTUS :lol:

Well fought everyone. THANK GOD ITS OVER.

[AlreadyGone95]

The Democrats have controlled my state for over 40 YEARS. We are basiccly the shittiest in the nation. The Democrats controlled the House and Senate for ALL of George W Bush's term and they lost in 2014. We would have had a bad POS even if Killary won. THANK GOD ITS OVER

Again, that's effective checks and balances. The Democratic controlled Congress kept a Republican president in check. It all balanced out. Now, none of that exists come January 2017.

As for states, the worst state has always been a Republican controlled southern state.

[travlnman2]

Again, that's effective checks and balances. The Democratic controlled Congress kept a Republican president in check. It all balanced out. Now, none of that exists come January 2017.

As for states, the worst state has always been a Republican controlled southern state.

Conneciut is the least friendly buissnes state. It has the worst Roads in America. Trust me i know this as a fact

[travlnman2]

As a symbolic refrence I am wearing a Red Buttondown shirt with Blue Jeans today.

[shunlvswx]

I had a feeling he was going to win. But I feel insulted because I'm black, educated and woman. Trump probably thinks of me as a black, uneducated stupid woman.

I'm really afraid of what this country will become in 4 years.

I hate to say this, but racism kinda rare its ugly head in this race and its going to get worse once Trump gets into office. I can't see why some of my friends on facebook didn't care he actually insulted every race and even women, but I guess he's not bad in their eyes.

I agree. Thank goodness its over. Our state has our mayoral race next year. So I don't think its going to get ugly with that race, but I know the current mayor is not going to get a second term. Our city is broke, he po'd city worker by cutting their checks every month(I use to work for the city. So I know how it feels), the crime is very bad and too many lawsuits going on.

[travlnman2]

Oh My God. Honestly this rediculous the Democrats are "

http://www.ibtimes.com/donald-trump-elected-president-riots-break-out-university-campuses-after-republicans-2443978



With the Republican nominee Donald Trump being elected as the 45th president of the United States, there remains a large part of the American society that is not happy with the popular mandate, causing instances of rioting on many university campuses across the country.

As Trump took to stage to deliver his victory speech in front of cheering crowds at the Hilton Hotel in New York City on Tuesday, Twitter was abuzz with tweets from sources at a number of universities like University of California, Los Angeles, University of Oregon and University of California, Davis. There were also isolated cases of violence and arson with protestors lighting fires on a street in downtown Oakland, California."
There had been fears of such uprisings across the country in the event of a Trump victory. While the New York Police Department, which owing to its jurisdiction over areas housing both the Trump and rival Hillary Clinton’s campaign had high security plans in place, the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) also planned to carry out a contingency plan ahead of the elections.
“The polite thing to say is that this is not unusual, but this has been a very unusual election,” a senior law enforcement official told news website Deadline. “We are ready to go into riot mode if required, if the order comes.”

“Tempers are frayed in a number of our communities from the inflammatory language and policies that some have proposed,” the official added, before the results came out. “If the outcome sees Mr. Trump elected, measures are in place to maintain calm, if need be.”

Tolerance my ass. This honestly pisses me off. Like really? If ypu want to better yourself get a fraaking job. Democrats claim to be a unifier but I mean common.

[travlnman2]

I had a feeling he was going to win. But I feel insulted because I'm black, educated and woman. Trump probably thinks of me as a black, uneducated stupid woman.

I'm really afraid of what this country will become in 4 years.

I hate to say this, but racism kinda rare its ugly head in this race and its going to get worse once Trump gets into office. I can't see why some of my friends on facebook didn't care he actually insulted every race and even women, but I guess he's not bad in their eyes.

I agree. Thank goodness its over. Our state has our mayoral race next year. So I don't think its going to get ugly with that race, but I know the current mayor is not going to get a second term. Our city is broke, he po'd city worker by cutting their checks every month(I use to work for the city. So I know how it feels), the crime is very bad and too many lawsuits going on.

Because if any of us did what Hillary did she would be in jail. Honestly she is the most corrupt person ever. She used CHARITY MONEY TO PAY FOR HER DAUGHTERS WEDDING

[Brooke]

Amen, travlnman! I wonder if she is nervous this morning?

I haven't participated here because I thought most were for Killary and I am sick of her lies and deceit, and I hate arguments.

But, I must say I am a happy person this morning and feel like America will be back on track to be great again. :yay:

[shunlvswx]

IMO Trump shouldn't paint all black people or any minority as uneducated and don't have a job or on welfare. That's what makes me mad sometimes. Not all black people are like that. I'm educated, have a job(well I do need more money, but who doesn't. lol) and I definitely don't need government assist.

To tell the truth. I don't know who was the better candidate.

What that saying goes. Now that you're elected, you now have to walk the walk and talk the talk of what you said you would do. Yes its going to pissed some people off, but we got 4 years until you can vote him out.

[buffyfan145]

I barely slept at all last night and went through every emotion you could think of from shock, to rage, to crippling fear, and now I'm experiencing as sadness I usually only feel when someone dies. I never expected this at all and I'm really sad to see what has happened. The deep racism, anti-women, anti-LGBT, and non-Christian hatred has come back out of the woodwork. Having relatives like this I knew it was there but didn't think it was still as massive as it is. Just sad to see how much more we have to work together to finally get through this. From what I saw most of the people who voted Trump were white, rural, over 40, Christian, and men. It's what I always thought that the older generations are still stuck in their ways and real change won't happen till those older generations are gone in the next couple decades. Most people my age (30s) and younger aren't like this. We grew up with a wide variety of races, religions, and women having equal rights and now the LGBT community getting their equal rights. We all want to unify and create a better future for us and our children and one day we'll get there but we're not there yet.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat as I really think we need to do away with the party system and change it to where people just run without it. Who knows if that will ever happen but all this party system does is create division when we need to unify. I just feel so bad for my friends and those that are minorities. This will affect them the most.

[shunlvswx]

I barely slept at all last night and went through every emotion you could think of from shock, to rage, to crippling fear, and now I'm experiencing as sadness I usually only feel when someone dies. I never expected this at all and I'm really sad to see what has happened. The deep racism, anti-women, anti-LGBT, and non-Christian hatred has come back out of the woodwork. Having relatives like this I knew it was there but didn't think it was still as massive as it is. Just sad to see how much more we have to work together to finally get through this. From what I saw most of the people who voted Trump were white, rural, over 40, Christian, and men. It's what I always thought that the older generations are still stuck in their ways and real change won't happen till those older generations are gone in the next couple decades. Most people my age (30s) and younger aren't like this. We grew up with a wide variety of races, religions, and women having equal rights and now the LGBT community getting their equal rights. We all want to unify and create a better future for us and our children and one day we'll get there but we're not there yet.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat as I really think we need to do away with the party system and change it to where people just run without it. Who knows if that will ever happen but all this party system does is create division when we need to unify. I just feel so bad for my friends and those that are minorities. This will affect them the most.

I agree. Some are still in the old days. To tell the truth. I can kinda on their side with certain issues, but when you start to insult my intelligence and paint me in a box with the same people who are my color, I get turned off real fast. I don't appreciated being called stupid and uneducated. Now not saying ya'll are saying this here. Just talking about other places

I hate to say this. This country is not going to come together as one. We were already apart when Obama became president(I hate to say that), but its going to get worse. The only person who probably will come together will be the ones who are NOT affected. True colors have really came out on people during this race.

I want this country to come together again, but it has to start somewhere. That means stop berated other races.

[travlnman2]

I barely slept at all last night and went through every emotion you could think of from shock, to rage, to crippling fear, and now I'm experiencing as sadness I usually only feel when someone dies. I never expected this at all and I'm really sad to see what has happened. The deep racism, anti-women, anti-LGBT, and non-Christian hatred has come back out of the woodwork. Having relatives like this I knew it was there but didn't think it was still as massive as it is. Just sad to see how much more we have to work together to finally get through this. From what I saw most of the people who voted Trump were white, rural, over 40, Christian, and men. It's what I always thought that the older generations are still stuck in their ways and real change won't happen till those older generations are gone in the next couple decades. Most people my age (30s) and younger aren't like this. We grew up with a wide variety of races, religions, and women having equal rights and now the LGBT community getting their equal rights. We all want to unify and create a better future for us and our children and one day we'll get there but we're not there yet.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat as I really think we need to do away with the party system and change it to where people just run without it. Who knows if that will ever happen but all this party system does is create division when we need to unify. I just feel so bad for my friends and those that are minorities. This will affect them the most.
The reason the older whte male did not support Clunton is one word. JOBS. The Democrats can bitch and call Trump supporters like myself Racist Deplorable etc. When in fact they are being bigots. The rust belt states want a voice. They CAN NOT afford obamacare, THEY CAN NOT AFORD SCHOOLS. They can not loose there jobs because then they will end up homless. JUST STOP WITH THE FALSE ACUUSATIONS OF BIGOTRY ETC. REAL PEOPLE ARE EFFECTED BY THE FAILED OBAMA POLICES AND IT SIOWN. SO PLEAE STOP WITH THE RACIST BULLSHIT.

THE GOP IS THE ONES THAT ENDED SLAVERY ADN STARTED CIVIL RIGHRs. THE DEMOCRATS WERE PRO SLAVERY. NOW I KNOW YTHAT YOU WILL SAY NIXONS SOUTHERN STRATEGY CRAP.

I AM ABSOLUTLY SICK AND TIRED OF ALL THE RACISIM ACCUSATIONS HOMOPHOVBIC ISLAMICPOPHBIC ETC. I AM A PROUD DEPLORABLE . THE RUST BELT STATES WHERE MY GRANDPRENTS ARE FROM AND REALLY WANT TO KEEP THERE JOBS WHICH IF HILLARY WON WOULD LWAVE. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.


I apologize dor sound harsh but in my state Trumps support is really known because of what HILLARY HAS DONE AND MALLOY IS FALLING OUR STATE. EVEN THOUGH HILLARY WON. THE WHITE MIDDLE CLASA VOTERS ARE THE BACKBONE TO THE EXONOMY. SO PLEASE ENOUGH WITH RACISIM STUFF.

[buffyfan145]

The reason the older whte male did not support Clunton is one word. JOBS. The Democrats can bitch and call Trump supporters like myself Racist Deplorable etc. When in fact they are being bigots. The rust belt states want a voice. They CAN NOT afford obamacare, THEY CAN NOT AFORD SCHOOLS. They can not loose there jobs because then they will end up homless. JUST STOP WITH THE FALSE ACUUSATIONS OF BIGOTRY ETC. REAL PEOPLE ARE EFFECTED BY THE FAILED OBAMA POLICES AND IT SIOWN. SO PLEAE STOP WITH THE RACIST BULLSHIT.

I have actually family that are racist and against anyone who is not a straight Christian and they are rejoicing this morning and it's why I've cut ties with a lot of them. I can't be a part of that and I just hope one day this country will finally unify even if it might not happen till I'm a senior citizen myself.

[AlreadyGone95]

I barely slept at all last night and went through every emotion you could think of from shock, to rage, to crippling fear, and now I'm experiencing as sadness I usually only feel when someone dies. I never expected this at all and I'm really sad to see what has happened. The deep racism, anti-women, anti-LGBT, and non-Christian hatred has come back out of the woodwork. Having relatives like this I knew it was there but didn't think it was still as massive as it is. Just sad to see how much more we have to work together to finally get through this. From what I saw most of the people who voted Trump were white, rural, over 40, Christian, and men. It's what I always thought that the older generations are still stuck in their ways and real change won't happen till those older generations are gone in the next couple decades. Most people my age (30s) and younger aren't like this. We grew up with a wide variety of races, religions, and women having equal rights and now the LGBT community getting their equal rights. We all want to unify and create a better future for us and our children and one day we'll get there but we're not there yet.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat as I really think we need to do away with the party system and change it to where people just run without it. Who knows if that will ever happen but all this party system does is create division when we need to unify. I just feel so bad for my friends and those that are minorities. This will affect them the most.

This sums it up for me. So much was riding on this election. I'm afraid that decades of hard work and pain and suffering will have been in vain. If anything, this election has divided us even more. I'm agnostic, but I live in predominantly Christian area. I used to think that despite their personal feelings, most of my Christian friends wouldn't mess with the years of progress the lgbt community has made. Boy, was I ever wrong! I've seen their true colors, and they scare me.

[travlnman2]

I have actually family that are racist and against anyone who is not a straight Christian and they are rejoicing this morning and it's why I've cut ties with a lot of them. I can't be a part of that and I just hope one day this country will finally unify even if it might not happen till I'm a senior citizen myself.

OKAY THAT SUCKS BUT IT DOESNT MEAN EVERYONE IS LIKE THAT. MY dad is an Italian immigrant who did EVERYTHING LEGALLY. I am SICK AND TIRED OF IT. I jave a muslim friend who has family in jordan. He is a Trump supporter. If Hillary won the redugees would come im and terrorists would disguise themselves as refugees . Also Illegal immigration would skyrocket and crime would go through the roof just ask Kate Steinle

[travlnman2]

This sums it up for me. So much was riding on this election. I'm afraid that decades of hard work and pain and suffering will have been in vain. If anything, this election has divided us even more. I'm agnostic, but I live in predominantly Christian area. I used to think that despite their personal feelings, most of my Christian friends wouldn't mess with the years of progress the lgbt community has made. Boy, was I ever wrong! I've seen their true colors, and they scare me.

Again the left hates anyone who is not a "Progressrive" I have been called a Racist Sexist mysioginstic Islamicphobic person by my OWN SISTER becuase I have not fallen for the Hillary BS

[travlnman2]

I apologize if i sound harsh to anyone. But I am very very personally effected by all the postions of Hillary Clinton. Coming from a sucesafull immigrant familly with a rags to riches story.

I agree with Walshfan to close this thread

[travlnman2]

Also I couldn't vote so It may seem odd that I am this engaged :)

I would do term limits for Congress so that no paety can controll all the time.

[travlnman2]

Here is my final post.

"Were supposed to believe that 57 million people are racist, misogynist, homophobic and whatever kind of ism you can think of. But maybe 57 million Americans saw through the smoke and mirrors and lies of the government and were ready for that change they could believe in that was promised to them back in 08."
Good job to everyone who supported either Trump or Clinton. You guys on this board have some good views. I am extreamly proud that we get to even choose a President anyway because my dad did not have this oppurtunity in Italy. To those who dislike Trump here is a bright sign. It's only 4 years. :) It is very hard for an incumbent party to win 3 times in a row. Cheers everyone. :grouphug::headbang::cheers:

[AlreadyGone95]

I apologize if i sound harsh to anyone. But I am very very personally effected by all the postions of Hillary Clinton. Coming from a sucesafull immigrant familly with a rags to riches story.

I agree with Walshfan to close this thread

I am very affected by Donald Trump's positions. I'm a part of the lgbt community, so Trump's victory, alongside the Republican Congress's victory, potentially means the erasure of my rights and oppression of us again. I'm also disabled and am receiving my dead father's Social Security to help me afford college. The republicans are always talking about free loaders and wanting to cut or even eliminate welfare, and that scares me.

If you don't want to come across as harsh, I would suggest not using all caps. I would also suggest proofreading your posts, so that your points are easier to understand. (If I remember correctly, you have some disabilities that may make this difficult, but it is something to think about.)

[NightMistBlue]

Some rather interesting stats: 33% of Latino men and 26% of Latino women voted for Trump, as well as 52% of white women. My local newspaper spoke to a Dominican (by birth) woman who voted for Trump. She said she believed he is not against Hispanics but rather "against chaos." We shall see.

On a much lighter note, at least we can be glad that the incredibly annoying Miley Cyrus, Samuel L. Jackson, Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer and Chelsea Handler will be leaving our country now that the unthinkable has happened: http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/305117-celebs-who-said-theyd-leave-country-if-trump-won

This is very much like Brexit, don't you think?

[Brooke]

Some rather interesting stats: 33% of Latino men and 26% of Latino women voted for Trump, as well as 52% of white women. My local newspaper spoke to a Dominican (by birth) woman who voted for Trump. She said she believed he is not against Hispanics but rather "against chaos." We shall see.

On a much lighter note, at least we can be glad that the incredibly annoying Miley Cyrus, Samuel L. Jackson, Lena Dunham, Amy Schumer and Chelsea Handler will be leaving our country now that the unthinkable has happened: http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/305117-celebs-who-said-theyd-leave-country-if-trump-won

This is very much like Brexit, don't you think?

I don't think Trump is against hispanics or latinos either. Illegal ones, yes.

I'm also glad these no it all celebrities will be packing up and leaving. If they need help, they can call me!

[Desperada]

Before you close the thread, could you please let me know have the Democrats or Republican's served three consecutive terms in office?

I believe that Trump had a better campaign slogan! I think that Barack Obama won the nomination in 2008 as he was new to main stream politics and that Trump won today because he is also the new kid in town! The Irish politicians and media were almost 100pc in favour of Hillary, and I am delighted that they got it wrong!!

Life has taught me that things never work out as bad or as good as what you fear or expect them to be.

I hope that Trump brings employment and prosperity to all American's.

[travlnman2]

One thing for sure is that all these pollesters need to find new jobs

[travlnman2]

Before you close the thread, could you please let me know have the Democrats or Republican's served three consecutive terms in office?

I believe that Trump had a better campaign slogan! I think that Barack Obama won the nomination in 2008 as he was new to main stream politics and that Trump won today because he is also the new kid in town! The Irish politicians and media were almost 100pc in favour of Hillary, and I am delighted that they got it wrong!!

Life has taught me that things never work out as bad or as good as what you fear or expect them to be.

I hope that Trump brings employment and prosperity to all American's.

FDR is the only president to ever serve more then 4 terms. I thought that was universall knowledge?

[shunlvswx]

Before you close the thread, could you please let me know have the Democrats or Republican's served three consecutive terms in office?

I believe that Trump had a better campaign slogan! I think that Barack Obama won the nomination in 2008 as he was new to main stream politics and that Trump won today because he is also the new kid in town! The Irish politicians and media were almost 100pc in favour of Hillary, and I am delighted that they got it wrong!!

Life has taught me that things never work out as bad or as good as what you fear or expect them to be.

I hope that Trump brings employment and prosperity to all American's.

I could be wrong, but I think the last time any party serve three consecutive terms was the 80s. Reagan served 2, Bush Sr served only one term. Then it flip flop after that. It was Clinton for two terms, Bush served 2, Obama served 2 and now we have another Republican president. If the trend continues this way, either Trump will get another term in 2020 or a Democrat will take over again either in 2020 or 2024. Of course if another Republican is better in either 2020 or 2024, it could the Reagan/Bush thing again from the 80s where it was back to back same party.

[shunlvswx]

FDR is the only president to ever serve more then 4 terms. I thought that was universall knowledge?

Oops. I think I misuderstood Desperada's question. I answered it wrong.

Right. FDR was the last president to serve more than two terms. To tell about it nobody has ever served more than two terms before FDR. They might have. I probably have to look it up. They made it a law where the president can only serve two consecutive terms. I don't think their has been a president where they came back to run again if they were in office for two terms. Grover Cleveland served twice, but not back to back. I think he's the only one who came back and ran again after they lost or took a break.

[WalshFan88]

My last comment in this thread:

I see a lot of Republicans gloating about control of the senate, house, and POTUS. And happy for the fact that it was too much Democratic control... Spare me.

Listen, changing one monopoly for the other isn't right. You just like it because it's your party and are biased as such. The people I see gloating about that, are the people who have no problem with an all Republican government, but noooooo, we can't have an all Democratic government. It's ironic and hypocritical at the same time. Ultimately, it should be a mix of both but changing one extreme to the other and being ok with it because it's your party is wrong...

[Desperada]

Thank you Shunlvxws and Travlnman2 for the informative answer's to my question.
I enjoyed reading this thread, I am not on social media and I appreciated reading opinions from America and else where.
It's over at last!
Very best wishes to all!

[Jonny Come Lately]

I don't really feel that comfortable about talking about politics on internet message boards, hence why I've not participated in this thread until now. However, TM has mentioned a point which I find very interesting, as it matches the situation observed in recent votes in the UK.

All I can say is that the result is that was... unexpected. I was genuinely stunned when I found out this morning.


One thing for sure is that all these pollesters need to find new jobs

This interests me because the pollsters over here also incorrectly predicted the results of the most recent UK general election and the EU referendum. Here are some more details for context:

1) 2015 UK general election
Pollsters: Predict the election will be too close to call between Labour and the Conservatives. Most likely outcomes would be either a minority government, or a Labour/Scottish Nationalist coalition.
Actual outcome: Conservatives win a small majority and actually gain seats and a larger share of the vote; Labour has nearly 100 parliamentary seats fewer.

2) 2016 EU referendum
Pollsters: Predict a victory for the Remain campaign
Actual outcome: Leave campaign wins

3) 2016 US presidential election
Pollsters: Predict Hillary Clinton (Democrat) to win (although it was fairly close in the end, she was consistently ahead in the polls for months)
Actual outcome: Donald Trump (Republican) wins

The pollsters have been wrong each time, and I think it's the same problem on every occasion. I think there is a consistent trend that the pollsters underestimate support for the more conservative/right-wing viewpoint, which on all three occasions has gone on to win. Some possible explanations for the result of the last general election (and therefore by extension, possibly the EU referendum and US election results) are offered here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015#Opinion_poll ing

[travlnman2]

I don't really feel that comfortable about talking about politics on internet message boards, hence why I've not participated in this thread until now. However, TM has mentioned a point which I find very interesting, as it matches the situation observed in recent votes in the UK.

All I can say is that the result is that was... unexpected. I was genuinely stunned when I found out this morning.



This interests me because the pollsters over here also incorrectly predicted the results of the most recent UK general election and the EU referendum. Here are some more details for context:

1) 2015 UK general election
Pollsters: Predict the election will be too close to call between Labour and the Conservatives. Most likely outcomes would be either a minority government, or a Labour/Scottish Nationalist coalition.
Actual outcome: Conservatives win a small majority and actually gain seats and a larger share of the vote; Labour has nearly 100 parliamentary seats fewer.

2) 2016 EU referendum
Pollsters: Predict a victory for the Remain campaign
Actual outcome: Leave campaign wins

3) 2016 US presidential election
Pollsters: Predict Hillary Clinton (Democrat) to win (although it was fairly close in the end, she was consistently ahead in the polls for months)
Actual outcome: Donald Trump (Republican) wins

The pollsters have been wrong each time, and I think it's the same problem on every occasion. I think there is a consistent trend that the pollsters underestimate support for the more conservative/right-wing viewpoint, which on all three occasions has gone on to win. Some possible explanations for the result of the last general election (and therefore by extension, possibly the EU referendum and US election results) are offered here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015#Opinion_poll ing

Take a look at our own non scientific poll.

[scottside]

The polls in the U.S. were off, but not beyond the margin of error. Going into Election Day, Hillary was up anywhere between 2-4 points nationwide and the margin of error was about 3%. She will end up winning the popular vote by about 1% in the end so that's really not out of line. Where the big shock came was in the Electoral College vote. Nobody expected Trump to win the Rust Best states and many didn't think he could win either North Carolina or Florida. Ohio, was pretty much a toss-up, but he may have had a slight advantage there.

In the end, it was the Silent Majority who came out and voted and there were people who were Trump supporters who wouldn't tell pollsters or ANYONE that because they didn't want to deal with the backlash.

Like it or not, Trump put states in play that Republicans just don't win. They don't complete in them at all. The map has now officially changed. Some of the Republican states in the South will gradually become more Democrat-leaning over time and I think some of the Midwest will become more receptive to Republicans if they put the time and energy to campaign there.

[travlnman2]

"Everyone is upset when their side loses but we must remember we are all really on the same side. We are not Democrats or Republicans first, we are American's first. This is an intermarriage scrimmage."
- President Obama

I am actually going to praise him. Very very good words.

[WalshFan88]

The polls in the U.S. were off, but not beyond the margin of error. Going into Election Day, Hillary was up anywhere between 2-4 points nationwide and the margin of error was about 3%. She will end up winning the popular vote by about 1% in the end so that's really not out of line. Where the big shock came was in the Electoral College vote. Nobody expected Trump to win the Rust Best states and many didn't think he could win either North Carolina or Florida. Ohio, was pretty much a toss-up, but he may have had a slight advantage there.

In the end, it was the Silent Majority who came out and voted and there were people who were Trump supporters who wouldn't tell pollsters or ANYONE that because they didn't want to deal with the backlash.

Like it or not, Trump put states in play that Republicans just don't win. They don't complete in them at all. The map has now officially changed. Some of the Republican states in the South will gradually become more Democrat-leaning over time and I think some of the Midwest will become more receptive to Republicans if they put the time and energy to campaign there.

I felt inclined to respond.

Actually, according to most she won the popular vote by quite a bit and it was mostly the Electoral College that put him in.

That said, I can sympathize with why they would be afraid to come out. He isn't someone I'd be proud to support. He stands for everything I'm against, and exemplifies everything I find wrong with some people. And obviously there are a lot of us that disagree.

I think the Donald Trump effect will forever leave a stain on interpersonal relationships. It tells bullies it's ok, however subconsciously it's said. It tells our youth that behaving that way is ok, after all our President did it.

To me he lost me when he mocked the disabled guy. That was the last straw. And he kept making more and more comments that disgusted me. As a disabled person, I could never support someone no matter what he promised to do for America. Call that selfish, but it's not just for me. It's for all folks. It's for disabled people who've been bullied. It's for women who've been sexually assaulted or mocked for their appearance. It's for those of color who have been the brunt of jokes and mistreatment and discrimination. It's for those in the LGBT community who feel it's two steps backward and promotes discrimination. It's for those of foreign countries who are slandered and called horrific names.

For them, I couldn't do it. For US in our (the above mentioned groups) shoes I couldn't do it. I cannot support a man who does that no matter what he promises (which are usually not backed up by real solutions anyway).

Yes, I'm a democrat but was excited at first that he wasn't a politician already with fresh ideas. Then I started catching on that he cares nothing about the little guy. And the fact he never cared. He screwed them over for personal gain. Then the slandering comments, the mocking, the asinine remarks. The empty promises. That ruined him for me. Not because I'm a democrat. But because he is a grade A top choice cut of jerk I've ever seen in my life. That is the reason.

If it had been "republican" vs Hillary or "democrat", I wouldn't be as nearly involved or outspoken. Instead I saw it as "subhuman mongrel" vs "I've made big mistakes and not perfect but want equality and fair treatment". It has nothing to do with politics. For me it's about the character of the person.

And I cannot and still not see him as presidential material. I will never afford him the respect I'd give even George W. Bush, who I was NOT a fan of. I won't.

[MortSahlFan]

I worked for Bernie Sanders, but it was rigged, and I stayed out of the mess, but think I prefer Trump only because I know all the right-winged garbage Clinton is responsible for (and more) so there's a 1% chance for Trump to do something meanwhile, but I think we are screwed on many levels and have been - it's not just this election.

[StephUK]

Very interesting thread. As I live in the UK I'm a "spectator" of this election.
The choice of Trump as President has certainly brought about a variety of reactions around the world.
Personally, I think the US electorate had a choice between 2 fairly poor candidates this time. Reading this thread, I think many of you feel the same.

On the subject of polls, I never trust them. I think the polls can be rigged to try to influence voters.

[zeldabjr]

since I've been on this board it's been an enjoyable political free place...I am disappointed that Nancy didn't choose to keep it that way...just my opinion...

[RudieCantFail]

From 2008 to 2012, the GOP only gained NC, Indiana, and the 1 electoral vote from Nebraska, and Obama won those in 2008. In 2016, the GOP got Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, and 1 electoral vote from Maine, and Obama won those in 2008 and 2012.

These 8 states and 2 partial electoral votes over the course of 8 years witnessed that Obama's policies did not help them and they felt screwed over, i.e. Obamacare being mandatory, premiums going up, not keeping your health plan. Racism and prejudice in other areas aren't the main reasons why they switched over. Although some of you may believe that Trump will screw them over too, they don't care at the moment. They want a change of pace. They are tired of a Democratic presidency because they feel that anything different would be better than a continuation of Obama/Democratic policies for the next 4 years, even if the candidate of choice is despicable. It's hard to convince voters that maintaining the status quo is better for them, if they had to live through 8 years of it already. Depending if Trump does a good job or not, they may switch Democratic again in 2020.

I honestly thought that this was the GOP's to lose once Trump got the nomination. Also, I'm not sure that this type of enthusiasm would have happened if Bush or Kasich got the nomination since they're moderate types.

To address the first part of WalshFan88's recent post, Hillary only won the popular vote by a margin of about 200k. In 2000, Gore won the popular vote by about a 500k margin. She didn't win by much in that aspect.